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  #1  
Old August 20, 2018, 05:25 AM
adamnsu adamnsu is offline
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Default Hajj and Eid al-Adha (Qurbani) 2018

Salam all.

My brother in law and his wife are performing Hajj. May all have a safe and accepted Hajj InshahAllah.

I heard a comparatively low turn out this year compared to the past few years.

My Father has bought a bull and a goat, the latter fully for his grandson. I miss Qurbani Eid in Bangladesh.
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  #2  
Old August 20, 2018, 10:29 AM
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Low turnout? May be, many Bangladeshis (and others) for one reason or another couldn't make the trip/journey. Very hot in Saudi Arabia. Fear of retaliation by the Yemenis, Al Qaeda, ISIL etc. My sister is there. Al Hamdulillah. May Allah accept her and everyone's Hajj.

+++
At any rate, Eid Mubarak to all. This is very special event and a reminder for us. Sacrificing (not only the animals) time and money for the sake of our Creator UNCONDITIONALLY. Understanding the examples of Sacrifices of Ibrahim (A), Ismael (A), and Hajer (R' anha).

When a command comes from Allah Subhana watala, we are not to question. That is the lesson. In the Quran, how many commands have come for us? Are we executing these commands properly? Starting with Prayers. A person praying without knowing what he is praying/saying and a person praying with knowing; can they be the same? What do we need to do?
May Allah Subhana watala give us the patience to be steadfast on his command and execute them starting with our selves. May we have the knowledge to do the good and stay away from evil.
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  #3  
Old August 20, 2018, 11:31 AM
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Total hujjaj this year was about 1.9 million. Less than 2 million.

The most number was hujjaj was on year 2011 (1433) when I performed hajj. That year it was 3.3 million. It was very tough. After performing the tawaf of hajj on eid day, which had took more than four hours for me on the roof of the haram, I had no energy to even pray the two rakats of tawaf.

Plus after stoning in jamaraat on the eid day, we got lost from our tour leader. From there, we had no gps nothing - no taxi - had to walk many kilometers to find our way to our hotel in aziziyah.

Every hajj is a story and the story never gets old.
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  #4  
Old August 20, 2018, 11:44 AM
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Eid Mubarak to all.

though i like meat. it is hard for me to see all the animals get slaughtered and the open celebration of human cruelty during eid ul adha.

But i guess that's evolution and that's the food chain meant to be.
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  #5  
Old August 20, 2018, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iDumb
Eid Mubarak to all.

though i like meat. it is hard for me to see all the animals get slaughtered and the open celebration of human cruelty during eid ul adha.

But i guess that's evolution and that's the food chain meant to be.
I don't understand "celebration of human cruelty during eid ul Adha". What is it and who does it?

Any type of cruelty shouldn't be celebrated.
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  #6  
Old August 20, 2018, 12:21 PM
tonmoy.dhaka tonmoy.dhaka is offline
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It is sacrifice and not celebration from my limited understanding.

Given that I am NOT at all religious so may I dare ask why cannot we question God?
I find the story behind the event an extremely cruel joke!! I know a lot of people explains it as a mercy from God but I fail to accept that explanation.

Anyways Eid Mubarak...
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  #7  
Old August 20, 2018, 01:00 PM
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It is hypocritical to bring the topic of cruelty on the occasion of Eid Al-Adha.

Aside from Muslims, there are 5.6 billion people on this earth. Those people are always eating all types of meat and fish. And I am sure you cannot eat any meat or fish without killing them first. And yet rarely I hear about animal cruelty.

But when a Muslim wants to carry out an annual religious ritual by sacrificing an animal, some start screaming about animal cruelty. And some ignorant Muslims join them.

Before Tonmoy and idumb scream animal cruelty, I challenge them first to stop eating any fish or meat or anything that requires taking life and become complete vegan. Otherwise, your barking about animal cruelty say nothing but expose the hypocrisy of your own self.

When we slaughter an animal for qurbani, at least we get close to the animal, get intimately involved in the process of taking a life (which is never easy), and thank Allah for blessing us with the provision of meat, which comes through taking a life, a fact that we seldom remember while eating. But during qurbani, we remember it, and become grateful to Allah for his blessing.

On the other hand, people like Tonmoy and iDubm, who I am sure never slaughtered an animal, happily sit at McDonald and like, almost never think that those steaks and burgers came though sacrificing animals lives, but never forget to guilt trap and shame induce Muslims on the occasion of Eid Al Adha, with the shame grenade of animal cruelty. Give me a break.
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  #8  
Old August 20, 2018, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonmoy.dhaka
...
Given that I am NOT at all religious so may I dare ask why cannot we question God?

Anyways Eid Mubarak...
You can question God any time you wish as much as you want. To follow or not to follow a command is totally up to you. God is Just. He will reward you according to your deeds. Anything you do or not do, doesn't benefit or harm God. It only will have a consequence on your soul, if you believe in the judgment day. And if you don't believe in the Judgment day, you are free my Man. He has given you the power to choose whatever you wish to do. I, or anyone who walked in this earth can NOT change you.
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  #9  
Old August 20, 2018, 02:49 PM
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Eid Mubarak to everyone. May Allah grant peace to this world.
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  #10  
Old August 20, 2018, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToBeFair
It is hypocritical to bring the topic of cruelty on the occasion of Eid Al-Adha.
Yes you are right.

Quote:
And some ignorant Muslims join them. Before idumb scream animal cruelty, .
I understand your reaction to my post in the context. Before I go further I should mention, I am a practicing Muslim but not a good one. And similarly like you, I am very well aware of intentional Islamophobic posts by anyone... ("muslim", or not)

My intentions for my post (though you are right still probably shouldn't belong there) is to have a maybe a bit of open discussion....

I started saying I love meat. I don't preoccupy myself with animal rights or animal treatment when sitting in Mcdonalds or buying meat from grocery store. But I have come to embrace a form of civilized consumption where I buy meat without the sight of how it was prepared. I am the animal from higher food chain - and I guess that's my right.

But during Eid - videos, pictures, dressing up animals and finally slaughtering cows in open fields in front of everyone just comes to limelight.. and briefly just hits a bit of my conscience and I am become a bit more aware....

Though it is not practiced, there are more less cruel way of killing something. For example, before slaughtering, an animal can be given strong dose of sedatives and pain medications so they do not feel what's coming to them. you can argue the cost, logistics, health effects on the consumer or a halality of the process but that's how I feel.

But it is what it is. We are the top of the food chain. this is how the world was meant to be.


Eid mubarak and hope you guys enjoy preparing and eating all the delicious food.
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  #11  
Old August 20, 2018, 07:27 PM
tonmoy.dhaka tonmoy.dhaka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
You can question God any time you wish as much as you want. To follow or not to follow a command is totally up to you. God is Just. He will reward you according to your deeds. Anything you do or not do, doesn't benefit or harm God. It only will have a consequence on your soul, if you believe in the judgment day. And if you don't believe in the Judgment day, you are free my Man. He has given you the power to choose whatever you wish to do. I, or anyone who walked in this earth can NOT change you.
He has given me the power to choose? Are u sure?
Also would love to get your views on the story behind the Sacrifice...
Do u think it is immense mercy of God or a cruel joke played by God?
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  #12  
Old August 20, 2018, 07:29 PM
tonmoy.dhaka tonmoy.dhaka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToBeFair

Before Tonmoy and idumb scream animal cruelty.
I am a meat eater and never pretend otherwise.. neither did I mention anything about animal cruelty...
Read before making stupid comments..
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  #13  
Old August 20, 2018, 07:49 PM
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Perhaps some things from this discussion should be discussed in another topic.

Eid Mubarak to all.
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  #14  
Old August 20, 2018, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonmoy.dhaka
Read before making stupid comments..
He did not attack you. Stop being aggresive for no reason. We all know your comfort zone and your choice thread participation.

This is a celebratory EID thread. Keep out if you can't be nice. He put your name there because of the way you replied.

I am gonna report all non related eid/qurbani/hajj posts in this thread subsequently to the mods here.
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  #15  
Old August 20, 2018, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tausif
Perhaps some things from this discussion should be discussed in another topic.

Eid Mubarak to all.
I agree. thank you.

Eid mubarak to all.
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  #16  
Old August 20, 2018, 10:29 PM
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Eid Mubarak fellas.
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  #17  
Old August 20, 2018, 11:41 PM
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  #18  
Old August 21, 2018, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iDumb
Yes you are right.



I understand your reaction to my post in the context. Before I go further I should mention, I am a practicing Muslim but not a good one. And similarly like you, I am very well aware of intentional Islamophobic posts by anyone... ("muslim", or not)

My intentions for my post (though you are right still probably shouldn't belong there) is to have a maybe a bit of open discussion....

I started saying I love meat. I don't preoccupy myself with animal rights or animal treatment when sitting in Mcdonalds or buying meat from grocery store. But I have come to embrace a form of civilized consumption where I buy meat without the sight of how it was prepared. I am the animal from higher food chain - and I guess that's my right.

But during Eid - videos, pictures, dressing up animals and finally slaughtering cows in open fields in front of everyone just comes to limelight.. and briefly just hits a bit of my conscience and I am become a bit more aware....

Though it is not practiced, there are more less cruel way of killing something. For example, before slaughtering, an animal can be given strong dose of sedatives and pain medications so they do not feel what's coming to them. you can argue the cost, logistics, health effects on the consumer or a halality of the process but that's how I feel.

But it is what it is. We are the top of the food chain. this is how the world was meant to be.


Eid mubarak and hope you guys enjoy preparing and eating all the delicious food.
Regarding civilized consumption, it is only from our limited perception and optics we are concluding that a certain form of killing an animal is more humane. As for research, research can be presented supporting different methods. Additionally, research is not always unbiased. Also the experience of death itself is subjective. Even if research says that method A is more humane than method B, a sheep may find method B to be easier for dying. Unless you experience different processes of dying, no one can actually conclude for you what is more humane of dying. Optics and perception are irrelevant.

Therefore, since we believe that God is the Most Merciful, and since we believe that His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) was sent as nothing but as mercy for the whole universe, we follow his method of execution. This might not create the greatest of optics, but we rely on what we believe as divine revelation, not optics, as objective proof.
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  #19  
Old August 21, 2018, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToBeFair
Therefore, since we believe that God is the Most Merciful...
Tobefair, your first post on hypocrisy whether your meant it or not, had some merit. your last post has a lot to be desired and is a very poor one objectively.

Respond in a logical sceintific way that you are talking to some one non religious...

My concern for the animals is not a religious one but a humane one. In united states there are laws for humane act of slaughtering and they somewhat give leneincy for Islam and Judaic practice.

But what about all those sacrifice around the world. In bangladesh I have seen with my own eyes... 10 ppl holding down a cow.. and half way to slaughter, the cow was able to over power all and run away with half of its throat cut profusely bleeding.. there is something extraordinarily wrong with this picture.... (u dismiss it calling it optics ??)

Sacrifice, slaughter is all fine.. but there are PROVEN methods on what reduces pain and what supresses brain function. Receptor in brain work similarly it;s all science brohter... so your argument of "you don't know the perspective from goat" is a very naaive one.

Again put religion aside.. set aside your thoughts on God knows best and that's how he want it to be .. and answer on your own...Is there something wrong with 10 men holding down an animal and slaughter it without any form of brain stunting? You can argue sharp cutting of carotid is as effective as anything else for knocking something unconscious but personally i reserve my judgement on this and feel it can be controlled even more efficiently.
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Old August 21, 2018, 01:05 AM
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Also the argument is instant severance of the carotid artery stops blood flow to the brain rendering it unconscious which is in effect mean the animal doesn't feel anything.

But it all depends on who is performing this. Anatomy is different for each individual animal. Internal carotid artery is buried deep.. whose pathway is in certain way.

There is no gurantee and often times i am guess it's true for all those amateur BD slaughtering.. they are just going at the throat and eventually getting to the artery.

I don't buy for a second all the slaughter are painless. But what if I can medicate and sedate the animal. then i am 100% certain i can't mess it up. I hope you can see my argument.
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  #21  
Old August 21, 2018, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonmoy.dhaka
He has given me the power to choose? Are u sure?
Definitely God (from Islamic perspective) has given us the power to choose in some aspects. You can choose korbani mangsho or you may choose daal sabji for your lunch today. You have a choice. If you deny that you have a choice in this aspect, it will be like saying you do not exist.

However, our choice is not absolute and on many aspects we have no choice. You did not choose your gender, date of birth, race, ethnicity. You did not choose that you will have two hands. You did not choose that you will be a human. You will not choose your time of death either.

Having said so, we Muslims also believe that everything is predestined.

Now, the questions is, how do we reconcile the fact that we have choice while at the same time everything is predestined?

This is easy to comprehend whom God gives understanding. Since we do not know what has been decreed for us, we cannot use predestination to justify the choices or decisions we make in our life. Divine decree unfolds before us only after we make a choice or an event happens. Thus no one shall be able to use predestination as an excuse on the Day of Judgement.

If you are still not convinced, and argue that your belief and actions are not your choice but the result of God's predestination, than I dare you: jump from a building using the same logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonmoy.dhaka
Also would love to get your views on the story behind the Sacrifice...
Do u think it is immense mercy of God or a cruel joke played by God?
When it comes to the story of God commanding Abraham (peace be upon him), regular Muslims take the story on face value and celebrate how the Prophet (peace be upon him) celebrated Eid and performed rituals of Eid. This is a good sign, because God wants ease for us, and through obeying Him, we can easily enter Jannah, which is the ultimate goal. বিশ্বাসে মেলায় বস্তু, তর্কে বহুদূর।

However, if you want to become philosophical, asking whether the story is "immense mercy of God or a cruel joke played by God", then know that our scholars have already discussed this issue before.

The issue here is following:

Since God is all good by definition, He surely commands only good. Then how did He command Abraham to sacrifice his own son, which seems like an ignoble act? Doesn't such command contradict with the all good nature of God?

But then again, if you think deeply and generalize the whole situation, this is the question of evil. How can an all good God create evil and suffering in this world? How can an all good God create eternal sadistic punishment like Hell fire?

Now, we humans are not the first one to ask about the problem of evil. In fact, even before God created Adam, the angels asked God about it, but God did not explain His reasoning:

And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."[The Noble Quran 2:30]

Personally for me, existence of evil and suffering does not create any intellectual or emotional issue in ascertaining the existence of an all powerful and all merciful God. Personally for me, the proof of God's existence and proofs about the truthfulness of the Prophet-hood of Muhammad (peace be upom him) and veracity of Islam far outweigh whatever claims are thrown against. Does it mean I have a satisfactory explanation for the problem of evil? I don't and I have not read any.

I once had a similar discussion about the problem of evil in Facebook with someone, who tried to reconcile saying that there is no evil - evil is simply the absence of good. I disagreed with him. Good and evil are separate entity, both created by God, and only He knows the wisdom. I had written following reply to him:

Quote:
As Muslims, we believe that Allah is the Creator, and there is no other creator beside Him. He created everything, both good and evil, and there is no denying of this fact.

If a Muslim says that Allah did not create evil, or if he says that evil is not a separate entity, but merely the absence of good, he commits two mistakes. First, he denies the divinity of Allah, for a divine attribute of Allah is that only He can create, and second, he denies the reality that evil exists as a separate entity completely independent and opposite of good.

For example, as Muslim, we believe that Satan exists - we believe that he is a jinn and that he exists physically. Allah created him from smokeless fire. And the purpose of Satan is nothing but misleading human beings and taking them to the Hell Fire.

Can a Muslim say that Satan is simply the absence of good? The answer is NO. The correct answer is, Satan is an independent creation of Allah. Out of His infinite and complete knowledge, Allah knew even before creating Satan that he will mislead human beings, but for a wisdom that we cannot know or fully comprehend, Allah brought this evil entity (i.e., the Satan) into existence anyway.

Another example: Is death simply the absence of life? Death is absence of life, but death and life are separate entities as well as separate creations of Allah, as Allah has said:

[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving - [The Noble Quran 67:2]

Allah also said:

But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All [things] are from Allah ." So what is [the matter] with those people that they can hardly understand any statement? What comes to you of good is from Allah, but what comes to you of evil, [O man], is from yourself. And We have sent you, [O Muhammad], to the people as a messenger, and sufficient is Allah as Witness.[The Noble Quran 4:78-79]

This verse also says that both good and evil are from Allah - which means Allah created both of these entities. However, whereas good comes to us as part of Allah's blessing, evil befalls us for no other reason except as necessary consequences of the sins we commit.

We can therefore conclude that Muslims do not believe that evil is simply a matter of perception. It is NOT. Good and evil are two separate entities and they are both the creation of Allah. Evil exists in this world for many wisdoms, and only Allah knows the complete wisdom for the existence of evil.

Now, on the backdrop of this conclusion, the atheist may ask me, “God by definition has to be Good and the source of all Good. How can then God create evil entities?” Yes, we Muslims believe that God is All Good and the Source of all Good. To understand how an All-Good God can thereby create evil, we have to delve into the topic of relativism.

Suppose I see someone is being killed/executed. If I know nothing, why this person is being killed, as a random observer, the act of killing will seem inhumane and therefore evil to me. However, if I learn that the person being killed was a serial killer and a rapist murderer, the same act of killing this person will seem to be the most justified act and an act of goodness.

Therefore, the evil that exists in this world or in the next world, be it cancer, Satan, misery, Hell fire, death, and other forms of sufferings, from our viewpoint, they are evil. Are they also evil from the viewpoint of God? The answer is NO. For an All-Good God does not create absolute evil. Just like the execution of a rapist murderer seems perfectly rational and justified and not evil once we learn the background, God also knows in His infinite knowledge the perfect and complete wisdom behind the creation of all apparent evil entities, which makes bringing these apparent entities into existence completely justified.

PS. For a topic like this, which has deep theological and philosophical implications, it is not proper to share random facebook posts, which often disseminates misinformation and wrong understanding – therefore be careful. At the same time, nor this post of mine is sufficient in any way to learn or fully comprehend this matter.
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  #22  
Old August 21, 2018, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToBeFair

But when a Muslim wants to carry out an annual religious ritual by sacrificing an animal, some start screaming about animal cruelty. And some ignorant Muslims join them.

.
Being a vegan is actually good for the environment. People who eat red meat and dairy have the highest carbon footprint, and vegans have the lowest. In this day and age when climate change is the single biggest threat not only to humanity but to the entire biosphere, that is no small matter.

That being said, I love the taste of meat, and and slowly reducing my consumption but I can't quit totally. Nor do I think you should. Everyone should just eat less. And I can't cut out milk/cheese/chocolate/ice cream from my diet ever.

But the way some ignorant muslims treat animals is certainly of concern. In fact, it nullifies the sacrifice and even renders the meat un-halal IMO.

Have a look at this video on what zabiha/halal is really supposed to be and then see how many in Bangladesh practice it that way.

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  #23  
Old August 21, 2018, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by tonmoy.dhaka
Do u think it is immense mercy of God or a cruel joke played by God?
The prophets are revered because they were held to a higher standard. Noah was commanded to build an ark in the middle of the desert and face the ridicule of people for years. Some would consider that to be cruel.

Moses was commanded to return to face the most vile tyrant of human history, even though he was afraid Pharaoh would try to kill him. Some would consider that to be cruel.

Muhammad was commanded to watch his people patiently suffer taunts, and then torture (Bilal), economic boycott and even death (Nusaiba) and he wasn't yet allowed to defend the community. Some would consider that to be cruel.

Abraham and his son Ishmael were on a different spiritual plane. What you and I would perceive to be cruel would not be perceived as such by them. Ishmael himself urged his father to do as commanded and said he was of those who submit.

Perception of any feeling is subjective. The masochist doesn't feel pain when he's whipped. Neither does the devout feel hardship once they've reached a higher spiritual plane.

Because of that, to this day, more than a billion people commemorate Abraham and Ishmael thousands of years after their death whereas most people alive today will be forgotten as soon as we die and even the likes of Mother Theresea or Steve Jobs will be remembered in only a few passing comments.
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  #24  
Old August 21, 2018, 02:21 AM
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ToBeFair, I enjoyed reading your post. I agree with some of it, and some I don't, but I enjoyed it nonetheless.

Tonmoys question is an interesting one:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonmoy.dhaka
Do u think it is immense mercy of God or a cruel joke played by God?
This answer depends entirely on each of us as individuals. That in itself is the definition of belief. It's a lot like that "half glass of water" scenario - the optimist will see a glass half full, while the pessimist sees a glass half empty and perhaps a cruel joke.

And then there are those who will question whether the glass of water was even there in the first place. And if not, was this story just that - a story orally passed down for centuries and misconstrued over and over like a twisted game of Chinese whispers?

The answer is that no one knows. You believe what you want to believe. Because belief is a funny thing. It is the one thing that we can instantly change about our identity, but it is often the last thing people change.

The irony is that the same guy that believes unconditionally in the Almighty Allah and the Prophet (PBUH - as we are conditioned to write, as if not writing it would somehow mean we don't wish peace to be upon Him?), would have also believed unconditionally in Jesus Christ (Lord and Savior variety) - superficially swapping the name Ibrahim (must I again, ok i must...PBUH) for Abraham (sigh, PBUH), or even believing in Mother Laxmi (PBUher too) if he was simply born in a different household.

The same man who wouldn't allow a doctor to perform surgery on him using a 18th century medical journal, would happily allow a book written in the 7th century to dictate what he can/can't eat, when he must pray, etc. That is belief. Are they wrong? You really can't prove either way.

What I do know is that today is a fun day. It brings a lot of joy to billions of people across the world and that's not a bad thing. If this day means anything to you, then Eid Mubarak. If it doesn't, well have a happy normal Tuesday.
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Old August 21, 2018, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankees
ToBeFair, I enjoyed reading your post. I agree with some of it, and some I don't, but I enjoyed it nonetheless.

Tonmoys question is an interesting one:


This answer depends entirely on each of us as individuals. That in itself is the definition of belief. It's a lot like that "half glass of water" scenario - the optimist will see a glass half full, while the pessimist sees a glass half empty and perhaps a cruel joke.

And then there are those who will question whether the glass of water was even there in the first place. And if not, was this story just that - a story orally passed down for centuries and misconstrued over and over like a twisted game of Chinese whispers?

The answer is that no one knows. You believe what you want to believe. Because belief is a funny thing. It is the one thing that we can instantly change about our identity, but it is often the last thing people change.

The irony is that the same guy that believes unconditionally in the Almighty Allah and the Prophet (PBUH - as we are conditioned to write, as if not writing it would somehow mean we don't wish peace to be upon Him?), would have also believed unconditionally in Jesus Christ (Lord and Savior variety) - superficially swapping the name Ibrahim (must I again, ok i must...PBUH) for Abraham (sigh, PBUH), or even believing in Mother Laxmi (PBUher too) if he was simply born in a different household.

The same man who wouldn't allow a doctor to perform surgery on him using a 18th century medical journal, would happily allow a book written in the 7th century to dictate what he can/can't eat, when he must pray, etc. That is belief. Are they wrong? You really can't prove either way.

What I do know is that today is a fun day. It brings a lot of joy to billions of people across the world and that's not a bad thing. If this day means anything to you, then Eid Mubarak. If it doesn't, well have a happy normal Tuesday.
great post
Eid Mubarak and a normal jhogra free tuesday to you!
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