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  #76  
Old May 21, 2011, 02:35 AM
F6_Turbo F6_Turbo is offline
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This is not entirely accurate, because 'Palestine' didn't exist as Palestine pre 1947.

Now the UN plan, partition was wrong/unfair...Palestinians for some reason had to pay the price for the guilt and shame of Europe. Remember while the media portrays Muslims to be Jew killing savages, 6 million Jews died in Europe, on their doorstep, and if Hitler hadn't over stretched himself, they would have sat quietly by, and let the rest be incinerated too.

But the fact remains, it happened, and Israel was created...but look at present day Israel, and tell me who is to blame for most of that expansion?

The Arabs should have accepted Israel, and set about turning the other 50% of the land into Palestine, and a viable, strong, successful state. Instead they foolishly set about to take it all back...and look what that has brought for the Palestinian people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RazabQ
F6 - good arguments. Both parties have blood and blame in their hands. I just don't know if I'd put the onus of 1st move on the Palestinian/Arab governments though. Yes Hamas has to recognize Israel - they need to deal with reality, Israel is strong, democratic and viable nation. But surely, and I'll go all Spiderman on you, "with great power comes great responsibility" and as the assured holder of the upper hand, the Israeli government needs to be the "bigger man"?
I agree Israel by claiming to be a democratic and model state, has the greater responsibility, unfortunately, the Holocaust has bought them so much capital(without trying to be crass) that they refuse to look past that. Their every argument, every rationale goes back to the Holocaust.

So while you are 100% correct in saying, if Israel is all that it claims to be, they should act in a manner befitting such a nation, sadly ideals and rhetoric just about always lose out to reality.

It really is a tragedy, because we are a Palestinian state away from taking away one of the biggest recruiting tools for the terrorists, and also the animosity between muslims and others.
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  #77  
Old May 21, 2011, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F6_Turbo
Alien - just with regards to the 1967 war, Israel struck the 1st military blow...but I think a definite case could be made for pre-emptive strike in the face of credible threat.

The arabs were doing plenty of sabre rattling, and troops were being massed in border regions.
Oh so now its pre-emptive attack. And why did they occupy East Jerusalem and Golah Heights? As far as I know, they should you have gone completely defensive after knocking out Arab air forces instead of stealing more lands for Biblical Kingdom of David.

Either way your first assertion that Arabs jumped on them in 1967 was wrong since Israel fired the first shot, pre-emptive or otherwise.
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  #78  
Old May 21, 2011, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F6_Turbo


This is not entirely accurate, because 'Palestine' didn't exist as Palestine pre 1947.

Now the UN plan, partition was wrong/unfair...Palestinians for some reason had to pay the price for the guilt and shame of Europe. Remember while the media portrays Muslims to be Jew killing savages, 6 million Jews died in Europe, on their doorstep, and if Hitler hadn't over stretched himself, they would have sat quietly by, and let the rest be incinerated too.

Here I agree with you.

I personally recognise Israel's right to exist not because I buy into Biblical BS about God giving them the land coz from a reglion's point of view, God was kicked em out first before anyone else did.

I recognise them because its too late to dismantle a state. A country is not like a lego toy, you can't just dismantle it and pretend it never existed. Israel does and did so for 63 years (unfortunately). So they have no choice but to accept its right to exist.
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  #79  
Old May 21, 2011, 06:47 AM
Banglaguy Banglaguy is offline
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Palestine is not an actual country, but it was known as the brithish palestinian mandate. My views are pretty extreme, and I think armed resistance is the way forward. I take no further part in the discussion.
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  #80  
Old May 21, 2011, 07:36 AM
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Its funny Obama rebuking PA for walking away from talks when he himself cant get reach a common agreement with Netanyahu. Hows PA then supposed to reason with these nutters if he cant get anything out?
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  #81  
Old May 21, 2011, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien
Oh so now its pre-emptive attack. And why did they occupy East Jerusalem and Golah Heights? As far as I know, they should you have gone completely defensive after knocking out Arab air forces instead of stealing more lands for Biblical Kingdom of David.

Either way your first assertion that Arabs jumped on them in 1967 was wrong since Israel fired the first shot, pre-emptive or otherwise.
Alien, you can't knock the Israelis for taking the land. We attacked, we lost. Simple. One of the wars, forget which, was preemptive, and not GWBush "preemptive" either. Fate is not kind to many people. Off topic here, but Bangladeshis are actually extremely fortunate in this regard. How many other peoples have not only won a fully independent state but done it under a year? We were extremely lucky to have had our national aspirations coincide with the interests of the regional power. The kurds have Israel's backing and still don't have a state.

Back to the topic, its impossible to say who started it first. Israelies wanted a homeland, and sure, it doesn't matter to us whether its in Argentina, Germany, or Palestine. But on the flip side why should the Palestinians bear the full price for Europe's anti-semitism? Its a very tricky situation, where basically to give justice to one group, another group had to be evicted.
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  #82  
Old May 21, 2011, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunaid
BCF - you have posted two links. What are YOUR thoughts on the matter?
Posted via BC Mobile Edition (iPhone)
You mean my very OWN precious, personal and very UNIQUE stream of thoughts or opinions?

Well, I'm quite flattered but, at the same time, somewhat puzzled that you might be really interested in MY opinions over well articulated arguments by scholars/historians/experts (eg. Roger Garaudy) whom are profoundly more erudite on the subject matter than I. Since -and I assume- we are not being scored here for our debating ability or intelectual gymnastics prowess I prefer to go with more qualified and seemingly more logical and coherent opinions than mine. Is it always necessary to have an opinion when the reality is staring right at ya?
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  #83  
Old May 21, 2011, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanCricFan
You mean my very OWN precious, personal and very UNIQUE stream of thoughts or opinions?

Well, I'm quite flattered but, at the same time, somewhat puzzled that you might be really interested in MY opinions over well articulated arguments by scholars/historians/experts (eg. Roger Garaudy) whom are profoundly more erudite on the subject matter than I. Since -and I assume- we are not being scored here for our debating ability or intelectual gymnastics prowess I prefer to go with more qualified and seemingly more logical and coherent opinions than mine. Is it always necessary to have an opinion when the reality is staring right at ya?
Since when did middle east become so uncomplicated?
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  #84  
Old May 21, 2011, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HereWeGo
Since when did middle east become so uncomplicated?
Look- if someone wanted to make the simple art of boiling water to 100 degrees a complicated affair I'm sure they will find ways to do it.

We Bangladeshis fought with all we had when Pakistan wanted to impose Urdu as the state language. Why are we then indifferent to somebody else's land being usurped and dignity trampled with impugnity in front of our very eyes? The LEAST we can do is speaking out on behalf of the oppressed -wouldn't you agree?
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  #85  
Old May 21, 2011, 09:08 PM
kawser kawser is offline
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i want to know why the country israel was created in the 1st place.bcs b4 that as far as i know muslim and jews used to live peacefully there and also jews ppl were permited to pray in the mosque. ( my boss's frnd is a palastaini and he married a jews girl. i went to their house and i asked them how come u married each other and they answered me this way). u just cant establish a country in someone's land. palestainis must have let jews do that in the 1st place. then the israel should be thankful to palestine. but the reality is they are using white phosphorus against palestinies, bombing their mosques and hospitals. is it an american agenda to create problems in middle east. u never know. i really dont get this. if muslims and jews can live together without any trouble in uk why not in middle east? and yes all the jews are not jionist but all the jionists are jews. just like all the muslims are not jihadist but all the jihadists are muslims.
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  #86  
Old May 21, 2011, 09:28 PM
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^^^ That's all well, but why is Hitler on your avatar?
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  #87  
Old May 21, 2011, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
^^^ That's all well, but why is Hitler on your avatar?
just wanted to see if any1 recognize him. my gf (polish) gave me a biography of hitler and it was quite good u know. the command he had over his ppl is amazing.
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  #88  
Old May 21, 2011, 09:44 PM
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You'd have much better chance putting up your Polish gf's pic in your avy to see if anyone recognize her.
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  #89  
Old May 22, 2011, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeshanM
You'd have much better chance putting up your Polish gf's pic in your avy to see if anyone recognize her.
i know what u mean
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  #90  
Old May 22, 2011, 03:00 AM
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I echo Razabda....great arguments F6_Turbo. Great to have you here in the forum. =)
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  #91  
Old May 22, 2011, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanCricFan
The LEAST we can do is speaking out on behalf of the oppressed -wouldn't you agree?
Sad reality is that the underdogs in any conflict rarely gets the sympathy it deserves. Ironically, the best examples are Jews themselves. After 5000 years of persecution ranging from Rameses 2 to Hitler, there was little or no sympathy for them anywhere.

So when did this sudden infatuation with Israel start? Right after 1948 when for the first time they had a homeland, they had a formidable army. The hated Jew suddenly became God's chosen people who must be protected from persecution at any cost.

So until Palestinians do the same, there will never be any support for them.
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  #92  
Old May 22, 2011, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunaid
Hamas and others of that ilk do need to recognize Israel's right to exist.
Hamas maybe an extremist but is one of those breed that can be reasoned with (unlike AQ). Like I said they can be made to recognise Israel if they withdraw to 1967 line and/or via referendum. Problem is it is Israel that never ever bothered to reach out to Hamas. By straight away rejecting Hamas after it won the election 5 years ago, Israel made the biggest blunder. And now they are making another one by refusing to deal with Hamas-Fatah government.

Hamas will not go away and Fatah doesn't have the power or means (or Israel for that matter) to evict Hamas. Hence Hamas is there to stay, just like its other half in West Bank.

Any peace deal that will create a Palestinian state will include Gaza. Since it will include Gaza, Hamas will have to be part of this peace process. So Israel will have to sooner or later deal with Hamas when (if at all) it seriously pushes for a peace deal.

Hamas has nothing to give to Israel aside from recognition and laying down of arms. Israel has plenty to give out and start reaching out to Hamas. Maybe start off by recognizing Hamas' right in Gaza, lift the sea blockade and vacate a the smallest nearby settlement or something and see how Hamas reciprocates to that.

What I said is not rocket science and Israel's cynical leaders are well aware of it. If they really want peace, Hamas has to be included, if they don't all they have to do is make sure Hamas doesnt change its radical face so that will give the the life long excuse to maintain the status quo.

That is what Netanyahu wants, the status quo. This Hamas-Fatah reconciliation was his dream come true. Because now he can simply (and he did) go to Obama and tell the usual: Hamas is a terrorist organization, they do not recognize us, we will not deal with Hamas, negotiations are over".

What Is Israel supposed to get out of a pace deal? Nothing. They are secured, they have beaten Arabs 6 times. They have nukes + worlds most efficient military. No one will dare to attack Israel and no one has since Yom Kippur back in 70s. They don't need any of these Arab countries, they survived 63 years (and counting) without them. Their economic interest lies with Europe and US.

Hence there is absolutely nothing to be gained from Israeli perspective. A Palestinian state will completely stall all settlement activity, and pose a serious risk for Jerusalem to be split. Under the status quo, Israel gets to keep the whole lot. Netanyahu will literally be crucified by kippah wearing fanatics in Israel for sharing an inch of Jerusalem.

Its easy to blame Palestinians for all short coming after all they don't have mighty US or guilty Europe or anyone to stick up for them.
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  #93  
Old May 22, 2011, 11:09 PM
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http://www.dominionpaper.ca/articles/1861

Jews for Palestine
Remembering the Nakbah

by Lia Tarachansky
Members of Naturei Karta, an organization of orthodox and traditional jews, protest in Ottawa outside a fundraiser commemorating Israel's 60th anniversary. Photo: Stuart Neatby
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"The greatest contribution that I appreciate from the Dominion is that one feels the energies, the focus of a new generation of Canadians taking stock of Canadian reality as it is." --Jooneed Khan

On May 15, the State of Israel turned 60. Celebrations around the world were held to mark Israel's Day of Independence. Remarked also for different reasons, this day has made a global impact under its other title, "the Catastrophe," or Al Nakbah in Arabic. It is mourned as a day that commemorates the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, as a result of which Israel is today a Jewish majority state.

Resistance to these celebrations has also taken place across North America under a campaign entitled “No Time To Celebrate: Jews Remember the Nakbah.” This activism demonstrates a growing Jewish presence within the movement to oppose Israeli policies, the military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and the ongoing oppression of Palestinians. In Canada, this presence was strongly felt on March 29 when over a hundred representatives of various organizations joined at the Alliance of Concerned Jewish Canadian's (ACJC) conference. The aim of the conference was to create an effective and justice-oriented strategy for future collaboration of jews critical of Israel's policies.

A jewish stance in solidarity with Palestinians is particularly significant, given recent remarks by Prime Minister Stephen Harper. Reminding the world of the Holocaust, Harper announced that Israel was "threatened by those groups and regimes who deny to this day its right to exist." Despite Israel’s refusal to acknowledge a Palestinian state, in deed if not in word, Harper further emphasized his alliance with the State of Israel by calling it "one of the most successful countries on earth... Israel truly is the ‘miracle in the desert.’”

"The source of Israel's strength and success,” continued Harper, “is its commitment to the universal values of all civilized peoples: freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law." Post-Holocaust Jewish settlers in Israel, according to the Prime Minister, have "led the world back to the light."

Such flamboyant support stands in stark contrast to Canada's historical record of siding with the majority of the world, whose national representatives have consistently voted at the UN General Assembly for an end to Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.

During a teach-in held in Ottawa days before the anniversary of the Nakbah, Diana Ralph, Coordinator of the ACJC conference, reduced much of Harper's statements to little more than myths. Ralph broke down the logic in Harper’s speech, which proposed that all criticism of Israel was equated with anti-Semitism, that Israel was the only democracy in the Middle East, and that Arab and Jewish people hate each other.

“If this is a beacon of light onto nations,” said Ralph, referring to Harper’s position on Israel's settlers, “I think we need to turn out the lights."

Ralph's support for human rights in the Middle East went hand in hand with the outcome of the historic ACJC conference. The ACJC body has made a remarkable move in declaring its support for "a properly negotiated peace between the Israeli and Palestinian people" and opposing "any attempt by the Israeli government to impose its own solutions on the Palestinians."

The organization further recognizes the world's repeated calls for Israel to respect international law, particularly the 2004 International Court of Justice's ruling on post-1967 affairs in the region. The ICJ ruled that the so-called “Annexation Wall,” as well as the West Bank settlements, were illegal and demanded Israel pay reparation for "all damage caused by the construction of the wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, includ[ing] in and around East Jerusalem."

Such international decisions have been amplified worldwide by opposition to the celebrations of Israel's 60th anniversary. In San Francisco, 20 Jewish activists were arrested while protesting their local community centre's celebrations of Israel@60. In New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Toronto, and dozens of other cities across the continent, organizers put together street theatre shows, die-ins, educational and media events, mournful vigils, and peaceful disruptions, all in solidarity with Palestine.

Around 70 Israelis, Palestinians, Jewish-Canadians, and allies attend a protest outside of the National Arts Centre in Ottawa on May 20th Photo: Ryan Davies

In Canada’s capital, Not In Our Name (NION): Jews Against Israel's Wars, which represents pro-justice Jewish voices in the Ottawa community, has linked with many others to form what has become the Ottawa Palestine Solidarity Network (OPSN). On May 8, over 70 community members and activists joined to mourn outside the Ottawa Civic Centre where the local Israel@60 celebration took place. Continuing their visible support for understanding the real history of Israel/Palestine, OPSN held a teach-in on May 18 that posed the question of whether the 60th anniversary of the State's inception was indeed something to celebrate.

Samah Sabawi, a Palestinian refugee, presented the history and fallout of the 1948 Nakbah. She spoke of the 500 villages that were destroyed in the lead-up and in the midst of the 1948 War of Independence, a war that displaced 750,000 refugees. Today, the West Bank hosts over 500 checkpoints; the Israeli State controls all Palestinian access to water, land, and employment; and an “Annexation Wall” now segregates communities from each other. In places such as Qualqilia the wall completely surrounds entire villages, while the checkpoints reinforce a segregation system. Israeli-only settlements are interspersed in the West Bank among Palestinian farms, connected to one another and Israel-proper by Israeli-only roads which are heavily protected by walls, fences, and armed soldiers. Effectively, Sabawi explained, the Nakbah Catastrophe has never ended.

Ralph followed Sabawi's short history with a talk entitled "Which Side Are You On?" which emphasized the importance for Jews to stand for justice in Palestine. Ralph’s message was further amplified by Rabbi Dovid Feldman, who drew from the Old Testament to argue that traditional Judaism rejects the idea of Zionism. The philosophy of zionism, to which the creation of the State of Israel has been attributed has, according to Feldman, been countered by Jewish leaders since its very inception at the end of the 19th century. Rejecting the celebrations of Israeli Statehood, Feldman stated, "Every Israeli Independence Day, we have a day of fasting. It is a day of mourning."

Concluding the teach-in, Mazen Masri, a member of the Coalition Against Israeli Apartheid and a PhD candidate at York University, spoke about the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) campaign.

Arising from Palestinian civil society, the BDS campaign began in the summer of 2005. The campaign calls for tactics similar to those which contributed to the official end of South African apartheid to be applied to Israel. The BDS campaign calls for the boycott of Israeli businesses by individuals, the divestment of international corporations from the Israeli economy, and the enforcement of sanctions by governments against the State of Israel until its apartheid policies end.

Days later, on May 20, a fundraiser held at the National Arts Centre (NAC) was sponsored by the Jewish National Fund and hosted by Israeli Ambassador to Canada Alan Baker, who was also the guest of honour. Baker has been under strict <="" a=""> in recent weeks after making remarks that have been called discriminatory and racist against Muslim and Arab people. Baker argued that Canada should limit immigration of Muslim people on that grounds that they may alter Canadian demographics as well as Canada's overt support for Israel. In response, almost a hundred protestors crowded the doors of the NAC, including over twenty Haredi religious Jews as well as dozens of Israelis, secular Jews, Palestinians, and other supporters. A mock check-point was constructed and activists, dressed as soldiers, with the inscription "Israel Offense Forces" attached to their uniforms, controlled access to the entrance. Organizers billed this as a mild demonstration of the daily humiliation and delay to which Palestinians are subjugated.

In Toronto, on Sunday May 25, the UJA Federation’s annual ‘Walk with Israel’ was held. Advertised as a fundraiser for “programs for children and youth in Israel with a specific focus on those in Sderot and the Western Negev,” the event drew thousands of participants as well as approximately three dozen protesters. Holding a silent vigil on the outskirts of the Walk, the protestors were met with discriminatory remarks such as “go back to Jordan.” Some parents even stopped to demonstrate to their children that the men and women who were dressed in black to commemorate the Nakbah, were forever Israel’s enemy.

“I would kill another 800,000 of you!” one man yelled, referring to the 1948 ethnic cleansing.

In Israel/Palestine, 21,915 black balloons were released over Jerusalem to represent the number of days since the beginning of the Nakbah. Spearheaded by the Badil Resource Centre in Ramallah, the idea was part of an international campaign called "Justice is the Key to Tomorrow." The organization's website explains the reasons for which thousands worldwide have mobilized in solidarity with the people of Palestine.

"How can you celebrate?" the site asks. "The establishment of the State of Israel sixty years ago was a settler-colonial project that systematically and violently uprooted more than 750 thousand Palestinian Arabs from their lands and homes... These celebrations, by definition, insult our history, violate our rights, and deepen our oppression. They also render the path to justice, freedom, equality, and sustainable peace based on international law longer than ever before."
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  #94  
Old May 22, 2011, 11:14 PM
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very sensible and accurate post by Alien
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  #95  
Old May 22, 2011, 11:31 PM
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the problem is we r counting who is killing more and blaming each other but the reality is both sides are killers and hve blood of innocent ppl in their hands. god must be looking down at us and thinking wht have i done. wht israel is doin is simplyt genocide. but what hamas is doing is not right either.
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  #96  
Old May 22, 2011, 11:40 PM
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Without mentioning names, it's not surprising to see that people who are religiously biased would OBVIOUSLY be pro-Palestinian. Although I am not much of a political person, but there are many unfair, unjust activities going around in many parts of Africa. Rwanda with Hutus and Tutsis, Darfur are two examples. But that doesn't seem to stir many-a-hearts like the Palestine issues do to the Bangladeshis. And it IS funny that many Bangladeshis can't even spell Israel yet they become very flagrant about the issue.

Again, this should not be a religious issue but more of an issue of justice, humanity and getting along with each other. Earlier I was thinking a hypothetical situation ie if America has the military power to take over the world. But what would it fruit anyway? Then they'd be the loners of the world.... It's the diversity that makes us live.

I haven't met many Jewish people -possibly the East Coasters have more experience by mingling with Jewish folks in everyday life- so I am not sure about the mainstream views of that group. So I am ambivalent and my sympathies are with both parties: Palestinian and Israelis. What I would NOT be blindly is pro-Palestinian by funneling in news from the ones that I'd like to hear with my own prejudicial filter.

I am in no position to make informed decisions like F6-turbo because of the lack of knowledge and news.
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Old May 22, 2011, 11:53 PM
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I am not sure that being pro-Palestine and also seeing the rights of Israelis (Jews) are mutually exclusive. I know of many devout Muslims who also have opinions similar to those of F6 or myself. DO also remember, the Palestinian issue transcends religion for Palestinians include Muslims as well as Christians and both groups are having their rights trampled.

There are extremists from both sides who do not wish to see peace. Do recall that ex-PM Begin used to lead a terrorist groups which bombed civilian places. Do also recall that the Fatah was once termed a terrorist group.
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  #98  
Old May 22, 2011, 11:57 PM
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I really hope I can be as informed and rational as Zunaid uncle one day.
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  #99  
Old May 23, 2011, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunaid
I am not sure that being pro-Palestine and also seeing the rights of Israelis (Jews) are mutually exclusive. I know of many devout Muslims who also have opinions similar to those of F6 or myself. DO also remember, the Palestinian issue transcends religion for Palestinians include Muslims as well as Christians and both groups are having their rights trampled.

There are extremists from both sides who do not wish to see peace. Do recall that ex-PM Begin used to lead a terrorist groups which bombed civilian places. Do also recall that the Fatah was once termed a terrorist group.
Doc, what would you suggest an unbiased source of news regarding this issue? US media seem to have a very strong pro-Israeli stance.
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Old May 23, 2011, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeshanM
Doc, what would you suggest an unbiased source of news regarding this issue? US media seem to have a very strong pro-Israeli stance.
I'm not sure there is such a beast. You just read and read and read and make up your own mind based on certain facts no one disputes. Use those as anchor points and use your unbiased thought processes to build a scaffold of your own views.
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