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  #176  
Old September 21, 2014, 11:31 AM
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BanCricFan BanCricFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gowza
BD shouldn't have test status if they're happy with batsmen averaging 28, expectations need to be higher. don't compare BD to other test nations? sorry but that is who they are playing if they don't want to be comparable then they shouldn't be in competition with each other.

also riyad's test average of 28 is bad by BD standards not just world standards. tamim averages 36, nasir, 36, mushy 33 (but averaged in the 40s and 50s in recent years), shakib nearly 38, mominul 60+.
Once again, it seems despite all my trying in reaching out I'm hitting a brick wall. I hope its not a deliberate ploy on your behalf on ignoring the unignorable. What "should be" is one thing and what "REALLY is" another. In theory, every Test side should be able to produce Waqars and Wasims or Roberts and Holdings or Steyns and Morkels or Warnes and Muralis or Laras and Tendulkars in their numbers. They REALITY is they don't. Yes, BD is playing Test cricket but don't expect them to be like SA or Aus -just now. There is a very good reason why we are languishing at the bottom of the table. We are simply not good enough -at this stage. Again, thats the absolute naked truth. It doesn't rule out the possibility of us climbing the ladder in the future, though. For that to happen we must make drastic changes to our set up. Not before that. Right now the gulf that exist between us and the top cricket nations is much greater than us and PNG, Afghanistan or Ireland. Again this is quite an observable reality.

Also, please, don't insult your intelligence by trying to falsly convince yourself that there is a huge difference between an average of 28 and 33/36. And, the truth is they all are very poor -by Test standards. And, lets not forget Riyad is an "allrounder" -he bowls too. When you do this you simply come across very desperate and hell-bent on "winning" an argument. Instead of positively contributing in a discussion.
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  #177  
Old September 21, 2014, 05:22 PM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanCricFan
Once again, it seems despite all my trying in reaching out I'm hitting a brick wall. I hope its not a deliberate ploy on your behalf on ignoring the unignorable. What "should be" is one thing and what "REALLY is" another. In theory, every Test side should be able to produce Waqars and Wasims or Roberts and Holdings or Steyns and Morkels or Warnes and Muralis or Laras and Tendulkars in their numbers. They REALITY is they don't. Yes, BD is playing Test cricket but don't expect them to be like SA or Aus -just now. There is a very good reason why we are languishing at the bottom of the table. We are simply not good enough -at this stage. Again, thats the absolute naked truth. It doesn't rule out the possibility of us climbing the ladder in the future, though. For that to happen we must make drastic changes to our set up. Not before that. Right now the gulf that exist between us and the top cricket nations is much greater than us and PNG, Afghanistan or Ireland. Again this is quite an observable reality.

Also, please, don't insult your intelligence by trying to falsly convince yourself that there is a huge difference between an average of 28 and 33/36. And, the truth is they all are very poor -by Test standards. And, lets not forget Riyad is an "allrounder" -he bowls too. When you do this you simply come across very desperate and hell-bent on "winning" an argument. Instead of positively contributing in a discussion.
So now you're insulting me. All my points are valid. Tamim has 4 tons, mushy 3, mominul 3, those players are certainly a distance ahead of riyad, shakib is to and nasir apart from his last 2 test matches has been a very good test match performer with one ton and a number of 90s.

BD does have test standard players, riyad isn't one of them (so far for any decent period). He has potential but so do others and riyad has had his chance, others haven't been as fortunate but some do deserve a chance. BD won't improve if they keep selecting players like riyad who are talented but don't develop e.g. Ash, alok, aftab, saleh, SN, junaid, shahadat and riyad is dangerously close to being grouped with those players.
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Last edited by Gowza; September 21, 2014 at 08:42 PM..
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  #178  
Old September 21, 2014, 07:45 PM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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Riyad averages nearly 47 with the ball, take out zim and WI (where he did well against a severely weakened team a few years ago) his average is 59, he hasn't been an effective bowler in tests other than against that weakened WI team. If you want to pick riyad that is fine but being that he hasn't really performed consistently then it's a pick based on talent but when that talent has been given as many opportunities as riyad then you have to start considering other options.
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  #179  
Old September 21, 2014, 10:30 PM
jeesh jeesh is offline
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At the moment Nasir isnt contributing in any way. Even his fielding has dropped. So he ll definitely be the one for the chop once Shakib returns-i.e. in the test matches. In the ODI's, perhaps we can give him another go and see if he can recover form. There is no better opportunity than to do it against Zimbabwe at home. An in form Nasir can be an invaluable player for Bangladesh, but then again a free ride cannot be given. Doesnt give the right message to the players.

Riyad has improved his bowling off late, at least he isnt far from Gazi. GIves the ball more rip, has developed an arm ballish type delivery which is delivered with an angled arm. Then he has also got that delay delivery. Consistency though isnt there, but then again Gazi is no better. Riyad was dissapointing in WI in the tests. In Shakib's absence, expectation was more. Perhaps he doesnt have the concentration and stamina in tests. You need to keep bowling good length over after over, tiring the batsman and forcing him to make a mistake. But Riyad may be able to bowl 3 dots in a raw but then will give a short one or half volley which totally puts the batsman back in the drivers seat.
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  #180  
Old September 21, 2014, 10:40 PM
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Nasir has performed better in all formats compared to Ryad. Tests, ODIs, T20s, FC.. (List A record is comparable). Nasir's technique is definitely inferior to Ryads but the guy covers it up with guts and the ability to deliver during pressure situations. Right now he is completely out of form. We must do everything we can to not lose this player. Hope the coaches find a way to bring him back to form.
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  #181  
Old September 22, 2014, 12:03 AM
jeesh jeesh is offline
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Nothing significantly wrong with his technique. He can manage. Shot selection, approach to building an innings is issue.

This is where Hathurusingha is supposed to have some ability, as he had experience in turning around players careers in Sri Lanka. Our players are obviously more stubborn and will be unwilling to listen, learn and adapt. But still it ll be one of the coach's biggest tests.

Mentioned this in another post, Nasir needs to back his strength which is his athleticism. Pick one,s two's, convert the odd two to three by pressurizing the fielders. Yet time and time again, he tries gets bogged down due to his inability to score and then edges to keeper by trying to hit the ball hard or lofts one in the air. Once he gets to 25-30, his eye is in, boundaries will come easier.

This once again is due to lack of intelligence or a good cricketing brain. Every player must be able to assess his own strength and weakness and play according to those.
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  #182  
Old September 22, 2014, 01:12 AM
dark mage dark mage is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gowza
riyad's test average of under 20 batting 1-7 from 18 innings (10 matches) supports your point well. also nasir averages 38 in BD, 49 in SL and 58 in zimbabwe, 2 bad matches in WI is exactly that, just 2 bad matches out of 16.
This only supports what I said, in Sri Lanka, we played on a very flat track which didn't test the players technique, all you needed was patience and right temperament to score runs and Zimbawean pacers just weren't fast enough. I mean, you can see and have an off-form Tamim who ncan still somehow hang around due to his defensive techniques but can you say the same about Imrul? An off-form Mominul can still be trusted because of his defensive techniques but can the same be said about Anamul? Nasiir and Anamul have the same problems, they both have adequate technique for ODIs but their flaws will be exploited in Tests. There are some things that can't be overcome with guts alone.

I am an engineer but I can't do the work of a neurosurgeon and perform a surgery with my guts.

Look mate, I love Nasir and I don't really like Riyad, as I dislike his sissy attitude. I mean how can I forget the Nasir who played such awesome innings under pressure in the Asia Cup, his devil-may-care attitude was refreshing but at a certain stage when opponents start to notice you more, they will plan for exploiting your weaknesses. I mean look how the English bowlers tried to find Tamim's weaknesses but the only thing they could come up with was his impatience. Like I have a feeling Mominul is weak on his legs and the on-side but phenomenal on the off-side, however, I have faith in the kid to work on his flaws.

For the record I am against dropping Nasir but he needs to work a lot on his technique and the same goes for Anamul
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  #183  
Old September 22, 2014, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dark mage
This only supports what I said, in Sri Lanka, we played on a very flat track which didn't test the players technique, all you needed was patience and right temperament to score runs and Zimbawean pacers just weren't fast enough. I mean, you can see and have an off-form Tamim who ncan still somehow hang around due to his defensive techniques but can you say the same about Imrul? An off-form Mominul can still be trusted because of his defensive techniques but can the same be said about Anamul? Nasiir and Anamul have the same problems, they both have adequate technique for ODIs but their flaws will be exploited in Tests. There are some things that can't be overcome with guts alone.

I am an engineer but I can't do the work of a neurosurgeon and perform a surgery with my guts.
I can give you plenty of names of players who did not have the best technique but got the job done. Anamul and Nasir do not have the same problem. Anamul's footwork is non existent. Nasir is not that bad when he is in form. I agree that He scored heavily in the subcontinent but that can be said with most subcontinental players. The problem is our other players fail even on flat tracks so we cannot discredit Nasir's runs because of that.
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  #184  
Old September 22, 2014, 01:41 AM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dark mage
This only supports what I said, in Sri Lanka, we played on a very flat track which didn't test the players technique, all you needed was patience and right temperament to score runs and Zimbawean pacers just weren't fast enough. I mean, you can see and have an off-form Tamim who ncan still somehow hang around due to his defensive techniques but can you say the same about Imrul? An off-form Mominul can still be trusted because of his defensive techniques but can the same be said about Anamul? Nasiir and Anamul have the same problems, they both have adequate technique for ODIs but their flaws will be exploited in Tests. There are some things that can't be overcome with guts alone.

I am an engineer but I can't do the work of a neurosurgeon and perform a surgery with my guts.

Look mate, I love Nasir and I don't really like Riyad, as I dislike his sissy attitude. I mean how can I forget the Nasir who played such awesome innings under pressure in the Asia Cup, his devil-may-care attitude was refreshing but at a certain stage when opponents start to notice you more, they will plan for exploiting your weaknesses. I mean look how the English bowlers tried to find Tamim's weaknesses but the only thing they could come up with was his impatience. Like I have a feeling Mominul is weak on his legs and the on-side but phenomenal on the off-side, however, I have faith in the kid to work on his flaws.

For the record I am against dropping Nasir but he needs to work a lot on his technique and the same goes for Anamul
Ok well I never said nasir had perfect technique or anything like, in fact I even agreed his technique isn't the best. I don't hate riyad, reckon he's quite talented, just think he's wasted too many chances and it's time to give someone else the opportunity. There are times I've supported riyad and said he should be in the team when others have wanted him out.

Nasir hasn't had enough opportunities in tests to say whether he can or can't make it outside the subcon long term, nasir doing badly in just 2 tests has created an overreaction imo, especially since we already knew he was out of form.
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  #185  
Old September 22, 2014, 01:48 AM
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Even players with great technique can fail, technique isn't everything.
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  #186  
Old September 22, 2014, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gowza
So now you're insulting me. All my points are valid. Tamim has 4 tons, mushy 3, mominul 3, those players are certainly a distance ahead of riyad, shakib is to and nasir apart from his last 2 test matches has been a very good test match performer with one ton and a number of 90s.

BD does have test standard players, riyad isn't one of them (so far for any decent period). He has potential but so do others and riyad has had his chance, others haven't been as fortunate but some do deserve a chance. BD won't improve if they keep selecting players like riyad who are talented but don't develop e.g. Ash, alok, aftab, saleh, SN, junaid, shahadat and riyad is dangerously close to being grouped with those players.

Young man/woman,

Its all very clear now that you're actually not interested in a discussion. Now you're blatantly employing the ingenious method of going around in circles. Hva er en annen enn den som troll?

The initial discussion involved only Riyad and HOM. Now you're bringing up the issues of Tamim, Mushy or Momin have more tons or they are a better bat than Riyad! Was this part of the initial argument? Why are you derailing this conversation with such red herrings? For the last time and to put your cleverness in its place - The Great Sissy Riyad is a late order bat -which you very conveniently overlook. Therefore, naturally, he will have less tons than any top order. And, WOW! Tamim has a massive FOUR Test tons!

Thats it! I WILL not feed the trolls!
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  #187  
Old September 22, 2014, 02:51 AM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanCricFan
Young man/woman,

Its all very clear now that you're actually not interested in a discussion. Now you're blatantly employing the ingenious method of going around in circles. Hva er en annen enn den som troll?

The initial discussion involved only Riyad and HOM. Now you're bringing up the issues of Tamim, Mushy or Momin have more tons or they are a better bat than Riyad! Was this part of the initial argument? Why are you derailing this conversation with such red herrings? For the last time and to put your cleverness in its place - The Great Sissy Riyad is a late order bat -which you very conveniently overlook. Therefore, naturally, he will have less tons than any top order. And, WOW! Tamim has a massive FOUR Test tons!

Thats it! I WILL not feed the trolls!
You said he's good by BD standards, maybe in talent but I was proving in performance he isn't. As far as being lower down the order, check his stats higher up the order.
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  #188  
Old September 22, 2014, 02:56 AM
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moved to related thread
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