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  #1  
Old June 24, 2012, 06:43 PM
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Default Egypt Becomes First Arab Democracy

With their own elected president. Wonder if anything will actually change...
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  #2  
Old June 24, 2012, 07:19 PM
Zunaid Zunaid is offline
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Long way to go. The military council is still in very much control. Lebanon is a much better example of Arab democracy than any other Arab country,
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  #3  
Old June 24, 2012, 07:29 PM
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Infact military has taken away a lot of presidential powers recently and they are supervising the constitution being written at the moment, so you can understand what's coming. Their struggle is far from over...there could be a huge confrontation between BH and the Mil at some point in not so distant future....but definitely a historical milestone for Egyptian democracy.
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Old June 24, 2012, 09:05 PM
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Ekhon western world-er pindi chotkabey...BBC to khali Islamist Islamist kortasey - democratically elected Islamist government - aito CIA-er ekhon kaaj barlo arki. Bhaloi Babsha.
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  #5  
Old June 24, 2012, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunaid
Long way to go. The military council is still in very much control. Lebanon is a much better example of Arab democracy than any other Arab country,
Exactly. It's a democracy despite tremendous adversity with aggressive neighbors with a history of bad intentions, and a deeply fragmented society trying their best to find peace and unity after all these years.
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Old June 25, 2012, 01:02 AM
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Lolocracy is more like it. They took away all significant executive powers that the president had. Forced the courts to dissolve the parliament, and the SCAF is completely independent of civilian oversight.

Their 'revolution' got jacked by the military.

If anything this should be a case study into how to circumvent revolutions successfully.
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  #7  
Old June 25, 2012, 01:45 AM
Zunaid Zunaid is offline
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You mean Lobocracy. They have just lobotomized the revolution.

The revolution is dead.
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  #8  
Old June 25, 2012, 04:51 AM
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The president without elected parliament, more importantly without legislative constitution means he only got a chair, a table and few news paper in his office to work with. Upcoming constitution will be interesting to see, may decide Eygpt's road to liberal/secular democracy or not.
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Old June 25, 2012, 07:19 AM
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Looking at Bangladesh, I can tell it is more important that who is in charge than what form of government it is. Egyptian army's role during the revolution tells me, they are not the same thing as Mubarak. A combination may not work in the long run, but for now, it may, just may, not be a bad thing. I am willing to give it a try.
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Old June 25, 2012, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubu
Looking at Bangladesh, I can tell it is more important that who is in charge than what form of government it is. Egyptian army's role during the revolution tells me, they are not the same thing as Mubarak. A combination may not work in the long run, but for now, it may, just may, not be a bad thing. I am willing to give it a try.
Having been to Egypt, Bangladesh is a million times better off politically than Egypt is. Die hard AL supporter here, but I've got no problems saying the Jamaat-BNP jote can come to power for the next 20 years, and we'll still be better than Egypt.

As for the army and their role during the revolution... - that was all about self preservation. Self interest and US aid prevented them from doing a Gaddafi or Bashar. But they've shown their true colors through their actions since the revolution, specially the last month or so.

The Army and Mubarak are one and the same.

They have absolutely NOTHING other than their tourism and aid from the US going for them.
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Old June 25, 2012, 07:54 AM
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Lines like "I am a diehard fan of [insert your Bangladeshi political party here]", is a turn off for me to have a discussion. However, I feel like I need to make a few points here to make my earlier post clear.

Democracy only works if at least 50% of the population is educated and knows what the heck they are voting for. And, it is the best form of government for already developed countries. But for poor uneducated countries, democracy does not do kick start of any kind. What works better is a strong person at the top who loves his/her country and willing to do the right thing. Yeah, I know absolute power corrupts absolutely, but there has been several examples of one good leader advancing an entire country (where most poor democracies are either improving at a very slow rate or going down like a coin in the water). If the caretaker gov was in power for another 5 years in Bangladesh, I think we would have been way better off. We lost that chance.

I don't know how this will apply to Egypt. But the whole point is, democracy should not the end goal of any country. Prosperity and peaceful life should be. While people are educated and country is already developed, democracy does a great job of preserving it, but it does very little to nothing to change the life of poor countries. To break the cycle of poverty(what Egypt is hoping for), you need a strong hand driving the bus without anyone telling from behind what to do. And yes, I know that, if that hand is evil, it will be much easier to drive it to the ditch.
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  #12  
Old June 25, 2012, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubu
Lines like "I am a diehard fan of [insert your Bangladeshi political party here]", is a turn off for me to have a discussion. However, I feel like I need to make a few points here to make my earlier post clear.

Democracy only works if at least 50% of the population is educated and knows what the heck they are voting for. And, it is the best form of government for already developed countries. But for poor uneducated countries, democracy does not do kick start of any kind. What works better is a strong person at the top who loves his/her country and willing to do the right thing. Yeah, I know absolute power corrupts absolutely, but there has been several examples of one good leader advancing an entire country (where most poor democracies are either improving at a very slow rate or going down like a coin in the water). If the caretaker gov was in power for another 5 years in Bangladesh, I think we would have been way better off. We lost that chance.

I don't know how this will apply to Egypt. But the whole point is, democracy should not the end goal of any country. Prosperity and peaceful life should be. While people are educated and country is already developed, democracy does a great job of preserving it, but it does very little to nothing to change the life of poor countries. To break the cycle of poverty(what Egypt is hoping for), you need a strong hand driving the bus without anyone telling from behind what to do. And yes, I know that, if that hand is evil, it will be much easier to drive it to the ditch.
I don't think pinning your flag to a particular mast is a bad thing(re being a supporter of a particular party - rightly or wrongly they all stand for certain things. Things 'we' identify with)

Rubu bhai - Are you a frequent visitor to Bangladesh? The caretaker govt did more harm than you can imagine.* Just about everything they did was a facade...they accomplished nothing, and after the initial euphoria, the pettiness with which they went about doing their job, made them a complete and utter joke.

People point to Mahathir as an example of a 'benevolent dictator' - ask non-Malay Malaysians if they feel the same way. Ask anyone that dared to speak ill of his deeds....

Strongmen bring about peace, peace bought with the price of freedom of expression and dissent. Peace bought by playing off one group against another...Peace bought with corruption not just in terms of money, but morals and ideals.

Peace at that price is not worth having, as far as I'm concerned.

Emancipation, be it economic or political is rarely clean, it's always been messy and will always be so.

*Couple of not so great personal experiences at the behest of the caretaker govt and their largess towards the people of this country.
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  #13  
Old June 25, 2012, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by F6_Turbo
Peace at that price is not worth having, as far as I'm concerned.
From what I seem to hear, Bangladeshis don't have peace of mind. Generally speaking. At least 80% of the population doesn't. In some ways perhaps a flawed democracy is worse than a dictatorship because I feel like Hasina/Khaleda get away with a lot and don't face the music because they are "democratically elected" tyrants and not military-backed dictators or Islamic fundamentalists. It seems to me the only difference between Hasina/Khaleda and Mubarak is that Mubarak never took turns with someone else.
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Old June 25, 2012, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubu
Lines like "I am a diehard fan of [insert your Bangladeshi political party here]", is a turn off for me to have a discussion. However, I feel like I need to make a few points here to make my earlier post clear.

Democracy only works if at least 50% of the population is educated and knows what the heck they are voting for. And, it is the best form of government for already developed countries. But for poor uneducated countries, democracy does not do kick start of any kind. What works better is a strong person at the top who loves his/her country and willing to do the right thing. Yeah, I know absolute power corrupts absolutely, but there has been several examples of one good leader advancing an entire country (where most poor democracies are either improving at a very slow rate or going down like a coin in the water). If the caretaker gov was in power for another 5 years in Bangladesh, I think we would have been way better off. We lost that chance.

I don't know how this will apply to Egypt. But the whole point is, democracy should not the end goal of any country. Prosperity and peaceful life should be. While people are educated and country is already developed, democracy does a great job of preserving it, but it does very little to nothing to change the life of poor countries. To break the cycle of poverty(what Egypt is hoping for), you need a strong hand driving the bus without anyone telling from behind what to do. And yes, I know that, if that hand is evil, it will be much easier to drive it to the ditch.
I'm inclined to agree.
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  #15  
Old June 26, 2012, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubu
But for poor uneducated countries, democracy does not do kick start of any kind. What works better is a strong person at the top who loves his/her country and willing to do the right thing. Yeah, I know absolute power corrupts absolutely, but there has been several examples of one good leader advancing an entire country (where most poor democracies are either improving at a very slow rate or going down like a coin in the water).

Can we have some examples of such benevolent leaders?

When it comes to such leaders, there are often 3 broad categories

1) Bad autocrats. E.g. many African leaders, Suharto, North Korean leaders,

2) Autocrats who arent essentially bad, many people think they are very good, but they end up doing much more harm than good. E.g. Gaddafi, ZAB,

3) Genuinely good autocrats who do more good than harm e.g. LKY

Its obvious that the number we can place in (3) is much less compared to the others.

Many people, including someof us Bangladeshis have an over romanticised view of a dictator who comes to power, executes all the "bad" people, and turns us into a strong country in 20 years.
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Old June 26, 2012, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
From what I seem to hear, Bangladeshis don't have peace of mind. Generally speaking. At least 80% of the population doesn't. In some ways perhaps a flawed democracy is worse than a dictatorship because I feel like Hasina/Khaleda get away with a lot and don't face the music because they are "democratically elected" tyrants and not military-backed dictators or Islamic fundamentalists. It seems to me the only difference between Hasina/Khaleda and Mubarak is that Mubarak never took turns with someone else.
Generally speaking 80% of the people in India and I'd say 70% of the people in the Euro Zone don't have peace of mind...

Ask the people of Pakistan how much piece of mind they've had with their military strongmen....sure they build a few roads(zia/ershad), but at what price?

People in this country are far better off than they were at any time in the past(our democratically elected governments have made and will continue to make a lot of mistakes, but they've also done a lot of good), but despite everything, there is progress being made everyday.

People like to whinge, that's human nature, and in this country, we have a serious issue with personal responsibility...we want Hasina/Khaleda to do EVERYTHING.

As for the difference between Hasina/Khaleda and Mubarak, how about the difference between day and night?

We've had freedom of press and assembly in this country for a long time now, and I don't recall Mubarak or anyone of his ilk allowing the kind of robust criticism our governments allow.

You think Mubarak allowed political rallies where hundreds of thousands of people gathered and the opposition leaders spoke of nothing but toppling him?(something which Hasina/Khaleda did/do in a weekly basis)

It's far from perfect(FAR), but Hasina/Khaleda are answerable to the people to a certain extent.
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Old June 26, 2012, 02:31 AM
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As popular as the perverse elitist fantasy may be amongst its advocates, the concept of a "benevolent dictator" is an oxymoron if you look closely at examples provided in modern history. Absolute power without popular accountability will corrupt absolutely. Not a cliché.

Bangladeshis throughout our history, starting from the popular election of Emperor Gopal I in 750AD and the glorious beginning of the PALA EMPIRE, have taken their right to popular representation very seriously. This has been aptly demonstrated in every popular struggle in Bangladesh, all of which have been PROUDLY democratic in nature. That's what we are and better get used to it if you're an apologist for the other side! We don't need your alleged insight into anything, THANK YOU!

Dictators from Ayub Khan, to Yahiya Khan, to (Sheikh Shaheb and Sheikh Moni) BAKSAL, to Zia, to Ershad to (Fakhruddin and Moinuddin) 1/11 HAD to succumb to popular will one way or another, and usurpers like that and their sympathizers have no place in our popular political consciousness. People have the right to be wrong, and you don't believe that, good luck with your "fellow" country folks in Bangladesh.

The mitigating factors that subvert democracy in the country all have everything to do with undemocratic practices. The solution therefore is MORE DEMOCRATIC PRACTICES through democratic reform, not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Ironic that our "uneducated" people know that but obviously not elements of the fence sitting and tragically misguided elite.

The idea that you need a "strong man" getting "basic stuff" done from a "bully pulpit" as a precondition to development in developing countries is also bogus. Look at the sheer number of dictators in Asia, Africa and Latin America, all benevolent in their own eyes and those of their supporters, and look at where their countries are with regards to various development indexes. Now compare those to ours since the defeat of Ershad.

Real democratic reform, and I've intimately observed them with my own eyes over a period of 15 years in the countries I'm about to mention, can lead to greatly accelerated common prosperity as they have in Chile, South Korea, Thailand and nowadays, South Africa, Mozambique and Ghana.
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  #18  
Old June 26, 2012, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohel NR
As popular as the perverse elitist fantasy may be amongst its advocates, the concept of a "benevolent dictator" is an oxymoron if you look closely at examples provided in modern history.
The idea that you need a "strong man" getting "basic stuff" done from a "bully pulpit" as a precondition to development in developing countries is also bogus. Look at the sheer number of dictators in Asia, Africa and Latin America, all benevolent in their own eyes and those of their supporters, and look at where their countries are with regards to various development indexes. Now compare those to ours since the defeat of Ershad.
.
The examples that advocates of the "benevolent dictator" like to give include the worn out example of Mahathir, Khomeini, the Saudi kings and so on.

The more Islamic minded ones look up to Zia ul Haq as an ideal dictator who would have ensured Pakistan conquer the entire of Central Asia under the name of Islam if it was not for the CIA. By extension, Bangladesh supposedly needs someone who will have public floggings and women newsreaders wearing dupattas on TV

I wish i had a dollar for every time a Deshi comes to Dubai, looks at the clean roads and people respecting red lights and says "amader deshe jodi erokom bhalo raja thakto, ar kono kichur dorkar chilo na, ei hasina/khaleda deshke dhnogsho kore bla bla bla".
The idea being a dubious one in that the Gulf is cleaner and has lesser crime because they are not democracies: overlooking the contribution of crude oil....

I can imagine similar examples used by visitors to Singapore, which again is an erroneous comparison due to 101 differences between them and us as countries.


I have witnessed similar complaints by Indians, some of whom feel India would have been far better off if they had a dictatorship like China where the govt isnt stopped by pesky laws and can bulldoze through things for the "good of the nation" even if people oppose it.
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Old June 26, 2012, 03:30 AM
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^Probably the same people who think the millions of Arab youth involved in the Arab spring all over the Middle East and North Africa are American agents.
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Old June 26, 2012, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by F6_Turbo
Generally speaking 80% of the people in India and I'd say 70% of the people in the Euro Zone don't have peace of mind...

Ask the people of Pakistan how much piece of mind they've had with their military strongmen....sure they build a few roads(zia/ershad), but at what price?

People in this country are far better off than they were at any time in the past(our democratically elected governments have made and will continue to make a lot of mistakes, but they've also done a lot of good), but despite everything, there is progress being made everyday.

People like to whinge, that's human nature, and in this country, we have a serious issue with personal responsibility...we want Hasina/Khaleda to do EVERYTHING.

As for the difference between Hasina/Khaleda and Mubarak, how about the difference between day and night?

We've had freedom of press and assembly in this country for a long time now, and I don't recall Mubarak or anyone of his ilk allowing the kind of robust criticism our governments allow.

You think Mubarak allowed political rallies where hundreds of thousands of people gathered and the opposition leaders spoke of nothing but toppling him?(something which Hasina/Khaleda did/do in a weekly basis)

It's far from perfect(FAR), but Hasina/Khaleda are answerable to the people to a certain extent.
I disagree on a lot of key fronts:

1) Eurozone + Canada: Vast majority of citizens enjoy peace of mind unheard of anywhere else, including America. Check their crime rates, check their infant mortality rates, and check their per capita GDPs. Ahead of the world in virtually every regard. Yes large segments of the UK, France, Germany are marginalized, but these are almost exclusively Muslim immigrants - but thats a whole different argument...tribal folks in the Hill Tracts and Bihari refugees have it just as bad if not worse in BD. The native, white, Euro populations of these countries live quite well. I think Greece and Italy are having some economic strife, but the main countries UK/France/Germany are doing quite well.

2) India and Pakistan can't be cited as examples because they are still very poor countries compared to EU.

3) Hasina/Khaleda are answerable in any real way shape or form. They keep getting elected whereas eventually Mubarak was sentenced to life in prison.
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Old June 26, 2012, 11:20 PM
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Alhamdulillah! I am very happy for Egypt and her people!

Mohammad Morsi, had he not won, the American media would have been advertised this victory like crazy. because someone from the Muslim Brotherhood won, The American media has been very silent!

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Old June 26, 2012, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
3) Hasina/Khaleda are answerable in any real way shape or form. They keep getting elected whereas eventually Mubarak was sentenced to life in prison.
I think what Sohel NR and Turbo bhai are talking about is that there is a measure of political criticism in the media in Bangladesh that is far beyond anything possible during Mubarak's uninterrupted 31 year Presidential reign. In Bangladesh, opposition rallies come out in strength every other week and journalists tear apart incumbent governments regularly in newspapers, blogs, etc. (The extent to which this exerts an influence over the incumbents is another matter...)

The fact that Mubarak was only served a life sentence after a protracted, tumultuous revolution is itself illustrative of the autocratic nature of his rule. At least in Bangladesh there is generally a turnover of power every 5 years - no matter the many difficulties entailed.
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Old June 26, 2012, 11:42 PM
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On an unrelated note, did anyone think about "The Autumn of the Patriarch" by Gabriel Garcia Marquez when Mubarak and Gaddafi fell??
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Old June 26, 2012, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Navo
On an unrelated note, did anyone think about "The Autumn of the Patriarch" by Gabriel Garcia Marquez when Mubarak and Gaddafi fell??
That's one of my favorite novels of all time, if not THE favorite. Perfect example of a superbly descriptive and mult-layered narrative tempered by deep poetic resonance. I feel it to be the apex of written language that way. The narrative becomes almost secondary to the incredible beauty and power of the composition done in long paragraphs and extended sentences perfect in rhythm and flow.

GGM is blessed by GOD.

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“an old man with no destiny with our never knowing who he was, or what he was like, or even if he was only a figment of the imagination, a comic tyrant who never knew where the reverse side was and where the right of this life which we loved with an insatiable passion that you never dared even to imagine out of the fear of knowing what we knew only too well that it was arduous and ephemeral but there wasn't any other, general, because we knew who we were while he was left never knowing it forever with the soft whistle of his rupture of a dead old man cut off at the roots by the slash of death, flying through the dark sound of the last frozen leaves of his autumn toward the homeland of shadows of the truth of oblivion, clinging to his fear of the rotting cloth of death's hooded cassock and alien to the clamor of the frantic crowds who took to the streets singing hymns of joy at the jubilant news of his death and alien forevermore to the music of liberation and the rockets of jubilation and the bells of glory that announced to the world the good news that the uncountable time of eternity had come to an end.”
That being said, Mubarak wasn't quite the General who ruled since "time immemorial" and over countless generations of his subjects. The General wasn't toppled either. Nasser on the other hand had the mythical and complex stature to become that alongside guys like Franco and Trujillo, had he gone on to rule for a long time before death at a decrepit old age. Had Sheikh Shaheb -- not the pre-independence Liberator of Bangladesh but the post Liberation BAKSAL dictator -- gone on to rule for 41 years before dying a peaceful death, he'd been the Bangladeshi equivalent.
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Old June 27, 2012, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Navo
I think what Sohel NR and Turbo bhai are talking about is that there is a measure of political criticism in the media in Bangladesh that is far beyond anything possible during Mubarak's uninterrupted 31 year Presidential reign. In Bangladesh, opposition rallies come out in strength every other week and journalists tear apart incumbent governments regularly in newspapers, blogs, etc. (The extent to which this exerts an influence over the incumbents is another matter...)

The fact that Mubarak was only served a life sentence after a protracted, tumultuous revolution is itself illustrative of the autocratic nature of his rule. At least in Bangladesh there is generally a turnover of power every 5 years - no matter the many difficulties entailed.
I tend to agree with Rubu bhai...ultimate goal should be peace and prosperity. That is a government's job to provide for people. If I don't have peace of mind or security, what will I do with all the money in the world? Similarly if I am content, I don't need much money. A government's job is not to allow dissent, or free speech, or this or that...a real government which does its job wouldn't be criticized nor need to be petitioned. Unlike most educated Westerners, I don't really care about democracy as some panacea meant to cure all ills, because just as there are no "benevolent dictators" there is no real democracy in existance either. Its a utopic ideal that cannot ever translate on the ground. Modernists and secularists always argue against a Khilafat on the grounds that its based on a utopian ideal that can't ever be realized but fail to realize "democracy" is the exact same thing. Because in a democracy what happens is politicians will pound out buzz words relating to their agendas, secure votes from their bases, and then get free reign to do whatever they want. America is a prime example of such. The European model is the best available model, and it too has its pros and cons. True progressive leadership requires only 2 qualities: competence and benevolence. Democracy does not guarantee that nor does it have a monopoly on it either.
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