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  #26  
Old July 13, 2012, 07:40 AM
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I like the idea of plying a spin heavy attack and choking teams in limited overs affairs. However for tests unless we have wicket taking spinners no point in playing them. Still for longer version shakib, sunny, enamul sound good while noor develops
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  #27  
Old July 13, 2012, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeesh
.......

So maybe this is a lineup we should focus on developing-if we want to win i.e, not just compete

Tamim
Imrul/Ash
Jahurul/Rakibul/Junaid
Mushfiq
Shakib Specialist Spinner
Mahmudullah - Specialist Spinner
Nasir Part Time Spinner
Mashrafe Mortaza
Zia - Medium Pace Allrounder
Abdur Razzak Specialist Spinner/Elias Sunny/Shuvo/Any Other Prospect Specialist Spinner
Nazmul Hossain/Rubel Hossain/Shafiul Islam

Pretty strong lineup dont you think?
Now, There are 3 specialist spinners and 2 part time spinners if you include Ash. While we have only 2 specialist pacers and no part timers... So the pace department is too vulnerable. Bowling will look too one dimensional. If we can have one part time medium pacer/ Alrounder, that would make this line up stronger. Because he can be an option if another pacer has a bad day or injury during match.

While I completely agree that we should have 3 specialist spinner and spin should be our main attack to win matches. Bcoz that's what we have in abundance.

Zia could be that Medium pace Allrounder.... Kapil dev of the team... Mullah is as good as Razzak with ball, if not better at times. He should be used as a specialist spinner. So it's between Razzak/Sunny to chose the third specialist spinner.
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  #28  
Old July 13, 2012, 08:30 AM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BANFAN
Now, There are 3 specialist spinners and 2 part time spinners if you include Ash. While we have only 2 specialist pacers and no part timers... So the pace department is too vulnerable. Bowling will look too one dimensional. If we can have one part time medium pacer/ Alrounder, that would make this line up stronger. Because he can be an option if another pacer has a bad day or injury during match.

While I completely agree that we should have 3 specialist spinner and spin should be our main attack to win matches. Bcoz that's what we have in abundance.

Zia could be that Medium pace Allrounder.... Kapil dev of the team... Mullah is as good as Razzak with ball, if not better at times. He should be used as a specialist spinner. So it's between Razzak/Sunny to chose the third specialist spinner.
this is what i meant when i said if we only take 2 specialist pacers going in you need an allrounder or one of your batsmen to be a capable enough pacer to fill in if needed.
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  #29  
Old July 13, 2012, 08:51 AM
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thats the mindset issue guys. We dont need a pacer allrounder. Just stick with Nazmul/Mashrafe and Rubel as pacers and all out spin attazk can be Shakib, Mahmudullah, Razzak and Elias.
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  #30  
Old July 13, 2012, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by playmaker
Ans: NO
How about you name us a better lineup.
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  #31  
Old July 13, 2012, 09:15 AM
jeesh jeesh is offline
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One reason why we were successful in 2007 guys, even in the bouncy wickets of WI. Unfortunately our batting let us down, otherwise we could have upset a few more teams.

But i agree it ll be good to have a pace bowling all rounder in the squad. Sri Lanka benefits from three of them-Maharoof, Mathews, and now Thisira Perera. We can rotate the third spinner with the pace bowling all rounder depending on wicket and opposition. If Saqlain con work on the bowling of Nasir and Mahmudullah then we could have a very competitive squad-coach and captain will have a lot of options
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  #32  
Old July 13, 2012, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BengaliPagol
thats the mindset issue guys. We dont need a pacer allrounder. Just stick with Nazmul/Mashrafe and Rubel as pacers and all out spin attazk can be Shakib, Mahmudullah, Razzak and Elias.
It's not the mind set issue; what do you do if Mash or any pacer gets injured in first delivery or anytime early in his spell?? Or a pacer has a seriously bad day?? Then it becomes all spinners ... Even if the spin is your main weapon, you need pacers to unsettle them and not allow them to get set with spinners..you genuinely need a backup pacer even with two specialists... Or it will be like gambling..

Agree to Gowza and Jeesh here.
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  #33  
Old July 13, 2012, 09:37 AM
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To be honest BANFAN sometimes our spinners put more fear in opposition batsmen than our pace bowlers. Usually our pace bowlers get unsettled by batsmen, not the other way round . Sometimes its a treat for opposition batsmen to bat against guys like Shafiul and Shahadat. But anyway get your point. It is essential we develop Zia or find someone similar. Azhar Mahmood, Abdul Razzaq, Angelo Matthews, Flintoff, Chigumbara, Bravo, Albie Morkel, Oram etc add(ed) a lot of value to their teams.
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  #34  
Old July 13, 2012, 11:51 AM
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jeesh, the Caribbean wickets are hardly bouncy these days. They are low and slow. Hence the success of spinners in the Carib first class and the emergence of spinners such as Narine. The "choke 'em" approach is a negative, easy-win. It only works on certain pitches, some of the time. It's not for nothing that even with the great spin attack of the 70s and 80s, India did not start winning away matches until their spinners were complemented by decent pace attacks.

Yes the Razzak, Rafique, Shak attack was very effective but it wasn't formidable - as in inducing fear in the opposition. Annoyance would be the more appropriate emotion I'd posit.

Ian - who is a better evaluator of bowling attacks than you or I - has waxed poetic on the many reasons why BD needs to field 3 pacers in the team and to challenge our pipeline to make that possible.

To recap:

I agree with you that we need a spinner hunt. Other than Shak, I don't rate any of our spinners as "attacking".
I agree with you that Noor Hossain _has_ to be nurtured. Leggies are rare.
I don't agree that a 3-spinner attack, given the next WC is in Australia, is our best investment. Especially given we have very good spin-bowling all-rounders. And it is absolutely the wrong call for our Test attack - whenever we get the rare chance to play one.

Mash, Rubel, Nazmul, Shafiul, Rabbi, Ziaur, Shahadat, Abu Hossain - 3 of these guys will have to be primed and good to go for next WC and playing in every match. (Except Darwin perhaps)
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  #35  
Old July 13, 2012, 12:05 PM
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I do agree with Razab bhai here. A spin-heavy attack may be the way to go on slow, low wickets in ODIs, but we do need good pacers to be able to win ODIs in conditions alien to us and Tests anywhere in the world. We need the sort of penetration that only raw pace and /or swing can provide and risk the chance of fielding a very one-dimensional attack by packing it with spinners. Drying up the runs and choking the opposition won't always work, especially in Tests, where batsmen have all the damn time in the world.

Once Rubel is back, Nazmul finds a father who won't treat him like he's someone else's and Mash mans the heck up, we will have a decent pace attack. We do, however, still need another really good spinner or two. Elias might make it in the longest version, but too early to tell. Perhaps Enamul?
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  #36  
Old July 13, 2012, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AsifTheManRahman
I do agree with Razab bhai here. A spin-heavy attack may be the way to go on slow, low wickets in ODIs, but we do need good pacers to be able to win ODIs in conditions alien to us and Tests anywhere in the world. We need the sort of penetration that only raw pace and /or swing can provide and risk the chance of fielding a very one-dimensional attack by packing it with spinners. Drying up the runs and choking the opposition won't always work, especially in Tests, where batsmen have all the damn time in the world.

Once Rubel is back, Nazmul finds a father who won't treat him like he's someone else's and Mash mans the heck up, we will have a decent pace attack. We do, however, still need another really good spinner or two. Elias might make it in the longest version, but too early to tell. Perhaps Enamul?
Our Test pace attack looks scary. And thats not a good thing. Only Nazmul looks competent. Its amazing how Rubel with his pace and reverse swing has such a poor average and strike rate. I hope he improves as he's done in ODIs. I've lost hope on Shahadat as his average and strike rates continue to skyrocket. Robiul doesn't look like he merits another shot, but I'd like to give Shafiul another look. I hope Mash can play again, and maybe he could retire from limited overs to extend a test career. I have a feeling pace-wise, we will very soon be forced to turn to Rabbi, Abul, and Taskin in Tests.

By contrast our ODI pace attack seems very settled and productive.
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  #37  
Old July 13, 2012, 10:29 PM
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Its all about strategy. As the underdog you need to do unconventional things to win.

Those who are familiar with basketball maybe know about the full court press which a lot of weaker teams employ to defeat the stronger sides. Check this excellent article by Malcolm Gladwell on David Beats Goliath. This is unconventional, and not something you will get in the coaching books, or see other teams do

In cricket you also get such strategies. For example: How Sri Lanka won the WC in 1996 by changing the nature of game (First 15 overs bashing). NZ used to bowl off spinner Deepak Patel from 2nd over-a trend we see a lot of teams following these days.

Thats what he have to keep in mind. Sometimes the conventional strategies wont work for a weaker team like us. So if it means playing 2 spinners or 3 spinners or even 4 spinners-whatever makes us distinct and hard to play and what results in a win-thats the important thing. We tend to think 3 SLA's will make our attack one dimensional. But would you rather have 3 SLA's who only give 120 runs in ODI's in 30 overs or 2 SLA's and a pacer who will give 140 runs in 30 overs (Sometimes the pacers dont even fill their quota, and part timers have to fill in). These extra 20 runs often make a big difference.

Anyway great debate. Whatever lineup, combination as long as we win i am happy. Thanks all again for your feedback. Appreciated. Go tigers!
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  #38  
Old July 13, 2012, 10:30 PM
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Maybe i should start bowling leg spin to get into the Bangladeshi team.
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  #39  
Old July 14, 2012, 12:17 AM
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What happened to Enamul Haque Jr? Does he have the potential to be better then Razzak?
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  #40  
Old July 14, 2012, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all_rounder
What happened to Enamul Haque Jr? Does he have the potential to be better then Razzak?
Had chances already in the national team and didn't do so well but has done well domestically, but he always did that. Elias sunny has done well the chances he has been given, if he is given a permanent spot in the team I reckon he'll be one of the best in the world in a couple of years
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  #41  
Old July 14, 2012, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeesh
So maybe this is a lineup we should focus on developing-if we want to win i.e, not just compete

Tamim
Imrul
Jahurul/Rakibul/Junaid
Mushfiq
Shakib Specialist Spinner
Mahmudullah Part Time Spinner
Nasir Part Time Spinner
Mashrafe Mortaza
Abdur Razzak Specialist Spinner
Elias Sunny/Shuvo/Any Other Prospect Specialist Spinner
Nazmul Hossain/Rubel Hossain/Shafiul Islam

Pretty strong lineup dont you think?
Yes. For ODIs though.

I would replaced Imrul with either Mominul /Anamul or some one else and remove Razzak from Test team though.

For T20, Ash, Alok, Zia, Nazimuddin, Shabbir would be considered as well.


BTW, nice article
Though, I still think we need quality "pacers" to win matches!
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  #42  
Old July 14, 2012, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all_rounder
What happened to Enamul Haque Jr? Does he have the potential to be better then Razzak?
Richard McIness had once said this guy could become one of the best in the world. He had an exciting first few matches. Picked up wickets against Zimbabwe gave trouble to the English. After that something happened to him.

He used to be able to turn the ball quite a bit. He used the bowling crease very well (Sometimes delivery point was wide, sometimes he bowled close to the wicket). Had a decent arm ball. Then the lull period. Fortunately he had a good BPL and had a bit of success in domestic cricket. Maybe Saqlain and McIness can help him out. But BCB needs to give him a long run in the team. They tend to pick him, then drop him, pick him, then drop him. This wont work. At least in test matches this guy should be selected ahead of Elias and Razzak. There is still time for him to develop
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  #43  
Old July 15, 2012, 05:15 PM
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In Test matches Enamul is always effective. He was the youngest bowler who took 12 wickets in Test match. It happened our first test win ever in 2005 against Zimbabwe at Chittagong. He was rewarded as man of the series. But unfortunately he was dropped next series due to his miserable record in abroad.
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  #44  
Old July 15, 2012, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deshimon
In Test matches Enamul is always effective. He was the youngest bowler who took 12 wickets in Test match. It happened our first test win ever in 2005 against Zimbabwe at Chittagong. He was rewarded as man of the series. But unfortunately he was dropped next series due to his miserable record in abroad.
14 matches, strike rate of 77.7, average of 39.24 says that he isn't always effective in test matches. has potential but hasn't realised it at the highest level yet.
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  #45  
Old July 15, 2012, 10:34 PM
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Something happened to him-personal issue, mindset problem, lack of confidence sth. He stopped doing a lot of things which made him successful during his under 19 and early international days. Simple example is how he used the angles the point of delivery-with which he always kept the batsmen guessing. Sometimes he bowled wide of the crease, sometimes closer.

This is a huge problem in Bangladeshi cricket. Youngsters have lot of talent, potential (Maybe they are even better than their counterparts in other countries at 17, 18, 19). The problem is they dont develop mentally. This is where someone like McIness can come and make a huge difference. McIness played a huge role in Enamul's development. Ali De Winter and Shaun Williams were also impressed by him. But after they all left we lacked a mentor to guide them on a full time basis. BCB has made a fantastic move with McIness and Saqlain who will definitely make a difference in the area.
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  #46  
Old July 15, 2012, 10:48 PM
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When you can bowl all the deliveries, sometimes you try to bowl all the deliveries. In one over. That's what happened at Enam. Watching him bowl in the later years, as a fellow SLA, I got the sense that he wasn't operating on a rhythm. Every ball he was aiming for the magic delivery. Hitting the right areas and building up pressure is not just the catch phrase of ball-rollers like Rafique. Even Swann and Warne got their wickets by setting batsman up. Each ball in the same spot. One slower, one quicker per over perhaps. With the propensity to bowl differently each ball, he lost his action a little bit, and the loss of action, he lost his "rip". If I were Enam, here's what I'd do
I'd go to the nets and bowl 2 hours of solid, orthodox SLA, aiming for off and middle and hitting the top of the bails.
Every ball.
No variation in pace, or angles or lengths. Video that sucker.

If he is able to do that for couple of hours then I would get in the routine where he practices 45 minutes of that, 30 min of variation and then again 15 minutes of the stock delivery.
Do that for a week. Get Nasu or the analyst to come back and see if there is any change to his action for stock delivery. That baseline has to be rooted.

If all good then bring in batsmen to bowl after 1 more week.

In 2-3 weeks he'd have his mojo back.
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  #47  
Old July 16, 2012, 12:24 AM
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^sounds easy.
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  #48  
Old July 16, 2012, 12:43 AM
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try the 2 hrs first and see how easy it is
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  #49  
Old July 16, 2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalpurush
...".........".....:
Though, I still think we need quality "pacers" to win matches!
We definitely need. But the point is, till we have those quality pacers, we must have a spin focused attack, since our spinners are much more effective than our pacers...no point loading the team with three pacers leaving out a better bowler, because he is spinner.
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  #50  
Old July 16, 2012, 10:51 PM
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Easy example- see what happened in the first 2 matches in European tour. Even in the pace friendly wickets our pacers were easy (Except Mashrafe) to play. But our spinners kept it tight-Sunny, Razzak, Mahumudullah.

Thats the point i have tried to make in the article. Our pacers except 1-2 dont have the quality to do well even in green or bouncy wickets. So we d rather play spinners. Time and time again this will happen.
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