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  #1  
Old March 30, 2012, 06:57 PM
zsayeed zsayeed is offline
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BDFlag Sober-ing Shakib and Kallis

My new dream for Shakib.
But I have a question, has Kallis already exceeded Sobers's greatness?

Who should be the ultimate criterion for the best test all-rounder in history? Kallis or Sobers?

Who is it that if surpassed we can really say that Shakib is best all-rounder in history?


When can we replace the following Line in Cricinfo with Shakib's name?

Quote:
In a nutshell While Bradman's status as the greatest batsman is increasingly under threat, no one raises an eyebrow at Garry Sobers being called the greatest allrounder.


I named it Sobering Shakib and Kallis... Is that a misnomer?

Discussions on becoming the best in all formats are welcome.

That is best in history - simultaneously in all formats and individually in each format.

Am I asking too much?

Can I dream a bit...a lot ... dream BIG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Addendum 1 March 30, 2012
I added Botham after reading Shuja Bhai's post, and seeing Botham's beast bowling stats - sorry Botham, thanks Shuja Bhai)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Addendum 2:
Imran March 30, 2012
------------------------------------------------------------------
Addendum 3
Kapil Added after reading Boka Bhai's post. Thanks! March 31, 2012
------------------------------------------------------------------
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Last edited by zsayeed; March 31, 2012 at 10:56 AM..
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  #2  
Old March 30, 2012, 07:22 PM
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In spite of thicker bats, shorter boundaries, (usually) better pitches, etc etc Sobers' batting average is still better than Kallis'. That says something given how Kallis has been given free reign to practically play as a batsman over the past few years. Shakib's stats indicate that he is a better bowler than either of them, more 5-wi, better SR, better average - all in fewer matches. Shakib is not even close to either of them in terms of batting. I don't know if he will ever be given how few and far between our test matches are. I think, going by the FTP, Shakib will not get more than 70 test matches in his career. So, at the current rate (factoring in batting improvement), I see maybe 25 5-wicket hauls and 10 centuries. Good stats, but not something that will put him in the pantheon of all round greats
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  #3  
Old March 30, 2012, 07:59 PM
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i don't think kallis has surpassed sobers. everyone still talks of sobers as the greatest allrounder of all time, kallis is a current player if people thought he was near sobers of surpassing him i'm sure we would be hearing a lot more comparisons between them.

stats wise, kallis is as good or maybe even slightly better but factor in that sobers also bowled spin wchih would have pushed his average down and he might have slightly better stats than kallis.

but i reckon if you ask people who have seen both bowl they'll probably consider sobers the better bowler or at least better pacer. and batting wise even though kallis is consistent he has a reputation for being a slow poke (even though when he times the ball perfectly it looks sublime) whereas sobers has more of a reputation for flare.

now as far as shakib goes as has been said bowling wise he seems better, batting wise he has a long way to go. but i'd wonder who is considered the best spin allrounder of all time? shakib might already be pretty close to the top of those ranks, obviously to stay their he needs to continue doing it because longevity is a factor for greats.
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  #4  
Old March 30, 2012, 08:44 PM
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I don't see Shak scoring 25 more 100s in next 75-80 games to take over Sober. May be 15 at best, JMG. As for bowling, I don't wanna look too much into it, but his stats already look better than the other 2, though of course things can and will change.

And Kallis not being talked about much doesn't mean anything to me. Being the center of discussion, "the talk," has lot to do with personality and charisma. Kallis doesn't have any popularity. Kallis is a old school, quite guy. He hardly celebrates his wickets or centuries. He played and plays along side with many exciting but less talented players, yet they were more popular among fans.

He did up his rep by getting that wig and people started to talk about it. lol
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  #5  
Old March 30, 2012, 08:45 PM
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To me a true all-rounder is someone who can make into the team both as a batsman and a bowler. Sobers definitely could, but Kallis? I don't think he makes into any current test team as a bowler. (Of the past all-rounders, the only other who could easily meet this criterion is Ian Botham.) Shakib should be able to get into any test team as a bowler. As a batsman, he should be able to make it to at least half of the test-playing nations. I don't expect him to attain Sobers' level, but he should be able to get close.
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  #6  
Old March 30, 2012, 08:50 PM
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This is almost like an official thread. Perhaps five years from now would be an ideal time to revisit this thread.
(Assuming Shakib continues to perform for Bangladesh with excellent fitness)
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  #7  
Old March 30, 2012, 09:02 PM
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You guys have awesome comments!
I like the word Pantheon!
I see the pathos in the FTP.
I see Ian Botham needs attention.

I will add him to the table.
Thanks.

Addendum:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Botham batted at 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9; but mostly at #6
Kallis has batted at 3, 4, 5, 6, 7; but mostly at 4.
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  #8  
Old March 30, 2012, 09:03 PM
Dilscoop Dilscoop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuziburo
Sobers definitely could, but Kallis? I don't think he makes into any current test team as a bowler.
Aus: Kallis over Christian, Dussey, (even Watson, considering he can't give his 100% while bowling and they could use a #3)
Ban: umm, do I even have to list names here?
Eng: Bopara, Bresnen, Patel
Ind: Mr Million Dollars/2weeks of gully cricket, The Pathan brothers, Vinay Kumar,
NZ: They've lost all their ALRs, so he can easily replace one of them, N McCullum,
Pak: dare I say Afridi, considering they have Ajmal? Abdur Rehman, Hammad Azam
Srl: Mathews, Randiv
WI: Sammy, Pollard, Bravos, Dwayne Smith, A Russell.
Zim: w/e

True, Kallis lost his bowling a bit, but that's due to the fact that they've had some awesome young bowlers coming in in last few years. But back in the day, Klusener, Pollock, and Kallis would dominate. Kallis is more of a batting ALR now, it's his strong suit.

Can Shakib get into any side with his batting? I should say bowling, considering his current form, but overall, bowling is his stronger side. So I'll ask for batting.
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  #9  
Old March 30, 2012, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsayeed
My new dream for Shakib.
But I have a question, has Kallis already exceeded Sobers's greatness?

Who should be the ultimate criterion for the best test all-rounder in history? Kallis or Sobers?

Who is it that if surpassed we can really say that Shakib is best all-rounder in history?
place the foWhen can we rellowing Line in Cricinfo with Shakib's name?



I named it Sobering Shakib and Kallis... Is that a misnomer?

Discussions on becoming the best in all formats are welcome.

That is best in history - simultaneously in all formats and individually in each format.

Am I asking too much?

Can I dream a bit...a lot ... dream BIG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That will never happen as Shakib would never get a chance to play that many matches to surpass Sober's or Kallis's record.

And to say the truth the cricket world would never consider him as one of the greats unless he does something extraordinary against those elite teams (England, Aus, SA) and away from home.. or a man of tournament performance in the World Cup would earn him more respect than what he is getting now... So Shakib have to work really really hard. He have to get those double feats (century + 5 wicket hauls) or have to make a habit of scoring centuries more often.

But you know what separates Shakib from these greats is how this boy shone with limited resources that was available for him and with very little support from his teammates( I mean in terms of performance) .. for a long time he carried the burden of his team all by himself (Yeah he is still carrying the fair share of the burden but now at least many others has stepped up to support him). If you look at the match by match stats for both Sobers and Kallis you will see they always got a consistent partner at the other end who were more than capable of hitting centuries. And for bowling none of Sobers or Kallis were their team's strike bowlers, sometimes they even didn't have to bowl for more than 10 overs. But Shakib doesn't have that luxury..... It's him or none.He have to snatch the victory for his team all by himself ..In fact he has instilled that belief in his teammates now.. This itself is legendary IMO ...

I personally don't care whether the world recognizes him as one of the great all-rounders or not .But all I want him to do is to contribute more for his team and take BD to a respectable position. I think Shakib himself too cares less about those stats..But we all know that if he is successful to do so the stats will just follow and who knows may be one day we will see someone writing :

"In a nutshell While Bradman's status as the greatest batsman is increasingly under threat, no one raises an eyebrow at Shakib Al Sobers being called the greatest allrounder."

And yes I am with you - DREAM BIG
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  #10  
Old March 30, 2012, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oronnya

I personally don't care whether the world recognizes him as one of the great all-rounders or not .But all I want him to do is to contribute more for his team and take BD to a respectable position. I think Shakib himself too cares less about those stats..But we all know that if he is successful to do so the stats will just follow and who knows may be one day we will see someone writing ....


And yes I am with you - DREAM BIG
Thanks. Greatness, I am speaking of - and greatness occurs in the dark recesses of the heart. Not by stats. Stats will speak volumes after the event - as does Sobers'. He is capable of greatness; and to say that one does not care - is robbing of the dream. Why apologize for it ? Set the sights high. He is not on trial here, its to set a target - remember: passion starts with a belief. A lifetimes work may result in greatness. It is not out of reach... or is it?

10 years from now I want to look back at that table, and be able to say, aah what a dream we dreamt!
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  #11  
Old March 30, 2012, 10:10 PM
zsayeed zsayeed is offline
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Well what do you think about Imran, should he be on that list. CI thinks so:
"In a nutshell Imran Khan is indisputably the greatest cricketer to emerge from Pakistan, and arguably the world's second-best allrounder after Garry Sobers. He took a mediocre side and transformed them into world-beaters, leading them to the World Cup title in 1992."
He has 3807 runs from 126 innings at an average of 37.69 and
362 test wickets from 88 tests.


Let me know. He batted mostly at #7 - majority.
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Old March 30, 2012, 10:22 PM
oronnya oronnya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsayeed
Thanks. Greatness, I am speaking of - and greatness occurs in the dark recesses of the heart. Not by stats. Stats will speak volumes after the event - as does Sobers'. He is capable of greatness; and to say that one does not care - is robbing of the dream. Why apologize for it ? Set the sights high. He is not on trial here, its to set a target - remember: passion starts with a belief. A lifetimes work may result in greatness. It is not out of reach... or is it?

10 years from now I want to look back at that table, and be able to say, aah what a dream we dreamt!
Yes the dream of 160 millions will definitely translate into reality someday. But my point is not to get obsessed with stats. Yeah we fans can afford to do so but not Shak. He should just concentrate on how to improve his performance right at this point. Yes I believe that you are as big/great as your dreams. This boy has always dreamt big and that's the secret of his success of course. This is the boy who at the age of 12 confronted his dad and said "I don't want to be a footballer because football won't give me the ticket to play and win world cup" his dad was astonished by his audacious dream.

But you see the reality is Shakib won't get enough matches to prove himself as one of the all time great all-rounders. That's why I said he have to prove himself in whatever limited opportunity he gets.
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Old March 30, 2012, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsayeed
Well what do you think about Imran, should he be on that list. CI thinks so:
"In a nutshell Imran Khan is indisputably the greatest cricketer to emerge from Pakistan, and arguably the world's second-best allrounder after Garry Sobers. He took a mediocre side and transformed them into world-beaters, leading them to the World Cup title in 1992."
He has 3807 runs from 126 innings at an average of 37.69 and
362 test wickets from 88 tests.


Let me know. He batted mostly at #7 - majority.
Yeah I was about to ask you to add Imran Khan ... though he was more of a bowling all-rounder , then again how many genuine all- rounders do we have in the history of cricket!!!
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Old March 30, 2012, 10:34 PM
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This is an excerpt from CI Profile. Sobers was a spinner and a fast medium pacer...hmm.

"As a batsman he was great, as a bowler, merely superb, but would have made the West Indies side as a bowler alone. He was remarkably versatile with the ball, bowling two styles of spin - left-arm orthodox and wrist spin, but was also a fine fast-medium opening bowler. His catching close to the wicket may have been equalled but never surpassed, and he was a brilliant fielder anywhere."
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Old March 30, 2012, 10:37 PM
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One thing you would notice is that Kallis and Sobers are the only all-rounders who have earned more runs than given away. May be a trivial stat...but interesting. Sobers being the more balanced - his runs earned and given away are equal almost.

This inclines me to think Sobers is the Perfect all-rounder...so far.
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Old March 30, 2012, 11:16 PM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilscoop
I don't see Shak scoring 25 more 100s in next 75-80 games to take over Sober. May be 15 at best, JMG. As for bowling, I don't wanna look too much into it, but his stats already look better than the other 2, though of course things can and will change.

And Kallis not being talked about much doesn't mean anything to me. Being the center of discussion, "the talk," has lot to do with personality and charisma. Kallis doesn't have any popularity. Kallis is a old school, quite guy. He hardly celebrates his wickets or centuries. He played and plays along side with many exciting but less talented players, yet they were more popular among fans.

He did up his rep by getting that wig and people started to talk about it. lol
i don't mean talk from fans i mean talk from the cricket world the experts. usually whenever they talk about him it's about his batting, but i guarantee if any current player was seen to be as the all time #1 in a certain field (in this case an allrounder) then the cricket experts would at least reference it at some point and say he's the best ever but that never happens with kallis, and if it does it's more to do with his batting.
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Old March 30, 2012, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuziburo
To me a true all-rounder is someone who can make into the team both as a batsman and a bowler. Sobers definitely could, but Kallis? I don't think he makes into any current test team as a bowler. (Of the past all-rounders, the only other who could easily meet this criterion is Ian Botham.) Shakib should be able to get into any test team as a bowler. As a batsman, he should be able to make it to at least half of the test-playing nations. I don't expect him to attain Sobers' level, but he should be able to get close.
kallis was a more effective bowler in his younger days. he bowled a lot more often and bowled quicker to. nowadays his body doesn't allow it and he's such a major player in RSA's batting line-up they don't want to risk his injury. also now RSA are bringing some real genuine talented pacers out. steyn has been the best fast bowler for years now and philander is making a big mark, morkel depsite not getting wickets has always had the weaopns and de lange is a real talent so kallis is rarely needed now. they just use him to either give someone a break from bowling or if their fast men have toiled long hard hard but failed to get the wicket (doesn't happen these days) he gets brought on for an over or to kind of like steve waugh, mike hussey, ricky ponting do (of course he is a much better bowler than those guys).
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Old March 30, 2012, 11:26 PM
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now when it comes to genuine test allrounders who could make it as batsmen or bowlers into the team, there aren't many who can on paper, stats wise.

for example ian botham i think in the books has the most 5 wicket hauls and centuries in one match, i think he's done it 4 or 5 times with the next best being only one or 2. but overall stats say he isn't the best allrounder. i always believed abdul razzaq had the potential, he was quick in his earlier days and with the bat he could dismantle any attack but his stats don't show his ability much like botham's.

as far as imran khan goes, he really is more of a bowling allrounder. stats show he was a very capable batsman a 37 average in test cricket is nothing to sneeze at but if you actually look at him bat i don't think he's quite there as a batsmen as other allrounders. i mean sobers, kallis, botham and even shakib when they bat they look like batsmen, imran almost did but not quite imo. HOWEVER, if you go through his career stats and pick out various periods of time (im talking a decade, YES, 10 years or almost 10 years) he averages 50 with the bat and 20 or under with the ball.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

^that's 51 matches and not far off 10 straight years. batting average of 51.6 and bowling average of 19.9 < THAT'S incredible!

in fact this if you add a couple more matches on (53 matches) his batting average was 52.77 and his bowling average was 19.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

i don't think anyone else in histroy has been able to perform this consistently in both batting and bowling for such a lengthy period of time. on top of that he was a great captain as well.

oh and 53 test matches is more than half 0f his test career about 60% of it actually. now that's a big effort!
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Old March 30, 2012, 11:58 PM
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Gowza, I am impressed by your findings - and indeed Imran's stats are impressive. That 10 year segment would be the perfect all rounder performance.

Thanks for your insight.

One more thought about kallis. I don't think any cricketing authority figure can call Kallis the greatest while he is still playing... that would just be wrong. I think that can only be bestowed after a cricketers retirement. That would be proper. I think the greatness is a lifetime achievement award....and Kallis' life is still on - on the pitch.
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Old March 31, 2012, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsayeed
Gowza, I am impressed by your findings - and indeed Imran's stats are impressive. That 10 year segment would be the perfect all rounder performance.

Thanks for your insight.

One more thought about kallis. I don't think any cricketing authority figure can call Kallis the greatest while he is still playing... that would just be wrong. I think that can only be bestowed after a cricketers retirement. That would be proper. I think the greatness is a lifetime achievement award....and Kallis' life is still on - on the pitch.
i agree in one sense, but in another.....if a player is the greatest then they are the greatest. we've had soo many great allrounders since sobers but still people consider sobers the best so to find someone better than him would be quite the revelation which is why i think there would be more talk of kallis as the potential best if if people thought he was.
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Old March 31, 2012, 02:06 AM
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To be honest, Shakib Al Hasan is not even closer to the batting average the other two greats have, but what separates him from the other two is that this boy has done the records or the feats possible within limited resources. Be it for the cricket board or because of inconsistency from his team-mates.

Of course, I wanted to see him beside these these two greats....or even better......surpass them in the years to come

Who knows we might witness him scoring centuries and take 5 wickets consecutively in the near future....it's cricket....anything and everything's possible
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Old March 31, 2012, 02:09 AM
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so this thread is not about sober bedding of shakib and kallis eh
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Old March 31, 2012, 02:17 AM
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Old March 31, 2012, 07:52 AM
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To get past Sobers, one would have to average at least 60+ in nowadays. He had led the batting charts for years.

No, Shakib cannot replace Sobers unless he averages 60 and continue taking wickets like right now. That means scoring centuries in test right and left. That is too much to ask with the support or the top order platform he needs. 26 test and 2 centuries wouldn't take him to the top five discussion. Plus he is not averaging in the 20s with the ball either.

Jack Kallis has a bigger argument but nah. Sobers was a tremendous fielder as well. Unless Kallis gets 6 more centuries before he retires meaning equaling Tendu he will not cross Sobers. Sobers was undisputed #1 batsman of the World for a long time. Kallis has competition in his team Amla let alone the World.
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Old March 31, 2012, 09:56 AM
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আর উইকেটও পাইতো বেশীবেশী
বেচারার পোড়াকপাল যে এইরকম একটা দলে খেলে যেখানে ভুরিভুরি মারাত্বক সব বোলাররা ঝাকে ঝাকে আইতাছেই

আর কে-না জানে সোবারস্ যখন খেলছে তখন না হইতো এত্তো ঘনঘন খেলা
আর না ছিলো চটজলদি একজনের নাড়ীনক্ষত্রের বিশ্লেষনের এত্তো সুবিধা

টেস্টে সাকিব-এর একটা দারুন জায়গা করে নেওয়ার সুযোগ আছে
তয় কলার টা না উঠাইয়া লম্বা সময় সুস্হ শরীরে
আর আমাগো দেশের সংঘাতিক ( আমি দেশের ক্রিড়া সাংবাদিকদের তাই কই) গো কখনও কখনও দেয়া অতি বাতাস আর কখনও চোখা মন্তব্যগুলা হজম কইরা
আর তিরিশেই বুইড়া হইয়াগেছে এই ঝামেলার মুখে ঝাটা দিয়া টিক্কা থাকা তো চাই

আমি কই পোলাডা যদি ঠিকমতো খেলে তয় আরও ১৫ বছর সে খেলবে
আর এই সময়ে বাংলাদেশ বছরে ৬ টা টেস্ট খেলা থেকে উন্নতি কইরা ১০টায় আসতে পারবো আশাকরি
আমার হিসাবে সে যখন অবসরে যাবে তার থাকবে ৬০০+ উইকেট আর ৮০০০+ রান
যে কীর্তি-টা তার একারই হবে
তয় তার জন্য চাই অনেক অ-নে-ক খাটুনি

আর একখান কথা অলরাউন্ডার নিয়া কথা হইতাছে অথচ ৪৩৪ উইকেট আর ৫২৪৮ রানের মালিকরে বাদ দিয়া এইটা জানি কেমুন ঠেকে........ টেস্টে কিন্ত্ত ৫০০০+ রান আর ৪০০+ উইকেট পাওয়ার একটাই কীর্তি তাই না ??!!!
কপিল দেবের নামটা লিস্টিতে আসা উচিত

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