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  #1  
Old December 18, 2014, 02:56 PM
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Default Countdown To Shakib's 3000 and 300

In Test cricket 3000 runs and 300 wickets are, generally, considered a prerequisite for a cricketer to be classed as a genuine all-rounder. By that what is meant that a cricketer may make a side either for his bowling or batting alone. A higher batting average than the bowling average -over a career- also serves as an indicator to an all-round ability. In modern times, Imran Khan, Ian Botham, Richard Hadlee and Kapil Dev are considered to be amongst the great genuine all-rounders. Many may argue the case for the inclusion of Jacques Kallis amongst the greats. I tend to see Jacques more as an all-time batting great. His batting stats are significantly better than his bowling -though, he has picked up close to 300 Test wickets. For me his bowling SR is considerably higher than the Four Greats. And, also he didn't bowl as much as the others in relation to the number of matches he has played.

Shakib Al-Hasan, perhaps, the only contemporary cricketer who is well on his way to join those luminaries at the top -In Sha Allah. Shakib has already notched up 2529 Test runs at a very healthy average of 38.31 and 140 Test wickets at a good average of 31.45 from just 37 Tests. His bowling Strike Rate is slightly higher but as a spinner he is expected to get better with time, therefore, the SR should come down.

Although, Shakib doesn't get opportunities to play as many Test matches as many of his contemporaries but he is still very young (27) and -all things being equal- should be expected to play for another 8 to 10 years of top flight cricket. It is very conceivable that he will pick up those required 471 runs 160 wickets in due time -if not far exceeding those numbers.

Test Career Batting and Fielding (2007-2014/15)






M
I NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 SRate Ct
Bangladesh 37 71 5 2529 144 38.31 3 17 60.98 16


Test Career Bowling (2007-2014/15)
Balls Mdns Runs Wkts BB Ave 5wI 10wM SRate Econ
Bangladesh 9071 297 4403 140 7-36 31.45 14 1 64.79 2.91





ODI Career Batting and Fielding (2006-2014/15)
M I NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 SRate Ct
Bangladesh 141 135 20 3977 134* 34.58 6 26 79.39 36


ODI Career Bowling (2006-2014/15)
Balls Mdns Runs Wkts BB Ave 4wI 5wI SRate Econ
Bangladesh 7147 72 5082 182 4-16 27.92 5 0 39.26 4.26




International Twenty20 Career Batting and Fielding (2006/07-2013/14)
M I NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 SRate Ct
Bangladesh 35 35 2 752 84 22.78 0 4 128.10 9


International Twenty20 Career Bowling (2006/07-2013/14)
Balls Mdns Runs Wkts BB Ave 4wI 5wI SRate Econ
Bangladesh 769 1 832 44 4-21 18.90 2 0 17.47 6.49


Courtesy of www.cricketarchive.com


So, let the great countdown to 160 Test wickets and 471 Test runs begin...
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Last edited by BanCricFan; Yesterday at 09:48 AM..
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  #2  
Old December 18, 2014, 04:14 PM
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Here is the Test stats of one of the great all-rounders Imran Khan (for comparison):



Test Career Batting and Fielding (1971-1991/92)
M I NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 Ct
Pakistan 88 126 25 3807 136 37.69 6 18 28
Test Career Bowling (1971-1991/92)
Balls Mdns Runs Wkts BB Ave 5wI 10wM SRate Econ
Pakistan 19458 727 8258 362 8-58 22.81 23 6 53.75 2.54
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  #3  
Old December 18, 2014, 04:47 PM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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Keith miller was a genuine all rounder as well. Usually the greats are fast bowlers so if shakib can get up there as a spinner it would be awesome, if he can end with a sub 30 bowling average and a 40+ batting average then it would be awesome!

Hoping he can get 300+ wickets and 5000+ runs, then he's there with botham, Imran and kapil (did he make 5000runs?).
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Old Yesterday, 02:10 AM
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Getting 300 wickets will be extremely difficult, seeing as how we don't get a lot of test matches.
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Old Yesterday, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gowza
Keith miller was a genuine all rounder as well. Usually the greats are fast bowlers so if shakib can get up there as a spinner it would be awesome, if he can end with a sub 30 bowling average and a 40+ batting average then it would be awesome!

Hoping he can get 300+ wickets and 5000+ runs, then he's there with botham, Imran and kapil (did he make 5000runs?).
YES KAPIL SCORED 5248 RUN & 4 TOOK 434 WKT

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  #6  
Old Yesterday, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoName
Getting 300 wickets will be extremely difficult, seeing as how we don't get a lot of test matches.
Even with such few Test matches I would be very surprised -and, all things being equal- if Shakib doesn't end up with close to 450 Test wickets and close to 6000 runs. If he stays fit and remains disciplined and motivated it shouldn't be that difficult. As Bangladesh get better in Test so will increase the chances of Shakib bowling more in the 2nd or last innings of the matches. Which means more wickets and with lesser Strike Rate, too.
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Old Yesterday, 03:43 AM
M.H.Rubel M.H.Rubel is offline
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Sharkib is a good allrounder but he is far from 300 wickets. Intact a long way to go. Wishing success for him. Hoping he will be included in greatest allrounder of all time.
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Old Yesterday, 04:20 AM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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It's very much dependant on how many test matches Bangladesh play, if shakib can play another 40 tests then he should reach the 300 wicket mark and make 5000+ runs. He's not too far off 3000 runs so that one should happen, but atm he's still got about 60 more wickets until he gets 200.

I'd love it if he was to get 100 runs and 5 wickets in an innings a couple more times, doing that a couple more time and scoring 5000+ runs and getting 300+ wickets, well you couldn't really argue about his greatness then.
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Old Yesterday, 05:39 AM
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33 tests over the next four yrs. Lets say 5 wkts per test on avg.... Thats 165 wkts. If we play zim more often 500 wkts wont be far.
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  #10  
Old Yesterday, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadukor
33 tests over the next four yrs. Lets say 5 wkts per test on avg.... Thats 165 wkts. If we play zim more often 500 wkts wont be far.
5 wickets / match over the next 33 matches would bring Sakib's bowling average under 30. I know it from somewhere that a player needs to have batting average over 30 and bowling average under 30 to be called "genuine" all-rounder. He's only 27 years old at the moment and his golden years are still ahead of him. I'm pretty sure that he would be able to bring down his bowling average under 30 in test cricket.

He would probably reach 3000 runs mark at some point in 2015 if he plays in all seven test matches in the next year. 14 innings @ 38 runs would give him 532 runs. If he suffers a slump in batting form in 2015, then we would see him crossing 3000 runs mark during Zimbabwe series in early 2016.

@ BanCricFan - Sakib requires only 471 runs to touch 3000 runs mark. Could you please amend your opening post ? You said he requires 1471 runs to reach 3000 runs in test cricket. He is already on 2529 runs in test cricket.
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Old Yesterday, 09:52 AM
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^Thank you, Cricket4All. My bad. I need to resit my primary school maths test -it seems.

Yes, we could expect him to get that 3000 runs by the end of next year, InShaAllah.
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Old Yesterday, 10:16 AM
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My 2 cents:

We don't play that many tests as Ind, Aus, England. Past greats may have played equal number of tests as BD does now. So it is Mano against Mano.

200 wickets were considered as the benchmark that a bowler has some achievements. They made it. Most of the WI pack hunters don't have it. 300 was GREAT level. 355 was the highest ever for a long time. Draw was on the cards in almost every game. Batmen would block block and leave. Runrate would be shade over 2. Then came Botham, Hadlee, and Kapil Dev. We knew Kapil would break it one day because of the lack of options for Ind and fitness of him. Walsh took over. Finally Warne and Murali set the bar higher beyond anyone's reach.

Whatever Shakib ends up with is fine with me. As long as he can finish with a below 60 Strike rate and below 35 Average. The batting is what I am more worried about. Too aggressive even after so many years.
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Old Yesterday, 11:00 AM
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Here is my prediction about how his stats will look like at the end of his career in 2023 (in test matches). I'm assuming he'll be selected for minimum 63 test matches BD will play till 2023 (@ 7 matches/year) and Sakib will retire at the end of World Cup 2023.

Bowling:
Test match # 100, Wickets # 392, Average - 29.85
[@ 4 wickets / test match, from 2015 to 2023 ]
Batting:
Test match #100, Runs # 7590, Average - 39.50
[@ 40 runs / test innings, from 2015 to 2023 ]

His batting style doesn't give any indication about how serious he is to play for his own career stat, but I won't be surprised if he ends up his career with "4000 runs and 400 wicket" double in test cricket.

Last edited by Cricket4All; Yesterday at 12:50 PM..
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  #14  
Old Yesterday, 11:10 AM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
My 2 cents:

We don't play that many tests as Ind, Aus, England. Past greats may have played equal number of tests as BD does now. So it is Mano against Mano.

200 wickets were considered as the benchmark that a bowler has some achievements. They made it. Most of the WI pack hunters don't have it. 300 was GREAT level. 355 was the highest ever for a long time. Draw was on the cards in almost every game. Batmen would block block and leave. Runrate would be shade over 2. Then came Botham, Hadlee, and Kapil Dev. We knew Kapil would break it one day because of the lack of options for Ind and fitness of him. Walsh took over. Finally Warne and Murali set the bar higher beyond anyone's reach.

Whatever Shakib ends up with is fine with me. As long as he can finish with a below 60 Strike rate and below 35 Average. The batting is what I am more worried about. Too aggressive even after so many years.
A strike rate below 60 for a spinner is quite rare.
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Old Yesterday, 12:14 PM
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For me Imran and Botham were the genuine allrounders out of the four greats. Hadlee, perhaps, the best bowler out of the four but his batting wasn't on the same level as Immy or Beefy. As destructive as Kapil was with the bat his bowling SR was significantly higher than the other four. If I was press hard I would tend to agree with maestro Richard Hadlee that Imran was the greatest allrounder after Great Gary Sobers.

Shakib is already out performing Great Immy when it comes to scoring Test 50s in half the matches played. Shakib is a much more attacking bat than Imran was but still has a better batting average. Imran has a lot of not outs next to his name. I would say Shakib is the better bat without much doubt. He is only expected to get even better with age as did great Imran Khan. He is expected to pick up bucket-loads of wickets, too.

There is all the indication that -all things being equal- Shakib might be eyeing none other than the great Master Sobers himself. As Cricket4All would put it -Shakib Al-Hasan needs to dream BIG and work like there is no tomorrow and pray that the Lord might be a little kind to him in his quest. So, dream BIG, work HARD and pray MUCH, Mr. Al-Hasan!
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Old Yesterday, 06:31 PM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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Beefy was awesome, if you compare him with ambrose after 81 matches beefy had 346 wickets and ambrose 341, he also had more 5fers and 10fers, strike rate was similar, plus at that stage a defy had a 35 bat average with 13 tons, incredible.

Imran was a great all rounder but personally I'd rank them sobers, miller/procter, beefy/imran/rice, kapil/hadlee then shakib then cairns then guys like pollock.

Imo miller and Procter were the most all round talented probably equal with sobers, they weren't quite as talented batsmen but more talented with the ball than Garry. All three were terrific fielders in any position and very good captains.

Beefy and imran I rate very close because obviously imran had the better stats, he maintained longer, if you include captaincy then imran probably edges it, beefy was a much much better fielder though and a more talented batsman, had beefy not played his last 20 or so test matches then I think many would rate him equal or higher than imran but due to his decline people tend to rate imran much higher. Beefs two bug downfalls are his general decline and his poor form against the windies which imo if you look into is more to do with captaincy pressure and later injuries rather than being hopeless against them as he did get a fast 80 odd and an 8fer against them in the same match when he was already in decline.

Rice was a harder worker, talented at everything but really got the most out of his talent, a very high talent ceiling but compared to Procter, miller, imran, beefy, maybe it wasn't quite as high, stil in the top 10 all rounders all time imo even though he didn't play a single test, he most likely would have averaged 35+ with bat with probably around 10 or so tons and 200+ wickets with ball at average under 25.

Kapil just had an incredible strike rate with bat but he was a more limited batsman, aggressive like no other sure, but it's really the only way he could play, didn't have really have the skills to play various types of innings depending on situation. Not quite as talented with ball either but he slogged it out in home conditions to get 400+ wickets. Hadlee the best bowler of he great 4, far behind with the bat though still averaged 30+ with 10+ tons in domestic cricket. I reckon Procter was right up their with hadlee with the ball but much better with the bat hence I rate Procter that much higher than hadlee who is already amazing.

Shakib is doing very well, he's on track, he's scoring runs at good average, getting tons, getting 50s, taking wickets at a good average for a spinner, 4fers, 5fers, has a 10fer, he's done the 5 wickets and 100 runs in an innings a couple of times, he's a really good fielder. Main thing for shak is to score more tons, and get that bowling average under 30 and lower that strike rate to about 60 or under if possible (very difficult with the strike rate). If he can do that his batting is as good as an other genuine all rounder and his bowling is on par with other spin greats outside of murali, warne and o'reilly (though his strike rate is high).
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  #17  
Old Today, 12:14 AM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
My 2 cents:

We don't play that many tests as Ind, Aus, England. Past greats may have played equal number of tests as BD does now. So it is Mano against Mano.

200 wickets were considered as the benchmark that a bowler has some achievements. They made it. Most of the WI pack hunters don't have it. 300 was GREAT level. 355 was the highest ever for a long time. Draw was on the cards in almost every game. Batmen would block block and leave. Runrate would be shade over 2. Then came Botham, Hadlee, and Kapil Dev. We knew Kapil would break it one day because of the lack of options for Ind and fitness of him. Walsh took over. Finally Warne and Murali set the bar higher beyond anyone's reach.

Whatever Shakib ends up with is fine with me. As long as he can finish with a below 60 Strike rate and below 35 Average. The batting is what I am more worried about. Too aggressive even after so many years.
Sub 60 strike rate is tough even for seamers. Zaheer Khan barely has a sub 60 strike rate. For a spinner any SR under 70 is good. Murali had a SR of 54, Warner was a little higher. Probably the only spinners with sub 60 SR. Shakib is an all rounder, not even a specialist spinner. Vettori has a SR in the high 70s...Rafique too. Spinners bowl long spells...don't need a super low strike rate as long as econ rate is good.

And whoever said genuine all rounder has to average under 30. Kapil doesn't average under 30, even if he does, only just. Kallis doesn't average under 30. Heck most specialist bowlers don't' average under 30. My definitions of a true all rounder:

1) Batting avg 30+, bowling avg 35-
2) Batting avg > bowling avg with bat avg at least 25

We should be playing 60+ tests over the next 8 years. Shakib will be about 35 by then. He is fit enough to last that long. Don't know if he will be able to play much after that. Current rate he has 140 wickets from 40 tests...He should get 160+ from another 50.
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  #18  
Old Today, 03:15 AM
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Imo this is the record Shakib will do same damage to (http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/con...ds/282787.html)

We wont get to play much tests, and that also very rarely away and against more competitive sides. But in ODI's we ll probably play against all sides. Roughly Shakib plays around 20 ODI's a year. So if he plays till 34-35 he will have at least another 7-8 years or 150 ODI's. At his current average he will definitely score another 3500-4000 to take his run tally to around 8000, and maybe double his wicket haul to around 360-380.

If he can really work on his game and be a bit more consistent, 10,000 and 400 not impossible. That ll put him in the category of best ODI all rounder of all time.
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Old Today, 05:28 AM
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Al Furqaan,

Common knowledge dictates that the batting average should be higher than the bowling average. No dispute there. And, since we are talking GENUINE allrounders here a bowling average of more than 33 is too high, in my opinion. Batting average should be higher than 35 and bowling around 30 or below for determining a true great.

Jeesh,

I really don't appreciate this elitist tone of "playing more competitive side" or "away" comments in your post. It soils and seriously undermines the great efforts Shakib has made so far. Imran Khan did pick up bucket-loads of wickets at an average below 15 (!) against a relatively weaker SL. Ian Botham used to wallop Indians above 70 with the bat. No one bemoans those stats or ask for their removal from the records. Why not just accept then Sri Lanka and current Zimbabwe (or Bangladesh) as an equal. We all play Test cricket. Otherwise, cricket should be limited to just Australia and England for an untarnished record?

And, stating Shakib will challenge the ODI records is like saying a German or a Swiss train will arrive at the platform on time!
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Old Today, 06:11 AM
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@BanCricFan do notice there wasnt any criticism for Shakib's efforts. Its just that we probably wont be playing enough test cricket for him to do some damage to test records. I think i read in Cricinfo that Bangladesh "could" play 64 Test Matches (There is a big if here also, provided other boards agree) in the next 8 years, and of that 24 will be against New Zealand and Zimbabwe. No one finds it meaningful to play us in this format.

Shakib wont just challenge the records he might end up topping. He is likely to pick more wickets than Jayasuriya and Kallis, but in terms of runs scored he ll probably fall short.
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Old Today, 12:24 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeesh
@BanCricFan do notice there wasnt any criticism for Shakib's efforts. Its just that we probably wont be playing enough test cricket for him to do some damage to test records. I think i read in Cricinfo that Bangladesh "could" play 64 Test Matches (There is a big if here also, provided other boards agree) in the next 8 years, and of that 24 will be against New Zealand and Zimbabwe. No one finds it meaningful to play us in this format.

Shakib wont just challenge the records he might end up topping. He is likely to pick more wickets than Jayasuriya and Kallis, but in terms of runs scored he ll probably fall short.
Jeesh, I'm fairly certain that we will be playing 8 Tests per year. Teams like SL, IND, PAK are playing 12-13 a year from what it seems. So we are playing only two thirds of what other teams are playing, but guys like Mushfiq, Tamim, Shakib still have a chance at getting pretty high up charts because if they remain fit and play till 40, they can get near 150 Tests. Even with PAK, SL playing so many Tests its unlikely that an Umar Akmal or a Chandimal will play 150 Tests, maybe a young player like Dickwella might. Now Tamim's smoking and fitness are poor...I don't see him playing much more than 100 Tests, forget about 125 or 150. He's out, he will be just a mediocre player (great by BD standards) but he will do well to score 6000 Test runs. Not even on the list of highest run scorers.

Shakib has better fitness and has stated his intention of playing till the 2023 WC at least. Although his fitness isn't good, he is not a smoker and that is a huge thing. Shakib can play till age 40...if he does that he can threaten 8000+ Test runs and 400+ wickets.

Mushfiq, is tremendously fit. His fitness and work ethich rank up their with the best of game. He can easily play till 40, form permitting. Since his career really took off at age 18, that makes for potentially the second longest career behind only SRT. Mushy has a pretty good shot at geting 150 caps. If he eventually gives up the gloves, he could even go on to score 10,000 runs.

Mominul is another no nonsense guy like that. He had a relatively late start to his career not debuting until 21 (that is super young by SL or AUS standards). He has already stated his intention of playing till age 40. Has 12 caps after 2 years, another 16 years at 8 tests per year takes him to 140 Tests. He is currently averaging 100 runs per match, which if he maintains that will score 14,000 Test runs. So Mominul is the other guy who has a shot at 10,000+ runs.

I think Taskin has the talent to get 250 or even 300+ Test wickets. Of course he will have to remain fit, but if he continues to develop, there's no reason not to. Not many 19 year olds are as quick or skilled as he is, so there's no reason not to get excited. He also has the correct mindset unlike the Shahadat's and the Rubel's.

******************

As far as the FTP goes, I am reasonably sure, tho not certain we will get the 64 tests over the next 8 years. A four year draft has been leaked and we play 33 Tests in 4 years, also there really is no reason why top teams would avoid playing us because to be honest, WI, NZ, and SL don't pull much more money than we do. Only the big 3 pulls crowds and corporate dollars.

They won't drastically change the draft released in July. Because its not just about cutting BD out, it would involve rearranging all 8 other teams' schedule to accomodate more matches between them.

Also, there is a slight chance that IRE might get test status either by beating ZIM or outright getting full member status. That would add more tests.

Most of our matches will be against non Big 3 teams, but that shouldn't matter. A Test is a Test. We're not playing against Kenya or Canada. Take out BD and ZIM, and Murali would be 100 wickets behind Warne, but no one remembers that.
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Old Today, 12:28 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanCricFan
Al Furqaan,

Common knowledge dictates that the batting average should be higher than the bowling average. No dispute there. And, since we are talking GENUINE allrounders here a bowling average of more than 33 is too high, in my opinion. Batting average should be higher than 35 and bowling around 30 or below for determining a true great.

Jeesh,

I really don't appreciate this elitist tone of "playing more competitive side" or "away" comments in your post. It soils and seriously undermines the great efforts Shakib has made so far. Imran Khan did pick up bucket-loads of wickets at an average below 15 (!) against a relatively weaker SL. Ian Botham used to wallop Indians above 70 with the bat. No one bemoans those stats or ask for their removal from the records. Why not just accept then Sri Lanka and current Zimbabwe (or Bangladesh) as an equal. We all play Test cricket. Otherwise, cricket should be limited to just Australia and England for an untarnished record?

And, stating Shakib will challenge the ODI records is like saying a German or a Swiss train will arrive at the platform on time!
BCF, an all rounder is by definition not as good as a specialist. If Jimmy Anderson is a specialist seamer, and a pretty good one at that, and he doesn't average under 30. Under 30 is a world class bowling average. Harbajan doesn't average under 30, Vaas barely averages under 30, Srinath doesn't, Zaheer doesn't, etc. Even 35 is a pretty good average. Ishant is a specialist and averages around 37.

Kallis averages 32-33...is he not a good all rounder than?

under 35 is very good for a genuine all rounder, under 30 is phenomenal.
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Old Today, 12:32 PM
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Jeesh,

An allrounder (cricketer) doesn't have to play 150 Tests or get 10000 runs and 500 wickets for the recognition as a true great.

If Shakib plays around 70 Tests and his batting average is close to 40 and bowling 30 or below and SR around 60 he will go down as one of the true greats in my book. As an allrounder Jayasuriya is nowhere near the talent of Shakib. Infact, had Mashrafe taken his batting a bit more seriously he would have given some of them in the mid table a real run for their money.
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Old Today, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
BCF, an all rounder is by definition not as good as a specialist. .
Again, you got that terribly wrong, AL. We are talking a GENUINE allrounder here -not a bits and pieces. You trying to tell me a Richard Hadlee, Imran Khan, Ian Botham, Kapil Dev or a Garry Sobers are not as good a bowler as your "specialist"...Jimmy Who? That's why the very assertion that they will make a side either for their bowling or batting alone! You think Shakib wouldn't have been considered a specialist bowler in the Bangladesh side if he didn't bat? Check out his stats and those of the specialists...while at it check out his batting stats, too.

Btw, where did you get this definition of an allrounder? Gowza (sorry mate, couldn't resist) ?
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Old Today, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanCricFan
Again, you got that terribly wrong, AL. We are talking a GENUINE allrounder here -not a bits and pieces. You trying to tell me a Richard Hadlee, Imran Khan, Ian Botham, Kapil Dev or a Garry Sobers are not as good a bowler as your "specialist"...Jimmy Who? That's why the very assertion that they will make a side either for their bowling or batting alone! You think Shakib wouldn't have been considered a specialist bowler in the Bangladesh side if he didn't bat? Check out his stats and those of the specialists...while at it check out his batting stats, too.

Btw, where did you get this definition of an allrounder? Gowza (sorry mate, couldn't resist) ?
Hadlee had a poor batting average under 25 I think. Botham had a poor bowling avg over 30. By your own definition they don't count as good all rounders.

How many Lankan specialist bowlers average under 35? 35 is a fine cutoff for all rounders. Under 30 is like saying a batsman has to average 50+ to be considered mediocre. Its setting the bar too high.
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