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  #51  
Old April 1, 2012, 01:10 AM
oronnya oronnya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
What's the reason women should not lead prayers?

Can you show where homosexuality is clearly forbidden?

What do you do with those things you cannot accept in Islam?
Ok for the 1st 2 questions I have to do research and get back to you..

But for the last one the answer is simple- "leave it".. If you can't accept Islam wholeheartedly then leave it.. Allah/God/Bhogoban?Nature won't stop you to breath the air or eat the fruits or drink the water... You can do whatever you want to do in your life.. These religious books are like a life manual.. If you don't accept some part of it doesn't mean that you have the right to change it and call it modern Islam.. If you believe something different than Islam and really feel like coming up with a new religion then go for it.. Why you have to be tied to Islam...

Where exactly in Quran did Allah say that muslims are given the liberty of changing the Holy Book or its perspective??

Sorry I'm not confronting you.. it's just I'm trying to find out the logic behind this "Gay-Friendly Mosque" .. Where in Quran does it support homosexuality??
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  #52  
Old April 1, 2012, 01:17 AM
sufism sufism is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
What's the reason women should not lead prayers?

Can you show where homosexuality is clearly forbidden?

What do you do with those things you cannot accept in Islam?

I will only answer your last question as I do not know where to find proper quotes to support the answers of the 1st and 2nd questions. However, I do know the answers logic behind them. Let's wait for someone who can provide quotations.

As for your last question, there are many things I find hard to accept or probably do not have the knowledge to understand them. What do I do? Well.

I believe in God. no doubt.

I studied other religions (Judaism, Christianity, Baha) to some depth with an open mind. In the end, I thought Islam may not be perfect but makes way more sense then other religions. Then I decided consciously practice Islam to the best of my ability and let God take care of my doubts. Of course, I will keep trying to understand the logic. If I die with these doubts in my mind, I can at least say to God, I tried my best to remove these doubts and tried to reach him through Islam since I thought Islam made more sense. I can say I had the right intentions even though I had doubts. I am sure God knows how honestly I am trying and will punish me or reward me as he sees fit.

Main thing is being honest to yourself and having intention to reach God through Islam, Christianity or whatever path. But if you believe some to be God's word, or at least close to God's word, do not try to change it to your liking.
  #53  
Old April 1, 2012, 02:17 AM
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Electrequiem Electrequiem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sufism
Those who want to know what Holly Quran say about Homosexuality, please wait for Rifat or someone else off knowledge to provide you with appropriate quotes. Until then please refrain from passing on your "views" of what you think Islam preaches. You are not doing justice to yourself and others who are reading it. Why can't we stay quiet when we know that we have little or no knowledge about something, particularly religion.
You are assuming I have little or no knowledge about the matter just because I may not agree with mainstream views of Islamic perceptions of homosexuality?

Quote:
But for the last one the answer is simple- "leave it".. If you can't accept Islam wholeheartedly then leave it.. Allah/God/Bhogoban?Nature won't stop you to breath the air or eat the fruits or drink the water... You can do whatever you want to do in your life.. These religious books are like a life manual.. If you don't accept some part of it doesn't mean that you have the right to change it and call it modern Islam.. If you believe something different than Islam and really feel like coming up with a new religion then go for it.. Why you have to be tied to Islam...
Oronnya, sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying if there is even a tiny bit of Islam that you don't see yourself agreeing with - you should stop being a Muslim?

Hmmm ... Are you a Muslim? Do you consider every single line in the Quran to be infallible and therefore explicitly agree? What about this verse:
Quote:
"Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand."
- 4:34

Do you agree that it is allowed for a husband to beat his wife when she is disobedient? Is this a practice you would adopt? Why or why not?

Ajfar,

Have you been to Umrah or Hajj? Aren't there women praying around men there? Did you get distracted by their butts? Also, many other religions who do NOT segregate the sexes during prayer services seem to be fine in their focus. I think just because we don't have precedence we are intimidated by it.
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  #54  
Old April 1, 2012, 02:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sufism
Those who want to know what Holly Quran say about Homosexuality, please wait for Rifat or someone else off knowledge to provide you with appropriate quotes. Until then please refrain from passing on your "views" of what you think Islam preaches. You are not doing justice to yourself and others who are reading it. Why can't we stay quiet when we know that we have little or no knowledge about something, particularly religion.
So on day of Judgement you'd wait for you Rifat or someone else off[sic] knowledge to be there for you to justify your actions?

/NOT trolling
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  #55  
Old April 1, 2012, 02:30 AM
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From what I've read, don't take it seriously I may be wrong, being gay isn't necessarily forbidden in Islam (you can't control your sexuality), but committing acts of homosexuality, i.e sleeping with another of the same sex, warrants being a sin. I've read about gay muslims being abstinent, to stay true to their faith.
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  #56  
Old April 1, 2012, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
Reform within any ideology over time is inevitable. It is time for Islam.

Thoughts?
I wrote a big fat lot that Google Chrome decided to discard off. So here goes again....

I havent read the article, but it's interesting that we're using the word 'reform'. Frankly, Islam has seen its fair share of evolving streams/ progressive/ reform movements or at the least, detraction from the norm. The sufis went looking for divine unity, the Shia's started out pretty early from a progression of events (by definition, 'progressive'), right? And now every other decade there's some lunatic that claims to be the Mahdi, and their many followers who claim that only 'they' will be saved from the Hellfire. I mean these 'reforms' or 'progressions' or 'bidaat' as the Salafists like to call it, have been happening for aeons, so why get hung up on what the liberal secular west likes to highlight all of a sudden?

And I dont want to get into Islamic eschatology about this when people point out that Women leading the prayers heralds the end of the world, because honestly, Rasulullah S.M was a warner for the hereafter and back in the day 1400 years ago his biggest worry was that the end is near. What I take issue with is the reactionary stance that we Muslims take, and the dogmatism that we try to defend ourselves with. This is problematic beyond anything!

Specifically regarding the issues that I saw in your abstract, its also my perception that from the liberal secular pov, women imams and gay imams solemnising marriages is just a bandwagon issue that goes slap in the face of the traditionally patriarchal and overzealously dogmatic Muslim society. And these arent issues just for Muslims, even the Anglican and Catholic churches are having to struggle with this tension where the liberal secular west accepts gay priests, whereas the churches from the global south where most Christians live are absolutely against it. This is simply an issue that is at odds, or one that has been left behind in the past by the secular stream of thought for the current times.

And as I was saying, it is problematic that we stick to dogma to defend our faith rather than coming to an intellectual and matured understanding of things that would be more pragmatic and Islamic in our dealing with these issues. Frankly, if the circumstances arose, I would have no issue praying in jama'ah behind a woman imam. If she can do beautiful Qiraat and is sincere in her ibadah of Allah and has the faith and confidence of her Jama'ah, then she is qualified to lead. There are certain opinions from ma'shayakh that if there is no qualified male to lead the jama'ah, then it is permissible for women to lead. And this thing about getting distracted by the female form is a superfluous and irresponsible defense. If your iman is so weak, then dont pray in that jama'ah at all! Ibadah and Salaat is for Allah alone!

And here's an example of our dogmatism that we faced in our uni masjid. One of the Sri Lankan brothers is a very good reciter of the Qur'an and was once asked to lead the salat. He was wearing three-quarters and a sleeveless t-shirt. Because of his attire, one of our very zealous Bangladeshi brothers vehemently objected and decided not to stand in jama'ah. Later when this issue was brought forward to our imam and shaykh, who himself is a doctoral student and has an ijazah in Qiraat (in a chain going back to Rasulullah S.M) our imam said that if his recitation and intent is the best, then it was fine that he led as imam for that salat. Questions of attire, and other superficial elements that we stick to dogmatically are only a hindrance ultimately. Sure, in the adab of an imam, one shouldnt be wearing shorts, but get me one ayat that says its haram to pray with your knees showing?

This is all in the mindset of us believers at the end of the day, and we're causing more problems than anything. Deviation from the norm, progression, reform, these were all predicted and are to be expected. But have a rational approach to it and have a fundamental insight into what ought to be done. Sticking to tradition, for dogma's sake is kind of self-defeating.
  #57  
Old April 1, 2012, 04:01 AM
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BengaliPagol BengaliPagol is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ammark
Astaghfirullah. what you have written Is shirk and bida of the highest order. do not spread lies and falsehood about Allah and His word.
I might be right or wrong but my Arabic teacher told me that one of the signs that judgement day is near is when
1. Children become ignorant towards their parents
2. Women start to become Presidents/Prime Ministers/World Leaders etc.
3. Women become imaams and start leading prayers
There were other things as well but i forgot them.

Im not trying to spread lies or falsehood Ammark. Im just trying to state something which I have learnt from my Arabic teacher about my religion Islam.

If i am wrong then please forgive me Ammark and i will also ask for forgiveness from Allah Subhana Watala.

If women do end up leading prayers then that is whats going to happen because that is what Allah wants. We cant do anything about it because we are all created by Allah.
  #58  
Old April 1, 2012, 04:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BengaliPagol
Im not trying to spread lies or falsehood Ammark. Im just trying to state something which I have learnt from my Arabic teacher about my religion Islam.

If i am wrong then please forgive me Ammark and i will also ask for forgiveness from Allah Subhana Watala.
May Allah grant you that which is good. Thank you BengaliPagol, but be cautious about what you say. There is no ayat in the Quran that states what you wrote in that post. And saying so with certainty is in essence a lie or falsehood. Which is why I started with 'Astaghfirullah' - I seek forgiveness from Allah. However, I will not fault you for saying what you said. It is important that whoever our sources are for whatever we are taught, try and verify the authenticity of those claims.

There are many signs of the Qiyamah. Among them is that the Muslim ummah (which includes the followers of the prophets of Allah) will be continually divided into many groups. Only one of those groups will enter Jannah. This is pertinent to this thread because arguably the new divisions and reform movements may all be the ones wrongly guided. After all the hadith is that all the groups will enter the jahannam, except for one of those who follows in the sunnah of the Rasulullah.
  #59  
Old April 1, 2012, 04:18 AM
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Progressive Muslims?
To reform "American" Islam?
...
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  #60  
Old April 1, 2012, 04:56 AM
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One one side we have progressive freethinking muslims, on the other side we have hardlined sunni traditionalists.

Its an interesting mix, but I dont see any compromise.
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  #61  
Old April 1, 2012, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
...
Besides, I believe that inherently "Separate but equal" is unequal.
...
Why don't you consider the men to be inherently ''separate but equal''? Can be looked at both ways, can't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
...
Like I said, the progressive movement is about having a CHOICE.
This is something I can welcome. Let's not let one dictate what the other considers about something being Islamic or not. Let there be a healthy coexistence.

Last edited by Purbasha T; April 1, 2012 at 09:30 AM..
  #62  
Old April 1, 2012, 09:06 AM
Purbasha T Purbasha T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sufism
...
Someone mentioned above we need to find out what Islam says about women leading prayer and Gays attending prayers. Really??
....
No harm checking things up, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sufism
...
Besides, there is no recognition of homosexuality in Islam let alone letting gays attending prayer. Homosexuality is considered a sin in Islam. Period. To be honest, there are things in Islam that I can't whole heartedly accept. Does it mean I change the religion to my linking? I have clear choice to accept it as God's word or reject it. Of course, I must sincerely do research to understand the logic behind before I make my mind. Allowing what is clearly forbidden in Islam and then tagging it as Islam is pure hypocrisy. In other words, you are not being honest to yourself.
...
Of course I'm of the same opinion that homosexuality isn't allowed in Islam, and I believe it to be so overwhelming that there is no chance of being the other way, let others think otherwise if they want to. But just like a robber can still be a Muslim despite him being the sinner of robbery, why can't a homosexual still be a Muslim despite being the committer of a sin, albeit of a different type (assuming the abovementioned sins are the only apparent major sins they commit and they both are well versed)? Now unless there's a specific ban on gay people from leading the prayers, I don't see the reason why we ourselves should create a ban.

I'm ready to change my mind if I come across the right evidence.

Last edited by Purbasha T; April 1, 2012 at 09:40 AM..
  #63  
Old April 1, 2012, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sufism
...
There is a reason why women should not lead prayers. I do not have the proper hadith quote. Therefore, I am not going into the explanation.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajfar
In this particular instance praying behind a woman, just think about it logically. Say you are praying behind a woman, it is very possible that even when you are 100% focused you might just look at her 'butt' without even realizing that you did it. Now that's not the most ideal picture you want to have when you are praying. You already have satan trying to get you to lose your focus, and start thinking other stuff, you don't need to help him in his cause.
...
How about the leading woman standing behind all the men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajfar
...
I skimmed through the article really quickly, I understood it was talking about woman and gay people leading the prayer. please correct me if I'm wrong.
There are more to it. Many are claiming the story of the people of Lot (pbuh) wasn't exactly referring to the ban on homosexuality but rather rape. Now this is where they start crossing the line, IMHO. Others may differ.
  #64  
Old April 1, 2012, 09:17 AM
Purbasha T Purbasha T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ammark
... Deviation from the norm, progression, reform, these were all predicted and are to be expected. But have a rational approach to it and have a fundamental insight into what ought to be done. Sticking to tradition, for dogma's sake is kind of self-defeating.
Sums it up really.
  #65  
Old April 1, 2012, 09:25 AM
Purbasha T Purbasha T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nafi
One one side we have progressive freethinking muslims, on the other side we have hardlined sunni traditionalists.
...AND right in the middle of both extremes, we have those Muslims (count me in to be one of those) who consider the elementary parts of Islam to be as unchangeable as anything could possibly be BUT also think that the traditional way of understanding certain parts of Islam are in dire need of being re-evaluated and re-understood.

Now that is NOT akin to changing Islam in itself, but rather changing our understanding of it where appropriate.

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) on his final sermon:
Quote:
''...
All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly.
...''
  #66  
Old April 1, 2012, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
Y

Oronnya, sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying if there is even a tiny bit of Islam that you don't see yourself agreeing with - you should stop being a Muslim?

Hmmm ... Are you a Muslim? Do you consider every single line in the Quran to be infallible and therefore explicitly agree? What about this verse:
- 4:34

Do you agree that it is allowed for a husband to beat his wife when she is disobedient? Is this a practice you would adopt? Why or why not?

.
Electrequiem, I think I was pretty clear in expressing my opinion but still if you find it difficult then I will try to explain it again..

But before I go and explain my argument I would request you once again to provide us with a reference from Quran where it supported homosexuality..

Anyways what I found is :

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81


"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk." Qur'an 26:165


Both references relate to gay sexual activities. So clearly homosexuality is a sin in Islam and trying to modify the fundamentals of Quran is like recreating a new religion and my argument was if you can't accept some part of Quran and feel like you have the right to modify a Holy Book then you (or whoever) better call it a religion of your own.THAT'S NOT ISLAM. Islam by no means gives us the right to modify the Holy Book !!!!

Now about the question that you asked about my personal belief- whether I accept everything in Quran. Actually there is no straightforward answer to it. Of course with my limited knowledge it's not easy to understand or interpret the Words of God. I personally try to seek for the answers, try to find out the logic behind it. I've read all the major religious books, went through Karen Armstrong or Aroj Ali Matobbor or some other's interpretation of Islam just to see it from the different perspective. But TBH none were more convincing than Quran itself for me. You have referred to the verse on how Quran treats women. You found it offensive right? But what about all the other verses where Islam has been very vocal about women right. You did quote a verse but what about seeing the bigger picture? There is this quote in Quran too which talks about how to treat women:

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)

You know it's always dangerous to try to understand Islam by bits and pieces of quotes from Quran. We really have to read and understand the whole book to get the bigger picture. What about Quran establishing laws and rights for women by introducing "denmohor" during wedding and "alimony" after divorce?

"For divorced women Maintenance (should be provided) on a reasonable (scale). This is a duty on the righteous." (2:241)

How could we be so naive to not to see how vocal Quran is about women rights. I am not a strict follower of Islam and I still have many questions. But I am always trying to understand it and seeking for the answers rather than thinking to change it. I don't do Hijab but I have utmost respect for the girls who maintains it as it saves them from lots of complications in the society. But that doesn't mean I judge those girls who wears mini skirt. I believe Religion is not enforced on us. We have the choice to follow it or leave it. Quran never said to take it's word for it. It emphasized a lot on the word "Ikra"- read. Quran encourage you to gain knowledge as it's knowledge which will free your mind. Religion to me is like a philosophy. Not necessary everyone will accept the philosophy but it remains intact in its own right. We don't try to modify the philosophy of Socrates, then why should we try to modify Quran just to fit it into modern life. People can very well lead a modern life without following Islam. And we have no right to judge them. But my point is we don't have the right to change/modify a religion.
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  #67  
Old April 1, 2012, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purbasha T

This is something I can welcome. Let's not let one dictate what the other considers about something being Islamic or not. Let there be a healthy coexistence.
Yeah I completely agree with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purbasha T

Of course I'm of the same opinion that homosexuality isn't allowed in Islam, and I believe it to be so overwhelming that there is no chance of being the other way, let others think otherwise if they want to. But just like a robber can still be a Muslim despite him being the sinner of robbery, why can't a homosexual still be a Muslim despite being the committer of a sin, albeit of a different type (assuming the abovementioned sins are the only apparent major sins they commit and they both are well versed)? Now unless there's a specific ban on gay people from leading the prayers, I don't see the reason why we ourselves should create a ban.

I'm ready to change my mind if I come across the right evidence.
Of course a robber or homosexual can still be a Muslim and who are we to judge? A robber might be a thousand times better Muslim than me. May be he is treating his sick mother with that money. But do you think it's necessary to establish a mosque for robbers/ homosexuals?? Then we will have to establish a mosque for pedophiles too?? It's like sending a wrong message to the Muslim community. Everyone is welcome to any regular mosque..Aren't they? There is no check point there right. But we can't just encourage certain things which are clearly considered as sin in Islam.

""We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81
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  #68  
Old April 1, 2012, 11:21 AM
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Electrequiem Electrequiem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oronnya
Electrequiem, I think I was pretty clear in expressing my opinion but still if you find it difficult then I will try to explain it again..

But before I go and explain my argument I would request you once again to provide us with a reference from Quran where it supported homosexuality..

Anyways what I found is :

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81


"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk." Qur'an 26:165


Both references relate to gay sexual activities. So clearly homosexuality is a sin in Islam and trying to modify the fundamentals of Quran is like recreating a new religion and my argument was if you can't accept some part of Quran and feel like you have the right to modify a Holy Book then you (or whoever) better call it a religion of your own.THAT'S NOT ISLAM. Islam by no means gives us the right to modify the Holy Book !!!!

Now about the question that you asked about my personal belief- whether I accept everything in Quran. Actually there is no straightforward answer to it. Of course with my limited knowledge it's not easy to understand or interpret the Words of God. I personally try to seek for the answers, try to find out the logic behind it. I've read all the major religious books, went through Karen Armstrong or Aroj Ali Matobbor or some other's interpretation of Islam just to see it from the different perspective. But TBH none were more convincing than Quran itself for me. You have referred to the verse on how Quran treats women. You found it offensive right? But what about all the other verses where Islam has been very vocal about women right. You did quote a verse but what about seeing the bigger picture? There is this quote in Quran too which talks about how to treat women:

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)

You know it's always dangerous to try to understand Islam by bits and pieces of quotes from Quran. We really have to read and understand the whole book to get the bigger picture. What about Quran establishing laws and rights for women by introducing "denmohor" during wedding and "alimony" after divorce?

"For divorced women Maintenance (should be provided) on a reasonable (scale). This is a duty on the righteous." (2:241)

How could we be so naive to not to see how vocal Quran is about women rights. I am not a strict follower of Islam and I still have many questions. But I am always trying to understand it and seeking for the answers rather than thinking to change it. I don't do Hijab but I have utmost respect for the girls who maintains it as it saves them from lots of complications in the society. But that doesn't mean I judge those girls who wears mini skirt. I believe Religion is not enforced on us. We have the choice to follow it or leave it. Quran never said to take it's word for it. It emphasized a lot on the word "Ikra"- read. Quran encourage you to gain knowledge as it's knowledge which will free your mind. Religion to me is like a philosophy. Not necessary everyone will accept the philosophy but it remains intact in its own right. We don't try to modify the philosophy of Socrates, then why should we try to modify Quran just to fit it into modern life. People can very well lead a modern life without following Islam. And we have no right to judge them. But my point is we don't have the right to change/modify a religion.
Modify? No. Interpret? Yes. Isn't that what we do, anyway? That's why there's so many different versions of Islam, and many can't come to an agreement over something seemingly as simple as salah.

The story of Prophet Lut, as I interpret it, is speaking out against LUST. What about homosexual LOVE? They are separate. Also, if you want to borrow moral code from Prophet Lut's story - did you know he offered his own teenage daughters to the villagers to be raped when they tried to rape the angels hiding in his home? If you want to borrow an ethical code from that story, why not this one? Do you understand now what I mean about interpretations?

And the reason why I asked you the question about that particular verse was to get exactly the answer you gave me. You know how you told me to look at the bigger picture? That I am taking that verse out of context? Well, aren't you doing the same with the verse about Prophet Lut? Can I not quote the plethora of verses about kindness, love, and appreciation for humanity from the Qur'an and apply them to homosexuals (and others who are marginalized in society)?

Basically, you INTERPRETED, by extrapolating from other parts of the Quran, that wife-beating is wrong. Why can't others do the same about other issues?

You said:
Quote:
You know it's always dangerous to try to understand Islam by bits and pieces of quotes from Quran. We really have to read and understand the whole book to get the bigger picture.
Ameen.
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  #69  
Old April 1, 2012, 11:47 AM
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Ammar: Excellent analysis. Yes, I should have been a bit more clear when I said "reform." Of course, Islam has undergone reform plenty of times - I meant it was time for Islam to grapple with some of the same things that, as you mentioned, other religions are going through when it comes to gender and sexuality. As societal tolerance - nay, that's a bad word - ACCEPTANCE - increases, religions (and followers) must follow suite. Rigidity has no place in any religion.
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Old April 1, 2012, 12:31 PM
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I accept Everything Allah(His glorious majesty) has revealed to Prophet Mohammad(May Allah's peace and Blessings be upon him) and the words Prophet Mohammad(May Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) has uttered with his own mouth without any question. I, Alhamdulillah! am very confident in accepting all commands from Allah! This includes:

Things I myself do not understand.
Things that need furthur reflection/research.
Things I understand, accept but due to my weak faith I make mistakes upon/fall short of the Islamic standard.
Things that other people will heavily criticize me! Allah knows what we reveal and what we conceal in our hearts! it is not for us to judge who is a true believer and who is not because indeed Allah is the most conclusive of all judges!

Allah makes it very very clear in the Qur'an that the role of his creations(Human beings and Jinns) is nothing but to worship him. The Qur'an puts heavy emphasis on the life of the herafter since the duration of this very short life compared to the everlasting hereafter is like a drop of water in an ocean. I am only here as a traveler.

I accepted the fact that Allah works in his own mysterious ways, You only truly understand the Wisdom of Allah when Allah makes you understand it. to truly understand Allah and the choices he makes and how he runs the universe, you have to make some sacrifices in his path, that's why if you read the Qur'an you will notice the Prophets went through the greatest of all trials. I mean Prophet Ibrahim(May Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) had a dream that Allah commanded him to sacrifice his son....the ultimate test of faith. He nor did his son didn't dare question the command...as a result of his sacrifice Allah accepted his sacrifice and raised his status in the hereafter. he made Ibrahim(A'laihis Salam) the father of the Islamic Nation

amar jatir pita Bongobondhu noy, amar jatir pita Ibrahim(A'laihis Salam)..My Nationality is Islam First and foremost then Bangladeshi, because this "Bangladeshi tag" will have absolutely no value in the after life...I love Bangaldesh and my Language with all my heart to the extent Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) Loved mecca and the Arabic language!


In the day of judgement: the sun will be brought near! very very very near. There will be no shade except the shade of Allah. Prophet Ibrahim(A'laihis Salaam) will be the first to be clothed..on this vey difficult day every Prophet will be given a "hauze" (a fountain or source of water whatever you want to call it) in arabic, (it is called Hauze kauthar)...Prophet Mohammad(May Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) will have the largest number of followers on that day and people will lineup to drink this water which originates from the rivers of jannah whose sweetness exceeds the sweetness of honey and once you drink even a sip of it you will never ever get thirsty ever again. so as Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) is distributing this water the angels will drive away a lot of people, Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) will be worried that why is some of his followers being deprived? Angel Gabriel(A'laihis Salaam) will respond: "these people after your departure, added things in Islam which You never approved of" Then prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) says: "oh then get out! get out of my sight!"

Dear Readers, I hope I am not of them

Salaam, Rifat
  #71  
Old April 1, 2012, 01:08 PM
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We throw words like "reform" and interpretation" so casually as if you a few quotes of Hadith and Quran gives us enough knowledge and understanding of Islam. People dedicate their entire life to studying Islam and yet hesitate to give their "own" interpretation. One needs to know the history, background, time frame along with many other things to completely comprehend the context of a verse. It takes years of sincere research my friend. If we feel we want to interpret or reform, then sincerely take the time to study Islam.

I just want to clarify my views before people jump on to tag me as a Sunni hardliner or whatever. I have always believed in God but I have had my doubts about organized religion including Islam. More than half of my friends are more or less skeptic or non believers. I never try to impose my view on them nor do I have a problem when they disagree with me about existence of God.

However, I find it hard to respect people who claim to follow a particular religion yet try to change the very fundamentals. If can't agree with something, be honest to yourself. I respect you when you say, "fine, Islam prohibits the act of homosexuality but I find it hard to that part of Islam". Pure and simple. You are being honest to yourself.

Religion is between you and God. Not agreeing with some interpretation is completely normal. However, if you are sincere about reform, you must spend the time. Reform word should not be thrown by people like me who take Islamic discussion for times pass. And if you don't feel like doing either, then practice the religion as you see fit BUT it would be foolish to express your views on Islam since it will not have any weight.

Again, the summery of my view is, you understanding is between you and God but do not try to change or "reinterpret" something because you can't accept it.

Among other things in Islam, I also find it difficult to accept why homosexuals should be punished if God truly made them the way they are. Trust me, I have been through a phase too.

I hope I made my point clear.
  #72  
Old April 1, 2012, 01:13 PM
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@ Rifat, we would appreciate if you shed some light this issue with quoates from Holly book and Sunnah, with interpretation and context.

I have seen you done that before, hence asking if you could the same here. That would help everyone. Thanks.
  #73  
Old April 1, 2012, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeshan
So on day of Judgement you'd wait for you Rifat or someone else off[sic] knowledge to be there for you to justify your actions?

/NOT trolling
Brother, I am not sure whether you read my post carefully. All I meant was, I do not want to quote something I can't provide support for. I hope I make it clear now. Thanks.
  #74  
Old April 1, 2012, 01:25 PM
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Whatever was not done or practiced by the Prophet is not acceptable in Islam.

Was there any women leading the prayer at his time?
Was there any gay imam during his time?

Regarding Homosexuality

From Quran

“And (remember) Loot (Lot)! When he said to his people, ‘Do you commit Al‑Faahishah (evil, great sin, every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse, sodomy) while you see (one another doing evil without any screen)
Do you practise your lusts on men instead of women? Nay, but you are a people who behave senselessly.’
There was no other answer given by his people except that they said: ‘Drive out the family of Loot (Lot) from your city. Verily, these are men who want to be clean and pure!’
So We saved him and his family, except his wife. We destined her to be of those who remained behind.
And We rained down on them a rain (of stones). So evil was the rain of those who were warned”

[al-Naml 27:54-58 – interpretation of the meaning]

From Hadith

1. It was narrated that Jaabir (may Allaah be pleased with him): “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘There is nothing I fear for my ummah more than the deed of the people of Loot.’”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1457; Ibn Maajah, 2563. This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 1552).

2. It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “… cursed is the one who has intercourse with an animal, cursed is the one who does the action of the people of Loot.”

(Narrated by Ahmad, 1878. This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 5891).
  #75  
Old April 1, 2012, 02:00 PM
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I am not going to comment on the topic itself, but you are absolutely correct about reading the Qur'an in the original language. I have been trying to learn for some time and have made only a small progress. Even with that, I already understand how much one misses while reading only the translation and how miraculous this Book really is.

It takes time and effort. But, if you are interested in learning about the Qur'an (either from the religious perspective or simple intellectual curiosity), nothing can be better than learning the Qur'anic Arabic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeshan
On topic excellent initiative; it's about time the religion got a makeover from blind followers who would harp on imam's bokttobbya and parrot it back instead of taking the time and effort to interpret Quran from their own. OOhh oooh so and so Imam with phd said it then it must be the RIGHT way. That's argument from authority for you.

How many in this forum have actually bothered to learn the language and read Quran for themselves? NONE. Anyone fluent in Arabic? Thought so.

I will give an example. When you read an English translation, it has a very condescending tone with plethora of exclamation marks and sayings like O this and O that! But unless one reads the Quran in Arabic cultural background's context one fails to realize why is that so. In Arabic, THERE IS NO EXCLAMATION MARK.

It's very easy to parrot back other's ideas. Try to read on your own and keep the wisdom to yourself. Better for all of us.
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