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  #1  
Old November 25, 2012, 03:23 AM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Default WI series post-mortem 2012

Batting average = 34.93
Bowling average = 64.26
ratio = 0.544

That ratio since Jan 1, 2010 up to this concluded series was 0.55. This series was 0.544, meaning we basically performed at exactly the same level as we have since India series in 2010. No improvement. Our batting average has gone up quite a bit, but our bowling average has dipped proportionately. We have quite a bit to go because NZ, the next weakest side, have a ratio of 0.76 since Jan 2010.

Things the BCB needs to recognize:

1) Selection and Personnel: It was both conservative and fair, if not necessarily justified in playing the likes of Junaid, SN, and Nazimuddin. Beyond our control was that an 11 month gap between performances means that much could have and did change in between. Junaid and SN are hopeless against short pitched bowling, even on the highways that were lain out in Mirpur and Khulna. Nazimuddin is an even weaker player and his scores showed that. Naeem is, right now, the best option we have although I wouldn't be against bringing Mominul in and letting them compete for a spot. Anamul should brought in sooner than immediately, and it appears as though he will get his Test try-outs in the coming ODI series. The other opener slot is wide open, and we know Imrul is not the answer. The most promising solution is Soumya Sarkar, and I know he's not ready, but the team needs come first. If he has it, he will struggle and then adapt. Even if he contributes only once in 10 innings, its better than than the alternatives who contribute never. Unless you want to fall back on Ashraful...might as well invest in the future for the same immediate payout.

2) Overall planning: Who's idea was it to produce wickets that offer nothing to spinners? Whoever it was should be fired immediately and without severance. Afraid of Narine and a debutant (Permaul)? Then you shouldn't be playing Test cricket. Its insane to bank on our pacers even against Zimbabwe's, but you have got to back your spin attack. Did making a flat road of a track help in either Test? Were ever in the match? Sure just a few batting errors flipped would have turned two losses into two draws, but what happened to going for a win?

Here's how WI's spinners fared against us:

154.3 overs, 17 maidens, 11 wickets, 596 runs, and econ rate of 3.86

Versus our spinners (who bowled to superior batsman, mind you):

225.5 overs, 30 maidens, 18 wickets, 705 runs, and an econ rate of 3.12

Their average = 54.18, ours = 39.17. Moral of the story: play to your strengths.
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  #2  
Old November 25, 2012, 03:58 AM
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In Our FC Cricket

For drawn matches, bonus points should be given to the team playing more number of overs in first innings rather than to first innings lead. This will encourage teams to stay in the crease than scoring quick runs... Or a combination of both... We really need to find out ways to teach our players, how to stay in the wicket rather than hitting every ball to score runs....if we like to make any progress at the test level...

We don't need a FC league, where two teams coming and playing two ODI innings...

Andha-Dhoon hit korey kichu chnese boundary merey 20/30 run kortey parlei average ok and beton halal, team position shurokkhito...we just need to come out of this cycle...

Last edited by BANFAN; November 25, 2012 at 04:30 AM..
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  #3  
Old November 25, 2012, 04:16 AM
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Finally, a sensible thread. It's retarded that BCB are still going with flat tracks at home. Get good turners (like the one in Mumbai). You're not good enough to draw tests, but you have a world class spinner and good up and coming spinners in sunny and gazi. What's the worst they'd expect, to lose? Oh wait,you do that already.

If BCB had brains fof cheese, BD would be far ahead by now.
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  #4  
Old November 25, 2012, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakibrulz
Finally, a sensible thread. It's retarded that BCB are still going with flat tracks at home. Get good turners (like the one in Mumbai). You're not good enough to draw tests, but you have a world class spinner and good up and coming spinners in sunny and gazi. What's the worst they'd expect, to lose? Oh wait,you do that already.

If BCB had brains fof cheese, BD would be far ahead by now.
Now you are inviting
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  #5  
Old November 25, 2012, 05:03 AM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakibrulz
Finally, a sensible thread. It's retarded that BCB are still going with flat tracks at home. Get good turners (like the one in Mumbai). You're not good enough to draw tests, but you have a world class spinner and good up and coming spinners in sunny and gazi. What's the worst they'd expect, to lose? Oh wait,you do that already.

If BCB had brains fof cheese, BD would be far ahead by now.
I've always maintained that flat tracks will always favor the "bigger" team. When the teams are well matched, balanced sides it will usually result in a draw. Case in point, our 2009 tour of Zimbabwe were the tracks were flat and we out-batted them 4-1.

When we host ZIM or IRE then watch the BCB bring out some minefields and even things up. Happened in our 2009 home series vs ZIM...we batted the whole 50 overs to barely score 150 in one of the games, and the infamous game where SL was reduced to 6-5.
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  #6  
Old November 25, 2012, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
Batting average = 34.93
Bowling average = 64.26
ratio = 0.544

That ratio since Jan 1, 2010 up to this concluded series was 0.55. This series was 0.544, meaning we basically performed at exactly the same level as we have since India series in 2010. No improvement. Our batting average has gone up quite a bit, but our bowling average has dipped proportionately. We have quite a bit to go because NZ, the next weakest side, have a ratio of 0.76 since Jan 2010.

Things the BCB needs to recognize:

1) Selection and Personnel: It was both conservative and fair, if not necessarily justified in playing the likes of Junaid, SN, and Nazimuddin. Beyond our control was that an 11 month gap between performances means that much could have and did change in between. Junaid and SN are hopeless against short pitched bowling, even on the highways that were lain out in Mirpur and Khulna. Nazimuddin is an even weaker player and his scores showed that. Naeem is, right now, the best option we have although I wouldn't be against bringing Mominul in and letting them compete for a spot. Anamul should brought in sooner than immediately, and it appears as though he will get his Test try-outs in the coming ODI series. The other opener slot is wide open, and we know Imrul is not the answer. The most promising solution is Soumya Sarkar, and I know he's not ready, but the team needs come first. If he has it, he will struggle and then adapt. Even if he contributes only once in 10 innings, its better than than the alternatives who contribute never. Unless you want to fall back on Ashraful...might as well invest in the future for the same immediate payout.

2) Overall planning: Who's idea was it to produce wickets that offer nothing to spinners? Whoever it was should be fired immediately and without severance. Afraid of Narine and a debutant (Permaul)? Then you shouldn't be playing Test cricket. Its insane to bank on our pacers even against Zimbabwe's, but you have got to back your spin attack. Did making a flat road of a track help in either Test? Were ever in the match? Sure just a few batting errors flipped would have turned two losses into two draws, but what happened to going for a win?

Here's how WI's spinners fared against us:

154.3 overs, 17 maidens, 11 wickets, 596 runs, and econ rate of 3.86

Versus our spinners (who bowled to superior batsman, mind you):

225.5 overs, 30 maidens, 18 wickets, 705 runs, and an econ rate of 3.12

Their average = 54.18, ours = 39.17. Moral of the story: play to your strengths.
Excellent thread. I agree almost every thing with you without opening position. We know that there is no good option available for this position. Though we don't have any option, if Soumya isn't ready we shouldn't make him debut early. Because if he can't perform according to our expectation, he will lose his confidence and he may lose his career. So we have to find out alternative until he's ready.
We should make our first class cricket more competitive. Some quality pacers from other countries can be played. We can organise more first class tournaments like NCL. I read an article yesterday from Prothom Alo where Shourav Ganguly said our Premier league is very competitive and attractive. It can be made like Ranji Trophy of India as a first class tournament which will be helpful for us to develop the skills of our cricketers to adjust Test cricket.
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  #7  
Old November 25, 2012, 06:49 AM
M.H.Rubel M.H.Rubel is offline
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In this series we played with 8 batsman in a Dhaka. Ctg high way probably with a hope to draw tests. But its clear draw is a tough job. So it was better to go with spinning wicket.
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  #8  
Old November 25, 2012, 06:55 AM
M.H.Rubel M.H.Rubel is offline
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Good thread Furquan vai.
You have suggested Soummya as a test opener. To me its a suicide call. As we don't have any option, I would like to try Jahirul.
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  #9  
Old November 25, 2012, 02:44 PM
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Right before Samuels got out at 260, I was mortified by the outside chance that the great Lara's record could be broken seeing the ease with which the guy was handling our attack or lack thereof. My mind told me "NO!" because the world would not forgive Bangladesh for a toothless bowling display. Such performance has deep repercussions in the great arenas of cricketing annals. We have a responsibility far greater than our wins and losses. It is a great honor that we have been bestowed - and with that comes great responsibility. One may say - it is almost sacred.
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Old November 25, 2012, 02:51 PM
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Samuels batted well because the pitch had nothing in it for the spinners - the moment it had something, Shak got in action in day 4. You can clearly see the difference.

Rubel bowled with a lot of heart, wish Mash could play tests tbh.
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  #11  
Old November 25, 2012, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M.H.Rubel
In this series we played with 8 batsman in a Dhaka. Ctg high way probably with a hope to draw tests. But its clear draw is a tough job. So it was better to go with spinning wicket.
With a batsman less and one specialist bowler, increases the chance of even draw. Because its not only about we scoring, also about keeping the opponents score low or making them struggle to score and consume more time to take a considerable lead.

Our approach was like trying to fill a bottom less bucket...no matter how much you score, if you aren't able to take wicket/check opponents runs...you never can accumulate enough to fill it up ...
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  #12  
Old November 25, 2012, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakibrulz
Samuels batted well because the pitch had nothing in it for the spinners - the moment it had something, Shak got in action in day 4. You can clearly see the difference.

Rubel bowled with a lot of heart, wish Mash could play tests tbh.
I agree with what you said _ however, and thats a big however - a home team knows the conditions and prepares the team accordingly. WI compensated by using there pace attack. That onus of adjusting is a test team's responsibilty. It was our field, our choice - and clearly no plan. England made a mistake in first test, but then adjusted and came back with a plan that was workable. that is test cricket.
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  #13  
Old November 25, 2012, 03:17 PM
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members here are saying we should prepare bowling friendly pitch's... etc.

the batsmen can't score good runs (Mushfiq, Nafees, Nazim, Junaid, Tamim) on flat tracks... what's the point of have a bowling pitch? unless they can prove that they can score runs on flat tracks, I fear about having bowling friendly pitch's!
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Old November 25, 2012, 07:43 PM
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This series just shows how much better the West Indies are in every department. Their batting, bowling, and fielding were all far better than us. Our spin department was the only advantage for us but that got erased pretty much since their pacers were far better than ours.

Congrats to the West Indies for a well deserved series win. This is a team that always had talent but lacked maturity and had personal agendas. Full credit to Ottis Gibson and Darren Sammy for bringing these guys together and playing as a team rather than for individual glory. They have a clear goal to be a top 5 Test team and they have shown focus in getting that goal. They pushed Australia hard at home, beat NZ handily and now beat us easily. Their definitely a team on the right track. Best of luck to them in trying to reach that goal.

As for us, well this result was expected. On paper, it was obvious that the WI were better. What bothers me, however is the clear lack of fight from our guys. As soon as partnerships start building up against us, our guys just sit back and just wait for a mistake to happen. This isn't T20's or ODI's. Our players have to be the ones to force the mistakes. Unfortunately our players still lack the temperament for the game. Also the shots our batsmen played showed how our players seem to be more content on their place in the side rather than playing as a team. Hate to be harsh but that's what it seems like. We desperately need a coach who can bring these guys together and play as a team and focus on winning matches. Personal milestones are good and all but if we end up losing then what's the point in the end?

Also the plan of bringing 8 batsmen was a faulty one and it showed. We clearly played a bowler short and we ended up failing to draw both matches anyways. Also Shakib needs to bat in the top 4 and be relied upon as the 5th bowler if we want to get the best out of him. Having our best batsman at #5 is too low. Bring him up to #3/4. Do you see Australia using Watson and South Africa using Kallis as the 4th option? No because they use them more as batsmen which is the way it should be. Dropping Sunny was just baffling. The guy did so well last year in Tests and yet he gets dropped? What did he do to get dropped?

Also it's time we drop SN, Junaid, and Nazim. Their going to continue to fail if they continue with their style and technique. Time to bring fresh blood. Anamul and Mominul should be brought in without question. Give these guys a fair shake and see what they bring to the table. Also I'd be open to bring Sarkar in as well knowing how poor our situation is with the top order. Asif Ahmed could be more ready than Sarkar so I wouldn't mind bringing him in.

Also time to drop Shahadat. What has he done with all his experience? I just haven't seen improvement in him. Look at Rubel in comparison, sure he wasn't blowing down the house either but the amount of heart and discipline he showed was great to watch. He's shown clear improvement since the time he debuted. Time to bring Taskin in, in my opinion. Hes young but the amount of promise he has is hard to ignore, especially considering the fact that we lack decent pacers. We need to bring him in and work him in to the lineup. Have Rubel and Taskin open the bowling and have Abul come in as 1st change.

Sorry for my long post but I needed to get my opinion out there.

Last edited by Tiger444; November 25, 2012 at 09:23 PM..
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  #15  
Old November 25, 2012, 08:29 PM
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Major worries in both batting and bowling. Team selection and captaincy played a key role in our poor performance as well.

Batting
We have had top order troubles since forever. Only in Asia Cup our batting was able to put up consistent performances and as a result we did well. We must learn what we did right in Asia cup and try to bring that into the batting order. One key change is that Law promoted Nasir to the top order. In this test series Nasir seemed a lot better equipped to deal with good fast bowlers and perhaps we need to consider him at higher positions.

Our batters have to recognize match situation and show application in staying at the wicket. They have had the first hand view of what application is all about from Samuels and Chanderpaul and yet after watching WI score a mammoth total we came out and batted like it was a T-20. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding, self respect as well as a lack of faith in the player's own defensive technique.

Bowling
We cannot expect to win Test matches without 4 specialist bowlers. We must prepare tracks which offer assistance to spinners so that we can play to our strength and remain in the match by getting sides bowled out.
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Old November 25, 2012, 08:56 PM
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BCB needs to make NCL their no. 1 priority and allow foreign bowlers (only pacers - max 2) in each division. Also make pacey pitch in few stadiums.

Also make bonus system in a way that will encourage batsmen to stay longer at the wkt and not think abt playing like ODI/T20 in tests all the time.
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  #17  
Old November 25, 2012, 09:18 PM
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Post-mortem kore ki hobe? Je jawar shey to cholei gese. Ekhon kata-chera korleo ki Test status ferot ashbe? Ashbe na.

Posted via BC Mobile Edition (Blackberry)
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  #18  
Old November 25, 2012, 10:01 PM
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Fact is we're not one of the top 8 test playing nations by any stretch of the imagination, and NONE of the conventional ideas with regards to which young player is "ready" to be brought into the senior side can be applied to us and our team full of dead weight with a straight face, unless one is totally removed from reality.

Our best players debuted in their teens and developed playing international cricket. Many, including myself, now believe that the highest level, not the utter farce known as the NCL, is the best place to develop young batsmen with ability because we don't play nearly enough A Team cricket. NCL can actually make a decent player less than decent, in my opinion.

By ability, I mean superior hand-eye coordination including great hand-speed and the ability the sight the ball early, desire and the ability to learn from mistakes. Temperament, meaning playing each ball according to its merit and therefore playing the highest percentage shot possible, will only get better with experience in such players, or so we hope.

While some of these promising young batsmen will fail, either technically (simply not good enough at the highest level) or mentally (unable to repeat and sustain initial success because of high expectation and pressure) others will survive, even thrive under this baptism by fire and become mainstays. That would, with due patience on all of our part, eventually build a solid batting lineup without dead weight, and capable of cohesion.

So, I don't have an issue with Asaad suggesting we bring in Soumya Sarkar right now as Tamim's partner. Will he succeed right away or over time provided he has been patiently given enough chances? I don't know. Is there a real possibility, because of his ability, that he may succeed right away or over time provided he has been patiently given enough chances? Yes.

I don't see a real alternative to doing what has worked for us in the past, meaning bringing in young players to see if they survive. We should remember that while we've been disappointed by Ashraful, Alok, Aftab, Rokon, Nafees Iqbal, Tushar Imran, Junaid Siddique Imroze and to a lesser extent, Shahriar Nafees Ahmed and Imrul Kayes Shagor, we've also seen success with Shakib, Tamim, and now Nasir. The jury's still out on Mushfiq.

I'm not too high on Shourobh and not at all high on Ratul, he's another Rokibul type of batsmen with limited ability and therefore like Rokibul has very little chance of sustaining success at the highest level, but am very high on Bijoy and increasingly, Soumya. Hom has temperament issues when not scoring singles from the onset of his innings, but I do believe that international cricket is the place for him to develop a better one.

Having said all that, we also need good bowlers to be truly competitive, and without quality coaching and a variety of pitches, that is more unlikely to happen. Sad really, because better bowlers bowling on a variety of pitches WILL make our batsmen better and significantly better prepared for the highest level.
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Last edited by Sohel; November 26, 2012 at 04:20 AM..
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Old November 25, 2012, 10:01 PM
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Players insist on playing according to their natural style. Most of us fans also support this. So if my style is just hiting (or blocking) the ball, I should be doing it irrespective of the situation. Cricket is a team sport. If players want to play according to their natural style, they should play tennis or golf, not cricket. You play according to your team's need. If you can't do this, you should not be selected to represent Bangaldesh team.
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Old November 25, 2012, 10:09 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohel
Fact is, we're not one of the top 8 test playing nation by any stretch of the imagination, and NONE of the conventional ideas with regards to which young player is "ready" to be brought into the senior side can be applied to us and our team full of dead weight with a straight face, unless one is totally removed from reality.

Our best players debuted in their teens and developed playing international cricket. Many, including myself, now believe that the highest level, not the utter farce known as the NCL, is the best place to develop young batsmen with ability. By ability, I mean superior hand-eye coordination including great hand-speed and the ability the sight the ball early, desire and the ability to learn from mistakes. Temperament, meaning playing each ball according to its merit and therefore playing the highest percentage shot possible, will only get better with experience with such players, or so we hope.

While some of these promising young batsmen will fail, either technically (simply not good enough at the highest level) or mentally (unable to repeat and sustain initial success because of high expectation and pressure) others will survive, even thrive under this baptism by fire and become mainstays. That would, will due patience, would eventually build a solid batting lineup without dead weight capable of cohesion.

So, I don't have an issue with Asaad suggesting we bring in Soumya Sarkar right now as Tamim's partner. Will he succeed right away or over time provided he has been patiently given enough chances? I don't know. Is there a real possibility, because of his ability, that he may succeed right away or over time provided he has been patiently given enough chances? Yes.
Well said...I was hoping NCL would be a meaningful litmus, but Tamim averaged 300 this year there and averaged 1/10th of that against WI. Shows the gap there is between NCL and even the lower ranked Test teams.

Its time to baptize Anamul, Soumya, Taskin (though he can perhaps wait one more season), and Mominul and possibly Asif Ratul. They must be given at least 10 Tests and 20 ODIs to prove themselves and if they fail, bring on the next crop. Rinse and repeat till we "win the cup" as ATMR would say.

We have NO other option. Enough of this pansy a$$ cowardice of "grooming" so and so like he's a hollywood pooch and and fear mongering of them "not being ready" like they're sweet sixteen virgins who need a tanker full of KY on prom night.
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  #21  
Old November 25, 2012, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
Well said...I was hoping NCL would be a meaningful litmus, but Tamim averaged 300 this year there and averaged 1/10th of that against WI. Shows the gap there is between NCL and even the lower ranked Test teams.

Its time to baptize Anamul, Soumya, Taskin (though he can perhaps wait one more season), and Mominul and possibly Asif Ratul. They must be given at least 10 Tests and 20 ODIs to prove themselves and if they fail, bring on the next crop. Rinse and repeat till we "win the cup" as ATMR would say.

We have NO other option. Enough of this pansy a$$ cowardice of "grooming" so and so like he's a hollywood pooch and and fear mongering of them "not being ready" like they're sweet sixteen virgins who need a tanker full of KY on prom night.
It's like doing the same things over and over and expecting different result....

We have so many other things to do, to ensure that the same guys are well prepared and increase their chances of success.
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  #22  
Old November 25, 2012, 10:21 PM
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NCL averages might count for very little when identifying who is good but as Naeem showed in the first innings of the first test, being in good NCL batting form does help players to compile a good international innings at home. Even Nazza had the same impact against Pakistan when he was brought in while being in good batting form. In case of Tamim, form is irrelevant because he likes to throw his wicket away. In the WI test series the selection was wrong and we brought in players like Junaid, Nafees and Nazza who were not in good form even in the NCL. We also failed to select Enamul Hq Jr. and Sunny to partner Shohag in the spin department because somehow we felt going with Shahadat and Abul was the best option.

Naeem looked comfortable from the onset and showed patience while building his innings for that century but you could notice the complacency in his subsequent failures. That is the root of the problem imo. The goal of the players cannot be as low as getting into the national side. We often see our players getting out just after scoring a fifty while on the same match opposition batsman are scoring double centuries. All the players must seek higher goals so that they don't get into their comfort zone so quickly. This can only happen if we have fierce competition for places with two three genuine prospects for every position in the national side.
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Old November 25, 2012, 10:24 PM
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Bringing in a fast bowler too early is far more risky because of the real possibility of injury. Just look at Talha, Mashrafe and Rubel. Taskin needs to be sent to Ian Pont's academy for a couple of years. He has time.
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  #24  
Old November 25, 2012, 10:45 PM
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Sohel Sohel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadukor
Naeem looked comfortable from the onset and showed patience while building his innings for that century but you could notice the complacency in his subsequent failures. That is the root of the problem imo. The goal of the players cannot be as low as getting into the national side. We often see our players getting out just after scoring a fifty while on the same match opposition batsman are scoring double centuries. All the players must seek higher goals so that they don't get into their comfort zone so quickly. This can only happen if we have fierce competition for places with two three genuine prospects for every position in the national side.
We must also bear in mind that while certain batting tactics may work on certain favorable conditions against bowlers of certain quality bowling under those conditions, they won't under more challenging conditions aiding those and even better quality bowlers. International cricket is all about those variables, and therefore, there's no real alternative to picking players with ability who, at least in theory, may adapt better to that reality.

Sadly, that ability isn't always reflected by NCL stats even when they should. One just needs to go to an NCL game or talk to local cricketers to know why.

So, while I appreciated what he did, I couldn't get too excited about Nayeem's test 100, I wasn't about Nazza!'s 70 either, and their subsequent failures during the same tour came to me as NO surprise. That's what you get with the Nayeems, Nazza!s, Rokibuls, Rajins, "Decans"es and Jahuruls of the world. It gives me no pleasure to say that BTW. In fact, it saddens me deeply.
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Old November 25, 2012, 10:48 PM
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Tiger444 Tiger444 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadukor
NCL averages might count for very little when identifying who is good but as Naeem showed in the first innings of the first test, being in good NCL batting form does help players to compile a good international innings at home. Even Nazza had the same impact against Pakistan when he was brought in while being in good batting form. In case of Tamim, form is irrelevant because he likes to throw his wicket away. In the WI test series the selection was wrong and we brought in players like Junaid, Nafees and Nazza who were not in good form even in the NCL. We also failed to select Enamul Hq Jr. and Sunny to partner Shohag in the spin department because somehow we felt going with Shahadat and Abul was the best option.

Naeem looked comfortable from the onset and showed patience while building his innings for that century but you could notice the complacency in his subsequent failures. That is the root of the problem imo. The goal of the players cannot be as low as getting into the national side. We often see our players getting out just after scoring a fifty while on the same match opposition batsman are scoring double centuries. All the players must seek higher goals so that they don't get into their comfort zone so quickly. This can only happen if we have fierce competition for places with two three genuine prospects for every position in the national side.
That's the key. The attitude needs to change. Some of the players on the team seem far too relaxed after playing a good innings. We need Shakib and Nasir type players that are hungry to score big every innings, not just once every 5-6 innings.
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