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  #51  
Old May 8, 2012, 09:08 AM
Ian Pont's Avatar
Ian Pont Ian Pont is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by playmaker
Pont I know how you feel about the team but at the end of the day who is to be blamed really?
Please call me Ian, or coach because Pont is my family name.

It's not about blame, it's about taking responsibility. If people said "what else can I do to make myself better'? then that would give everyone a starting point.

When you look hard into the mirror you often get the answer.
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  #52  
Old May 8, 2012, 09:22 AM
MSM B2C MSM B2C is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Pont
Solid post.

Those of us working in biomechanics (movement of the body) teach 10,000 repetitions for muscle memory to be correctly learned. It simply means if you want to make a particular skill 'natural' (or change something to be natural) it takes 10,000 repetitions of it. It would explain why doing way less than this leads to it being inconsistent under pressure.

How many times have fans come on here and said "so and so doesn't move his feet" or that "such and such a player played some crazy shot"? The reason is they have not practiced what the OUGHT to do enough (nets) and therefore will constantly go out and under perform.

When you are under pressure you revert to what your sub-conscious has learned and done all day long. You teach the changes by training the changes over that length of time.

Test batting averages, which are the genuine measure of a batsman's skill, whilst they don't tell the whole story certainly tell a large part of it.

"World Class" batsmen: Kallis 57.44, Sangakarra 56.25, Tendulkar 56.02, Trott 55.75, Younis Khan 53.20, Ponting 53,44, Sehwag 52.21 explain why they are where they are.

A random sample of Bangladesh batsmen: Shakib 34.68, Tamim 38.00, Nasir 29.58, Ash 22.60, Nazimmudin 30.25, Imrul 17.15 explain why they are where they are. Plus we have to remember that the Bangladesh stats are mostly against lesser ranked teams too.

Matt Prior who bats at 7 for England, averages 43.09 in Tests as a comparison.

Only the Bangladesh players can do something about that. If players are happy just to be in the side then there's not much hope. If they want to become the best they can, then the coaches can make something of them.

To be the best, you have to beat the best - consistently, day in, day out. It starts on the training ground and in the gym. The coaches have always been there to help.

Whenever someone points the finger of blame at someone else, always look where his other fingers are pointing.
I must admit, this is one of the best Post I have ever seen from you, top notch. outstanding way of explaining and proves that your really good at biomechanics teaching. I really learnt alot from this post and can use in real life example, inshallah.
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  #53  
Old May 8, 2012, 09:22 AM
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Maysun Maysun is offline
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Cricinfo - Shakib Inteview

Quote:
.....

How important is professionalism, overall, to you?
It is very important because without professionalism, becoming a proper cricketer is difficult. I got emotional one day, but after a day I changed. I have to change. The next match I play is a totally different ballgame to me. Such emotions do not matter. If I sit with that emotion, my life won't run in the right direction. I have to improve my game. I think all this falls under professionalism.

Have county cricket and IPL changed your perception of professionalism?
It has mainly happened by playing county cricket. In the IPL there is a lot more travelling and matches so it is difficult to get an opportunity to practise a particular area of your game. In county cricket you get to stay at one place for a while. There's a lot more opportunity to work on yourself. If I want to improve, there's a lot of scope in the county game. This is where professionalism kicks in: to bat an extra hour or to bowl or to do some extra work on the field. It depends on how honest I am with my work.

Do you find it missing in Bangladesh?
I don't think it is missing. I think I am the laziest person in the national team. Everyone else works harder than me.

I do my bit, whatever it is that I need to work on. I might spend the least amount of time in the gym, but when required I will do it.

.....

What's your next ambition?
Personally, I want to improve by finishing matches. My bowling isn't going that well. It's difficult to keep both going - batting and bowling. I feel it is hard to concentrate on both in training. I have seen that if I take one discipline and work on it, it gets better. But to work on both is a bit difficult. So you have to let one go at times. It is a problem at times [as an allrounder]. There's a lot of room to work hard. I told you, I am a lazy person.

How will you sustain this good run that you've had since last December?
If the IPL goes well, I would think it will be a good way to continue. I think it is possible to sustain. I have to play in this manner and stay fit.
Just to refresh everyone's memories!
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  #54  
Old May 8, 2012, 09:26 AM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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yes players taking responsibility for themselves and their career is one big step the BD players need to take. i remember during the siddons era people saying jamie wasn't the right choice for HC and was a bad choice because the players need a motivator someone to motivate them and that jamie wasn't good at that thus the poor results and to that i would always say they are professional cricketers if they don't have the motivation from within themselves then what are they doing their? coaches can only improve a player if they are willing to put in the work, they can motivate to a point but the players have to be able to pull the determination and desire and hard work ethic to improve from within themselves.

as has been pointed out BD has had good quality professional international coaches with chaps, whatmore, siddons and now law. in the past fans have questioned the coaching when the team hasn't performed well. they say it must be the coaching because the whole team is doing poorly not just a couple of players.
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  #55  
Old May 8, 2012, 09:56 AM
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Ian Pont Ian Pont is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSM B2C
I must admit, this is one of the best Post I have ever seen from you, top notch. outstanding way of explaining and proves that your really good at biomechanics teaching. I really learnt alot from this post and can use in real life example, inshallah.
Thanks bhai. So was yours.

Teaching skill is my area so this is a subject extremely close to my heart. I work with students every day and develop talent every day through my own cricket business. All humans learn the same way with a combination of auditory (hearing/telling), visual (seeing) and kinaesthetic (doing/feeling). The combination of those for the individual alters slightly and a great coach knows which ones to tug on to assist with the learning, but the rough importance is 95% doing, 75% seeing, 15% hearing.

It explains why not being able to speak the same language (hearing) is not that important when it comes to embracing new skills.

By far and away the most important for developing skill is by doing. Repeating good things and feeling them (nets) and then seeing them back (video analysis). The cycle of this needs to continue for faults and flaws to be corrected.

You can therefore identify why players will not progress to their best if they simply don't practice and correct as they go.

In the same way a guided missile continually corrects its course as it goes to hit the target, a player must work on developing his skills and ironing out mistakes that reduce his capability to be excellent.

A baby falls over an average 127 times before it learns to walk. We have this inherent ability to learn, as long as the teacher is prepared to be patient. People must realise that keeping going when the going is hard and slow - that is patience. Too often we expect fast results and instant success.
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  #56  
Old May 8, 2012, 10:10 AM
oronnya oronnya is offline
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Ok, I absolutely love this thread.. I really hope that Shakib get to read this ..

There is no question about how much we fans love him.. Shakib is our pride and more importantly it's him who is bearing the burden of the team on his young shoulder for quite a long time now and performing day in and day out.. We are grateful and happy for that ..

BUT I do want Shakib to go over and above to use his potential to the fullest.. It's not our demand it's a request from the fans to our very best player !!!

Ian pointed out some nice points that what is the average of some other world class batsman and where does he stand.. Yes, he is an all rounder but we can clearly see that he is sooooo capable of getting to an average 45+ .. I always wonder why does both Shakib and Tamim gets out just after reaching their 50s .. I think we get the answer after looking at them at the field.. Both of them looks sooo damn tired after playing 20 over or so that you can tell from their body language that they will get out soon and we know that most of the time they gets out to some silly mistakes on their end.. They just lose their concentration.. They really don't look fit to stay at the middle for full 50 overs and more (for test)

I don't agree with the point that Shakib needs to train more to set an example.. As someone said above that a well determined and ambitious cricketer will very well know what to follow from a great player and what not to.. Shakib himself said he follows many cricketers for different reasons but he doesn't have a role model.. So Shakib doesn't have to be a role model and do stuffs so other doesn't get a wrong message..Every player should be responsible for their own act and they shouldn't blame their role model because if they do their career is doomed then and there.. Like if Shahadat, Ashraful, or some others points finger at Shakib and say he didn't train then why should we? Yes that's a valid allegation but hey first put your acts together before pointing your finger at someone.. If you don't want to work hard and bring in an excuse of some best players of the team not training then loss is yours.. Cause not everyone can afford to skip training and put up an excellent show on the field..

So my point is Shakib doesn't have to work harder to just set an example rather he should work hard for his own betterment, for him to reach the heights of some greats of the game .. Once he does that the example will be automatically set..

What I believe If I reach one summit I should aim for the next big one.. Just push yourself to the extent that you surpass all the records.. You should never get complacent and satisfied.. I know Shakib is never satisfied with his performance that's the reason he is doing so well but if you are capable of so much then why not push yourself little more to achieve more !!
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Last edited by oronnya; May 8, 2012 at 10:58 AM..
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  #57  
Old May 8, 2012, 01:25 PM
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cricket_pagol cricket_pagol is offline
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Excellent thread! Coach, thanks for the fascinating insights.
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  #58  
Old May 8, 2012, 01:48 PM
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As a nation, we are generally quite lazy. all we like to do is eat Bhaat and take naps. thats the problem.
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  #59  
Old May 8, 2012, 01:50 PM
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The staggering number of comments “to leave Shakib alone due to his class as a player despite his laziness to train” is the under lying reason why Bangladesh as a country is at the bottom of the list of everything that can be measured.
People of our culture just do not get it. There is no downside of “hard work”. If one is good at something they will get better by working hard. It is as simple as that. Whether it is Shakib or Tendulkar, as soon as a player forgets the value of hard work, they jeopardize their very existence. Yes talent can make up for lack of hard work to earn certain achievements, in Shakib’s case #1 all rounder, but is that the best he could do? What’s wrong with working hard and fulfilling his true potential?

And for some of the hard headed folks, this thread may have started with Shakib but it’s not just about Shakib. He’s simply a metaphor. Nobody, how great they are at whatever they do, should devalue the meaning of hard-work, especially when they become the inspiration of a nation.

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  #60  
Old May 8, 2012, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oronnya
Ok, I absolutely love this thread.. I really hope that Shakib get to read this ..

There is no question about how much we fans love him.. Shakib is our pride and more importantly it's him who is bearing the burden of the team on his young shoulder for quite a long time now and performing day in and day out.. We are grateful and happy for that ..

BUT I do want Shakib to go over and above to use his potential to the fullest.. It's not our demand it's a request from the fans to our very best player !!!

Ian pointed out some nice points that what is the average of some other world class batsman and where does he stand.. Yes, he is an all rounder but we can clearly see that he is sooooo capable of getting to an average 45+ .. I always wonder why does both Shakib and Tamim gets out just after reaching their 50s .. I think we get the answer after looking at them at the field.. Both of them looks sooo damn tired after playing 20 over or so that you can tell from their body language that they will get out soon and we know that most of the time they gets out to some silly mistakes on their end.. They just lose their concentration.. They really don't look fit to stay at the middle for full 50 overs and more (for test)

I don't agree with the point that Shakib needs to train more to set an example.. As someone said above that a well determined and ambitious cricketer will very well know what to follow from a great player and what not to.. Shakib himself said he follows many cricketers for different reasons but he doesn't have a role model.. So Shakib doesn't have to be a role model and do stuffs so other doesn't get a wrong message..Every player should be responsible for their own act and they shouldn't blame their role model because if they do their career is doomed then and there.. Like if Shahadat, Ashraful, or some others points finger at Shakib and say he didn't train then why should we? Yes that's a valid allegation but hey first put your acts together before pointing your finger at someone.. If you don't want to work hard and bring in an excuse of some best players of the team not training then loss is yours.. Cause not everyone can afford to skip training and put up an excellent show on the field..

So my point is Shakib doesn't have to work harder to just set an example rather he should work hard for his own betterment, for him to reach the heights of some greats of the game .. Once he does that the example will be automatically set..

What I believe If I reach one summit I should aim for the next big one.. Just push yourself to the extent that you surpass all the records.. You should never get complacent and satisfied.. I know Shakib is never satisfied with his performance that's the reason he is doing so well but if you are capable of so much then why not push yourself little more to achieve more !!
Oh good you came. You should see all the above posts.....
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  #61  
Old May 8, 2012, 03:06 PM
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mufi_02 mufi_02 is offline
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But who said Shakib is lazy? Do we have any reliable source ? I won't take those KK articles for granted. Until I know he is lazy for sure, I don't want to comment
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  #62  
Old May 8, 2012, 03:35 PM
oronnya oronnya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mufi_02
But who said Shakib is lazy? Do we have any reliable source ? I won't take those KK articles for granted. Until I know he is lazy for sure, I don't want to comment
he he .. Shakib himself admitted it and all his coaches complained about it.. But I'm sure he realizes the importance of hard work now.. specially spending time at the KKR dressing room might have helped him realize how much more effort does the great players like Kallis/Gautam has to put in to go beyond their limit ..

If Shakib was 35 I wouldn't have bothered with the laziness.. But 25 is a prime age for any cricketer to flourish and Shakib has the ability to be an overachiever !!! Just imagine if he can be number 1 all rounder in both ODI and test with this much effort then how much more can he achieve by pushing himself further..It will be good for him and good for Bangladesh
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  #63  
Old May 8, 2012, 06:21 PM
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Take that Dilscoop. Great thread turning out to be. Good posts by Ian and Doc.

10,000 hours? I can never be a good mathematician (prolly in my entire life i spend like 50 hours)... Also in my ex college they used to say for every 1 hour in class 3 hours must be spent in homework. Psshh.. Guess ultimately it's all about stinky, gamcha morani perspiration and good work ethics like Japanese, Singaporean, etc.. :P

I was about to cite Perelman as a counterexample who solved Poincare in like 2 years but guess it was AFTER he got his phd. So he did basically have that many hours clocking in at the end.

This thread is making my aware of my own laziness. (But Manjerekar other day also emphasized loving what you do and when Tendulkar used to clock in like 8 hours a day, he absolutely enjoyed the game). So training cannot be chore either...

Gopal's rec. regiment? Play the BD national team against Steelers, Rams or Saints. Ash can be the QB
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  #64  
Old May 8, 2012, 06:59 PM
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I still have issue with the idea behind this thread. Just cuz couple of big names posted some big posts doesn't change that. And they were about Bangladeshis' work ethics. But Shakib is different and that's why he is where he is today.

On topic, you guys sound like Shakib turned into a out of form and shape Akrazamul Haq. I'm "known" for being critical, even I think this is way too critical. Way to take things too literally. We have nothing to worry about (yet).

As for role models, "if you need a role model to live your life, then you shouldn't have been born."

Shakib doesn't have a role model either. They are overrated .
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  #65  
Old May 8, 2012, 07:05 PM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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tbh senior players can have a big influence on the younger ones, of course the really focused youngsters will do their own thing anyway and keep on track but it does influence some in a big way.
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  #66  
Old May 8, 2012, 10:40 PM
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Roey Haque Roey Haque is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
I heard that Sakib practices cricket via Playstation.

rumeur
My jaw dropped. You should sell this one liner. So damn funny!
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  #67  
Old May 8, 2012, 10:45 PM
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Roey Haque Roey Haque is offline
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Of course. Not just Shakib, but the Bd team is historically lazy. However, we should be happy that we don't have lazy kingpins like habibul Bashar in our team anymore. That guy was from the kingdom of sloths. As to why the players are lazy, I really don't know. How do them Indians do it? Is it the pressure of having your house lit on fire in case of a bad performance? In that case, a few tanks of kerosene and a butterfly matchbox should come in handy. If pride and glory doesn't motivate you to stay active, fear will!
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  #68  
Old May 8, 2012, 10:52 PM
oronnya oronnya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roey Haque
Of course. Not just Shakib, but the Bd team is historically lazy. However, we should be happy that we don't have lazy kingpins like habibul Bashar in our team anymore. That guy was from the kingdom of sloths. As to why the players are lazy, I really don't know. How do them Indians do it? Is it the pressure of having your house lit on fire in case of a bad performance? In that case, a few tanks of kerosene and a butterfly matchbox should come in handy. If pride and glory doesn't motivate you to stay active, fear will!
BD people by nature are little lazy.. We need bhaat and bhaat ghum..the boys brought up in Dhaka literally has no clue about how to stay organized or do some regular household work (ok there are exceptions) !! chhele poralikha kinba jekono kaaje ettu bhalo korle kothai nei "baba tomar kichhu kora lagbe na tumi poro" .. I think nowadays the parents do the same with their daughter as well..
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  #69  
Old May 8, 2012, 11:44 PM
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In sporting parlance there is a term called "gamer". It's essentially someone who doesn't seem to take practice seriously but on game-day is switched ON. Ian Botham is famous example of that. The guy boozed, partied hard, showed up for practices with wicked hangovers and would still put in world class performances. Perhaps our Shakib is one such gamer - however, since he has NOT showed that kind of single-handed dominance of a Botham, he is better served trying out what the rest of the world does - i.e practice till the cows come home.
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  #70  
Old May 9, 2012, 12:41 AM
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I am too lazy to post something meaningful here....
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  #71  
Old May 9, 2012, 12:46 AM
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I'm simply not getting the fact what's wrong with trying your best? The importance of training can clearly not be overstated?
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  #72  
Old May 9, 2012, 01:08 AM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RazabQ
In sporting parlance there is a term called "gamer". It's essentially someone who doesn't seem to take practice seriously but on game-day is switched ON. Ian Botham is famous example of that. The guy boozed, partied hard, showed up for practices with wicked hangovers and would still put in world class performances. Perhaps our Shakib is one such gamer - however, since he has NOT showed that kind of single-handed dominance of a Botham, he is better served trying out what the rest of the world does - i.e practice till the cows come home.
the great aussie allrounder keith miller did similar things. or so i've read. one thing that i read about miller is that he turned up to a test match with a huge hangover and got 7 wickets before lunch.

anyway there is a point to this thread, the reason this thread was started was to discuss the influence shakib has on the team due to his non-desire to train. YES, surely that does impact the younger players and other players in the team, however any youngster who really wants it will keep his focus and train regardless of what the senior players are doing. in saying that no doubt a few will be impacted negatively by something like this.
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  #73  
Old May 9, 2012, 01:40 AM
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Ian Pont Ian Pont is offline
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Whether people like it or not, everyone hangs on what 'star players' do or don't do. They are copied. Just look at the folk on here who have Shakib's pic as their avatar as a tiny example. It's why bat manufacturers pay so much for players to use bats - because others will copy that and buy that product.

The same follows if someone trains the way they train. Others see this and assume it's OK to be the same way. The influence of a 'star' is felt long and deep. If you say to a player: "you should be working hard in the gym and in nets" he can reply "Why should I? Shakib doesn't".

I feel people here underestimate the power of having an icon layer in the Bangladesh team on the others and youngsters coming into the sport. You only have to look at how fans go mad when Shakib even waves, to realise that.

I agree with the comment about about certain players being game players. But don't confuse PREPARATION for a match with DEVELOPING TALENT. Botham (who I know well), worked extremely hard at his game to get to this level and then enjoyed his life as he went along.

And we have to remember this was the 1980's when gym work was never done by any player and there was a drinking and smoking culture in society generally. When Keith Miller played (1950s) there was no sort of emphasis on fitness at all. There were still 'gentlemen and players' with a private school mentality and the MCC running cricket. Bangladesh didn't even exist so we are talking of a time more than 60 years ago. 2012 is a completely different time. Sir Ian wouldn't last in today's physical world as he was and he would have had to have done the training. That's because the England team require it or you miss out, regardless. Samit Patel comes to mind....

I just wonder what positive message it would send to everyone if we saw Shakib running laps of the pitch, working out in the gym, bowling at a set of stumps in the nets on his own and being the first to, and last from practice? As others have said here, he is where he is without doing any of this.

There is either a team work ethic or there is not. Imagine how you might feel as coach if certain senior players were having lunch while the rest of the team trained hard, as an example situation? If you guys recall this was allegedly one incident in a string of events that led to Shakib and Tamim losing their captaincy and vice captaincy following the awful and ill-fated Zimbabwe tour.

It's all in the past and everyone has moved on but Stuart will have had to deal with those moments. For individuals who are talented then, should a coach/team/management make allowances and let them be lazy?

This isn't just about one player in the end. I think it's about being a team. The team is always far bigger than any individual.
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  #74  
Old May 9, 2012, 01:52 AM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Australia
Favorite Player: Mike Procter
Posts: 8,902

yes it's not good at all that senior players or any player/s for that matter are having lunch while the rest train. on top of that hearing that grant has made time to work with players and they just snub him and don't turn up is horrible and ridiculous. if you don't want to be professional get lost because those coaches could be helping players who actually want to be helped and want to improve and work hard.

i can just imagine everyone blaming grant for the players being unfit when he's put aside time only for them to not turn up and for him to take the heat when they aren't properly fit.
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Old May 9, 2012, 02:01 AM
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BengaliPagol BengaliPagol is offline
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Join Date: February 4, 2012
Location: Wagga Wagga, NSW
Favorite Player: Luka Modric
Posts: 5,384

We wonder why talented players like aftab, alok etc become lost. I think laziness is the key. Aftab said he doesnt like to train. Is laziness why we lose so many talented players? Is laziness why we are ranked below the big guys in the world. I think so.
We are really lucky that Shakib is overly talented or else we wouldve lost him with the other ones.

We wonder why Tamim keeps doing the same mistakes. Is it because they dont work hard enough on improvement? Is this why Bangladesh arent a consistent team?

Many talented bd players become lost and have a fall from grace. We have to admit that the list is never ending. Is this because they become lazy? I think so, it makes sense why so many talented players seem to become myths.

It all comes together.
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