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  #1  
Old October 5, 2012, 10:23 AM
razath razath is offline
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Default Biggest Disappointment - Shane Jurgensen and Jason Swift

It was wrong decision to replace Ian Pont and Julien Fountain by Shane Jurgense and Jason Swift when our boys were improving under the coaching of Ian Pont and Julien Fountain. Replacement of Jamie Siddons was inevitable after the world cup but not Ian Pont and Julien Fountain.

I do like most about Ian Pont and Julien Fountain is that they are good professional coach but they do care for Bangladesh as well.

Thank you Ian Pont and Julien Fountain.
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  #2  
Old October 5, 2012, 10:37 AM
Mr.Cricket Mr.Cricket is offline
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Agree. Ditto. And also sensible.

Posted via BC Mobile Edition (Blackberry)
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  #3  
Old October 5, 2012, 10:47 AM
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I don't think the problem lies in coaching. The desire and the intensity is missing from the players. During WC when Ian and Julian was there, India flattened us in the opening match and 58 and 78 followed. So it wasn't all great and amazing under their tenure. In fact, except the win against ENG, our WC was very poor and we almost lost to IRE.

Julien is coaching Pakistan now and I don't see any marked improvement in their fielding. Their fielding was very poor in the Semi Final and only Shoaib Malik fielded well. Ian was offered a contract by BCB but it fell off during the negotiations.

So we can't just stay in the past and keep yearning for Ian and Julien. They are good coaches but not irreplaceable. Yes, SJ and Swift has been very poor and should be replaced. Let's hope for new coaches and move forward.
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  #4  
Old October 5, 2012, 11:03 AM
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Sorry for repeating this over and over again but SJ and JS are Law's selection. Obviously Law has worked with them in the past at some point and preferred to have them in his unit. He prioritized familiarity over the best options. Otherwise why would you get JS who only has coaching experience at county level as opposed to Fountain who has worked at the highest level.
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  #5  
Old October 5, 2012, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mufi_02
I don't think the problem lies in coaching. The desire and the intensity is missing from the players. During WC when Ian and Julian was there, India flattened us in the opening match and 58 and 78 followed. So it wasn't all great and amazing under their tenure. In fact, except the win against ENG, our WC was very poor and we almost lost to IRE.

Julien is coaching Pakistan now and I don't see any marked improvement in their fielding. Their fielding was very poor in the Semi Final and only Shoaib Malik fielded well. Ian was offered a contract by BCB but it fell off during the negotiations.

So we can't just stay in the past and keep yearning for Ian and Julien. They are good coaches but not irreplaceable. Yes, SJ and Swift has been very poor and should be replaced. Let's hope for new coaches and move forward.
I don't disagree with anything you said. However, the OP says that it was a mistake to replace them with Jurgensen and Swift and that I agree with too. Players have to take responsibility for their failures but so do coaches and these two gentlemen haven't done their jobs, so we need people who can/will. I'm not sure who is available/interested at this point, but Jurgensen and Swift have had their shares of chances and it isn't working out.
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  #6  
Old October 5, 2012, 11:34 AM
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I don't think these coaches will go soon. RP is a fav of LK and SJ, JS and the rest of the coaching staff recruited after the appointment of RP are his favs ... So I don't see them going anytime soon. Only chance that their contracts may not be renewed ... But that's a long time...

It definitely was a mistake to leave IP and JF... Big mistake. You generally don't get coaches who can show upward trend in just 6 months.... And when someone shows that, you can't disturb that chemistry for any good reason....ya it's the right chemistry between the players and the coach that matters..otherwise, no coach is less capable on paper.
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  #7  
Old October 5, 2012, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mufi_02
I don't think the problem lies in coaching. The desire and the intensity is missing from the players. During WC when Ian and Julian was there, India flattened us in the opening match and 58 and 78 followed. So it wasn't all great and amazing under their tenure. In fact, except the win against ENG, our WC was very poor and we almost lost to IRE.

Julien is coaching Pakistan now and I don't see any marked improvement in their fielding. Their fielding was very poor in the Semi Final and only Shoaib Malik fielded well. Ian was offered a contract by BCB but it fell off during the negotiations.

So we can't just stay in the past and keep yearning for Ian and Julien. They are good coaches but not irreplaceable. Yes, SJ and Swift has been very poor and should be replaced. Let's hope for new coaches and move forward.
couldn't have said it any better. 10/10

But do agree that Swift and Jog-ashon have been disappointing.
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  #8  
Old October 5, 2012, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mufi_02
During WC when Ian and Julian was there, India flattened us in the opening match and 58 and 78 followed. It wasn't all great and amazing under their tenure.
I hate to repeat statistics at you, but before my arrival, Bangladesh had lost 27 out of 29 games. In my time there, they won 10 out of 14. At the end of 2010, Bangladesh had won 7 out of 8 matches (including the Banglawash) which was 2nd only to India in results at that time across 8 matches.

I am not saying it is because of me, or Julien or anyone. I am simply saying you are being extremely harsh to say that wasn't amazing, because on FORM alone, Bangladesh would have been ranked in the world's TOP 3.

Teams will always lose matches. Sides get bowled out for low scores. But don't confuse that with the TREND, which was definitely upwards.

Please remember you are dealing here with Bangladesh and not a top 4 Test country. To gain any sort of consistency over 6 months is wonderful.

As far as JS and SJ are concerned, they are professional coaches but haven't really been able to make much of an impact compared to me and Julien. That doesn't mean they aren't good. It might just be that we were lucky to turn it around.

If anyone can choose to remember those 6 months, it wasn't the bowling (me) or fielding (Julien) that was the issue, but the batting. 58 and 78 reflected that, and the win over England at Chittagong in the WC was thanks to Ryad and Shafiul's saving us with the bat.

How short a memory some people have...
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  #9  
Old October 5, 2012, 01:49 PM
razath razath is offline
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Thank you for the clarification Ian.
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  #10  
Old October 5, 2012, 02:05 PM
zulfiqer zulfiqer is offline
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100% agreed with pont...
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  #11  
Old October 5, 2012, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Pont
I hate to repeat statistics at you, but before my arrival, Bangladesh had lost 27 out of 29 games. In my time there, they won 10 out of 14. At the end of 2010, Bangladesh had won 7 out of 8 matches (including the Banglawash) which was 2nd only to India in results at that time across 8 matches.

How short a memory some people have...
I am sorry I have to repeat some stats as well.

First of all, I acknowledged the fact both you and Julian are good coaches. We all appreciate your passion and continuous expert knowledge at BC.

I don't know if you referring to ODIs by saying we lost 27 out of 29 games before your arrival (Sep 2010). We should only take ODIs as standard here because you weren't with us for any Test matches.

Our ODI record (Jul 2009 – Sep 2010)
Played – 30
Won - 14

Yes, the stats are inflated because we won most of them against Zim and weak WI side. We lost comprehensively against the G8 nations and thus nothing to be too happy about as fans.

Your tenure
Played -14
Won – 10 (4 against NZ, 4 against ZIM, 1 against IRE, 1 against NED)

The discussion here is about Pace Bowling and Fielding coach. It’s hard to get fielding stats and as you are here already we can discuss Pace bowling improvements. You are obviously credited for the wins but if we look closely, it was the spinners who were the mastermind of those wins. Our pacers were only there to make up the 50 overs.

I don’t know if we can take NZ pace bowling into account. It was mostly the spinners especially Shakib who did most of the damage. But if we do –

NZ Series
Total overs we bowled – 178.1
Pace – 51.6 (29%) ; Wickets taken – 9 out of 35 (26%)
Spin – 126.5 (71%) Wickets taken – 26 out of 35 (74%)

So we see it was mostly the spinners who crafted our win. Next up was Zimbabwe and the pacers contributed even less

Zim Series
Total overs we bowled – 193.3
Pace – 52.1 (27%) ; Wickets taken – 8 out of 34 (23.5%)
Spin – 141.2 (73%) ; Wickets taken – 26 out of 34 (76.5%)


One of the reason specialized bowling and fielding coach was hired was for of the WC. Let’s look at that

WC 2011
Total overs we bowled – 252.8
Pace – 78.6 (31%) ; Wickets taken – 11 out of 36 (31.5%)
Spin – 174.2 (69%) ; Wickets taken – 25 out of 36 (69.5%)

Our poor batting and the inability of the spinners in the big matches let us down in the WC. Finger pointing started and drastic changes were made.

In conclusion – Your tenure was a slightly better era in our history but it was mostly due to SLAs and the super in-form Shakib. But as I said before, it was not all that great and amazing. We failed to deliver where it mattered most and it was the WC. But some credits should obviously go to Siddons, you and Julian and other staff.
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  #12  
Old October 5, 2012, 03:06 PM
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^ Tbf, I think you should consider two other quantitative things. Rubel & company's stats individually before Ian's tenure and during Ian's tenure. Additionally, the above stats analysis would be bolstered with consideration of Rubel and co's econ rates during Ian's tenure.

For a more qualitative review, it may even be desirable to look at the CI commentary from those matches during his tenure and note how many edges, yorkers, good slower deliveries, well-directed bouncers the pacers managed. Given that it's only 14 ODIs, it shouldn't take too long. (I could volunteer to do this even)
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  #13  
Old October 5, 2012, 03:17 PM
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^ I never discredited his contribution. Under him, Rubel improved most and Shafiul to a certain extent. I just disagreed with the fact that it was a great and amazing era in our history.

Ian started by W/L ratio and so I broke down that stats further. He came up with 27/29 and I believe that include Tests. We all know how horrible we always have been at Tests. Even as fans, our expectation is to drag any test longer and avoid innings defeat. So skewed statistics are applied to strengthen his argument.

Our team had an upward trend before they joined. Shakib was starting his amazing form and Tamim was red hot after coming from ENG. No one can question that it was Shakib and the barrage of SLAs that contributed to most of our wins. They bolstered it further and some credit should go to Siddons as well. If it was such an amazing era, we don't question Siddon's sacking but yearn for Ian and Julian who were in the same management.

I don't think even after looking at CI commentary we can get the whole picture. But you are welcome to do that. The major reason for Ian and Julian's hiring was for the big event -- WC at home. But it was total disappointment. Once again, it doesn't take away the fact that both of them are good coaches.

BCB have no interest in them. So its better for us as fans to move forward. We can't just remain in the past.
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  #14  
Old October 5, 2012, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mufi_02
^ I never discredited his contribution. Under him, Rubel improved most and Shafiul to a certain extent. I just disagreed with the fact that it was a great and amazing era in our history.

Ian started by W/L ratio and so I broke down that stats further. He came up with 27/29 and I believe that include Tests. We all know how horrible we always have been at Tests. Even as fans, our expectation is to drag any test longer and avoid innings defeat. So skewed statistics are applied to strengthen his argument.

Our team had an upward trend before they joined. Shakib was starting his amazing form and Tamim was red hot after coming from ENG. No one can question that it was Shakib and the barrage of SLAs that contributed to most of our wins. They bolstered it further and some credit should go to Siddons as well. If it was such an amazing era, we don't question Siddon's sacking but yearn for Ian and Julian who were in the same management.

I don't think even after looking at CI commentary we can get the whole picture. But you are welcome to do that. The major reason for Ian and Julian's hiring was for the big event -- WC at home. But it was total disappointment. Once again, it doesn't take away the fact that both of them are good coaches.

BCB have no interest in them. So its better for us as fans to move forward. We can't just remain in the past.
This may not be true for Pont. BCB did offer him to extend his contact but the salary wasn't enough for him to stay back with Bangladesh.

Source: Pont himself mentioned it in some thread few days back.
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  #15  
Old October 5, 2012, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nadim 98
This may not be true for Pont. BCB did offer him to extend his contact but the salary wasn't enough for him to stay back with Bangladesh.

Source: Pont himself mentioned it in some thread few days back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mufi_02
Ian was offered a contract by BCB but it fell off during the negotiations.
Yes, I mentioned it in post#3. I meant currently BCB has no interest in them.
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  #16  
Old October 5, 2012, 04:58 PM
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Why waste so much energy on Ian Pont? Chances are we might never see him back. He is busy with his business and other obligations. BCB and him may not be on the same boat. Yes, he was the best bowling coach we have had but its time to move on. He is not coming back anytime soon. So let's see what other options we have..

Ian is not the only coach out there..
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  #17  
Old October 5, 2012, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roman
Why waste so much energy on Ian Pont? Chances are we might never see him back. He is busy with his business and other obligations. BCB and him may not be on the same boat. Yes, he was the best bowling coach we have had but its time to move on. He is not coming back anytime soon. So let's see what other options we have..

Ian is not the only coach out there..
We know he might not come back, but is there anyone good enough to replace him? we know Shane Jurgensen was the wrong replacement and now we're paying for it. i blame BCB for not thinking thoroughly and letting Law pick the teams coaches! bahh bcb baah
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  #18  
Old October 5, 2012, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Navo
^ Tbf, I think you should consider two other quantitative things. Rubel & company's stats individually before Ian's tenure and during Ian's tenure. Additionally, the above stats analysis would be bolstered with consideration of Rubel and co's econ rates during Ian's tenure.

For a more qualitative review, it may even be desirable to look at the CI commentary from those matches during his tenure and note how many edges, yorkers, good slower deliveries, well-directed bouncers the pacers managed. Given that it's only 14 ODIs, it shouldn't take too long. (I could volunteer to do this even)
Exactly. Its kind of worrying but our pace bowlers never get the batsmen to edge the ball (except for Mash at times). That the worrying thing. Other international players seem to be playing our pace bowlers with ease, as if they are net bowlers or something. I reckon if Mash wasnt in the team then our pace bowling would be unbelievably horrible.
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Old October 5, 2012, 07:43 PM
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All I know is when JF was here, we dropped total of 2-3 catches (AFAIR). Likes of Razzak, RAZZAK, took all their catches. Including one sick catch where RAZZAK ran about 30 yards and took a sick over the head catch. Razzak! Catches won matches. Go by the recent close losses and see how many of those we lost because our fielders let it slip through their fingers.

As for Ian and bowling, by those posted ratios, it looks like our fast bowlers played no part in those wins. And that's another example of how misleading cricket stats can be. While Ian was here (except the WC-overhyped, over pumped game opener against Shewag) we'd never complained about our fast bowlers' performances. They played huge supporting role which helped the spinners boost their stats. Look at our spinners now. Same spinners. Why can't they spin the opponent anymore? Why are they getting trashed so badly recently? Because fast bowlers are all out of form. They aren't providing that support anymore. Our bowling attack has become very blunt and 1D. It is easy pickings...
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Old October 5, 2012, 07:48 PM
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@Navo, you don't even have to all that. Just compare the Run-column between then and now.
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  #21  
Old October 5, 2012, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Pont
I hate to repeat statistics at you, but before my arrival, Bangladesh had lost 27 out of 29 games. In my time there, they won 10 out of 14. At the end of 2010, Bangladesh had won 7 out of 8 matches (including the Banglawash) which was 2nd only to India in results at that time across 8 matches.

I am not saying it is because of me, or Julien or anyone. I am simply saying you are being extremely harsh to say that wasn't amazing, because on FORM alone, Bangladesh would have been ranked in the world's TOP 3.

Teams will always lose matches. Sides get bowled out for low scores. But don't confuse that with the TREND, which was definitely upwards.

Please remember you are dealing here with Bangladesh and not a top 4 Test country. To gain any sort of consistency over 6 months is wonderful.

As far as JS and SJ are concerned, they are professional coaches but haven't really been able to make much of an impact compared to me and Julien. That doesn't mean they aren't good. It might just be that we were lucky to turn it around.

If anyone can choose to remember those 6 months, it wasn't the bowling (me) or fielding (Julien) that was the issue, but the batting. 58 and 78 reflected that, and the win over England at Chittagong in the WC was thanks to Ryad and Shafiul's saving us with the bat.

How short a memory some people have...

Excellent analysis Ian.
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  #22  
Old October 5, 2012, 11:08 PM
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selecting good coaches for national team only wont solve our problem .......

we need good coaches for NCL teams and may be the DPL teams. also we need to set up divisional academies equipped with good coaches and facilities.

its not possible to supply foreign coaches in all the above mentioned teams/clubs/academies.

so we need to develop quality coaches in Bangladesh. the foreign coaches working in national team, a team, u-19 or academy team can help in development of local coaches.
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  #23  
Old October 6, 2012, 01:17 AM
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Ian Pont Ian Pont is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mufi_02
I am sorry I have to repeat some stats as well.


Played -14
Won – 10 (4 against NZ, 4 against ZIM, 1 against IRE, 1 against NED)
Bhai... 10 wins for 14 matches is ALL I care about. Any influence on the team is a positive one, and you will also recall the uplifting videos we arranged with Maverick Studios. Julien and me also worked with batters (as we are both Level 3 head coaches), but that is not what I am saying. You know that Dhaka won the BPL with that same combination.

I don't mind you trying to lessen the record by attempting to point out who the opponents are but the bottom lime is a 71% win rate is what fans care about

It seems with some so called 'fans' you cannot win. If we had lost all those 14 matches, I would have been BHUA. But we win 10, which is the greatest set of results in BD history, and that's not amazing. You need to learn to enjoy the big successes of Bangladesh Cricket as they don't happen very often

PS... you missed the GREATEST win against England at Chittagong. I hope that wasn't deliberate but simply in your desperation to put the best team results down
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  #24  
Old October 6, 2012, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al-Sagar
selecting good coaches for national team only wont solve our problem .......

we need good coaches for NCL teams and may be the DPL teams. also we need to set up divisional academies equipped with good coaches and facilities.

its not possible to supply foreign coaches in all the above mentioned teams/clubs/academies.

so we need to develop quality coaches in Bangladesh. the foreign coaches working in national team, a team, u-19 or academy team can help in development of local coaches.
Perfectly put and I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly. That being said, we must consider:

1) The ability of a coach to effectively assess and coach our players with the basic ability to sustain success at the highest level. Results are everything and therefore the coach must be accountable for effectively communicating and inspiring better workrate in and out of coaching camp, and consistent application in the middle.

2) The passion, desire and ability of our players become coachable for their own good, especially when it comes to working hard on their own.
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  #25  
Old October 6, 2012, 05:13 AM
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Thought they weren't that big of a disappointment when we reached the Asia Cup final, which is unarguably our biggest success so far.
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