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  #201  
Old April 13, 2013, 04:30 AM
Zunaid Zunaid is offline
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What speech deserves the protection of the First Amendment under the US constitution is subject of much debate even in a country there are very constraints to the fundamental rights to free speech. Bangladesh hasn't yet matured to have a rational and intelligent discourse on the matter particularly as Bangladesh has low a very tolerance of contrary beliefs and thoughts. So you have calls for fashi chai calls for having non-conformist religious or political beliefs and the government or the judiciary throws in a charge of sedition or contempt of the court at the drop of a hat.

For those not familiar with the US constitution, here is the text of the First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

In the US, no Supreme Court justice has ever reasoned that free speech be absolute. There was one exception, Justice Hugo Black, who opined that "Congress shall make no law" meant exactly that - NO LAW WHATSOEVER.

At time the court has ruled that certain kinds of speech such as obscenity or libel deserve no protection whatsoever. Over times the categorical approach has evolved to be more nuanced - and it seems the justices generally believe that speech must have some value to merit protection under the First Amendment.

How is that relevant to Bangladesh?

Perhaps in my naive hope that one day people will be more tolerant and just because what you say may be unpopular does not automatically make you a target for lynching.

Thought crimes are never crimes - publicly expressed or otherwise.
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  #202  
Old April 13, 2013, 04:34 AM
Blah Blah is offline
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@sun_

Freedom of speech does not mean what you think it means.

For example:

You are free to say whatever you want to whoever you want, but you are also responsible for the things you say. If you are badmouth someone, with or without justification, you are subject to libel law.

You can not say whatever you want in a private settings, like inside someone's business premise or someone's property (or this forum). That person has the right to kick you out if you say something stupid. Or even file lawsuit against you if you signed an agreement before using their private premise, to not say certain things. This over-rides the constitution.

The newspaper has the right to write whatever they want, but they are also subject to libel laws.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can publish top secret military spec on national media and get away with it. You might be subject to treason law.

There are hundreds of corner cases like this that you can't necessarily make individual law for each corner case, that why you have something wholesale like "reasonable restrictions". I believe this is true for most modern democracy out there, but I am not a lawyer so I could be wrong.

The problem, in this case and as often is the case, is not the law but the abuse of the law. Regardless of whatever is in the constitution or whatever is missing in the constitution; it makes little difference if the government is morally corrupt. They will find ways to bypass said laws, or ignore it altogether. They will make politically motivated appointment in supreme court and make sure they don't have much opposition on their position.

Laws are just that, words written on a piece of paper, if you don't value these laws and you are corrupt government; the laws mean jackshit.
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  #203  
Old April 13, 2013, 01:24 PM
zsayeed zsayeed is offline
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Hefazot'e Mahmudur and Hefazot'e Jammat

Police have raided the press of daily Sangram , the mouthpiece of the Jamaat-e-Islami, after receiving information that the Daily Amar Desh was being printed there ‘illegally’.
http://bdnews24.com/bangladesh/2013/...m-press-raided
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  #204  
Old April 13, 2013, 01:26 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunaid
What speech deserves the protection of the First Amendment under the US constitution is subject of much debate even in a country there are very constraints to the fundamental rights to free speech. Bangladesh hasn't yet matured to have a rational and intelligent discourse on the matter particularly as Bangladesh has low a very tolerance of contrary beliefs and thoughts. So you have calls for fashi chai calls for having non-conformist religious or political beliefs and the government or the judiciary throws in a charge of sedition or contempt of the court at the drop of a hat.

For those not familiar with the US constitution, here is the text of the First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

In the US, no Supreme Court justice has ever reasoned that free speech be absolute. There was one exception, Justice Hugo Black, who opined that "Congress shall make no law" meant exactly that - NO LAW WHATSOEVER.

At time the court has ruled that certain kinds of speech such as obscenity or libel deserve no protection whatsoever. Over times the categorical approach has evolved to be more nuanced - and it seems the justices generally believe that speech must have some value to merit protection under the First Amendment.

How is that relevant to Bangladesh?

Perhaps in my naive hope that one day people will be more tolerant and just because what you say may be unpopular does not automatically make you a target for lynching.

Thought crimes are never crimes - publicly expressed or otherwise.
I had actually looked up our 1st Amendment (A1) the other day to see exactly what was written. People are always citing it, but 90% of people, myself included don't know the full text. Popular citations are that we "have a right to bear arms" and the right to "free speech", but full text provides the context with limitations.

Just like A2 talks not about Toms, Dicks, and Harrys, but a "well regulated militia" and was arguably written in the context of protecting slave owners from slave rebellions and not some totalitarian government in Washington, but A1 allows freedom to assemble so long as its "peaceble". Ie, I have the right to petition and picket, but not the right to riot. So rioting is something to be avoided. Now what if my free speech/actions incite to riot, and I am aware it will almost certainly incite to riot (eg fire in a crowded theatre, offensive religious cartoons, cops beating up intoxicated black men in LA, etc).

Thought crimes may themsevles not be punishable, but they do carry some form of "punishment". Think of the "hate crimes" statutes in many jurisdictions. If I beat up a man who happens to be gay, thats assault, and I get n years in jail. But if the prosecution can prove it was a hate crime I could get 2n or more years. So that is essentially 2 separate charges, assault n years + thought crime n+ years.
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  #205  
Old April 14, 2013, 07:44 AM
riajul riajul is offline
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Posted via BC Mobile Edition (Opera Mobile)

Last edited by riajul; April 14, 2013 at 11:57 AM..
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  #206  
Old April 14, 2013, 03:04 PM
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তত্ত্বাবধায়ক সরকার সত্যিই কি দরকার!!
এক সময় তত্ত্বাবধায়ক সরকার পদ্ধতির ঘোর বিরোধী ছিল বিএনপি। আজ ক্ষমতাসীন মহাজোট তত্ত্বাবধায়ক সরকার প্রশ্নে বিএনপির মতোই আপোসহীন। বড় বিচিত্র এদেশের রাজনীতি। জনকল্যাণ এখানে মুখ্য নয়, মোক্ষ লাভের একটি উপলক্ষ মাত্র। ক্ষমতাসীন হবার জন্য জনপ্রিয়তা বড় কোনো নিয়ামক নয়, যিনি জনতাকে যতবেশি ব্যবহার করতে পারেন তিনিই সরকারে গিয়ে সর খান। তাহলে রাজনীতিকদের কাজটা কী?
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  #207  
Old April 14, 2013, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riajul

Posted via BC Mobile Edition (Opera Mobile)
Your comment was ok. Yes, Abdul hai is now a Razakar and Prothom Alo is also waiting to hear something like that, unless they apologize and make that up. But I think, prothom Alo won't do that soon, they are trying to capture the market of Amardesh. In absence of Amardesh they want to be the right choice for them.... So they will have to make a few more news items, although this one wasn't exactly a news item...
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  #208  
Old April 14, 2013, 08:56 PM
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A video worth watching:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=590031817676484

There are some genuine questions, on the trial process. He means to say that, the tribunal is punishing the people completely innocent, leaving the actual Razakars.

Question on Muntasir Mamun and his entire family, who is always in good lime light during Awami terms, why there was none from his family who were adults, but haven't even joined the freedom fight, in any capacity and they pretend to be the most patriots?

Many interesting Questions Dr Zafrullah has raised in this interview. He himself has played a good role during the war and After in the service of the country.
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Last edited by BANFAN; April 14, 2013 at 11:31 PM..
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  #209  
Old April 14, 2013, 10:33 PM
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cricket_pagol cricket_pagol is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BANFAN
A video worth watching:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=590031817676484

There are some genuine questions, on the trial process. He means to say that, the tribunal is punishing the people completely innocent, leaving the actual Razakars.

Question on Muntasir Mamun and his entire family, who is always in good lime light during Awami terms, why the was none from his family who were adults, have even joined the freedom fight in any capacity and they pretend o be the most patriots?

A many interesting Questions Dr Zafrullah has. He himself has played a good role during the war and After in the service of the country.

thanks for sharing this video, he makes some very good points. I thank him for speaking up.
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Last edited by cricket_pagol; April 15, 2013 at 02:22 AM..
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  #210  
Old April 15, 2013, 05:27 AM
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Maysun Maysun is offline
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http://banglacricket.com/alochona/sh...postcount=5500

Thought of posting this here as well.
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  #211  
Old April 17, 2013, 07:43 PM
MohammedC MohammedC is offline
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Video thread is messed up. Posting this here.

Bangladeshism

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  #212  
Old April 17, 2013, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MohammedC
Video thread is messed up. Posting this here.

Bangladeshism


Cool campaign!
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  #213  
Old April 17, 2013, 10:17 PM
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Has the bearded guy been given that role on purpose?
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  #214  
Old April 17, 2013, 11:09 PM
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I did not know the details of the padma corruption, so I thought this is informative.

Quote:
According to a letter sent to the Bangladeshi government by a World Bank panel of experts, the alleged conspiracy dates back to the spring of 2011. SNC had been vying for a $50-million contract to supervise the construction of what is known as the Padma Bridge, a massive infrastructure project designed to link Bangladesh’s southwest with the capital city of Dhaka but has since been put on hold because of the corruption charges. SNC had been second in the running behind a British firm, Halcrow Group Ltd., until Mr. Shah and Kevin Wallace – then an SNC executive, who has since left the company – flew to Dhaka to meet with the then Bangladeshi communications minister, Syed Abdul Hossain.

After the meeting, Mr. Shah jotted down a number of percentages – “4% Min;... 1% secretary” – in a diary, the World Bank has said. The diary entry was later uncovered by the RCMP. (Mr. Wallace has not been charged with any crime.)
Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle11349133/
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  #215  
Old April 18, 2013, 12:14 AM
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One thing about the whole padma bridge scandal and how the government tried to cover it up by saying that how can you steal (or be charged for corruption) when we didn't even receive any loan from WB yet?

This is of course half truth, the truth part is that they didn't receive any loan from WB yet, because the loan was subject contractual obligations from the bangladeshi government in the form of land acquisition and other preliminary small scale civil construction and project assessment related work. WB is not going to hand out billions of dollars if they don't see you do some groundwork first.

The damn lie is the idea that you can only steal from WB, if they give you loan. The assumption that there is no other way of stealing. Of course the everyday joe is going to eat that sh*t up. As someone who has done and doing business in bangladesh in the industrial sector, has taken loans from government bank for working capital (for the amount of raw material and machineries we need they were the only options we had), I can tell you that to truly grasps how corrupted bangladeshi people are you have to do business in bangladesh. Right up to the PA's of the former President and the current Prime Minister, everyone is involved.

Paying bribe for contract is also a form of stealing and corruption because you are not giving the contract to the best bidder with lowest price and better experience or competence. You are giving the contract to the firm that can be expensive and not have the experience or competent enough to do it. The government doesn't have any money. It takes money from the people of bangladesh in the form of tax. So they are stealing from the people of bangladesh. I don't know the fine details of the contract with WB, but if WB were supposed to reimburse the government for that said contract after the loan was approved then its stealing from WB.

Even before WB gave out a single penny.

From my personal experience I can tell you, when I saw this, “4% Min;... 1% secretary”, thats exactly how they deal with bribe in bangladesh in the ministry/executive level. Its not a fixed amount, it a percentage of the total contract and its non-negotiable, paid in advance.

But of course the everyday joe don't understand that. If they can't stomach taking money for a measly 50 million contract, what are they going to do when billions of billions of dollars are involved?

So what the government does, instead of firing the people involved. It starts a nationalistic propaganda campaign that the WB is jealous of their success and trying to go after them so now they are going to self-finance this project. My question is if you had the capability to self finance this monstrosity why were you taking multi-decade high-interest loans in the first place?

All these just to save one guy.

Just because the other political parties are worse choice for government doesn't mean you have to bend over and take it from the current government.

Now thanks to shahbagh and anti-shahbagh, election year drama no one is talking about one of the biggest scandal of the present government term.
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  #216  
Old April 18, 2013, 01:24 AM
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^ I agree; the Government speaks of 'upholding the Rule of Law in Bangladesh' when investigating Grameen Bank and Dr. Yunus - something that I am in favor of and have expressed such views on this forum - but balks at doing something similar or as comprehensive with the Padma Bridge scandal. Where's the Independent Inquiry Commission for that? Why has there only been a superficial Anti-Corruption Commission investigation?

The double standard is nauseating. I believe in fighting for the (re) establishment of Rule of Law in this country - whether that involves investigating a Nobel Laureate or a Government Minister. No should be above the law.
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  #217  
Old April 18, 2013, 02:02 PM
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World bank banned SNC Lavalin today for next ten years. So SNC-Lavalin would not be able to take part in the bidding process for any projects financed by World Bank....

I wish the same was true for our ex-communication minster, he deserves to be in Prison for 10 years.... The support that Prime-Minster showed to this man, just proves how corrupt they all are.
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  #218  
Old April 18, 2013, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah
Just because the other political parties are worse choice for government doesn't mean you have to bend over and take it from the current government.
Not true in practice.

Exclude the everyday joes. Only consider folks who know what you just posted. Majority of them still voted in the last general election. There is no "other" option, short of outright revolution, and no group has demographic mandate to stage a successful revolution.

Things will remain as they have been. For the individual, no point fighting it. Just join it, and profit yourself at least.
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  #219  
Old April 18, 2013, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah
One thing about the whole padma bridge scandal and how the government tried to cover it up by saying that how can you steal (or be charged for corruption) when we didn't even receive any loan from WB yet?

This is of course half truth, the truth part is that they didn't receive any loan from WB yet, because the loan was subject contractual obligations from the bangladeshi government in the form of land acquisition and other preliminary small scale civil construction and project assessment related work. WB is not going to hand out billions of dollars if they don't see you do some groundwork first.

The damn lie is the idea that you can only steal from WB, if they give you loan. The assumption that there is no other way of stealing. Of course the everyday joe is going to eat that sh*t up. As someone who has done and doing business in bangladesh in the industrial sector, has taken loans from government bank for working capital (for the amount of raw material and machineries we need they were the only options we had), I can tell you that to truly grasps how corrupted bangladeshi people are you have to do business in bangladesh. Right up to the PA's of the former President and the current Prime Minister, everyone is involved.

Paying bribe for contract is also a form of stealing and corruption because you are not giving the contract to the best bidder with lowest price and better experience or competence. You are giving the contract to the firm that can be expensive and not have the experience or competent enough to do it. The government doesn't have any money. It takes money from the people of bangladesh in the form of tax. So they are stealing from the people of bangladesh. I don't know the fine details of the contract with WB, but if WB were supposed to reimburse the government for that said contract after the loan was approved then its stealing from WB.

Even before WB gave out a single penny.

From my personal experience I can tell you, when I saw this, “4% Min;... 1% secretary”, thats exactly how they deal with bribe in bangladesh in the ministry/executive level. Its not a fixed amount, it a percentage of the total contract and its non-negotiable, paid in advance.

But of course the everyday joe don't understand that. If they can't stomach taking money for a measly 50 million contract, what are they going to do when billions of billions of dollars are involved?

So what the government does, instead of firing the people involved. It starts a nationalistic propaganda campaign that the WB is jealous of their success and trying to go after them so now they are going to self-finance this project. My question is if you had the capability to self finance this monstrosity why were you taking multi-decade high-interest loans in the first place?

All these just to save one guy.

Just because the other political parties are worse choice for government doesn't mean you have to bend over and take it from the current government.

Now thanks to shahbagh and anti-shahbagh, election year drama no one is talking about one of the biggest scandal of the present government term.
Very well said. Agree 100%

There are those, who was supporting Hasina on Padda bridge, forgetting their lungis and when the entire thing is Fxxed up, then you see them joining the neutral tone by customers token anti Awami comment.

They will keep doing the same with Shahbag, with Younus, with Transit, With india Policy, With Freedom of Press, With Ellection, with every Awami issue...Dirty politics. BNP is equally financially corrupted like BAL, but at least you don't see these kind of political chaalbazi to make permanent damage to the nation and it's democratic institutions.

We don't need to asses anyone, let the people do through a free and fair election under neutral body... NON AWAMI ... These fascists are ruining the social & religious harmony in the nation and helping Islamic extremists, by threatening their right to exist.
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  #220  
Old April 18, 2013, 05:32 PM
HereWeGo HereWeGo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BANFAN
Very well said. Agree 100%

There are those, who was supporting Hasina on Padda bridge, forgetting their lungis and when the entire thing is Fxxed up, then you see them joining the neutral tone by customers token anti Awami comment.

They will keep doing the same with Shahbag, with Younus, with Transit, With india Policy, With Freedom of Press, With Ellection, with every Awami issue...Dirty politics. BNP is equally financially corrupted like BAL, but at least you don't see these kind of political chaalbazi to make permanent damage to the nation and it's democratic institutions.

We don't need to asses anyone, let the people do through a free and fair election under neutral body... NON AWAMI ... These fascists are ruining the social & religious harmony in the nation and helping Islamic extremists, by threatening their right to exist.
bolded part

Mmmm, these extremist dont have the right to exist.... They pose a threat to the nation and the society and a threat to religious harmony.... Punishing the extremists is the only way to bring religious harmony.....

atleast now I know the bnp way of thinking...... How do u sell such an idea

"Talibanize the country in order to bring religious harmony" - you deserve a nobel peace prize for this...
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  #221  
Old April 18, 2013, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Navo
^ I agree; the Government speaks of 'upholding the Rule of Law in Bangladesh' when investigating Grameen Bank and Dr. Yunus - something that I am in favor of and have expressed such views on this forum - but balks at doing something similar or as comprehensive with the Padma Bridge scandal. Where's the Independent Inquiry Commission for that? Why has there only been a superficial Anti-Corruption Commission investigation?

The double standard is nauseating. I believe in fighting for the (re) establishment of Rule of Law in this country - whether that involves investigating a Nobel Laureate or a Government Minister. No should be above the law.
Navo bhai, agree with you about establishment of rule law. However, talking about the investigation on Yunus and Padma bridge corruption in the same sentence is somewhat unfair, as the offenses are not comparable. I understand that every article of law are equally important, but in real life some ground rules are implemented more vigorously than others, shouldn't law enforcement be approached in a similar manner?
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  #222  
Old April 19, 2013, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HereWeGo
bolded part

Mmmm, these extremist dont have the right to exist.... They pose a threat to the nation and the society and a threat to religious harmony.... Punishing the extremists is the only way to bring religious harmony.....

atleast now I know the bnp way of thinking...... How do u sell such an idea

"Talibanize the country in order to bring religious harmony" - you deserve a nobel peace prize for this...
Unbolded Part

Correct, Sheikh Mujib told us BKSAL is the best democracy of the world, so none else has the right to exist...
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  #223  
Old April 19, 2013, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BANFAN
Unbolded Part

Correct, Sheikh Mujib told us BKSAL is the best democracy of the world, so none else has the right to exist...
And Sheikh Mujib was obviously wrong...

Lame counter logic uncle... People who target the minorities are criminals. Just because they conduct their criminal activity under the umbrella of a political party does not really make it a democratic practice... H-tahrir is a banned group, banned not because the rest of the world does not believe in democracy but because they propagate hate and terrorism...
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  #224  
Old April 20, 2013, 03:28 PM
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New information about Padma Corruption. Thanks to the anti-corruption case in Canada we will know all details at some point, even though these political leaders will escape punishment in Bangladesh.

Quote:
the World Bank’s Integrity Vice Presidency (INT) had the idea that five persons were in collusion with the Canadian company, SNC Lavalin, to split 10 percent of the supervision fee in exchange The INT handed over the second supplemental referral report to the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) in November last year.
The INT report showed then communication minister Syed Abul Hossain was to get 4 percent of the fees, former state minister for foreign affairs Abul Hossain Chowdhury Kaiser 2 percent, Mujibur Rahman Nixon (the prime minister’s nephew) 2 percent, Prime Minister’s Adviser Mashiur Rahman 1 percent and Bridges Division Secretary Mosharraf Hossain Bhuiyan 1 percent.
But now the World Bank is in possession of documents that show the deal actually included the particular person.
On top of all the five people mentioned there is another mysterious person. I truly thought this type of corruption was the worst during the last BNP rule, but it seems AL also wants to beat BNP when it comes to corruption.
Source: http://www.thedailystar.net/beta2/ne...here-2pc-more/
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Last edited by cricket_pagol; April 20, 2013 at 08:51 PM..
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  #225  
Old April 20, 2013, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cricket_pagol
Navo bhai, agree with you about establishment of rule law. However, talking about the investigation on Yunus and Padma bridge corruption in the same sentence is somewhat unfair, as the offenses are not comparable. I understand that every article of law are equally important, but in real life some ground rules are implemented more vigorously than others, shouldn't law enforcement be approached in a similar manner?
And that's (partly) my point! The State has set double standards when investigating those charged with serious - albeit very different - offences.

The reason why I put the Dr. Yunus issue and the Padma Bridge scandal in the same sentence is that I firmly believe in the maxim: "be you ever so high, the law is above you." Whether you're a celebrated global personality or part of the inner coterie of the incumbent government and whatever you're charged with, you're still subject to the law.
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