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  #151  
Old October 11, 2012, 11:06 AM
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BANFAN BANFAN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gowza
have to say i disagree to a degree. in early stages of learning a sport you can self learn just by watching professionals. i mean do you know how i learnt to bowl a cricket ball? by watching my older brother do it, he grabbed a ball told me to bowl it, i told him i didn't know how so he grabbed the ball off me and said this is how you do it and he bowled one down the other end of the driveway. that was my first lesson, and i'll tell you what, i certainly didn't get any coaching tips from my school coaches, so the way i learnt was from watching others and by my own observation with various things i tried.

same thing went for tennis, one day i just picked up a racket and started hitting, all i had done was watch some aussie open tennis, then once i realised i enjoyed it i went to get some ecoaching and they figured i was already playing competition tennis and had already been coached, a couple of months after that i was coaching myself.
Well i dont disagree to that. Self learning by observation is very much possible, but that's ok for amateurs. You really can't claim that you learnt to bowl or play tennis at the pro level. The physio dynamics you taught your muscles by repeated actions aren't good enough to develop you as a pro, so your growth will stop after certain stage, depending on the perfection of those you naturally picked. That's the limitation of learning without the assistance of a pro at an early age. That's also the reason why a lot of talented self taught sports personalities of our country don't progress beyond certain level, even under the best of the coaches. Because you taught yourself the wrong things and its very difficult to undo all those and teach you everything afresh. That takes some doing for anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gowza
if someone is naturally talented at something, and if they watch others and pay attention and learn from themselves and by watching others you can become decent. now i certainly haven't played any pro level sport, but i became an A grade tennis player with minimal coaching and was in my 2nd XI school cricket team and that was after previous injuries and during current ones where i couldn't even bowl to my fullest.
The word naturally tellented generally means, that he got a good lesson in early age/he luckily picked most of the right things at an early age, during self learning. So he made a natural progression to a class athlete under an expert in a professional environment later. But for that, you need to have the proper knowledge available at every level, that's what we mean when we talk about developing a culture of some sports. So, it becomes easy for the self learners to learn the right things at an early age.

If you look at the countries who are successful with sports without a culture of it, they pick guys at a very early stage to teach... And countries like Pakistan produce natural pacers because they have a culture of it, meaning the knowledge is available at very lower levels, for the self learners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reverse_swing
...can't say it better. But you also need to work very hard and practise a lot from your early days. The value of expertise is something we spend a lot of time thinking about and if you’ve read the Malcolm Gladwell book Outliers, you’re familiar with the idea that it takes thousands of hours to perfect a skill. Having years (and thousands of hours) of dedicated focus and practice within a specific field is obviously highly valuable and allows a person to have a unique, proprietary perspective on that area.
Thanks. I agree to you completely and that's a more than useful book. Surely, Once you have the dynamics, you need to practice practice and practice to teach your body and brain. More you practice, more natural the skill becomes. Presence of Professionals provide the environment to control these practice sessions, so that the dynamics don't get changed in the process of repeatations.

Repeatative Practice is the difference between Knowledge and Skill... Many of our bowlers have the knowledge how to bowl a reverse, but they haven't acquired the skill through practice....,

Last edited by BANFAN; October 11, 2012 at 11:42 AM..
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  #152  
Old October 11, 2012, 04:23 PM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BANFAN
Well i dont disagree to that. Self learning by observation is very much possible, but that's ok for amateurs. You really can't claim that you learnt to bowl or play tennis at the pro level. The physio dynamics you taught your muscles by repeated actions aren't good enough to develop you as a pro, so your growth will stop after certain stage, depending on the perfection of those you naturally picked. That's the limitation of learning without the assistance of a pro at an early age. That's also the reason why a lot of talented self taught sports personalities of our country don't progress beyond certain level, even under the best of the coaches. Because you taught yourself the wrong things and its very difficult to undo all those and teach you everything afresh. That takes some doing for anyone.



The word naturally tellented generally means, that he got a good lesson in early age/he luckily picked most of the right things at an early age, during self learning. So he made a natural progression to a class athlete under an expert in a professional environment later. But for that, you need to have the proper knowledge available at every level, that's what we mean when we talk about developing a culture of some sports. So, it becomes easy for the self learners to learn the right things at an early age.

If you look at the countries who are successful with sports without a culture of it, they pick guys at a very early stage to teach... And countries like Pakistan produce natural pacers because they have a culture of it, meaning the knowledge is available at very lower levels, for the self learners.



Thanks. I agree to you completely and that's a more than useful book. Surely, Once you have the dynamics, you need to practice practice and practice to teach your body and brain. More you practice, more natural the skill becomes. Presence of Professionals provide the environment to control these practice sessions, so that the dynamics don't get changed in the process of repeatations.

Repeatative Practice is the difference between Knowledge and Skill... Many of our bowlers have the knowledge how to bowl a reverse, but they haven't acquired the skill through practice....,
have to disagree again because as you'll take my tennis example, pro coaches already thought i was a competition player, and i didn't have any major technique problems. just because someone is self taught doesn't mean there are things that they taught themselves the wrong way. in saying that everyone has things they can work on, even ones taught by good coaches. i'm not saying you can self teach and make it to the pro level with no coaching, though i'm sure it's happened at some stage for rare cases in some sports, but you can self teach and get a really good base and get to a decent level where coaches can take over and take you further.
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  #153  
Old October 11, 2012, 05:33 PM
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I have to agree with Gowza, if you take Dusra itself it is invented by a player, so if a player can invent something why can't he learn something by watching and practicing it.

By the way our player doesn't need this sort of comment, because they are lazy, they don’t work hard and I doubted if they ever try to learn something by watching others.
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  #154  
Old October 11, 2012, 07:16 PM
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Very easy test. How many of our players would have read a Bangla translation of Outlier or any such book. Therein lies the answer. Lack of intellectual curiosity compounded by extrinsic motivation driving professional development.
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  #155  
Old October 13, 2012, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gowza
have to disagree again because as you'll take my tennis example, pro coaches already thought i was a competition player, and i didn't have any major technique problems. just because someone is self taught doesn't mean there are things that they taught themselves the wrong way. in saying that everyone has things they can work on, even ones taught by good coaches. i'm not saying you can self teach and make it to the pro level with no coaching, though i'm sure it's happened at some stage for rare cases in some sports, but you can self teach and get a really good base and get to a decent level where coaches can take over and take you further.
I did say the same things too, I just used your skills as an example considering you didn't aim to turn pro, I didn't mean that to be any less. But to turn a pro, you need to be in an environment where there is a strong culture of it, meaning where knowledge is readily available. Otherwise, it's a rare case that you will get everything in place by chance. That's why natural talents are not even one in 10 millions in our country. By talent I mean guys like Shakib, who can easily be taken/guided/coached to the next level by a professional.

While in a place like Pakistan, you can self teach to become a pace bowler, because they have a culture of it, so the knowledge of pace, swinging, seaming etc are readily available. But self teach doesn't mean by merely watching. Its a combination of observation and sharing knowledge with the guys you play and experienced elder guys of the area, lower level coaches etc etc who has the right knowledge of it, due to stronger culture of that game. They need minimum efforts under the professional coaches, to turn you into high grade professionals. A that's why we see a high percentage of these natural talents/self learners are making it to the next level.

How to develop professional players while you don't have a strong culture of the sports? Take boys at a very younger age and coach them under real professionals, you are bound to have better result. Or wait for 40/50 years,when the generations of players and coaches will slowly spread the knowledge to the next generation in different ways...to build that culture in a natural way.

When you self learn in a unfavorable environment, it's not that you learn everything wrong, but even if you get a few things wrong, that's good enough to block your progression to the next level. Like our self learning cricketers, they don't have everything wrong, but everyone has a certain things wrong, which is blocking them to reach to that desired level of professionals. Ex.. AAA..

Last edited by BANFAN; October 13, 2012 at 08:29 AM..
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  #156  
Old October 21, 2012, 04:16 AM
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so any news on teaching the doosra to our spinners? It would be a very useful weapon against the WI
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  #157  
Old October 23, 2012, 11:06 AM
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Warne has advised Nathan Lyon to focus on his orthodox off break deliveries and straighter delivery-stick to the basics. He has asked him not to get carried away with doosra's etc. Kind of true. If anyone notices Graemme Swann's bowling, its all about flight, guile, and an attacking mindset. Doesnt try to do too much.
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  #158  
Old November 6, 2012, 01:54 PM
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Shohag Gazi,‘Saqlain has helped me a lot. I am actually not a big turner of the ball and Saqlain has taught me how to do it. I have practiced it and received good results in the ongoing National Cricket League.
‘He also taught me the doosra and carom ball, but told me to practice it during off-season,’ Sohag said of the benefits he received from Saqlain.
http://www.newagebd.com/detail.php?d...1-07&nid=29252

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Last edited by Saifulsohel; November 6, 2012 at 02:31 PM..
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  #159  
Old November 6, 2012, 03:18 PM
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Good to see Saqlain's been spending time working with him. I thought maybe non of our spinners outside the National team get help from him.
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  #160  
Old November 7, 2012, 01:36 AM
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Yep. Finally we have a specialized off spinner, and Saqlain is playing a part in his development.
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  #161  
Old November 16, 2012, 11:19 PM
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BCB get Saqlain signed on a long term contract ASAP!!
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  #162  
Old November 16, 2012, 11:22 PM
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Yes please. Impact is clear with Gazi
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  #163  
Old November 25, 2012, 12:21 PM
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I hope BCB extends his contract.
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  #164  
Old November 25, 2012, 12:52 PM
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He is probably the only coach worth retaining. Others are just filling up the gap...
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  #165  
Old November 25, 2012, 01:48 PM
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Make the HC. Hire a new batting and pace bowling coach

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  #166  
Old November 26, 2012, 02:37 AM
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Finalize his long term contract.
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  #167  
Old November 26, 2012, 03:11 AM
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Come to think of it, he would make a good head coach. He was known as a thinking cricketer and has a good brain and wasn't plagued by any scandals and corruptions like other EX- pak players. There is also the fact that most of our players are a big fan of his and is more likely to listen to what he has to say and he is someone who understands the subcontinent culture. Has quite abit of western influence too as he worked with England and New Zealand as well as having played in the county for so long. He also knows something about batting as he was pretty handy with the bat himself and has seen how greats like Saeed Anwar, Inzamam and fast bowlers like Wasim and Waqar used to train. Given how most of our players grew up watching them play, stories about their training schedule won't go unheeded.

Why go for an Aussie or English coach who have so many demands?

I know a good player doesn't always make a good coach but there's a fact that some of our more arrogant cricketers think they know better than the coach if it's not someone famous.

If we really want some western guy, I hope it's someone like Ian, Siddons, Barlow, Mcinnes who are genuinely passionate about our cricket and ready to take on the hands-on approach with our players. Not someone who would sit back and strategise. Someone who can earn respect and trust from our players like Siddons and Barlow but Saqlain has the advantage where this respect is already ingrained in our players minds.

But given the fact how inept BCB is they will probably go after someone unwilling and beg them to take the job like Klusener or our Ex-coach. After all what would a dumb fan like me know?

Last edited by dark mage; November 26, 2012 at 07:06 AM..
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  #168  
Old November 26, 2012, 03:33 PM
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He is the only coach worth retaining.
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  #169  
Old December 2, 2012, 02:32 AM
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Make Saqlain the head coach and keep him.
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  #170  
Old December 2, 2012, 04:06 AM
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Keep him for any cost. even better if BCB make him the HC. pls. jodi donation lage dimu, tobuo ore rakhen plssss!!!
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  #171  
Old December 2, 2012, 04:25 AM
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BCB should try their best to retain him.
He talks less, works more.
Plus the spinners are doing really well under him.
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  #172  
Old December 2, 2012, 04:26 AM
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for how long did Saqlain work with Gazi?

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  #173  
Old December 2, 2012, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabz
BCB should try their best to retain him.
He talks less, works more.
Plus the spinners are doing really well under him.
I always forget that he's still with us. He stays away from the media and attention. I like it. BCB would be stupid not give him a contract extension.
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  #174  
Old December 2, 2012, 04:32 AM
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Da Saqstah is creating a culture of aggressive wicket taking spinners MashAllah. Definitely a keeper.
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  #175  
Old December 2, 2012, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
for how long did Saqlain work with Gazi?

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About two months before the WI series started.
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