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Forget Cricket Talk about anything [within Board Rules, of course :) ]

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  #1  
Old March 21, 2005, 04:45 PM
couger couger is offline
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Default First Female IMAM

I submit, regrefully, that my knowledge of Islam is limited. But if it is allowed in Islam, I think this is simply great.


http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4&sect...=20&m=3&y=2005
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  #2  
Old March 22, 2005, 02:02 PM
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Yeah...should be encouraged if its allowed....
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  #3  
Old March 22, 2005, 02:04 PM
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Some lady through misguided feeling of inferiority, armed with the zeal of a radical feminist, egged on by secularist and followed by ignorant imbeciles have perpetrated an act of supreme idiocy.

Let the cultists and freaks come out of the woodworks, however those of us with common sense should not give any credence to this folly for it was beyond contempt.
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  #4  
Old March 22, 2005, 02:10 PM
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I was indifferent to it. But if it has p****d off mb444 then I applaud it. May she continue.
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  #5  
Old March 22, 2005, 02:48 PM
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For those who have no such understanding of Islam Please note...........

Women can not lead men to prayer; however, they can lead other women to prayer.

Similarly, men can not lead women to prayer within a same congregation, ie in an open non segregated prayer space. For a gathering of women there is no necessity for men respect of performing any religious duties.

Furthermore, women have no obligation what so ever to go to a Friday prayer or indeed to any prayers in the mosque. This does not mean they are excluded from the mosque, simply that they have given a lot of latitude in Islam.

Men and women are equal in Islam, however they have different roles, responsibilities and duties.

It is this differences of roles that is exploited by the secularist and agent provocateurs to claim the supposed gender inequalities in Islam. They conveniently forgets that Islamic regulation strikes balance through compensatory measures in responsibilities and duties. Wherever inequity is prescribed, i.e laws of inheritance – It is prescribed that a daughter should receive property or money to a value equalling 1/3 of that to be inherited by a son. This would seem unfair at a first glance and this example is cited above any other by secularists and anti-Muslims as a war cry. What they however do not say is that Islamic Law also dictates that the responsibilities for the care of elderly parents is the sole province of the son. For every equity there is increased responsibility and duties and for every inequity there is compensatory decrease in responsibilities and duties.

In respect of Islam and gender, men and women are not separate but equal, they are separate and complementary . Western feminism and secularism in general has goals of seeking equality between the genders by homogenising the roles of men and women. They have taken equality to mean the same.
Islam does not follow such base logic of the lowest common denominator. Its rational is more sophisticated and at the heart of it is the recognition that the genders are not at war or competition with one another, but are complementary.
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  #6  
Old March 22, 2005, 02:56 PM
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MwrKhan,

I see you are on form with your anti-Islamism or is it just me................

However I urge you to read my comments again and I am sure that even someone as banal and intellectually challenged as yourself should stumble to the conclusion that I am not particularly bothered about this old news……..
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  #7  
Old March 22, 2005, 03:43 PM
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lol, this "female imam" thing is a big joke!
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  #8  
Old March 22, 2005, 06:58 PM
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It may seem a very progressive move but I have to agree with mb444. Islam doesn't allow an woman to lead man in prayers.
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  #9  
Old March 22, 2005, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mb444
MwrKhan,

I see you are on form with your anti-Islamism or is it just me................

However I urge you to read my comments again and I am sure that even someone as banal and intellectually challenged as yourself should stumble to the conclusion that I am not particularly bothered about this old news……..
mb444, I read your comments and have to say they are well thaught out and nicely put. Like I said my knowledge in this field is painfully limited so I'll take your word for a lot of it.

But why do you feel the need to lash out and call names? I've seen you do this with Cisco Systems on another thread. Your atriculate reasoning should be good enough to shut anyone up if the point they're presenting is wrong (or you can prove them wrong).
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  #10  
Old March 22, 2005, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by couger
Quote:
Originally posted by mb444
MwrKhan,

I see you are on form with your anti-Islamism or is it just me................

However I urge you to read my comments again and I am sure that even someone as banal and intellectually challenged as yourself should stumble to the conclusion that I am not particularly bothered about this old news……..
mb444, I read your comments and have to say they are well thaught out and nicely put. Like I said my knowledge in this field is painfully limited so I'll take your word for a lot of it.

But why do you feel the need to lash out and call names? I've seen you do this with Cisco Systems on another thread. Your atriculate reasoning should be good enough to shut anyone up if the point they're presenting is wrong (or you can prove them wrong).
It's not just the Cisco systems thread. The poor fellow just can't help himself. I find his outbursts hilarious and get a kick out of his reactions
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  #11  
Old March 22, 2005, 08:09 PM
ekatturerBangalee ekatturerBangalee is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by faceoff
It may seem a very progressive move but I have to agree with mb444. Islam doesn't allow an woman to lead man in prayers.
Is it really true?
Does Quran state this specifically?
Or this is coming from Male dominated Islamists who are not ready to accept a female Imam. After all, this female Imam is from Middle East.

Edited on, March 23, 2005, 1:10 AM GMT, by ekatturerBangalee.
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  #12  
Old March 22, 2005, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mb444
For those who have no such understanding of Islam Please note...........

Men and women are equal in Islam, however they have different roles, responsibilities and duties.
Indeed. But notice how the roles, responsibilities and duties have been distributed in a way to excessively pander to the male ego.
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  #13  
Old March 22, 2005, 11:06 PM
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Default stirring the pot ...

Let me ask this question: why is it that the so called western civilazation has had so few female heads of state? Ireland and England have had elected female heads of state, but are there any other? A woman president is at least a generation away in states, two generations away in Germany. On the other hand, Pakistan, BD have had female heads of state. In fact Asia's record in this area is way better. Burma elected Aung Sun Sukyi (sp?) before the junta suppresed her, Sri Lanka had the worlds 1st female head of state and India had Indira.

So let's not all paint the Western concept of feminine equality as the ideal.

My own knowledge of Islam is limited but it seems many of the anti-woman accusations heaped on it stem from paternalistic societies appliying/practicing only the convenient (for the M.C.P.s) tenets and ignoring other . In which case, instead of blaming the faith, we should castigate those who usurp it.

My own favorite is the fabled "shamir payer nichey bou er behest" - a Satyagraha derivative if ever there was one.

Edited on, March 23, 2005, 11:55 AM GMT, by razabq.
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  #14  
Old March 23, 2005, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Let me ask this question: why is it that the so called purveyor of western civilazation has had so few female heads of state? Ireland and England have had elected female heads of state, but are there any other? A woman president is at least a generation away in states, two generations away in Germany. On the other hand, Pakistan, BD have had female heads of state. In fact Asia's record in this area is way better. Burma elected Aung Sun Sukyi (sp?) before the junta suppresed her, Sri Lanka had the worlds 1st female head of state and India had Indira.
Female leaders of this region have come to politics with strong family background. A lot of credit for their reaching the top goes to their fathers and husbands
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  #15  
Old March 23, 2005, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spitfire_x86
Female leaders of this region have come to politics with strong family background. A lot of credit for their reaching the top goes to their fathers and husbands
Doesn't change the fact that we as a society are quite prepared to accept them as such or that families have the mindset to groom their children as such. In US it's perfectly acceptable to the psyche that Bush Sr. should groom his two kids for politics or the males from the Kennedy clan should go into it. How come you don't hear of a Chelsea or Laura being groomed to do the same?
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  #16  
Old March 23, 2005, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spitfire_x86
Quote:
Let me ask this question: why is it that the so called purveyor of western civilazation has had so few female heads of state? Ireland and England have had elected female heads of state, but are there any other? A woman president is at least a generation away in states, two generations away in Germany. On the other hand, Pakistan, BD have had female heads of state. In fact Asia's record in this area is way better. Burma elected Aung Sun Sukyi (sp?) before the junta suppresed her, Sri Lanka had the worlds 1st female head of state and India had Indira.
Female leaders of this region have come to politics with strong family background. A lot of credit for their reaching the top goes to their fathers and husbands
Then what would u say about JUNGLE chacha coming to power in USA? Family connection or somethng else.. We have a moyor here in Missouri got elected just becuase he is a cousin of the law ministar that resigned or laid off!!!(forgot his stupid name) anyway how come well related people like hillary can't even think about running for presidency even though she the most popular person in usa and rest of the world....

Edited on, March 23, 2005, 2:21 PM GMT, by akabir77.
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  #17  
Old March 23, 2005, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by razabq
Quote:
Originally posted by Spitfire_x86
Female leaders of this region have come to politics with strong family background. A lot of credit for their reaching the top goes to their fathers and husbands
Doesn't change the fact that we as a society are quite prepared to accept them as such or that families have the mindset to groom their children as such. In US it's perfectly acceptable to the psyche that Bush Sr. should groom his two kids for politics or the males from the Kennedy clan should go into it. How come you don't hear of a Chelsea or Laura being groomed to do the same?
I think you are being generous in attributing the electoral status of Bandarnayeke, Benazir, Sukyi, Khaleda and Hasina to family grooming. The only female sub-continental politician who could be said to have been groomed for office was Indira Gandhi. As for the rest, they owe their positions almost exclusively to their familial status as daughters or wives of male politicians who lost power through unconstitutional or unnatural means (coup d'etat, assassination etc., Sukyi's father Gen. Aung San, the first leader of independent Burma died of natural causes I think). While it is true that we sub-continentals are prepared to see family lines continue in politics, how healthy is this mindset? Recall Sonia Gandhi, was she ever groomed? Yet there was a collective frenzy in some quarters to see her as PM. Come to think of it, Rajiv Gandhi was also thrust into the political limelight by default (it was his younger brother who was being groomed). Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that our acceptance of female heads of state/government is not an artifact of some enlightened attitude towards female emancipation (with or without religious foundation), but more of a mental pathology combined with a herd instinct.

As for muslim acceptance of prime ministers, there is a great deal of antagonism towards the concept of a female leader of the nation. When Benazir became PM many male quarters could not accept it. Same with Khaleda when she first became PM. Only when it was pointed out that a prime minister is the head of government and not head of state were they somewhat placated. Remember, the Bangladesh head of state is not Khaleda Zia but ceremonial president Iajuddin Ahmed.

In the west, apart from Thatcher, there have been several leaders of government. Golda Meier of Israel (six day war anyone?), current PM of New Zealand Helen Clarke, Edith Cresson of France (PM in 1991-92) and Kim Campbell of Canada (6 months in 1993). Mary Robinson, current president of Ireland, holds a ceremonial post.
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  #18  
Old March 23, 2005, 04:33 PM
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Article from the President of ISNA, the largest Islamic Society in North America. (I've bolded the relevant points below). .

http://www.isna.net/news/miniheadlin...icle&artid=565

Position on Leading Salat (the Formal prayer) by Women

To understand the role of woman in Islamic society, it is not sufficient to consider the factual status of women in one society or another, but one must look at the Qur'an and the Sunnah of Rasulillah. The main sources of Islamic norms are the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW. These sources contain regulations and commandments including some which relate to the role of women in Islamic society.

Allah said: "O you who believe, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His messenger, If you do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best and most suitable for final determination" (4:59). He also says, "Whoever obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah" (4:80). And Allah said:" By your Lord they will never attend faith till they make you judge in all their affairs and then they should find any difficulty in their heart to accept and submit to you" al Nisa' (4: )

Salat is an act of worship and all in acts of worship we have to follow what our Prophet (SAW) did and after him the Khulafa and Imams of the Ummah. The Prophet (SAW) said: "Pray as you see me praying." The salat has been a practice of the ummah through 1400 years and there is no room for modification of the Salat according to the "changing times."

Woman leading the congregation:

The scholars have put requirements and qualifications for the Imam of the salat, as they saw Rasulillah and his companions praying. Those qualifications are:
1) To be a Muslim.
2)To be 'Aqil (have a sound mind).
3)To be Baliq (reach the age of puberty). If a minor should lead the prayer, Abu Hanifa says the prayer (whether Fard or Sunnah) is not valid. Malik and ibn Hanbal allow it though.
4) To be a man. Many fuqaha allow women to lead women in prayer (Hanafi, Hanbali and Shafi'e). Imam Malik did not allow her to lead the prayer (Ref: Jawahir Al Akil, vol 1, pg 78; Ibn Abdeen, vol 1 pg 388; Al Dosouqee, vol 1 pg 326).
5) To be pure (have Tahara and Wudu). If someone does not have wudu or breaks his wudu, he should not lead the prayer.
6) To know the Ahkam (rules) of salat and to be able to read the Qur'an properly.


Women's position in prayer:
In a hadith the Prophet (SAW) said: "The best line of salat for men are the front and worse are the last. The best lines of salat for women are the last, and the worst are the front." In a hadith narrated by Ibn Majah the Prophet said:" A woman should not lead men in prayer," (Ibn Majah Vol:1,P343).

According to the general consensus of jurists and scholars of Hadith, a woman is not allowed to lead men in Fard or Sunnah prayer or in congregation. She is, however, allowed to lead a congregation consisting only of women. In the latter case, it is not only permitted for women to do so, rather it may even be considered highly recommended according to Imam Sha'f'ee, because of the greater rewards of praying in congregation (jama'ah) as compared to praying individually. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never said that such rewards are solely applicable to men and that women are excluded.

The authentic practice of the Mothers of the Faithful, such as `Ayesha and Umm Salamah (may Allah be pleased with them), also confirms this conclusion they lead women in fard prayer and they stood in the middle of the line( Al Muhalla Imam Ibn Hazem Vol 4 P 126,127). Ibn Umar (RA) he instructed his daughter to lead women in Ramadan, and Ayesha RA led women in Tarweeh prayer and in Maghrib prayer and she stood in the middle of line. Both of the esteemed wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), who were highly regarded for their deep grasp of religion, used to lead women in Salah (Prayer).

Although the vast majority of scholars are of the opinion that a woman may not lead men at all, there is a minority of them - including scholars such as Imam Ibn Jarir, and a jurists such as Abu Thawr and Al-Muzani - who consider it permissible for a woman to lead members of her own household in Salah. The last mentioned group of scholars have based their ruling on the following report of Abu Dawud on the authority of Umm Waraqah: The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to visit her in her own home; he appointed a mu'adhin (one who calls the adhan for Prayer) for her, and ordered her to lead the members of her household (in Salah)." Abu Daoud Hadith# 592)Umm Waraqah-as stated in the sources-was an esteemed woman of Al-Ansar who had memorized the Qur'an. `Abdul-Rahman Ibn Khalid, the narrator of the Hadith, further states: "I happened to see her mu'adhin, who was a person advanced in age."

Based on the above evidence, some scholars have concluded that a woman is allowed to lead her own family members in Salah especially in the following cases:

1) If she is exceptionally qualified and others are not so well versed in the rules of Salah and knowledge of the Qur'an.
2) If her husband is a new Muslim who is struggling to learn the rules of Salah and the Qur'an, while she herself is perfectly well versed in them;
3) If she is a mother of minors who are still learning the rules of Salah and the Qur'an

In the 1400 year history of Islam no scholar who knows and has studied fiqh and the rules of Rasulillah and the Sunnah has permitted the Friday prayer to be led by a woman. The main schools of thought (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'e, Hanbali, and Ja'fari) as well as the Zaydi's and the Zahari's consider this prayer invalid.

Allah knows the best

Shaikh M. Nour, President of ISNA
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  #19  
Old August 9, 2005, 01:13 PM
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I will add to this:

Nabi (S.A.W.), while delivering a sermon, directly prohibited women from leading prayers, "Behold! No women should lead a man in prayer." (Sunan-e-Ibne Majah)

The Qur’an speaks, "And whatever the messenger assigns to you, you should accept, and whatever he forbids you from, you should refrain. And fear Allah, certainly Allah is severe in afflicting." (Surah Al-Hashar, Verse 7)
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  #20  
Old August 9, 2005, 03:56 PM
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wow, I'm trying to stay away. My final on India history is next Monday, the 15th. Wish me luck.... I can't wait to hop back into these intreaguing discussions with everyone. Especially, discussion regarding women.

Those are near and dear to my heart.

Firstly, here is the lastest from BBC on the Roman Catholic Church.

source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...ts/4119254.stm

article:

Catholic woman in secret ordination

By Julian Pettifer
BBC Radio 4's Crossing Continents


A woman has been ordained as a priest in a secret ceremony in central Europe as an act of defiance against the Roman Catholic Church.


The woman who was "ordained" does not want to be identified

Three years ago, the Vatican moved decisively against an international movement for the ordination of women when it excommunicated the so-called Danube Seven.

Seven women had claimed the status of priests after a form of ordination ceremony held on a boat moored on the river Danube.

Now a similar ceremony has taken place in a private chapel in central Europe.

BBC Radio 4's Crossing Continents Crossing Europe witnessed the event but only on condition the programme does not reveal the exact location or the identity of the young woman.

The unofficial ordination comes just two months after the inauguration of Pope Benedict XVI who is known for his traditional views.

In the case of the Danube Seven, it was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger - now Pope Benedict - who declared that since the women gave no indication of repentance "for the most serious offence they have committed, they have incurred excommunication".

But his stern admonitions have been ignored. Among those conducting the ordination the BBC witnessed, were women from the Danube Seven who now describe themselves as bishops.


Act of protest

The most recent ceremony took place in an improvised chapel in the upper room of a private house.


The woman will not be able publicly to admit to her priestly status

Only about a dozen men and women attended the ceremony including those conducting it.

The programme was told the ceremony and the words used were almost identical to those laid down by the Roman Catholic Church, including a number of vows taken by the ordinand, promising to take on the responsibilities of priesthood.

Before the service, the young woman at the centre of it all spoke about her act of defiance.

She admitted it worried her, but said: "I hope that in five years, in 10 years, things will change because there are many women who would like to go the same way, and the way will be a little better prepared for them".

She said she did not wish to be identified because she feared losing her job teaching religious education.

She was not able to explain why it was worth going through all this, when at the end of the day, she would still be unable legitimately to perform any of the duties of a priest or even admit to her alleged priestly status.

We must assume it was primarily an act of protest.

Church law

That impression was confirmed by talking to Patricia, one of those conducting the ceremony, who had been ordained in a similar way.

Patricia has impeccable Catholic credentials. For 45 years she was a Dominican sister, nun and an academic, who trained with men destined for the priesthood.


An unjust law need not be adhered to

Patricia, an "ordained" Catholic
"My first feeling was: I'm doing the same study as the men, and I'm being excluded from the priesthood. It's so damned unfair," she said.

Patricia's staunch opinions are informed by her background.

She grew up in South Africa under apartheid laws that denied black people their human rights "and one of the ways to break an unjust law is to break it", she said.

I put it to her that the Church would argue that you may not challenge God's law.

But Patricia insisted there is nothing in scripture to exclude women from the priesthood: "It's a human law, a Church law, and this has been changed a number of times over the centuries. And an unjust law need not be adhered to."

'Theologically impossible'

I put some of these arguments to the President of the Pontifical Council for Social Communications in Rome, Archbishop John Paul Foley.

He first of all stated that the ceremony of ordination we had witnessed was "not just illicit but invalid".

CROSSING CONTINENTS
Singing From a New Hymn Sheet will be broadcast on BBC Radio 4 on Thursday, 23 June, at 1102 BST
Programme information
When I also put it to him that it is unfair to exclude women from the priesthood, he argued: "As a man I cannot conceive... is that unfair? By divine decision... there is this difference."

The archbishop continued that just as it is biologically impossible for a man to conceive, it is theologically impossible for a woman to be a priest.

The day following the "ordination", I attended mass at a local church and talked to the congregation about women priests.

I made no mention of the ceremony I had witnessed, but every person questioned, male and female, young and old, said they would welcome women into the Roman Catholic priesthood.

When I put this to Archbishop Foley, he said: "I don't think you win a war by surrender. The question is, what did Jesus want? What did he reveal? And what does the Church authoritatively teach?

"That's the norm by which we must judge, not by opinion polls."


Also, here is a thread for those interested in studying and understanding women. I would love to discuss it with those interested after August 15th, after my final.

Warning

Warning: This article is not for the faint of heart. However, for those ready for a "civilized" discussion about the plight of women in wars, I will be back on Aug. 15th to continue to discuss this thread.

As John Lennon said in his song, "Women are the Nigger of the world." ...and I am one guy that is intent to do every little bit to fight for their cause. The minute the Roman Cathlic church priests come to Vancouver, I'm there. The minute a Mosque comes to Vancouver, with a women Imam, I'll be there to contribute, with my wife.

Again, this article is exceptionally disturbing, so do not read on if you are faint of heart. It has to do with the second partition of India in 1947. There are a multitude of reasons why this, and things such as this happened!, It has also happened to varying degrees in all parts of the world.

http://www.tamu.edu/chr/agora/summer00/pennebaker.pdf

PAGE 7 AND ON tells some of the young girls stories of what happened, but read the whole thing to get the context.


Edited on, August 9, 2005, 9:30 PM GMT, by whiteguy.
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  #21  
Old August 9, 2005, 08:36 PM
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Personally, I am confused as to my verdict on the whole thing. I support women having a leadership role in society, but do not support women leading prayer.

My solution may be a little odd, and a little technical, but here goes: Perhaps a woman imam can deliver the 'kutbah' (sermon), and a man can lead the prayer. This arrangment arises from the fact that the act of prayer (ie. bending, bowing, etc.) makes a female leading a prayer, in front of a mass congregation consisiting of women and men, is not appropriate.
As the article states:

Quote:
Prayer in Islam “features getting up, sitting down and kneeling...It is not befitting for a woman to make these movements in the presence of men when worshipping requires a peaceful mind and concentration on communicating with God,” said Qaradawi, an Egyptian-born scholar.
Alternatively, the woman can 'retreat' to the woman's quarters and lead the prayer from there. With microphones and PA systems, it wouldn't be too hard to broadcast her voice to all parts of teh mosque. A man could stand in front of the men to act as a 'stand-in' and lead the various movements of the prayer, and perhaps 'repeat' certain parts (ie. the "Allahuakbar" and "Semiallahullimanhamidah" parts, etc.).

I think my arrangment of dividing the leading of prayers is a practical and agreeable arrangment...

Edited on, August 10, 2005, 1:41 AM GMT, by jabbar.
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  #22  
Old August 9, 2005, 08:59 PM
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Jabbar..

Very impressive solution. Even though, begin a male, I take exception to the assumption that all men are always waiting to be aroused at the slightest movement of a female.
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Old August 10, 2005, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mb444
Some lady through misguided feeling of inferiority, armed with the zeal of a radical feminist, egged on by secularist and followed by ignorant imbeciles have perpetrated an act of supreme idiocy.

Let the cultists and freaks come out of the woodworks, however those of us with common sense should not give any credence to this folly for it was beyond contempt.
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  #24  
Old August 10, 2005, 07:31 AM
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BanCricFan BanCricFan is offline
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Jabbar,
Although I applaud your innovative input in this discussion but I put it like this...why fix something if its not broken?
If the Messanger of Allah didn't see it fit for women to lead men in Salah than why should we? Has there been a soul who has done more for the women's right than our most beloved Prophet?

Traditionally, almost all Khutaba (Khatibs) of Jummu'ah prayers have been leaders of their communities, therefore, a Khaatib is not only a speaker who delivers the sermon but essentially a leader also! Now, Islam discourages/excuses women to assumes leadership not because she is inferior to men but because of her nature, intended roles and responsibilities.

This yard stick of measurring "progress" by citing the number of female presidents, PMs and MPs is not only a shameful one for the muslims but also shows how indoctrinated we have become by concepts which are totally alien to Islam!

We do not have the "battle of the sexes" in Islam. There has never been a need from the begenning! Eve is never solely blamed for the fall of "Adam" rather both are equally blamed for their inherent human weakness- which is forgetfulness! Allah knows best!

The fact that, more than half of all American and European converts to Islam are women is a living testimony to Islam's sense of justice and fairness to women! Yes, basic women's rights are violated in "muslim" countries and that is because majority of these socities are ignorant of Islam!

Edited on, August 10, 2005, 12:42 PM GMT, by BanCricFan.
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  #25  
Old August 10, 2005, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by newbie
Jabbar..

Very impressive solution. Even though, begin a male, I take exception to the assumption that all men are always waiting to be aroused at the slightest movement of a female.
Prevention is better than cure!
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