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  #1  
Old May 8, 2011, 07:25 AM
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Default Stories of Muslim Reverts

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  #2  
Old May 8, 2011, 07:27 AM
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  #3  
Old May 8, 2011, 09:31 AM
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anybody else read the title as "story of Muslim Perverts"? For a second, I thought I would be reading about Tonoy.
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  #4  
Old May 8, 2011, 10:23 AM
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ShubhanaAllah !! Great share BCF !!! Nice to know he's an Aussie bloke
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  #5  
Old May 8, 2011, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iDumb
anybody else read the title as "story of Muslim Perverts"? For a second, I thought I would be reading about Tonoy.
ahahah... i thought it said perverts too...
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  #6  
Old May 8, 2011, 04:09 PM
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gold
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  #7  
Old May 8, 2011, 05:23 PM
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Thanx for the video..
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  #8  
Old May 8, 2011, 07:04 PM
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That was a wonderful story.
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  #9  
Old May 9, 2011, 10:45 AM
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ShubhanaAllah... wonderful to hear/listen.
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3. Rubel Hossain: Corey J A bowled; BB McCullum caught; JDS Neesham caught
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  #10  
Old May 9, 2011, 04:31 PM
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Whats the difference between a "convert" and a "revert" in religious context?
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  #11  
Old May 9, 2011, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashfaq
Whats the difference between a "convert" and a "revert" in religious context?
It should have read as 'convert'. Revert would indicate 'born again' in the Christian context. Here, revert would refer to an individual originally Muslim, lapsed for a while and finally deciding to 'revert' back to being a Muslim.

This is not a thread I wish to hijack and might I request those who read 'revert' as 'pervert' to find their laughs elsewhere? Some members of this forum are rather more traditionalist and vocal in their pursuit of religion. It is no sweat of my back nor those Muslims who prefer not to be so vocal. If you don't like this thread or other threads glorifying Islam why not ignore them rather than making a banal comment? Why can't we respect each other a little more?
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  #12  
Old May 9, 2011, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck
This is not a thread I wish to hijack
yet you did.

Quote:
might I request those who read 'revert' as 'pervert' to find their laughs elsewhere?
why? Seeing "pervert" in place of "revert" says more about us than the thread unless there are actually more Muslim perverts than reverts, then it makes us visionaries.

Quote:
Some members of this forum are rather more traditionalist and vocal in their pursuit of religion.
Good and some members this forum are more progressive and vocal in making light of things.

Quote:
If you don't like this thread or other threads glorifying Islam why not ignore them rather than making a banal comment?
Who said we didn't like this thread? But I liked my joke better. If you are offended by it, too bad - you need to change instead of trying to change me. I am not a traditionalist.

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Why can't we respect each other a little more?
who was disrespected in this thread?
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  #13  
Old May 9, 2011, 09:16 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qofGS...layer_embedded

after 7:45.
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  #14  
Old May 10, 2011, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck
It should have read as 'convert'. Revert would indicate 'born again' in the Christian context. Here, revert would refer to an individual originally Muslim, lapsed for a while and finally deciding to 'revert' back to being a Muslim.
not necessarily. in Islam we believe every child is born with 'fitra' or natural disposition to God. but eventually because of up bringing in non-muslim family and society, children are taught to believe in false god(s)/or no belief in God at all. in that sense, many who become Muslim say that they have reverted back to their original belief.
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  #15  
Old May 10, 2011, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iDumb
yet you did.


why? Seeing "pervert" in place of "revert" says more about us than the thread unless there are actually more Muslim perverts than reverts, then it makes us visionaries.


Good and some members this forum are more progressive and vocal in making light of things.


Who said we didn't like this thread? But I liked my joke better. If you are offended by it, too bad - you need to change instead of trying to change me. I am not a traditionalist.


who was disrespected in this thread?
If you liked the spirit of this thread you wouldn't have made your flippant and immature comment about perversion.

You are all about flippancy and irreverence without any concept of respect for alternative perspectives. While your imbecile humour might amuse yourself but it is disrespectful to the serious tone of the thread implied by the original poster. This thread was an attempted celebration of piety through Islam. You might 'like your joke better' but it disrespects, lowers the tone and subverts the original thread. You can express your impious and for all I care, moronic views in your own irreligious thread, however, here, you are disrespecting the original poster and his views.

You bring in a new level of banality and flippancy which has been tolerated for far too long in this forum. I believe that you were known as Orpheus before and carried the very same sarcastic tone, however, I fear that you'd see this more as an accolade than a critique.

The essence of Bengali culture lay in toleration, moderation and respect for elders.
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  #16  
Old May 10, 2011, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakib
not necessarily. in Islam we believe every child is born with 'fitra' or natural disposition to God. but eventually because of up bringing in non-muslim family and society, children are taught to believe in false god(s)/or no belief in God at all. in that sense, many who become Muslim say that they have reverted back to their original belief.
Sakib, you have clarified the concept of reversion here. Following your assertion, it would suggest that a greater effort is required for the convert, in your terms, the revert to come back to Islam. Does that mean this 'revert' is more highly prized by the creator than the individual who had been born within Islam and had not strayed, perhaps like yourself?
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  #17  
Old May 10, 2011, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck
. You might 'like your joke better' but it disrespects, lowers the tone and subverts the original thread. You can express your impious and for all I care, moronic views in your own irreligious thread, however, here, you are disrespecting the original poster and his views.
Do you think before you write or you just write where ever you finger takes you (and I don't wanna know where your finger takes you). Whose views are you talking about? The original poster posted a YOUTUBE video without writing a single text in the body. Which member's views am I disrespecting? You know there is a thread called the "video thread" for youtube clips like this. Not every video you watch on youtube has to be a thread on its own UNLESS you can contribute your own thoughts also - which the original poster failed to do. And here you are talking all nonsense about traditionalist, alternate perspective, views. What's wrong with you? Your cat isn't giving you enough love?

Quote:
You bring in a new level of banality and flippancy which has been tolerated for far too long in this forum.
Some people enjoy it. But If you feel like this way, next time take your own advice, ignore them and move on. And stop using the word "banal" in every post of yours, it makes you sound like a pervert.

Quote:
The essence of Bengali culture lay in toleration, moderation and respect for elders.
That is your definition on what the essence of Bengali culture is. To me, essence of bengali culture is eating shorishar ilish, wearing lungi and employing pretty kajer buas because they are so low priced that it's criminal. You see Mr. Traditionalist, you have the tendency to define things for yourself and expect others to adhere to it. That's not gonna happen here or anywhere.
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  #18  
Old May 10, 2011, 07:56 AM
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Default Ahl al-Fatrah

GOD suggests we be tolerant and rational when it comes to the "other". He also suggests we take the high road, seek common ground, celebrate diversity and vie in righteous deeds.

Quote:
"And do not curse those who call on other than GOD, lest they blaspheme and curse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done." (Qur'an 6:108)

"O you who believe, if a wicked person brings any news to you, you shall first investigate, lest you commit injustice towards some people, out of ignorance, then become sorry and remorseful for what you have done." (Qur'an 49:6)

"O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful." (Qur'an 49:12)

"O people, We created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant." (Qur'an 49:13)
Why? Because GOD has graced each and every one of us, regardless of labels, with fitrah:

Quote:
Fitra, or fitrah (Ar. فطرة), is an Arabic word meaning ‘disposition’, ‘nature’, ‘constitution’, or ‘instinct’. In a mystical context, it can connote intuition or insight. It is similar to the Calvinist term "Sensus Divinitatis".

According to Islamic theology, human beings are born with an innate inclination of tawhid (Oneness), which is encapsulated in the fitra along with compassion, intelligence, ihsan and all other attributes that embody what it is to be human. It is for this reason that some Muslims prefer to refer to those who embrace Islam as reverts rather than converts, as it is believed they are returning to a perceived pure state.

Quote:
Allah's Apostle said, "No child is born except on Al-fitra and then his parents make him Jewish, Christian or Magian (Zoroastrian), as an animal produces a perfect young animal: do you see any part of its body amputated?"

- Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 441
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People adhering to fitrah are the Ahl al-Fatrah:

Quote:
In Islamic theology, the term Ahl al-Fatrah (Arabic: أهل الفترة‎, ahlu-l-fatratu) refers to everyone whom the da‘wah (message of Islam) has not reached in an uncorrupted manner: the people who live in ignorance of the teachings of Islam, either in geographical isolation, or in times predating Muhammad. The intended meaning is that people living at a time of an interval between two prophets so that they are never exposed to divine revelation.

There is disagreement among Muslim scholars regarding those who had no access to the call of any prophet during their lifetime. Some Muslim scholars maintain that this group of people should have pondered over God's Creation till they perceive the truth. If they managed to reach the truth by their deep thinking, then they will be spared God's Punishment, but not otherwise.

Other Muslim scholars state that people are to adhere to religious ordinances and to proclaim faith only if God sends them a divine legislation through a prophet. This group backs their view by citing the following verse:

We never punish until We have sent a messenger. (Al-Isra 15)

Qur'anic verse,

there is not a nation but a warner hath passed among them. (Fatir 24)

is cited to the effect that a messenger was, indeed, sent to every people. But by the Islamic concept of corruption of divine revelation over time (tahrif), there may still be "people of the interval" who have access only to such corrupted revelations

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The "corrupted" also include Muslims who have inadvertently or deliberately convoluted and misused the revelation, often driven by the ego and its pathology to achieve a social or political outcome. Submission to one's ego is the worst form of idolatry.

This concept of "innate" or "natural" religion has Abrahamic roots. One of my teachers, Rabbi Ben Abrahamson, may GOD continue to grace him with His infinite blessings, is a Hareidi Chassidic scholar of the highest order. He is Consultant, Jerusalem Rabbinical Court and Director, Committee for Historical Research in Islam and Judaism. It is my great honor to introduce this great man to my friends here on BC. May his light and knowledge benefit everyone as it continues to benefit me and countless others.

Here's what he said:

Quote:
Both Islam and Judaism agree that there is only one acceptable deen (religion) for all mankind. In Hebrew we have called it yireh shamayim (God fearers, submitters), bnei noah. In Aramaic we called it salamai (the complete ones). In Arabic you call it islam.

Both Islam and Judaism agree that Allah SWT has revealed multiple Shari'ahs (covenants) to groups of people over time. Allah SWT revealed different sets of laws for an Ummah to serve Him in the most perfect way.

Where we might differ with some Muslims is that we believe that these Shari'ahs are still active and valid for their Ummah. This is supported by the Qu'ran: "And why do they come to you for a decision while they have the Torah, in which is the Decision of Allah SWT... " (Ma'minim 5.43) and the ahaddith explicitly say that the Mahdi will judge the Jews by the shari'ah of the Torah, Muslims by the shari'ah of the Qur'an etc. Many muslims do not know this. Some draw from Christian theology that the Torah has been abrogated and replaced, but this is not supported by the Qur'an or ahaddith.

"Those who believe, those who are Jews, and the Christians and Sabaeans, all who believe in Allah SWT and the Last Day and act rightly, will have their reward with their Lord. They will feel no fear and will know no sorrow." (Surat Al-Baqara 62)

Rabbi Benamozegh - my teacher - develops the concept of "covenant". He explains that it is like groups of craftsman who gather to build a great palace for a king. Each group thinks that it is the best and most correct, and it is indeed so, because each group is the best and most perfect in its trade. The carpenters are best at what they do. The bricklayers are the best at what they do. The electricians are the best at what they do. What one group teaches as the best way for it to contribute to building the palace, would not be correct for another group. Mixing of talents and techniques would between the groups would reduce the speciality and diversity needed to create the most perfect palace. The diet, clothing and training of each group must necessarily be different. The goal of all of them is the same, and they should compete as if in a race.

Historically, Jews know that for centuries, hundreds of thousands of righteous non-Jews would worship together with the Jews in Jerusalem. The Temple was called by the Prophet "a House of Prayer for All Nations". After the destruction of the the Temple by the Romans, the nation was crushed, the children of Israel fled, and pilgrimages to Jerusalem were forbidden.

Many righteous non-Jews lived in what is now Jordan and Arabia . There was an attempt to rebuild a nation of believers there. However the leadership tried to impose the full the Shari'ah of Moses (pbuh) on the righteous non-Jews, instead of the basic faith of Islam (Bnei Noah). It was supposed to be the "Nation of the LORD" yh-vh-iliyyah, but instead the overburdening and inappropriate application of Torah led to a "nation of ignorance" yahiliyyah.

"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them . So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper" (Surat Al-A'raf 157)

Due to war between Rome and Persia, both the Jews and Christians were trying to claim "Arabia" for their own, imposing upon them their version of the Shari'ah of Musa (pbuh) or the Shari'ah of Isa (pbuh) upon an Ummah to which it did not belong. Rabbi Benamozegh taught that the Prophet (pbuh) was sent by Allah SWT to relieve the burden of the nation. To restore the older, original covenant with mankind, and to make clear the path for his Ummah to follow.

In this context we can understand the verses:

And the Jews [who wished to control Arabia] say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians [who wished to control Arabia] say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in how they are different. (Surat Al-Baqara 113)

And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper. (Surat Al-Baqara 120)

Judaism agrees with this. The great scholar Maimonides taught that Islam is a return to the monotheism of Abraham. God sent [Qur'anic] Islam to help make straight the path for the King Messiah (Mahdi) and to prepare the whole world to serve the God together. (Teshuvot ha-Rambam 2, no. 293)

In general the ahadith clearly indicate the Prophet (pbuh) opposed the mixing of the Mosaic Shari'ah with the Quranic Shari'ah. Judaism also teaches this.

"Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Jews and the Christians do not dye (their grey hair), so you shall do the opposite of what they do." (Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 668)

However, this doesn't mean that one Shari'ah is better or worse than another. It means that each Shari'ah is given to an Ummah.

"From amongst all those ummahs you are among the ummah that has been allotted to me and from amongst all the prophets I am the prophet who hath been assigned to you." (Musnad Ahmad)

Allah SWT could have made mankind one Ummah, with one Shari'ah. But we know that each Ummah has been given its own Shari'ah and that we are to compete, as if in a race, for good deeds and virtue.

"To each among you have we prescribed a Shariah (law) and Minhaj (custom). If Allah had so willed, He could have made you a single Ummah (faith community), but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth about the matters in which you are different"; (Al Maeda 48)
He also said:

Quote:
There is a political side to all the events that are happening in the world today. And there is also another side, and that is the teachings that we have been taught from the time we were very young as children growing up in Jewish homes, how to relate to non-Jews, and how to relate to believers, and how to relate to Bnai Noah. I have some quotes here which are things that we have learnt. One is that Maimonides has taught that Islam, the religion of Islam, is a return to the monotheism of Abraham. (Teshuvot ha-Rambam 2, no. 293)

We are taught that the purpose of Islam is to make straight the path to the Messiah to come and to help prepare the whole world to serve Hashem together. As it is said in the book of the Prophet Zephania that when the Messiah comes, Hashem will make the speech of all the people into a pure speech, and all of them will come and call the name of Hashem and serve Him with one accord.(Zephaniah 3:9)

Some people try to say that there are things that are incorrect in Islam, that for instance in the Hajj, the throwing of the stones , they say they are some remnants of some pagan origin. But we are taught that there isn't a Muslim in the world who performs any aspect of the Hajj for any wrong reason, not in word and not in thought. But that their hearts are completely surrendered to Heaven. (Teshuvot ha-Rambam, no. 448)

So the devout Jews are taught to have the greatest respect for the devout among the Muslims, what we call the followers of the teachings of B'nai Noah. And based on the foundations of this respect, we sincerely desire to share our faith and our prayers and work together for the common good with all our Muslim neighbors in Turkey and the entire Middle East.
GOD says:

Quote:
"He has decreed for you the same system He ordained for Noah, and what We inspired to you, and what We ordained for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: You shall uphold this system, and do not divide in it. Intolerable for the polytheists is what you invite them towards. God chooses for Himself whoever He wills; He guides to Himself those who repent." - (Qur'an 42:13)
The covenant with Noah (PBUH) means the adherence to 7 laws. They are:

1. Prohibition of idolatry. This includes ego-centrism.

2. Prohibition of murder.

3. Prohibition of theft.

4. Prohibition of sexual immorality. This concerns incest and sexual relations driven purely by selfish lust, rather than holistic tranquility in another.

5. Prohibition of blasphemy. This includes speaking in GOD's name or assuming that He needs us to do his bidding.

6. Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.

7. Establishment of just laws. This means just and equal treatment under the law for everyone. The Prophet's (PBUH) Medina Declaration, Cyrus the Great's Declaration of Rights, Jefferson's Bill of Rights and now the Universal Declaration of Human Rights are good examples of the endeavor to establish such laws.

Peace & GOD bless~
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Last edited by Sohel; May 10, 2011 at 08:31 AM..
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  #19  
Old May 10, 2011, 08:01 AM
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BanCricFan BanCricFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakib
not necessarily. in Islam we believe every child is born with 'fitra' or natural disposition to God. but eventually because of up bringing in non-muslim family and society, children are taught to believe in false god(s)/or no belief in God at all. in that sense, many who become Muslim say that they have reverted back to their original belief.

Masha Allah! Very eloquently explained. I'll further explain 'fitrah' as the primordial disposition (inherent in every souls) which is naturally inclined towards the Oneness (Tawhid) of Allah/God and His 'nature'. Therefore, when a non-muslim embraces Islam we say he has 'reverted' back to his natural disposition or state.

@ Ashfaq

The use of 'convert' is also acceptable in English. But the usage of 'revert' is more appropriate in light of the above.
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Old May 10, 2011, 08:27 AM
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@Puck,

Though you profess you have no intention of hijacking this tread but by engaging in a needless "Jihad" with idumb you're EXACTLY doing that. But you know this all too well.

@idumb,

The fact that I didn't 'contribute' anything by not writing a single text to the body doesn't mean you should "'trash" the thread. Rather than resorting to the 'esoteric' way of teaching the finer points of BC postings why don't you just simply post what you feel is the right way to make an contribution. I didn't post it in the YOUTUBE video clips thread as I intend to "share" further more stories in the future, Insha Allah. Salaam
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  #21  
Old May 10, 2011, 08:35 AM
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I dedicate the following video particularly to my idumb brother who is fond of texts in a post

http://
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  #22  
Old May 10, 2011, 08:55 AM
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Thank you very much BanCricFan bro for the video. I believe, not all things need to have text along with them when a video speaks for itself.....
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  #23  
Old May 10, 2011, 09:13 AM
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Excellent share that one BCF !
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  #24  
Old May 10, 2011, 11:44 AM
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Mashallah. This thread is becoming my favorite..
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Old May 10, 2011, 03:02 PM
Sakib Sakib is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck
Sakib, you have clarified the concept of reversion here. Following your assertion, it would suggest that a greater effort is required for the convert, in your terms, the revert to come back to Islam. Does that mean this 'revert' is more highly prized by the creator than the individual who had been born within Islam and had not strayed, perhaps like yourself?
just to clarify, you can use either revert or convert. its just a term, nothing much. but some converts prefer the term revert.

God judge us according to our intentions and actions. doesn't matter whether you are a born Muslim or revert. if you are not practicing, if you don't follow the commandments properly, then even if you have reverted, not much value. but the 'advantage' that converts have over us born Muslims is that, at the time they convert, all their past sins are forgiven, i.e. they get a clean sheet. but from that moment forward, we all are same in God's eyes.
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