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  #51  
Old March 12, 2011, 12:52 PM
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shaad shaad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanArafath
Hi Coach,

Riyad is tall and strong young man. He played well against England according to match situation but why he is not really playing the lofted shots he could play by standing the ground and lofted over the bowlers head. Like Shafiul hit one ball very hard back pass the bowler Anderson and I would like to see those kind of shots from Riyad as well.
Probably because unless you hit them just right, lofted shots run the risk of ending up in the hands of a fielder. Why bother taking unnecessary risks when the RRR was easily achievable and we really didn't have any wickets to spare?
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  #52  
Old March 12, 2011, 01:21 PM
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Coach SSSSSMMMMMIIIILLLLEEEE....BD couldnt loose yesterday..just knew it....i have beenp praying for this day for the last one year,when we lost the england series..Knew Allah would return us for the hard work we put all these times,He always rewards for hardwork and sincerity.We couldnt loose yesterday..Smile..
Dont worry coach,the fans will also start believing..yesterday..we just increased the club..

A big hug for the boys...and to all u guys...SMILE

Last edited by Robi; March 12, 2011 at 02:10 PM..
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  #53  
Old March 12, 2011, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beamer
Gotta agree with Coach here. We played to the situation yesterday all the way up to the Imrul dismissal. Then, came the superb deliveries, and there in nothing you can do about it. But, the most important thing that happened was the way Riyad-Shafiul assessed the situation and went about their way. The RR was never an issue and I was happy that they identified that correctly. Once Shafi took it to Swann on that over, the pressure was squarely back on England again. Sure, Anderson helped, but in previous years we would have perished even when the asking rate wasn't a factor. We won and that's what its all about. The PP wasn't an issue either. RR was always good, and during the last partnership, England had their fielders up anyway. So, we had an extended PP.

However, one thing is pretty clear to me, and that is our batting limitations. We have to bowl/field out of our skins every game to keep the opponents total within manageable target. If we can do that, I think we are always within a chance. In that sense, batting second is probably more preferable, since we would know the target at hand. Bowling in our conditions are our strength, and anything below 250 is manageable target. We get a good start, one decent partnership in the middle, and we should be able to pull it through with everybody else chipping in. As long as the batting remains a two man show ( Tamim_Sakib ), we will have a hard time chasing anything above 260, and 300 is probably still out of reach. Batting first and putting a big score is still tricky for us with the players that we have right now. Then, you have to take advantage of batting PP, good starts, big partnerships- all the factors that has to go in to construct a big innings. I think we are far away from all that still.

Bowl first. Bowl and field with a purpose. Restrict the opposition below 240. Put the pressure on them. Take the asking rate out of equation and we will win more than our share. That's where our one day team stands as of now. The day, when at least one of our top five on a consistent basis can score a ton every game ( or two big fifties ) will be the day we can think of winning from any situation.
+ 1
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  #54  
Old March 12, 2011, 02:50 PM
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BanCricFan BanCricFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Pont
Seeing the match is one thing.. understanding what you are seeing is something else.


....That's what I saw... not sure what you were looking at.
I hope I saw the match you saw, Ian.

Honestly speaking, us fans might not have the perfect understanding of the game as any professionals but a great many of us are not complete novices, either. We exist, therefore, you (from a-completely-self-important-obssessed-fans perspective, of course).

Otherwise, I, for one, wouldn't have spent best part of 30 years playing, closely following, studying and appreciating the many beautiful and striking nuances of this wonderful game we call Cricket. Yes, us Fans even deserves a benefit of doubt, sometimes. Many of us, through thick and thin, are seeing the 'coming of age' of Bangladesh Cricket. And, we want to see this team become one of the very best out there in time, Insha Allah. And, to be amongst the finests we always have to improve. Mediocracy cannot be an option for our longterm goal. Hence, the need for self-criticism/evaluation as we go along --which is, of course, not just limited to Cricket.

An adventurous outlook and pragmatism are not always at the opposite spectrum. Otherwise, there would be no win for Ireland against England and Canada against Bangladesh. Should we not play the opposition on the day rather than what rank they have in the table? Similar to a batsman playing the ball not the bowler.

Thanks...and congrats for the incredible win, last night. Although, we always appreciate a good effort regardless of the final outcome.
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Last edited by BanCricFan; March 12, 2011 at 02:55 PM..
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  #55  
Old March 12, 2011, 07:33 PM
BanArafath BanArafath is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaad
Probably because unless you hit them just right, lofted shots run the risk of ending up in the hands of a fielder. Why bother taking unnecessary risks when the RRR was easily achievable and we really didn't have any wickets to spare?
I did mention Riyad played according to the condition against England but I was wondering as a number 7 batsman Riyad should practice playing lofted shot which necessary during power play. I am surprised to see tbin the first match against India and it was ideal condition for him to come play a good knock in power play.

If you see the wining shot he scored against England , he moved forward and guided the ball through the cover pint. That shot wasn't necessary if he is confident enough to stand the ground, go behind the line of the ball and play the lofted shot over bowlers head or he can play down the ground back pass the bowler.

Last edited by BanArafath; March 13, 2011 at 12:55 PM..
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  #56  
Old March 12, 2011, 07:49 PM
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Ian Pont Ian Pont is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanCricFan
I hope I saw the match you saw, Ian.

Honestly speaking, us fans might not have the perfect understanding of the game as any professionals but a great many of us are not complete novices, either. We exist, therefore, you (from a-completely-self-important-obssessed-fans perspective, of course).

Otherwise, I, for one, wouldn't have spent best part of 30 years playing, closely following, studying and appreciating the many beautiful and striking nuances of this wonderful game we call Cricket. Yes, us Fans even deserves a benefit of doubt, sometimes. Many of us, through thick and thin, are seeing the 'coming of age' of Bangladesh Cricket. And, we want to see this team become one of the very best out there in time, Insha Allah. And, to be amongst the finests we always have to improve. Mediocracy cannot be an option for our longterm goal. Hence, the need for self-criticism/evaluation as we go along --which is, of course, not just limited to Cricket.

An adventurous outlook and pragmatism are not always at the opposite spectrum. Otherwise, there would be no win for Ireland against England and Canada against Bangladesh. Should we not play the opposition on the day rather than what rank they have in the table? Similar to a batsman playing the ball not the bowler.

Thanks...and congrats for the incredible win, last night. Although, we always appreciate a good effort regardless of the final outcome.
And you are entitled to make opinions known, as is everyone whether they understand cricket or not.

A coaches job is to deliver understanding and knowledge to players whilst removing emotion. Skills are developed through training, repetition and admission of mistakes that then get corrected. That sentence is very important because in cricket not every player is able to do those things.

Emotion had no place in skill development because skill development is process based. That's why when the 'emotional' card is played by fans or players it tends to lead to an EXCUSE CULTURE. And emotions lead to perceptions - the 'belief' that 'such and such' is true or the way forward when in fact logic and processes (the things that are needed for development) are ignored.

So this is not about giving fans the benefit of the doubt. It is understanding why players do such a thing or don't do such a thing. When working alongside and with our players every day you get to understand why they do things and don't do them.

I want to share with you one more thing: the "Five logical WHY's". I believe that to get to the truth of something you ask the question 'why' five times to find it, because in life we layer the truth with excuses and deflections. Here's an example of a made-up schoolboy coach to illustrate a point and show you how the process works....

Why isn't Player A scoring enough runs? Answer: he isn't good enough
Why isn't he good enough? Answer: he cannot hit the ball properly
Why can't he hit the ball properly? Answer: he hasn't been shown how to
Why hasn't he been shown how to? Answer: the coach hasn't shown him
Why hasn't the coach shown him? Answer: the coach has given up teaching the basics

So in this made up example, Player A wasn't doing well enough because his coach has stopped working with him on the things that would make him better: the basics.

If you applied this sort of thinking to the issues to cricket you get to some of the factors behind how to develop the game and players you coach.

It is all about HOW you then do something because 'HOW' is the solution. Fans understandably just regurgitate the scorebook or statistics but not the reasons behind those statistics. This is what you pay a coach for. Just saying "Player A should rotate the strike more", or "Player B should be able to defend world class wicket-taking deliveries" is not coaching. And saying it does not make the Player A or B better.

We all mask our real fears under layers of excuses and emotions. The secret is to confront them, correct them and move forward....
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Last edited by Ian Pont; March 12, 2011 at 08:08 PM.. Reason: Zunaid not being clear about my example
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  #57  
Old March 12, 2011, 07:56 PM
Zunaid Zunaid is offline
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That just begs the 6th why.
Why has the coach given up teaching the basics?

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  #58  
Old March 12, 2011, 07:58 PM
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Ian Pont Ian Pont is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunaid
That just begs the 6th why.
Why has the coach given up teaching the basics?

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In this example, it was made up so I don't know..hahahaha.

As I mentioned above, the solution question is what are you going to do about it or how is it corrected?
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  #59  
Old March 12, 2011, 08:09 PM
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mar umpire mar umpire is offline
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Ian welcome to the world of the "cricket fan" in bangladesh. Unfortunately there is a culture of looking for scapegoats and the only solution some bangladeshis see is via sacking or replacing. As a nation we tend to be impatient and quick to jump to conclusions.

I am a fan however I have also had experience playing district cricket (the same team from which Jacob Oram originated-albeit in the junior years) in New Zealand and I think fans are yet to grasp the nuances of coaching or indeed how a player and coach inter-relate. We blame coaches way too much in my opinion-I'm sure you would have noted from the level of Siddons bashing on the forum. The coach can instruct and point out the player's errors but if the player doesn't act on them then what more can the coach do? As a young team I guess the bangladeshi players will tend to repeat mistakes but one thing I have noticed over the last couple of years is that we finally have a core nucleus of players whether it is pacers, spinners and opening batsmen on which we can build a future team.

There is no point in chopping and changing, there are many calls for shahriar nafees, however from an opening batsman's point of view(I was one) or indeed a first drop(who should technically be in my opinion the best batsman in the team) Nafees is technically very weak and plays away from the body too much and will be susceptible against decent pace attacks particularly from the test playing nations. Hence I don't really see the point of bringing in Nafees-Junaid has been unlucky with his two run outs(and lazy running against ireland) but technically he hasn't looked that bad and in the middle of the world cup I think it would be very unwise to chop and change.

I think instead fans complaining about coaches and their performances, it would be more prudent to ask the players themselves and see how they believe the coaches are going. After all we as fans only see it from a television screen and certainly not from the viewpoint of the dressing room.

It's also important to point out menatlly our players are still a bit nervy hence the headless chicken runs but our players are also developing the nerve for tight games and in 5 years time I hope bangladesh put in more consistent performances. If we yell and scream and put even more pressure than they can cope with, it will be a recipe for disaster
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  #60  
Old March 12, 2011, 08:09 PM
Zunaid Zunaid is offline
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But you do bring a very important issue here, the "layers of excuses and emotions". I think this is an important topic. We had touched on this briefly in the other thread on the topic of professionalism. Fans are fans because they are driven by their emotions. You cannot be dispassionate and still be a fan. But I digress - the batting display we saw after the Windies debacle was a sea change in application and attitude barring a few hiccups. I am with the coach on this one.

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  #61  
Old March 12, 2011, 08:12 PM
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Thanks Ian,
I believe some of the members in the forum hasnt been really courteous towards your contribution to the team and your input to this forum. Apolgies for those individuals and if I were you, I just would not answer to those remarks and waste precious time and energy.

I do agree with everything you mentioned on the opening post, however I do feel that Rock has been below par since NZ series and do you think WC is the right tournament to keep on experimenting with him when we have a good reserve in SNafees? I understand Rock is extremely liked by our head coach and he is an amazing feilder but may be it is wise to use him as a 12th man rather than a batsman. Would you agree?
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  #62  
Old March 12, 2011, 08:17 PM
Zunaid Zunaid is offline
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Herewego - hard to do justice to my thoughts via phone tapoing as I am on the road, and I will use the lazy excuse of just asking to read the post 2 above. I agree about having a core nucleus and building that up for the future. You speak of experimentations but you are asking for more of the same. Now is not the time.

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  #63  
Old March 12, 2011, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mar umpire
Ian welcome to the world of the "cricket fan" in bangladesh. Unfortunately there is a culture of looking for scapegoats and the only solution some bangladeshis see is via sacking or replacing. As a nation we tend to be impatient and quick to jump to conclusions.
Why blame Bangladesh when it happens in every parts of the world? I don't see anything less in western countries.
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  #64  
Old March 12, 2011, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunaid
Herewego - hard to do justice to my thoughts via phone tapoing as I am on the road, and I will use the lazy excuse of just asking to read the post 2 above. I agree about having a core nucleus and building that up for the future. You speak of experimentations but you are asking for more of the same. Now is not the time.

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I am not going to play with words here since I suck at that anyways. So to put it in perspective, I just think it is not wise to be playing the same player who has been failing with the bat for a few months now specially when we have a replacement who would not effect the team combination. World cup is not the time for playing an out of form player hoping that he would come good. Just seeing the way SNafees plays spin bowling, I think he can really do well as a middle order batsman and while suggesting SNafees to bat at a position where he was never tried might sound like an experiment but it is more to do with past observations that suggest that he would pass with flying colours.

Plus playing an opening batsmen in the middle order is less of an experiment than playing a middle order as a opening bat.
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  #65  
Old March 12, 2011, 08:52 PM
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It happens in western countries too, and I am not blaming bangladesh. Whereas in the west people call for heads to roll after an extended period of poor showing relative to past performances we call for heads to roll even after wins-as the saying goes if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Indeed after the first match many people called for shafiul's head-now look at the results. Head rollign is not the only option for one poor performance.

I am not attacking anyone or anyone's opinions however I do think we should have more patience. Gary Kirsten is a good coach but his role in a team like India's will be different to Ian, Julien and Jamie's role with bangladesh.

Our infrastructure regarding grounds at the grass roots level is quite poor-that is not our fault, but now that we have test status we have to concentrate more at the grass roots level to allow the next generation of bangladeshi cricketer's the opportunity to develop. Street cricket is good but we also need grounds available for kids to develop from an early age, batting on different tracks and even pacy artificial wickets.

The question always arises how NZ in the past has performed beyond expectation despite their small population-even at under 14-15s levels they have turf pitches, bowling machines and indoor facilities for the players at district level. Younger kids in bangladesh do not have access to such large fields and facilities-it is to be expected we will develop slightly slower. What is also important to mention is that the other nations over the years have progressed so much in cricket with the advent of 20-20(just the power hitting component) that Bangladesh will appear to have more deficiencies than they actually do as an 11 year old fledgeling test nation.

We cannot expect our player pools to match pakistan, england, india, aust etc We need to have patience, stick with the players. The coaches see things in the nets which we don't see, deficiencies in certain palyers which we don't see. Ashraful had come in for mahmudullah and his perfromance was no surpise-he averages in the 20s in first class level as well. Indeed replacement is often not the solution but asssisting and working through the players' problems over the years is the way to go. It will take years, one can't expect a drastic change over the course of a couple of years. Against the likes of Roach and co Junaid was the best batsman and I don't think many other batsmen outside the eleven have this extra factor.

I think it is a bit rich of the criticism that's coming especially from the like of Mr Khaled Mahmud or Raquibul Hasan Sr who would be lucky to play club level in australia, the 58 was dismal no doubt, but Bangladesh isn't the only team, better teams have had their off days and scored lower. It takes 10 good balls to dismiss a team and unfortunately for bangladesh they faced about 5 within the first 15 overs against the West Indies.

Last edited by mar umpire; March 12, 2011 at 09:01 PM..
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  #66  
Old March 12, 2011, 08:53 PM
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Ian,

When I follow Bangladesh batting I feel that the current team will fail to put a score of 250+ on board. I don't remember when was the last time we did that batting first. The number of singles and twos Bangladesh scores is very less than other top level teams. That is what concerns me about our batting. Based on the current status of the team, how many years do you think it will take Bangladesh to reach that level?

I have to commend you for explaining the batting power play situation. I understand Bangladesh is not yet matured enough to utilize the batting power play the way it should be used to batsmen advantage. Right now even teams like India and England have struggled or rather have failed miserably with the batting power play.
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  #67  
Old March 12, 2011, 08:59 PM
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Thank you Mr. Ian Pont once again for spending your invaluable time with us and teaching cricket both on and off the field
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  #68  
Old March 12, 2011, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Pont
1. We did not collapse due to stupid shots. Mushy, Roq and Naeem got world-class deliveries that undid them. Nothing they could have done about any of them - truly super deliveries.
I thought Tamim out was also a world class delivery by Tim Bresnan.
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  #69  
Old March 12, 2011, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farhad
Actually, I dont think people are being tough here at all... And I'm one of the optimists in this forum.

We can't see all of our batsmen averaging well under 30 (save for Tamim) in this tournament and not raise an alarm. The batsmen are NOT doing well. That cannot be argued.

al Furqaan, this board has been nothing but hospitable to Ian, and I don't think its fair to call them a tough bunch because a few (note the underline) have raised objections - In a very nonconfrontational manner manner might I add.
hey, i've disagreed on things with Coach Pont before (batting PP issue from India match)...and guess what? It looks like he was right and I was wrong. Most of the top teams have struggled in the batting PP. SA and India, the two strongest batting lineups have goofed it up in games they were winning. They snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, as we like to say here in BC.

Am I going to keep mum, next time I disagree with Coach? Probably not. But does that mean I know more about cricket than he does? He's a level three coach, I'm a level zero internet junkie.

That doesn't mean he's perfect, that doesn't mean that I might not know something the great coach doesn't. But to argue against certain players in the context of the last game is ridiculous.

Shahzad bowled possibly the spell of the tournament there to prize out 3 wickets. As ordinary as he was at the death, as crappy as Anderson bowled, thats how extra-ordinary Shahzad bowled in that middle overs spell. I watched those balls on my computer screen, and then I saw them again on TV. I saw what Coach Pont saw, great deliveries. There is nothing you can against seam and swing at 85 mph, except pray you get lucky and get some wood on leather.
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Old March 12, 2011, 09:19 PM
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I agree with the runout too coach. The match was a sure win for BD team. But hard work is always necessary to be successful in anything. I am glad, shafiul and mahmud turned the match and saved the day in the end. Keep playing like this Tigers!
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  #71  
Old March 12, 2011, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beamer
. But, the most important thing that happened was the way Riyad-Shafiul assessed the situation and went about their way. The RR was never an issue and I was happy that they identified that correctly. Once Shafi took it to Swann on that over, the pressure was squarely back on England again.
surprisingly this hasn't been mentioned that much. all we hear is "riyad for ash" blah, blah, blah.

the genius of this partnership was not that it worked or that we won or its rarity. shafiul is a match-winner of a kind we've never seen before. in fact, the world might have seen another clutch guy like him. Laxman compares, but he's merely a batsman. shafi's won matches with bat and ball.

but the genius lay in the cerebral analysis of the situation. and then its implementation. both riyad and shafi understood from the first ball of the partnership what needed to be done. they knew the equation like a master mathematician and acted accordingly. shafi took a few ugly flashes outside off, but thats to be expected of a genuine tail-ender. other than that, the soft handed pushes for ones and the highly calculated slog hits were genius personified.

one thing is for sure though, riyad/naeem are not suited for power hitting down the order...and we still need Ashraful until the Sabbir Rahman Romans are ready to take over.

Quote:
However, one thing is pretty clear to me, and that is our batting limitations. We have to bowl/field out of our skins every game to keep the opponents total within manageable target.
we manage to bowl and field "out of our skins" quite often don't we? Keeping NZ to sub 200 totals multiple times, defending sub 220 totals regularily, keeping england to 225. its far too often to be called a fluke. yeah there will be days when we'll concede 350, especially away from home, and of course anytime India plays, we'll lay out a track as flat as an aircraft carrier, but otherwise most teams will be held in check by our tandem bowlers.

Quote:
If we can do that, I think we are always within a chance. In that sense, batting second is probably more preferable, since we would know the target at hand. Bowling in our conditions are our strength, and anything below 250 is manageable target. We get a good start, one decent partnership in the middle, and we should be able to pull it through with everybody else chipping in. As long as the batting remains a two man show ( Tamim_Sakib ), we will have a hard time chasing anything above 260, and 300 is probably still out of reach. Batting first and putting a big score is still tricky for us with the players that we have right now. Then, you have to take advantage of batting PP, good starts, big partnerships- all the factors that has to go in to construct a big innings. I think we are far away from all that still.

Bowl first. Bowl and field with a purpose. Restrict the opposition below 240. Put the pressure on them. Take the asking rate out of equation and we will win more than our share. That's where our one day team stands as of now. The day, when at least one of our top five on a consistent basis can score a ton every game ( or two big fifties ) will be the day we can think of winning from any situation.
agreed.
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  #72  
Old March 12, 2011, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tanim3960
I thought Tamim out was also a world class delivery by Tim Bresnan.
Bresnan's was a cross seam ball, didnt move at all, was just on the right length and line.

Still a very good ball
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  #73  
Old March 12, 2011, 10:32 PM
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Farhad Farhad is offline
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Join Date: December 11, 2006
Location: Boston, MA
Favorite Player: Sakibul Hasan
Posts: 2,815

Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
hey, i've disagreed on things with Coach Pont before (batting PP issue from India match)...and guess what? It looks like he was right and I was wrong. Most of the top teams have struggled in the batting PP. SA and India, the two strongest batting lineups have goofed it up in games they were winning. They snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, as we like to say here in BC.

.........................
Ian obviously knows more about cricket than anyone here. Thats not the issue here.

My problem with your post was based on your generalization that bangladeshis were "tough to deal with" simply because a few members here raised perfectly valid (though perhaps slightly misguided) objections to our recent batting performance. These sweeping statements have become a trademark of your posts (like your statement today of how "we" are worse than "the arabs"), and I thought It important to correct you.

Aside from that, I enjoy your posts because you usually demonstrate sound and objective reasoning (as evidenced by your willingness to admit you were wrong disagreeing with coach Pont). More of that please!
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  #74  
Old March 12, 2011, 10:34 PM
Ian Pont's Avatar
Ian Pont Ian Pont is offline
Ex Bangladesh National Bowling Coach
Dhaka Gladiators Head Coach
 
Join Date: February 1, 2011
Posts: 1,351

One thing that pleases me about THIS thread is we are starting to get some informed and thought out debate.

Defining why a player does something or how we improve performances requires genuine thinking and planning. This is how Australia have done it and been world Champions for the last FOUR World Cups.

If BD fans, supporters and lovers of cricket can appreciate that to climb Everest it takes one step at a time, then we are making progress. The bowling so far (certainly since my time here) and fielding has put us into positions of victory more often than not. Taking those victories is about determination and belief in self.

I am sure coaches will come and go over time - including myself - just as players will come and go as we move towards our goals. Just as long as intelligent cricket is being played by all involved, then BD will continue it's slow, long climb towards higher rankings.

The road ahead has pot holes, bumps and cracks in it. But that's what makes this game of cricket so utterly absorbing....
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  #75  
Old March 12, 2011, 11:42 PM
shafayeen shafayeen is offline
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Join Date: July 30, 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Favorite Player: Shakib, Pollard, Steyn
Posts: 566

People, how lucky are we to have an International Coach, who is doing a wonderful job with our team, with us; why would u go and pick a disagreement conversation with him? U r not playing in the middle, u didnt wake up one morning dreaming and by the end of the day a whole nation was against u, and u were humiliated. Please, do not over analysis, its not Fifa 2011, the players are human and there is a human emotional side to it that some of u choose to totally ignore.

Our players gave their all, even if they didnt win last night, i wud have been happy.

Please show a little more respect to our coach.
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