The Unsolved Batting Mystery

[Navo]

Holden, while what you have said in your post is logical, I would like you to consider this:

Is it better to go with a 4 pronged pace attack which, even assuming everyone is fit and in top form, isn't as good as the pace attacks of RSA, Eng, Australia, etc OR go with a spinner (preferably not an SLA) and a couple of line-and-length pacers and play on the other teams' weaknesses against the slower/spinning ball?

It's a fallacy that spinners can't be effective on bouncy tracks - spinners just need to know how to exploit it. Leg spinners like Kumble have always used it to good effect, rather than relying on lots of spin.

Therefore, I'd say rather than having a mediocre pace bowling allrounder (unless we find a gem), let's develop Romman or Nur Hossain and inject some variety into our bowling. (Romman can also add fire power to our batting)

[jeesh]

We ll probably play 3 quicks, 1 specialist spinner, and 1 spin all rounder (Shakib).

There is no problem with this, but we have to put Mashrafee and Razzak for special batting camp. Its almost like the tail starts from 8. Many other countries bat till 9, 10. While we have 4 players who are more or less number 10 or 11.

[BengaliPagol]

Ziaur Rahman to me can really make a difference for our team. He could be the real hard hitter for us when we do chase targets down. He can also we a partnership breaker when he comes on to bowl medium pacers.

I have been convinced by Holden's post that we should try Shakib at no. 3. He has everything in the book and it is proven that whenever he bats higher up the order then he will score runs. But one thing that is a worry for me is the burden it will put on his training. It puts in too much responsibility because batting at no. 3 is the most important position in the team and he is also a key bowler to our bowling attack.

I would still give him a try at no. 3. Our no. 2 and 3 seem to be a problem for us.

The other problem is that if we put Shakib at no. 3 then we have to shift the rest of the batting lineup.

Some people dislike Kayes but i always thought he is one of the classiest batsmen in the team. I always loved watching him play. On his day he can really play some glorious shots. I would still give him a chance.

We need to put this team into action and see how it goes in Aussie/NZ conditions

1. Tamim IQBAL
2. Imrul KAYES
3. Shakib AL HASAN
4. Mushfiqur RAHIM
5. Mahmudullah RIYAD
6. Nasir HOSSAIN
7. Ziaur RAHMAN
8. Mashrafe MORTAZA
9. Abdur RAZZAK
10. Nazmul HOSSAIN
11. Rubel HOSSAIN

[RazabQ]

How'd I miss this thread? This is classic BC.
One word answer to why those batters have not thrived: Laziness.
Laziness is not just about whether you are going to the gym and nets. Classic example - Aftab
Laziness is also assuming that not thinking hard about your game and how to advance it will not matter. e.g. Ash and Rokon - arguably the two most gifted (hand-eye-coordination + timing) cricketers we have produced to date and two of the most brainless batters you will ever see at the crease
Laziness is not compartmentalizing your batting technique and focusing on improvement one at a time: e.g. TIK working on his leg glances, Shak working on his pulls vs. SN still not fixing his compactness issues or IK not working on his single-creation shots
Laziness is not fighting the inevitable curves life (especially in a developing country will throw at you) e.g. NIK letting marriage, injury and business derail a promising Test career, Opee becoming involved in murky stuff

Mushy is widely acknowledged to be the hardest working cricketer in the team
Shak is widely recognized as the most DRIVEN in the team
TIK is, in bursts, one of the most ambitious for glory, in the team.

No surprise that these three are therefore leading our batting.

[beshideshi]

I am surprised how everyone has evaded a very simple point, the players get found out at international level.

Most of our batsmen lack technique, even Shakib, Tamim have gaps in their techniques that can be found out by top quality bowlers.

When a new guy comes in, there is nothing the opponent can do research on, so the opponent basically bowls the 'correct' line and length and could be feeding the batsman runs. However once the batsman scores some runs, opponents take notice and bowl at his weakness and BAM, there goes his runs.

Unless a player can constantly improve and fill up the gaps, he will always struggle. For instance, Tamim had faulty leg side play, so he got loads of short balls and was struggling after his initial burst, however he trained hard and now his leg side play is as good as anyone's. And that is why he has survived past his initial burst. Most players aren't able to improve at a rate good enough to score runs.

[BengaliPagol]

Originally Posted by beshideshi
I am surprised how everyone has evaded a very simple point, the players get found out at international level.

Most of our batsmen lack technique, even Shakib, Tamim have gaps in their techniques that can be found out by top quality bowlers.

When a new guy comes in, there is nothing the opponent can do research on, so the opponent basically bowls the 'correct' line and length and could be feeding the batsman runs. However once the batsman scores some runs, opponents take notice and bowl at his weakness and BAM, there goes his runs.

Unless a player can constantly improve and fill up the gaps, he will always struggle. For instance, Tamim had faulty leg side play, so he got loads of short balls and was struggling after his initial burst, however he trained hard and now his leg side play is as good as anyone's. And that is why he has survived past his initial burst. Most players aren't able to improve at a rate good enough to score runs.

I would say Tamim has a good technique. He has good straight drive and cover drives. Probably tends to lash out at the balls that are wide of off and tends to get caught in the slips. We havent seen the lashing Tamim as much during the world cup which is good.

Yeah sure our team doesnt have great techniques. Nasir doesnt have a good technique but he has a good mentality and temperment which makes up for his lack in technique.

At least there isnt a player in Bangladesh Cricket Team that has a horrible tehcnique which is good.

[playmaker]

Great post Razab bhai

The only reason for this lazyness is that our players dont have much of a competition among them. We saw Nazimuddin failing time and again and he was still pursued whilst inform anamul and imrul was sitting in the dugout. We persisted with shahadat and shafiul even though these two have been PROVEN failures time and again.

A classic example would be naeem. He had something like 2 half-centuries in his entire career. When he would come to bat, the team needed fireworks and what he would do is nothing but block, even lullah mullah was better than him.

And sir Ash? ar kisu bolar dorkar nai

Well, thankfully, the trend is and will change for the good. For example, I dont see Sir Aftab even getting chance in domestics if he doesnt work hard. It was disgusting when he said he said : "cricket khelata khub koshter, ami amar chele meyederke cricket khelte mana korbo"

[Gowza]

anamul as 2nd opener, i think he will be our long term #2. the #3 spot is tougher, sure shakib could do it and might be the best performer at that slot but he is our #1 bowler so putting him at #3 in the batting line-up which is basically the toughest batting spot and most important just puts more on him, more on his batting when he's just said he wants to improve his bowling atm.

now for #3 we have jahurul atm, other options are shuvagata, asif and mominul.

line-up:
1 tamim
2 anamul
3 asif/shuvagata/mominul/jahurul (maybe for now stick with jahurul)
4 riyad/shuvagata/mominul (if riyad doesn't workout then try the other 2)
5 shakib
6 rahim
7 nasir
8 mash
9 sunny/razzak
10 rubel
11 nazmul/al-amin

otherwise this:

1 tamim
2 anamul
3 asif/shuvagata/jahurul/mominul
4 riyad/shuvagata/mominul
5 shakib
6 rahim
7 nasir
8 ziaur
9 mash
10 rubel
11 nazmul/sunny/razzak/al-amin

either way nasir/riyad, even shuvagata or ziaur if they are part of the team will have to chip in for the 5th bowler slot.

there are a bunch of different combinations that can be used. they have to workout whether they want to groom anamul as a keeper batsman or as a pure opener because that dictates where he bats in the test line-up and therefore has a big impact on the dynamic of the test team.

[Holden]

Originally Posted by Gowza
the #3 spot is tougher, sure shakib could do it and might be the best performer at that slot but he is our #1 bowler so putting him at #3 in the batting line-up which is basically the toughest batting spot and most important just puts more on him, more on his batting when he's just said he wants to improve his bowling atm.
.......................

there are a bunch of different combinations that can be used. they have to workout whether they want to groom anamul as a keeper batsman or as a pure opener because that dictates where he bats in the test line-up and therefore has a big impact on the dynamic of the test team.

I would only advocate promoting Shakib to #3 in ODIs only, no way should he bat in the top order in Tests.

[Banglaguy]

Is it better to be a player who can score a century at a Strike Rate of about 75-85 or a player who can score 60's and 70's at a Strike Rate of 90+?

[ma_o_mati]

Originally Posted by Banglaguy
Is it better to be a player who can score a century at a Strike Rate of about 75-85 or a player who can score 60's and 70's at a Strike Rate of 90+?

depends on the situation the team is in...

[Roey Haque]

Originally Posted by jeesh
What do Mehrab Hossain (Opee), Aftab Ahmed, Mohammed Ashraful, Rajin Saleh, Raqibul Hassan, Tushar Imran, Hannan Sarker, Alok Kapali, Shahriar Nafees, Nafees Iqbal have in common?

All of these guys were once considered very talented batsmen. They broke into our team did very well for a few matches-scored fifties and even centuries. After that they had a few bad games, some were chopped, some were given more opportunities, some were recalled for the second time. But none of them are ever the same again. It seems like a curse that have been working on all our batsmen. In other countries, batsmen get better as they age and gain more experience. In Bangladesh it is the opposite. Batmsen are good when they are fresh and just in the side, but as they play more matches they keep on getting worse. Just look at the and statistics of our batsmen.

The list will keep on growing. More and more players will be added. What is the reason some of our batsmen have excellent starts to their career, then they flop and disappear into obscurity. One year they are our heroes, next we are all asking for them to be chopped. Is it our domestic cricket? Is it a problem with our players mindsets? Is it a problem with our selectors? Problem with our coaching? What is your opinion? BCB needs to get to the root of this problem and address it. Otherwise Bangladesh will always have 20-23 year olds playing for the national team. Once batsmen reach 25, its as if it is better for them to retire than continue.

Absolutely disagree with your generalization. Over simplifying is not the answer here. Neither is it productive. Batsmen have form cycles, much like the economy, though in shorter spurts of booms and busts. The batsmen you name did not do well enough to merit a long standing place in the team when they first joined. They had good innings spaced out between a lot of low scores, sometimes coming in succession, but that's about it. That is not considered form. Form should be displays of class, maturity, and a 25-30 up average no matter what. The feeling like that this batsman will not throw away his wicket cheaply. The batsmen you name all did that.

Now coming to the second issue, you can not categorize players like Tamim in your bracket because he has proven himself already. Fact is, the guy is already a legend in Bd cricket, and will retire as one if he quits today. He has cemented himself as a run getter, using aggression and random ball leave outs to build up his innings. And so, here is a player who will embark on his journey of form cycles, doing poorly in a series maybe but eventually returning with good scores.

Of course the lines are vague, I still consider Roqibul to be a good player whom you have put in your list. He was steadily showing the signs of a team mainstay, which selectors look for. He was quickly establishing himself as a steady grinder, holding the team together when wickets were falling around him. That was his niche in the team. Question is, whether he had begun his form cycle or not, and now the selectors are scratching their heads wondering the same thing.

It is definitely tricky, I'm not saying I'm right, but I'm not saying you are either.

Peace out,

Roey

[Roey Haque]

Originally Posted by Banglaguy
Is it better to be a player who can score a century at a Strike Rate of about 75-85 or a player who can score 60's and 70's at a Strike Rate of 90+?

As long as he's scoring 50s, who cares? Hell, I would be over the moon to have 4 or 5 such batsmen in the Bd team. That would at least ensure a 200 up score every ODI. We would never have to be embarrassed again.

Peace out,

Roey

[playmaker]

Originally Posted by Roey Haque
As long as he's scoring 50s, who cares? Hell, I would be over the moon to have 4 or 5 such batsmen in the Bd team. That would at least ensure a 200 up score every ODI. We would never have to be embarrassed again.

Peace out,

Roey

you need to play the situation. For example, tendulkar was needed to accelerate when he got well settled but he didnt and it def. cost his team.

At the same time, Nasir played a slighty slow innings against SL but that was because the team only needed some stability.

A world class batsman is one who can read the situation and play accordingly.

[Banglaguy]

Originally Posted by Roey Haque
As long as he's scoring 50s, who cares? Hell, I would be over the moon to have 4 or 5 such batsmen in the Bd team. That would at least ensure a 200 up score every ODI. We would never have to be embarrassed again.

Peace out,

Roey

But the speed of these 50's in ODI's has to be given a certain degree of weighting. It is more embarrassing to see a player score a 50 at a strike rate of 60 (as did Imrul Kayes in the 2010 Asia cup against Pakistan) in the chase of 389. I mean, sure, stabilize and set a base, but you need to up the pace. I know cricket is about playing according to the situation, but I believe to succeed in trying to merely not fail is cowardice.

[Leafs PWN]

I think it's a lack of 3 things: temperament, education, practice.

The base of any successful human is a good educational background. Education allows one to better control your emotions, effectively analyze situations, and thus make better decisions.

Because a lot of our guys lack this, their decision making skills are not on par with the rest of the cricketers around the world. Because of this, once they make it, most of them think they've already done all the hard work, and start to slack off. Missing a practice here, another there, and over time it grows into a habit.

As most of us know, truth is, once you get in, you need to start working harder. The level of competition you face increases, and the level of competition to stay in the team increases as well. These guys think having club cricket mentality will be enough, and that seriously backfired once the bowlers start making adjustments, or the team starts playing on different surfaces.

Once in a while, we see Shakib's, and Mushy's, who go over that hurdle, and stay completely devoted to practicing. As Siddons, and Stuart have indicated, Mushy breathes cricket. He's the first one in, last out. This is why he has completely transformed his game. Same with Shakib. We have recently seen his batting really turn the corner.

Hopefully Tamim is in that group. By having more of these guys, the culture of the team will change, and thus the younger will be bent into shape.

It's similar to the Yuvraj story. He got way too involved with partying, and got kicked. Once Tendu guided him, Yuvraj turned into once of the best performers at the WC.

[Roey Haque]

Originally Posted by Banglaguy
But the speed of these 50's in ODI's has to be given a certain degree of weighting. It is more embarrassing to see a player score a 50 at a strike rate of 60 (as did Imrul Kayes in the 2010 Asia cup against Pakistan) in the chase of 389. I mean, sure, stabilize and set a base, but you need to up the pace. I know cricket is about playing according to the situation, but I believe to succeed in trying to merely not fail is cowardice.

Maybe I should have added geting a 200 up score everytime while batting first. The example you give is a chase, and against a gargantuan score too.
The original poster has given us the choice between two strike rates, but promising both batsmen who reach 50s. If this was the case, I would still be happy.

Ask yourself, do you hate it when we put up measly 140s and 160s, putting too much burden on our bowlers?
Do you hate it when the opposition scores 240s and 260s, but our chase is so poor that getting to 200 becomes the main focal point of the match?

If the answer to these questions is yes, then you would be happier having 4 to 5 batsmen who would guarantee you 50s, with a couple of them having good strike rates and a couple of them with bad ones. Trust me when I say we would never be embarrassed again.

Peace out,

Roey


Oh, and the same goes to BC member "playmaker", who's reply was similar to banglaguy's, albeit more vague. Consider this as a response to that message as well.

[jeesh]

Originally Posted by RazabQ
How'd I miss this thread? This is classic BC.
One word answer to why those batters have not thrived: Laziness.
Laziness is not just about whether you are going to the gym and nets. Classic example - Aftab
Laziness is also assuming that not thinking hard about your game and how to advance it will not matter. e.g. Ash and Rokon - arguably the two most gifted (hand-eye-coordination + timing) cricketers we have produced to date and two of the most brainless batters you will ever see at the crease
Laziness is not compartmentalizing your batting technique and focusing on improvement one at a time: e.g. TIK working on his leg glances, Shak working on his pulls vs. SN still not fixing his compactness issues or IK not working on his single-creation shots
Laziness is not fighting the inevitable curves life (especially in a developing country will throw at you) e.g. NIK letting marriage, injury and business derail a promising Test career, Opee becoming involved in murky stuff

Mushy is widely acknowledged to be the hardest working cricketer in the team
Shak is widely recognized as the most DRIVEN in the team
TIK is, in bursts, one of the most ambitious for glory, in the team.

No surprise that these three are therefore leading our batting.

One of the best posts in this thread. Do our guys work as hard as they should? Glen McGrath's accuracy didnt come out of the blue-the guy used to literally practice with a coin in the practice pitches. Bevan used to run up and down the pitch wearing pads to improve his running between the wicket. I live in Colombo. Sometimes you can see cricketers like Vaas jogging on the road around 6 PM. Apparently a few of them run like this everyday for fitness.

I was impressed with the news Mashrafee has been practising on his own everyday after the Asia Cup Final. Thats what we need from all our cricketers. Work ethic needs to be there

[jeesh]

Originally Posted by Roey Haque
Absolutely disagree with your generalization. Over simplifying is not the answer here. Neither is it productive. Batsmen have form cycles, much like the economy, though in shorter spurts of booms and busts. The batsmen you name did not do well enough to merit a long standing place in the team when they first joined. They had good innings spaced out between a lot of low scores, sometimes coming in succession, but that's about it. That is not considered form. Form should be displays of class, maturity, and a 25-30 up average no matter what. The feeling like that this batsman will not throw away his wicket cheaply. The batsmen you name all did that.

Now coming to the second issue, you can not categorize players like Tamim in your bracket because he has proven himself already. Fact is, the guy is already a legend in Bd cricket, and will retire as one if he quits today. He has cemented himself as a run getter, using aggression and random ball leave outs to build up his innings. And so, here is a player who will embark on his journey of form cycles, doing poorly in a series maybe but eventually returning with good scores.

Of course the lines are vague, I still consider Roqibul to be a good player whom you have put in your list. He was steadily showing the signs of a team mainstay, which selectors look for. He was quickly establishing himself as a steady grinder, holding the team together when wickets were falling around him. That was his niche in the team. Question is, whether he had begun his form cycle or not, and now the selectors are scratching their heads wondering the same thing.

It is definitely tricky, I'm not saying I'm right, but I'm not saying you are either.

Peace out,

Roey

Thanks for your feedback Roey. All those batsmen i mentioned are some of the most talented this country has ever produced. But somewhere something has gone wrong, which we never looked to rectify. Rajin Saleh for example was one heck of a talent. When he made his debut, he was like a rock in or top order. He performed very well for a while. Whatmore said he wished we had one or two more Saleh's. But something happened after that and he never recuperated. The same could be said about some of the other players. Imo none of these players were one match wonders. They did well to be called up to the NT. Look at their records, many of them had a fair bit of success before the flop period started.

[jeesh]

Originally Posted by Leafs PWN
I think it's a lack of 3 things: temperament, education, practice.

The base of any successful human is a good educational background. Education allows one to better control your emotions, effectively analyze situations, and thus make better decisions.

Because a lot of our guys lack this, their decision making skills are not on par with the rest of the cricketers around the world. Because of this, once they make it, most of them think they've already done all the hard work, and start to slack off. Missing a practice here, another there, and over time it grows into a habit.

As most of us know, truth is, once you get in, you need to start working harder. The level of competition you face increases, and the level of competition to stay in the team increases as well. These guys think having club cricket mentality will be enough, and that seriously backfired once the bowlers start making adjustments, or the team starts playing on different surfaces.

Once in a while, we see Shakib's, and Mushy's, who go over that hurdle, and stay completely devoted to practicing. As Siddons, and Stuart have indicated, Mushy breathes cricket. He's the first one in, last out. This is why he has completely transformed his game. Same with Shakib. We have recently seen his batting really turn the corner.

Hopefully Tamim is in that group. By having more of these guys, the culture of the team will change, and thus the younger will be bent into shape.

It's similar to the Yuvraj story. He got way too involved with partying, and got kicked. Once Tendu guided him, Yuvraj turned into once of the best performers at the WC.

Very good post. Mushfiq, Tamim, Shakib, Riyad, Nasir all seem to have a bit more knowledge than say an Ashraful.

Only thing i cant explain is Shahriar Nafees. The guy has a degree and is supposedly pursuing an MBA :P. How can such a knowledgeable person like him bat like he has been