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  #26  
Old May 20, 2011, 10:36 AM
HereWeGo HereWeGo is offline
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Totally agree with you F6...
Its sort of became a blasphemy to even defend Israel.
The fact of the matter is that the number of Arab dead in Palestine by Israeli fire is not even 1/10th the number of people the Arabs massacred in Sudan yet no Arab ever talks abt it. No Arab would ever talk about how Saudis and Arab Emirates supported the Taliban regime of Afghanistan. How these countries treat their women. Also a little knows fact is that Israel was one of the first countries to recognise bangladesh after the liberation while for the Arabs we werent Muslim enough because we split the Paks...
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  #27  
Old May 20, 2011, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F6_Turbo
Alien - just with regards to the 1967 war, Israel struck the 1st military blow...but I think a definite case could be made for pre-emptive strike in the face of credible threat.

The arabs were doing plenty of sabre rattling, and troops were being massed in border regions.

@Isnaad - Israel is the one nation you don't friendly...how about our former 'brothers' in Pakistan? Lots of nasty countries out there, when you think about it.
I never said Israel is the only country I find disliking to. I find many other countries to be controversial more specifically the government that is. I have nothing much against Pakistani general mass but I don't like their governing body either. But since this is on Israel, I chose not to divert away from the topic itself. Peace.
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  #28  
Old May 20, 2011, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banglaguy
All people have the right to fight for what they believe in. You can call Hamas terrorist's, but one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Hamas also sets up schools, hospitals, runs the rafah borders. They actually stand up for palestine. Ahmad Yasin dies for his nation, as did Mujibur Rahman.
Top post.
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  #29  
Old May 20, 2011, 10:42 AM
HereWeGo HereWeGo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banglaguy
All people have the right to fight for what they believe in. You can call Hamas terrorist's, but one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Hamas also sets up schools, hospitals, runs the rafah borders. They actually stand up for palestine. Ahmad Yasin dies for his nation, as did Mujibur Rahman.
When u intentionally kill unarmed women and children than u are a terrorist. Our Mukti Bahini was no Hamas.....
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  #30  
Old May 20, 2011, 10:49 AM
Banglaguy Banglaguy is offline
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when your mother is killed by someone because of their race, I wouldn't care what the world calls me. I will do whatever I can to get them back. Hamas is isn't like Fatah, selling their beliefs. They fight for what they believe, and Muslim's believe is theirs.

Our Bhukti Bahini is someone who stood up to a near tyranny government that they were controlled after. Israel trap hamas like fish in a barrel, and shoot them, and you expect Palestinians to do nothing. . .

Even Obama today suggested that Israel goes back to the 1967 borders, but Israeli PM declined. Palestine (hamas including) have said they wouldn't mind that. But no, were going to Illegally trap you, kill you, and then complain when you send little rockets over the border, which have killed 25 people in 10 years. We'll complain to the UN that it's a breach of human rights, but we won't open the borders, or lift the blockade. Israel is the terror state, and it will not last long. . .
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  #31  
Old May 20, 2011, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HereWeGo
When u intentionally kill unarmed women and children than u are a terrorist. Our Mukti Bahini was no Hamas.....
Agreed. But are you 100 percent sure that Hamas kills unarmed women and children? I am not. So, I would rather not pass comments about them.
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  #32  
Old May 20, 2011, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HereWeGo
When u intentionally kill unarmed women and children than u are a terrorist. Our Mukti Bahini was no Hamas.....
Weren't Biharis targeted by Mukti Bahini
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  #33  
Old May 20, 2011, 10:55 AM
F6_Turbo F6_Turbo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banglaguy
All people have the right to fight for what they believe in. You can call Hamas terrorist's, but one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Hamas also sets up schools, hospitals, runs the rafah borders. They actually stand up for palestine. Ahmad Yasin dies for his nation, as did Mujibur Rahman.
Despite the cliche about terrorists and freedom fighters...you couldn't be further from the truth.

Everyone has a right to defend themselves and to fight for a cause, and if compelled to defend that cause through violence so be it....But your attempts to draw parallel between the Palestinian struggle and that of our nation are wide of the mark.

Under no circumstances should we excuse the bombing of civilians, homes, schools and buses. I shed no tears for those who die in armed conflict while a protagonist, but I will not let personal bias real or imagined excuse the murder of children, women and the elderly be they muslims, christians or yes Jews.

It is wonderful that you point out the social work Hamas does in the territories ala Hezbollah in Lebanon, which gains it sympathy, popularity, and credibility with the masses.

But that doesn't take away from suicide bombings in bus stops, cafes, buses, or malls.

I'm sure the Pakistani scum who were raping women and girls in this country, and murdering hundreds of thousands, also had families, and were well liked by their neighbors, and possibly even donated money to the local mosque every Jummah. But they were and are still, just that...SCUM.

I fear you're going to next tell me Al-Qaeda and its off shoots are also freedom fighters.
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  #34  
Old May 20, 2011, 10:59 AM
HereWeGo HereWeGo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nafi
Weren't Biharis targeted by Mukti Bahini
Yes, as collaborators with the Pakistani Army. They werent targetted just because they were Biharis. And again women and children were not targetted.
On the other hand, it is harder for Hamas to target the Israeli military but civilians make for an easy target. That is exactly what the suicide bombers end up doing when they bomb the busses and other public gathering places inside Tel--Aviv
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  #35  
Old May 20, 2011, 11:03 AM
Banglaguy Banglaguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F6_Turbo
Despite the cliche about terrorists and freedom fighters...you couldn't be further from the truth.

Everyone has a right to defend themselves and to fight for a cause, and if compelled to defend that cause through violence so be it....But your attempts to draw parallel between the Palestinian struggle and that of our nation are wide of the mark.

Under no circumstances should we excuse the bombing of civilians, homes, schools and buses. I shed no tears for those who die in armed conflict while a protagonist, but I will not let personal bias real or imagined to excuse the murder of children, women and the elderly be they muslims, christians or yes Jews.

It is wonderful that you point out the social work Hamas does in the territories ala Hezbollah in Lebanon, which gains it sympathy, popularity, and credibility with the masses.

But that doesn't take away from suicide bombings in bus stops, cafes, buses, or malls.

I'm sure the Pakistani scum who were raping women and girls in this country, and murdering hundreds of thousands, also had families, and were well liked by their neighbors, and possibly even donated money to the local mosque every Jummah. But they were and are still, just that...SCUM.

I fear you're going to next tell me Al-Qaeda and its off shoots are also freedom fighters.
Well actually, I don't believe any of these Islamic parties to be terrorist parties.

Hezbollah fought Israel clean and fair in 2006, and they held their own. They defended their people, and know have seats in the Lebanese government.

If Hamas military wing (Al-Qassam brigades) where not to fight, who would. It is comparable to those who died in Bangladesh. The world saw them as terrorists. But they fought for what they believe in and so did the Palestinians.

Al-Qaeda on the other hands attacks people who are in places that DIDN'T affect them, but now do. They had no right to do what they did to America, but that does not give anyone the right to go and kill a nation.

And Israel's do rape women in palestine, and if anyone's family was part of this, you would say fight back.
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  #36  
Old May 20, 2011, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HereWeGo
Totally agree with you F6...
Its sort of became a blasphemy to even defend Israel.
because defending Israel's Defense Forces and most of their gov policies is not much different from defending Hamas. Both are theocratic institutions with a lot innocent blood on their hands. Palestinians and Israelis are a different issue as they are people.

Quote:
I blame the impasse not on Israel, but on the Palestinians and the Arabs as a whole. Look back to what Israel was when it was created and what it is today, you take away the pathetic attempts to wipe 'Israel off the map' and there would already be a viable Palestinian state co-existing side by side.
F6, i had the same opinion from about 2002 onwards. however the report from the Sydney Morning Herald - a result of the wikileaks - has caused me to back track. In the past, I've had several posts which were quite "pro-Israel".

SENIOR Palestinian Authority officials are expected to face intense pressure to resign amid growing public anger over revelations that they were prepared to give away some of the Palestinians' most cherished claims to obtain a peace agreement with Israel.
Leaked documents chronicling the past decade of behind-the-scenes Middle East peace negotiations have shown the Palestinian leadership to be so eager for an agreement it was prepared to allow Israel to keep almost all Jewish settlements in occupied East Jerusalem.

The trove of more than 1600 documents, which have been leaked to the al-Jazeera news network and shared with The Guardian, indicate Israel rejected the unprecedented Palestinian offer as insufficient.

After reading the following, I've been skeptical of what the Israeli leadership has in mind. They have more to lose with peace than with the status quo. Just as a lasting peace would nullify the raison d'etre of groups like Hamas, it would also nip in the bud a lot of tangible benefits on the Israeli side as well who wants to put in the effort to gain nothing and actually lose a lot?
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  #37  
Old May 20, 2011, 11:08 AM
F6_Turbo F6_Turbo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isnaad
Agreed. But are you 100 percent sure that Hamas kills unarmed women and children? I am not. So, I would rather not pass comments about them.
Really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_R...#First_bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmuel_HaNavi_bus_bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dizengo...et_bus_bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beit_Lid_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin...uicide_bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patt_Junction_Bus_Bombing

Just a few public bombings to get you going...I haven't included any deaths due to rockets or other means.

I'm sure it would be equally as easy to pull up similar links for Israeli actions that have killed Palestinians, but lets not beat about the bush about uncertainties and being sure of guilt or innocence
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  #38  
Old May 20, 2011, 11:21 AM
F6_Turbo F6_Turbo is offline
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@al Furquaan - why do you think the Palestinian Authorities are so desperate now(or were a couple of years ago) to reach an agreement, when talks under Clinton in 2000 came oh so close to fruition, but for the issue of Jerusalem and the Right of Return?

Arafat was given a great deal, possibly the best deal the Palestinians will ever get, and he got greedy, he thought he had more capital than he did, and of course Osama and his crew came along with 9/11 a year later, and the world we know it has changed.

So of course they were desperate, and the Israelis now sensing weakness have become less reluctant to compromise.

Just as an aside, not sure how interested you are in this topic...but I don't think the state of Jordan should exist. I really feel Palestine should be Gaza + West Bank + what is modern day Jordan.

These Hashemite [] like the Sauds somehow lucked into nations....

Last edited by Zunaid; May 22, 2011 at 11:36 PM..
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  #39  
Old May 20, 2011, 11:25 AM
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^^^ Okay agreed Hamas kills innocent people. Now let us know of the killings of Israeli forces by providing similiar links will you? I guess then there will be no double standards created.
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  #40  
Old May 20, 2011, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F6_Turbo
@al Furquaan - Just as an aside, not sure how interested you are in this topic...but I don't think the state of Jordan should exist. I really feel Palestine should be Gaza + West Bank + what is modern day Jordan.

These Hashemite bastards like the Sauds somehow lucked into nations....
Why? Don't you think it was illegal from Israel's point of view to seize Palestine's land from Palestine at the first place?
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  #41  
Old May 20, 2011, 11:38 AM
F6_Turbo F6_Turbo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isnaad
^^^ Okay agreed Hamas kills innocent people. Now let us know of the killings of Israeli forces by providing similiar links will you? I guess then there will be no double standards created.
You ready for this...it will blow your young mind.

Israeli Jews care more about Palestinians, and their rights than Arabs do! How many arab initiatives do you think there are to keep track of Palestinian deaths?

Here is an all encompassing website, run by Israelis that speaks out for Palestinians, and documents just about every Human Rights abuse in the Territories.

http://www.btselem.org/english/stati...casualties.asp
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  #42  
Old May 20, 2011, 11:52 AM
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^^^ Okay so, doesn't it show that Palestine is suffering from Israel wayy more? I am just wanting to learn as you can see. Of course general mass of every country may be good. I didnt say anything bad about them either!
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  #43  
Old May 20, 2011, 12:40 PM
F6_Turbo F6_Turbo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isnaad
^^^ Okay so, doesn't it show that Palestine is suffering from Israel wayy more? I am just wanting to learn as you can see. Of course general mass of every country may be good. I didnt say anything bad about them either!

Yup, they have without doubt suffered more and without doubt there have been more casualties, but what I'm trying to say is, even 1 innocent death is too many, and we need to condemn unconditionally.

So we need to look at it like this....

Innocent Israelis getting killed by terrorists = BAD.

NOT

Innocent Israelis getting killed by terrorists = well, it was only 10 people, the Israelis last week killed 35.

That line of thinking doesn't help anyone, and stops both sides from looking at the other side as Human Beings.


*I don't pretend to know EVERYTHING with regards to this issue, and certain am not arrogant enough to think my opinions are more valid than that of others, so apologies if I come across that way. But I've traveled all my life, and lived amongst Jews/Christians/Muslims/Hindus/Sikhs/Atheists and in the end believe it or not, most people just want to get on with their lives.

The average Israeli/Jew doesn't wish of taking over the middle east and running the Palestinians into the sea, just as the average Arab/Muslim doesn't dream of wiping the Jews off the face of the map or destroying the west. I just find too many people paint themselves into one corner or the other, and then refuse to budge.

All of us have to be a lot more open minded about things.
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  #44  
Old May 20, 2011, 01:18 PM
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Very refreshing to read your posts F6_Turbo. I have a great deal of Israeli friends and colleagues who are young, liberal and secular and no way represent the ruling extreme right, who are increasingly a minority in Israeli and American politics. I have an invitation to attend a wedding in October in Tel Aviv and I might just take up on that offer. Unless there are more people to people contact, the ignorance and hatred, which are present on both sides can never be undermined.

You are spot on about greedy Arafat. Most Palestinians I know, quietly blame him for the deal that he left on the table. And, the Arabs in general are as much to blame for the Palestinian issue.

I just hope one day they can all live together in peace without hating each other without even knowing one another. Pipe dream ? Maybe..
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  #45  
Old May 20, 2011, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F6_Turbo
@al Furquaan - why do you think the Palestinian Authorities are so desperate now(or were a couple of years ago) to reach an agreement, when talks under Clinton in 2000 came oh so close to fruition, but for the issue of Jerusalem and the Right of Return?
according to the SMH, the cables go back "for the past decade". it doesn't mention how long the PA has been bending their back to get a deal, but implies for the past decade, i.e early 2001 given the report was published in Jan 2011.

the Clinton talks weren't close to a deal. if it was close, it woulda been sealed like the 1979 deal between Begin and Sadat. there are basically 4 parts to any settlement/dispute between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

1) Israel wants security, ie a demilitarized future Palestinian state, and will maintain sovereingt over land/water borders as well as airspace. Since this predicates a Palestinian state being set up first, I don't think the PA has stated their official position. My guess would be they would oppose it.

Bottom line is that Israel will never be nor will they be forced to be in a position to compromise their security. So this position is not up for negotiations.

2) Palestinians want a Right of Return to Israel of some odd millions of expats. This could be a negotiable position in that sense that Israel can maybe agree to accept some set percentage. I'm not saying its likely, but this is something that conceivably can be negotiated on, but the Palestinians should pretty much drop the issue.

3) West Bank settlements. This is probably the most negotiable point since even the Israelis realize that its untenable. Sharone government pulled out of Gaza some years back, and although WB communities continue to grow, I can see even a hardline Israeli government trading this for peace.

4) Jerusalem. Arabs want E Jerusalem. Jews want all of it. Again, this is a position I can see both parties budging on somewhat.

So that means that out of 4 sticking points, only 2 are negotiable. That means that the Clinton deal was ruling security, refugees, and Jerusalem in Israel's favor and only settlements in the PA's. 3-1 is not a good deal, even if its the best one the PA has gotten. I don't think anyone would have accepted such an unfair deal even if it was the fairest one seen in 50 years, so I won't really blame the PA for walking.

A truly fair deal should be 2-2 in favor of neither, against neither.
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  #46  
Old May 20, 2011, 01:36 PM
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Anyone who has done their research and looked back in History will know that Israel has no rights to exist, The country is made up of mostly European immigrants.
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  #47  
Old May 20, 2011, 01:43 PM
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I think the ego and distrust (developed from a long, checkered history) is the major obstacle towards peace.
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  #48  
Old May 20, 2011, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiplu
Anyone who has done their research and looked back in History will know that Israel has no rights to exist, The country is made up of mostly European immigrants.
In that case USA Canada also have no right to exist. They are made up of migrants too. The inuits ,Native Americans etc settled here first...
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  #49  
Old May 20, 2011, 02:52 PM
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Unbelievable!
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  #50  
Old May 20, 2011, 03:22 PM
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WOW at the amount of sucking up that is going on in this thread. just wow.
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