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  #276  
Old May 3, 2013, 04:41 PM
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reverse_swing reverse_swing is offline
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This is an utter humiliation for us but considering Hasina's background, I am not surprised. She is perhaps the most incompetent leader to ever govern Bangladesh.
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  #277  
Old May 3, 2013, 05:45 PM
HereWeGo HereWeGo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah
AL is not liberal. What you probably mean is that they are less conservative.

Can't imagine a pro-death penalty, big military spending, big government, pro-censorship, party like Al being called a left-leaning liberals. They are anything but.

They are as opportunistic as BNP, they will do anything that will help them stay in power only to turn the other way when they don't need to appease anyone.

Heh, left leaning liberals my a$$,
less conservative or liberal, Whatever helps you sleep at night bro...

In principal I believe in secularism, equal rights, minority rights and a governement free from any religious bias and someone who promotes the country's rich culture.... In all those aspects the other party is a distant second..

If liberal is defined by military spending and capital punishment than Democrats in USA are not liberals either....
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  #278  
Old May 3, 2013, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah
AL is not liberal. What you probably mean is that they are less conservative.

Can't imagine a pro-death penalty, big military spending, big government, pro-censorship, party like Al being called a left-leaning liberals. They are anything but.

They are as opportunistic as BNP, they will do anything that will help them stay in power only to turn the other way when they don't need to appease anyone.

Heh, left leaning liberals my a$$,
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  #279  
Old May 3, 2013, 10:54 PM
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BANFAN BANFAN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HereWeGo
If you dont believe that AL are left leaning liberals and BNP is right leaning conservative than there is nothing much I can do about it...

Btw what is your thought abt the direction the sun rises and the direction it sets?
You ate quite intelligent.

Days aren't far that intelligent boot leakers will say BAKSAL was a liberal democracy; ya they fit in your definition too. Not religion based and more left that BNP.. If you also agree to this ill have to check the direction of sun next morning, to answer you, ..
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Last edited by BANFAN; May 3, 2013 at 11:48 PM..
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  #280  
Old May 4, 2013, 01:27 AM
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Sohel Sohel is offline
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The oxymoronic idea of a "benevolent" totalitarian dictatorship is quite prevalent within the Bangali petit-bourgeoisie in Bangladesh and India. BAKSAL is but one manifestation of that. The Marxist left of Mukti Bahini proposed a "revolutionary unity government of national reconstruction" modeled after the USSR and PRC fantasy after independence, and there was quite a lot of talk about a "national government" during the 1/11 regime. All believe that they have the right to speak for others and not be accountable to the ballot. That's why they all will fail in their effort. People take their right to vote VERY seriously in this country and any scheme designed to mislead people, who are maturing as voters BTW, into taking that right away will be rejected. Our people know that absolute power corrupts absolutely. Such schemes are also in total contravention to founding principle of democracy and equal treatment under the law.

Can we please avoid nasty and personal attacks in this forum, and simply agree to disagree without being sniveling little ******s? It has gotten old and irritating. The use of the term "BAKSAL (or any other SAL) bootlicker" is uncalled for. Heck, folks have the right to be downright anti-Bangladeshi in this country.

Anyway, I'm glad that there's a real possibility of dialogue between AL and BNP now. No election will be credible to our people unless both participate.
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Last edited by Sohel; May 4, 2013 at 02:52 AM..
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  #281  
Old May 4, 2013, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HereWeGo
less conservative or liberal, Whatever helps you sleep at night bro...
And with that, we can conclude todays course of your limited (or lack off) understanding of political system or political matters.

You can't throw around words like "liberal" without actually understanding what they mean.

If tomorrow the republican party in USA supports pro lgbt laws do they suddenly starts being liberal? Or in Saudi Arabia the king starts letting women drive and vote, he suddenly becomes a liberal king?

Being less conservative doesn't make the ideology of a party liberal, not being liberal doesn't make a party conservative. And most importantly USA's two party system is hardly the bastion of modern political system or a good example of one.

There are other school of political thoughts out there, you know...

The problem with you is that most of your understanding about things are grade school level and when people clearly points out your lack of understanding you go on a hissy fit like a 5 year old.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging your lack of knowledge and willing to learn.
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  #282  
Old May 4, 2013, 02:26 AM
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blah to bhaloi rap mere dilo last liney
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  #283  
Old May 4, 2013, 02:33 AM
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Sohel Sohel is offline
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Both major political parties in Bangladesh have their official ideology, and AL in particular has a significantly richer and longer history of successful political struggle, leading to the very creation of Bangladesh, driven by its liberal and social-democratic ideology up to 1973. So it is not unreasonable to talk about AL in terms of its ideological history. Whether its top leadership faithfully adheres to that ideology is a separate issue.

Personally, I'm faithful to those ideals even when most of the powerful AL leaders and their cronies don't give an ef. AL also has more caring, thoughtful and educated people at the grassroots level in my experience as a social activist working in urban slums and rural Bangladesh. Although most of them are marginalized, that gives me more hope about the party's eventual contribution to our rapid growth and common prosperity at some point.

Anyway, things began to go south for AL from 1974 -- thanks to the criminal combination of extrajudicial murder, nepotism, sycophancy, corruption and administrative ineptitude -- and culminated in the very short lived BAKSAL regime in 1975. BAKSAL was passed by a freely elected Parliament, but its constitutionality was not allowed to be challenged in Supreme Court. It is reasonable to assume that the SC would've thrown it out as unconstitutional, perhaps leading to a Rokkhi Bahini backed militarist dictatorship eliminating the independent judiciary altogether. Ironic that we had to survive more extrajudicial murder, nepotism, sycophancy, corruption and administrative ineptitude under a military regime that openly betrayed the Spirit of '71, and packed its political party with Al Shams Razakars and opportunists as the "alternative" choice

You cannot break the law to restore the rule of law. You cannot use anti-democratic means to restore democracy. Apparently not a no-brainer amongst the Bangali petit-bourgeoisie hellbent on throwing the baby out with the bathwater. A subverted democracy needs genuine democratic reform and that takes time, patience and vocal support of the silent majority. A dictatorship does none of those things.

In the modern world, we need only to look at nations like South Korea, Chile, Brazil, Turkey and to a lesser extent India to see what meaningful democratic reform can do for a populated country's economic growth.
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Last edited by Sohel; May 4, 2013 at 09:14 AM..
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  #284  
Old May 4, 2013, 07:52 AM
HereWeGo HereWeGo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah
And with that, we can conclude todays course of your limited (or lack off) understanding of political system or political matters.

You can't throw around words like "liberal" without actually understanding what they mean.

If tomorrow the republican party in USA supports pro lgbt laws do they suddenly starts being liberal? Or in Saudi Arabia the king starts letting women drive and vote, he suddenly becomes a liberal king?

Being less conservative doesn't make the ideology of a party liberal, not being liberal doesn't make a party conservative. And most importantly USA's two party system is hardly the bastion of modern political system or a good example of one.

There are other school of political thoughts out there, you know...

The problem with you is that most of your understanding about things are grade school level and when people clearly points out your lack of understanding you go on a hissy fit like a 5 year old.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging your lack of knowledge and willing to learn.


As I stated earlier I believe in
"In principal I believe in secularism, equal rights, minority rights and a governement free from any religious bias and A govt that promotes the country's rich culture" .. And in all those aspect the other party is a distant second...

I consider the above as being of a somewhat liberal mindset... if I am mistaken with my choice of word than I am sorry.......

Cheer up now.... if my lack of knowledge is such an eye sore for you than please ignore my posts....... being such an intellect that you claim you are, I find some of your choice of word really distasteful...
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  #285  
Old May 4, 2013, 07:53 AM
HereWeGo HereWeGo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohel
Both major political parties in Bangladesh have their official ideology, and AL in particular has a significantly richer and longer history of successful political struggle, leading to the very creation of Bangladesh, driven by its liberal and social-democratic ideology up to 1973. So it is not unreasonable to talk about AL in terms of its ideological history. Whether its top leadership faithfully adheres to that ideology is a separate issue.

Personally, I'm faithful to those ideals even when most of the powerful AL leaders and their cronies don't give an ef. AL also has more caring, thoughtful and educated people at the grassroots level in my experience as a social activist working in urban slums and rural Bangladesh. Although most of them are marginalized, that gives me more hope about the party's eventual contribution to our rapid growth and common prosperity at some point.

Anyway, things began to go south for AL from 1974 -- thanks to the criminal combination of extrajudicial murder, nepotism, sycophancy, corruption and administrative ineptitude -- and culminated in the very short lived BAKSAL regime in 1975. BAKSAL was passed by a freely elected Parliament, but its constitutionality was not allowed to be challenged in Supreme Court. It is reasonable to assume that the SC would've thrown it out as unconstitutional, perhaps leading to a Rokkhi Bahini backed militarist dictatorship eliminating the independent judiciary altogether. Ironic that we had to survive more extrajudicial murder, nepotism, sycophancy, corruption and administrative ineptitude under a military regime that openly betrayed the Spirit of '71, and packed its political party with Al Shams Razakars and opportunists as the "alternative" choice

You cannot break the law to restore the rule of law. You cannot use anti-democratic means to restore democracy. Apparently not a no-brainer amongst the Bangali petit-bourgeoisie hell bent on throwing the baby out with the bathwater. A subverted democracy needs genuine democratic reform and that takes time, patience and vocal support of the silent majority. A dictatorship does none of those things.

In the modern world, we need only to look at nations like South Korea, Chile, Brazil, Turkey and to a lesser extent India to see what meaningful democratic reform can do for a populated country's economic growth.

I wish I was as eloquent as you....
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  #286  
Old May 4, 2013, 08:16 AM
Zunaid Zunaid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HereWeGo

I wish I was as eloquent as you....
And I wish you understood what Sohel wrote.
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  #287  
Old May 4, 2013, 08:20 AM
HereWeGo HereWeGo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunaid
And I wish you understood what Sohel wrote.
LOL!!
Nice low blow... Cant counter this unfortunately
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  #288  
Old May 4, 2013, 08:31 AM
HereWeGo HereWeGo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HereWeGo
LOL!!
Nice low blow... Cant counter this unfortunately
just to be clear, I hate the idea of BAKSAL (dictatorship)... I hate Al thugs just as much as I hate any thugs, I hardly agree with most of their actions...
but I do believe in some of their ideologies which not necessarily they themselves follow..

btw DrZ, I didn't realize you held on to my post where I said "none of us are completely neutral " to claim your bias... It was just a banter.....
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  #289  
Old May 4, 2013, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohel
Both major political parties in Bangladesh have their official ideology, and AL in particular has a significantly richer and longer history of successful political struggle, leading to the very creation of Bangladesh, driven by its liberal and social-democratic ideology up to 1973. So it is not unreasonable to talk about AL in terms of its ideological history. Whether its top leadership faithfully adheres to that ideology is a separate issue.
The thing is the current top leadership dictates what should or should not be ideology of a political party.

The problem I have with sticking to political party is that their ideology as a whole is not sticky. They change and morphs over time to meet their political agenda as opposed to their ideological agenda. A good example is the history of USA political parties, if you go back 60-70 years the political ideologies of the republicans and the democrats were the exact opposite of what it currently is.

While we can all be glassy eyed thinking about the ideological "sonar-bangla" dreams of "Moha-manob, Jatir Prita, Bongobondhu, Sheikh Mojibor Rahman", but they never actually transfered in to actual actions.

So instead of blindly grabbing on to political parties and associate myself with them because of their past deeds or what they say they actually believe in, I rather judge them by their actions on current time, not what they said or did 40 years ago.
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  #290  
Old May 4, 2013, 01:44 PM
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All this back and forth and not a single burning car? I hereby declare you non-Bengalis.
Rabz agree somewhat with your post but I wasn't embarrassed to be Bangladeshi that our PM was ripped a new one on international TV. It is part of the process of adding maturity and sophistication to our politics - learn how to handle the tough questions. Learning process should never be embarrassing.
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  #291  
Old May 4, 2013, 02:32 PM
Cric_2 Cric_2 is offline
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Learning process should never be embarrassing.[/QUOTE]


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  #292  
Old May 4, 2013, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RazabQ
All this back and forth and not a single burning car? I hereby declare you non-Bengalis.
Rabz agree somewhat with your post but I wasn't embarrassed to be Bangladeshi that our PM was ripped a new one on international TV. It is part of the process of adding maturity and sophistication to our politics - learn how to handle the tough questions. Learning process should never be embarrassing.
good post
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  #293  
Old May 4, 2013, 09:33 PM
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Thank u sohel bhai for ur nice post. Really, that was a nice read. I have heard similar sorts of things from my parents. Anyway what I don’t understand is why did mujib try to implement autocracy, i mean unconditionally he was the sole leader and more or less there was no other political parties without AL during that period. Then what was the necessity of such controversial decision. If there was an election and bal participated in that vote war under the leadership of mujib then it’s almost certain that they would definitely win in that election. But mujib didn’t follow that straight route rather he took the dark curved path and banned every other political party.

The question is what was his reason? Did he really felt that those two faced opposition force who didn’t appreciate the independence of Bangladesh were so strong that allowing all political parties to do politics will allow such hypo crates to participate in the countries’ decision making and later it could threaten the sovereignty of the country. It could be though. I guess it’s true that quite a few corrupted rich Pakistani minded people were present in the country during that era. As a result if mujib declared any election, hypothetically it can be said that these handful amount of rich people would use their black money to win some seats through election. Plus the number of isi agents who were visiting freely inside the country was also a headache for mujib. Actually these reasons were mentioned by mujib himself to a journalist named Abir in an interview to fortify the necessity of establishing bakshal . So, ya questions can be asked regarding the legitimacy behind such reasoning.

Anyway, on the other side someone can also assume that all these reasons given by mujib and bakshal sympathizer were actually just an eye wash. May be Mujib wanted to be a dictator like Hitler or late F Castro, and perhaps the implementation of bakshal was the first step of that long staircase to fulfill the cherished dream of mujib, who knows. Anyway all these are assumptions and it is almost impossible to reach a definite conclusion regarding the effectiveness of Bakshal as It was implemented for a real short period of time.

Was the intention of mujib good? Was it bad? Well we will never know. But it’s true that the 72-75 was not a happy era for mujib and bal. Understandably People will not forget that easily. I have heard that still people talks about the killings of rakkhi bahini , the bank robbery of kamal, the unavailability of sufficient relief during the famine etc, etc. Later many people found out that many of those relief materials were available in different departmental store which means bal thugs sold them instead of distributing them during that hard period of time. There are so many examples. So will we ditch mujib for all these? Hmm I don’t know……… So ya perhaps the thinking and planning of mujib was groundbreaking but the implementation of them was really poor. Moreover most of the time reason behind such mismanagement was either his family or his own party, which he failed to control.
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  #294  
Old May 5, 2013, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HereWeGo
I dont want to go into this stupid debate about who is worse... but to think BNP has less thugs than AL just goes to show your partisan bias. You can check the police records, or better check the archive of any decent newspaper in the country.. you will find your answer. Infact the law and order went so bad and it became so difficult to control the party thugs that bnp was forced to call the army for help (operation clean heart).

I can find a counter example against any allegation you make against AL and prove that BNP has done the same in the past.
You talk about Baksal, think about the farce election BNP held in 1996.
You talk about hallmark scam, try investigating the scams by Mamun (Tareq Zia's best friend) during BNP rule. Atleast the owner of hallmark is in jail now. Mamun was only taken to prison after 1/11
Abul Hossain is corrupt, but Nazmul huda (communication minster during BNP rule) was branded as the most corrupt after Tareq Zia. And not to mention just like Hasina thinks Abul is a desh premik, K.Zia thinks the same about his son and his minsters...

How about AL's most recent examples of "not accepting help" for the sake of national pride.... Well BNP refused free fiber connection for the sake of national security...

The list goes on and on...

I do hope u are also mistaken about BNP coming to power again...
You have two problems:

1. reading comprehension - you have none.
2. inference - because you have zero reading comprehension, you draw your inferences and conclusions.

Just so you get it this time, I will say it out LOUD AND CLEAR:

I hope that Jamaat or their cohorts (including BNP) never, ever, ever come to power in Bangladesh ever again.

This is my first and last response to you, so let me repeat what I said in that last post: AL will not win the next election. It is partially because of the completely incompetent ministers (like the finance minister and the home minister), the thugs (like Rana and Shamim Osman) and the braindead supporters (like you). Take care, pumpkin.
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  #295  
Old May 5, 2013, 03:14 PM
HereWeGo HereWeGo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhurr
You have two problems:

1. reading comprehension - you have none.
2. inference - because you have zero reading comprehension, you draw your inferences and conclusions.

Just so you get it this time, I will say it out LOUD AND CLEAR:

I hope that Jamaat or their cohorts (including BNP) never, ever, ever come to power in Bangladesh ever again.

This is my first and last response to you, so let me repeat what I said in that last post: AL will not win the next election. It is partially because of the completely incompetent ministers (like the finance minister and the home minister), the thugs (like Rana and Shamim Osman) and the braindead supporters (like you). Take care, pumpkin.


oh no!! Please dont stop responding.....

It is sad that people all of a sudden are calling me names but hardly care to explain how they reach such inference...

I accused both groups of crimes of equal magnitude in response to your post blaming just 1 party for all things evil. And you accuse me of being a fanboy... not sure how your logic works dude...

Last edited by HereWeGo; May 5, 2013 at 07:40 PM..
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  #296  
Old May 5, 2013, 10:21 PM
HereWeGo HereWeGo is offline
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I guess PM's interview was worse... but this is not much better either...

The reason we as a country shall always have problems is because we have always failed to recognise our shortcomings...

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  #297  
Old May 5, 2013, 11:05 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HereWeGo
I guess PM's interview was worse... but this is not much better either...
Still just a small price to pay...
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  #298  
Old May 5, 2013, 11:49 PM
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Tigers_eye Tigers_eye is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_
Thank u sohel bhai for ur nice post. Really, that was a nice read. I have heard similar sorts of things from my parents. Anyway what I don’t understand is why did mujib try to implement autocracy, i mean unconditionally he was the sole leader and more or less there was no other political parties without AL during that period. Then what was the necessity of such controversial decision. If there was an election and bal participated in that vote war under the leadership of mujib then it’s almost certain that they would definitely win in that election. But mujib didn’t follow that straight route rather he took the dark curved path and banned every other political party.

The question is what was his reason? Did he really felt that those two faced opposition force who didn’t appreciate the independence of Bangladesh were so strong that allowing all political parties to do politics will allow such hypo crates to participate in the countries’ decision making and later it could threaten the sovereignty of the country. It could be though. I guess it’s true that quite a few corrupted rich Pakistani minded people were present in the country during that era. As a result if mujib declared any election, hypothetically it can be said that these handful amount of rich people would use their black money to win some seats through election. Plus the number of isi agents who were visiting freely inside the country was also a headache for mujib. Actually these reasons were mentioned by mujib himself to a journalist named Abir in an interview to fortify the necessity of establishing bakshal . So, ya questions can be asked regarding the legitimacy behind such reasoning.

Anyway, on the other side someone can also assume that all these reasons given by mujib and bakshal sympathizer were actually just an eye wash. May be Mujib wanted to be a dictator like Hitler or late F Castro, and perhaps the implementation of bakshal was the first step of that long staircase to fulfill the cherished dream of mujib, who knows. Anyway all these are assumptions and it is almost impossible to reach a definite conclusion regarding the effectiveness of Bakshal as It was implemented for a real short period of time.

Was the intention of mujib good? Was it bad? Well we will never know. But it’s true that the 72-75 was not a happy era for mujib and bal. Understandably People will not forget that easily. I have heard that still people talks about the killings of rakkhi bahini , the bank robbery of kamal, the unavailability of sufficient relief during the famine etc, etc. Later many people found out that many of those relief materials were available in different departmental store which means bal thugs sold them instead of distributing them during that hard period of time. There are so many examples. So will we ditch mujib for all these? Hmm I don’t know……… So ya perhaps the thinking and planning of mujib was groundbreaking but the implementation of them was really poor. Moreover most of the time reason behind such mismanagement was either his family or his own party, which he failed to control.
You may heard something and drew conclusion from it but Only AL didn't free this country. AL's agenda was to have a PM of East and West Pakistan after the 70 DECEMBER election. Bhasani on the other hand had "ek dabi" no 5 points, 7 points. Just one that is liberation. There were other parties who participated as much if not more than the AL in liberating our beloved country. Jashod for example. Then there was people of Bangladesh who didn't have any party but wanted his/her country to be liberated. Not until February '71 AL switched their stands when they figured out Pak president would not let them have what they wanted. Razakars or their simpathesizers were a non-factor after the liberation. It was NAAP and Jashod who fought in the trenches in 71 a threat to AL. Thus the one party rule ideology came.
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  #299  
Old May 9, 2013, 12:30 AM
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Dhurr Dhurr is offline
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Kamruzzaman's verdict is due today. Word on the street is he won't get the death penalty.

You may be against the death penalty on moral grounds - and that's your right - but realize that a life sentence handed out to rajakars would most likely be commuted in the next government's term. So, any life sentence handed out to rajakars would actually not be served to the fullest. These people would be out and about in a year's time and some of them may become ministers - again.

So, even if you are against the death sentence morally, if you think Kamruzzaman and their ilk deserve punishment for the heinous atrocities of 1971, you should at least want justice to be served, and right now, the death sentence is the only verdict that would most likely be implemented in reality; any other verdict would let them scot-free in one year (and yes, yes, here's a disclaimer for my whiskey conservative brothers: AL commuted the death sentence of some its cohorts, and yes, that's heinous and set the precedent for what the BNP is about to do).
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  #300  
Old May 9, 2013, 01:53 AM
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Even though I am against the death sentence morally, my issue is not so much against the death penalty as it is with fair proceedings of ICT. Because of their involvement during the war, as war criminals they most definitely deserve some punishment. Not being able to hold on to a criminal in jail for a long time is a failure of our system, not a reason to give death penalty.
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