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  #226  
Old April 1, 2005, 06:19 PM
imtiaz82 imtiaz82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by mwrkhan

Did you really think I was refering to whether or not this person wears a cap?

According the bio which you posted this gentleman attended "Topiwalla National Medical College"
You had the first part of the college in quotation as "topiwala". So I assumed that you were trying to relate him to jamati islami type students who goes to various colleges in Bangladesh.Many of my friends back home used to call those students "topiwalla scholar" to demean them and show how they lacked scientific knowledge.

But I might be wrong, maybe you just meant to show the name of his college and not refer his "topi" to relate him to a psedu scholar.My apologies in that case...

Edited on, April 1, 2005, 11:22 PM GMT, by nayeem007.
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  #227  
Old April 1, 2005, 06:57 PM
nihi nihi is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by nayeem007
First of all, what is "Razab syndrome"? I can see Arnab's writing style in your replies. You are trying to use sarcasm to demean him. I think you should show respect to other people's point of view and refrain from such namings.

But if you continue writing "Razab Syndrome" it will just show how narrow minded person you are. It might even encourage other people to make similar kind of names like "Mwrkhan-orpheues-arnab-nihi" syndrome. Which in turn, will turn this forum into a place for personal hate messages, instead of a site to have constructive arguments.
I thought you read all the posts of this thread, since you are participating here. Or at least all my posts, since you are having a dialogue with me. If you had, you would've known that I am not demeaning Razab by using 'razab syndrome'. I have rather taken the opportunity to honour him, since he first mentioned the syndrome in this thread. I just named it after him. You should go back and see where it originated from (you will see an unsocially big post by me). Anyway, I myself would be glad to use some other word, since this is leading to misunderstandings. Please suggest some once you are acquainted with the thing

Quote:
Also, can you please quote, from where you read/heard the "skin roasting example"? I think you are taking it out of context or making up the whole thing to make fun of Dr. Zakir Naik.
Again, I thought you must have gone through the write-ups those you have refered to us. Here is the link that you gave:

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/shams/shared/

You will find the "skin" thing at the end of the write-up, just before the Q&A part, in the document: quran_and_modern_science part_I.doc.

But I would ask you to really understand what I have tried to said, before coming up with another answer.

Quote:
With my rational, I can't figure out why a scholar will use such an example. And why would people clap after hearing this.(specially since his audience are university students not illterate people.) I have listened to lot of his lectures and I never came across such stupid example like the one you gave.
With my rational, I can. I see everyday people doing stupid things. That is nothing unusual and nothing to be ashamed of. In this world each one of us find ourselves in stupid situations several times a day. No one is exception. Not you, not me, not Mr. Naik and not any of the audience.

Another thing, I would honestly ask you to give second thought before you derive to a decision about what others are saying. And if you are not sure please ask questions. No offence, I mean it.

Edited on, April 2, 2005, 12:00 AM GMT, by nihi.
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  #228  
Old April 1, 2005, 07:52 PM
imtiaz82 imtiaz82 is offline
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I looked over the lecture again, this is what he said:


Quote:
Previously, the doctors they thought that only the brain was responsible for feeling of pain. It is now we have come to know that there are certain receptors in the skin, called as ‘pain receptors’, which are also responsible of feeling of pain. No wonder when a patient of burn injury comes to a doctor, he takes a pin and he pricks it in that area. If the patient feels pain, doctor is very happy - It means It is a superficial burn, the pain receptors are intact. If he does not feel pain, It is a deep burn, the pain receptors have been destroyed. The Qur'an says in Surah Nisa, Ch. No. 4, Verse No. 56, ‘As to those who reject our signs, We shall cast them into the hell fire, and as often as their skins are roasted, We shall give them fresh skins, so that they shall feel the pain’. Qur'an says… ‘If your skin is roasted, We shall give you fresh skin, so that you'll feel the pain’. Giving an indication… there is something in the skin which is responsible for the feeling of pain – Indication is the pain receptor. When Professor Tagada Tagashon, who is the head of the department of Anatomy, in Shangma University in Thailand - he was given the translation of this verse. And he has spent a lot of time in doing research on pain receptors, he said… ‘It is impossible that Qur'an can mention this. We discovered it recently – How is it possible?’ - He did not agree with it. Later on, after checking with the Holy Qur'an, after verifying the Holy Qur'an, he was so impressed, that in the 8th Medical Saudi Conference, in Riyadh in the Conference, he said the Shahadah … ‘La Ilaha Il Allah, Muhammadur Rasulallah’. ‘There is no God but Allah, and Prophet Muhammed is the messenger of Allah (SWT)’.
The way you put the same passage, made it look lot different, if not absurd.

PS There are lot of writing by lot of people, it's not humanly possible to remember each and everything someone said. So even if I read it, I am not bound to remember every single thing.

Edited on, April 2, 2005, 12:54 AM GMT, by nayeem007.
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  #229  
Old April 1, 2005, 08:35 PM
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mwrkhan mwrkhan is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by nayeem007

Previously, the doctors they thought that only the brain was responsible for feeling of pain. It is now we have come to know that there are certain receptors in the skin, called as ‘pain receptors’, which are also responsible of feeling of pain.

This statement leaves me dumbfounded, coming from a medical doctor. The brain can only perceive pain because it receives and processes nerve signals from other parts of the body. The specific _identification_ of the pain receptors in the skin which generate those signals may be a recent discovery, but obviously undamaged skin is sensitive to pain which we can feel ONLY BECAUSE the signals travel to the brain. If pain receptors are responsible for pain then can we feel it _independent_ of the brain? What the good doctor is saying, if true, is that pain receptors alone can cause us to experience pain. That is impossible since only the brain can process nerve signals. Badly burnt skin has damaged pain receptors and cause us to lose feeling, but the same is true of neurological damage - in other words you can have healthy skin with intact pain receptors but if specific parts of the brain are damaged you will feel no pain at all. The brain is central. - mwrkhan

Edited on, April 2, 2005, 1:39 AM GMT, by mwrkhan.
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  #230  
Old April 1, 2005, 08:41 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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I think this "Doctor" is crazy and should be stripped of his professional status.

Or in the very least shouldn't be allowed to speak about things that he cannot seem to express properly and clearly.

Edited on, April 2, 2005, 1:41 AM GMT, by Arnab.
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  #231  
Old April 1, 2005, 09:23 PM
nihi nihi is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by nayeem007
The way you put the same passage, made it look lot different, if not absurd.
Well, I put only the part of the passage that was necessary to introduce to prove my point. I don't assume that everyone here will just stick to what I have pasted here. Anyway, have you at least got the point I wanted to make?

Quote:
PS There are lot of writing by lot of people, it's not humanly possible to remember each and everything someone said. So even if I read it, I am not bound to remember every single thing.
That's understandable.
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  #232  
Old April 1, 2005, 10:23 PM
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RazabQ RazabQ is offline
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Well, I'd have no worries about the usage of "Razab syndrome" term except I don't want to be running for public office some time in the future and some lazy journalist type googles me and comes upon it - then doesn't bother to read Nihi's rather long post.:-) On a more serious note, everyone here can agree that the term syndrome has mostly negative connotations. If we are to have a fair exchange of ideas, one group should't refer to the other's position with a -ve term right? I never used the word syndrome did I?

I propose Pre-disposed Tendency Towards Accepting Religious Ideas (PeTTRI). Since it kinda sounds like that fundamental tool for so many science experiments, the petri dish, hopefully the Atheist camp will accept?

I still maintain that belief in science is not mutually exclusive to belief in the supernatural tho
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  #233  
Old April 1, 2005, 10:27 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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Quote:
I still maintain that belief in science is not mutually exclusive to belief in the supernatural tho
And you are still wrong. Tell me which scientific discipline includes a belief in supernatural.

Supernatural entities are by deifinition absolutely excluded from the scientific framework of knowledge, because it disrupts the very principle axiom of science: the world is causally closed.

Edited on, April 2, 2005, 3:28 AM GMT, by Arnab.
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  #234  
Old April 1, 2005, 11:06 PM
nihi nihi is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by razabq
On a more serious note, everyone here can agree that the term syndrome has mostly negative connotations. If we are to have a fair exchange of ideas, one group should't refer to the other's position with a -ve term right? I never used the word syndrome did I?

I propose Pre-disposed Tendency Towards Accepting Religious Ideas (PeTTRI). Since it kinda sounds like that fundamental tool for so many science experiments, the petri dish, hopefully the Atheist camp will accept?

I still maintain that belief in science is not mutually exclusive to belief in the supernatural tho
Let me apologize first.

Secondly, 'syndrome' may have negative connotation, but that shouldn't connote any negativity to the propounder of the syndrome. A bad disease named after a scientist (can't come up with any example) doesn't connote anything bad to the scientist

But I concede that physical presence of something bad may very well deface something good or neutral (something like prolonged comprehensive illusion by juxtaposition of opposite senses), which may be why Romans killed Cinna the poet, the namesake of the conspirator who killed Caeser. But it didn't came to my mind until Nayeem misunderstood the usage. Had I been aware of it, I would've come up with a replacement . But sorry anyway.

Now, if you really have got what I tried to cover by the term (... oops, that was close!)... whatitsname, and I think you did, then you should know that it covers 'petaai' too (Pre-disposed Tendency Towards Accepting Atheistic Ideas). So, we are spawning two 7-words phrases splitting a convenient single word cognomen. But I believe in right of minority
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  #235  
Old April 2, 2005, 01:04 AM
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Orpheus Orpheus is offline
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oh bechara nayeem, the lone fighter of God. I admire that you are actually digging up stuff and learning things - I wouldve just given up But try not to pull out crap though. Anyways, I don't know why you have an idea that just because he is a doctor, he will know a lot about evolution. Doctors should be well informed about anatomy and metabolic pathaways.. not evolution

So I decided that I will join you. I say God exist!
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  #236  
Old April 2, 2005, 01:24 AM
imtiaz82 imtiaz82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by mwrkhan

This statement leaves me dumbfounded, coming from a medical doctor. The brain can only perceive pain because it receives and processes nerve signals from other parts of the body. The specific _identification_ of the pain receptors in the skin which generate those signals may be a recent discovery, but obviously undamaged skin is sensitive to pain which we can feel ONLY BECAUSE the signals travel to the brain. If pain receptors are responsible for pain then can we feel it _independent_ of the brain? What the good doctor is saying, if true, is that pain receptors alone can cause us to experience pain. That is impossible since only the brain can process nerve signals. Badly burnt skin has damaged pain receptors and cause us to lose feeling, but the same is true of neurological damage - in other words you can have healthy skin with intact pain receptors but if specific parts of the brain are damaged you will feel no pain at all. The brain is central. - mwrkhan

Edited on, April 2, 2005, 7:48 AM GMT, by nayeem007.
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  #237  
Old April 2, 2005, 01:32 AM
imtiaz82 imtiaz82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Orpheus
oh bechara nayeem, the lone fighter of God. I admire that you are actually digging up stuff and learning things - I wouldve just given up But try not to pull out crap though. Anyways, I don't know why you have an idea that just because he is a doctor, he will know a lot about evolution. Doctors should be well informed about anatomy and metabolic pathaways.. not evolution

So I decided that I will join you. I say God exist!
If I am not wrong, doctors have to take lot of biology classes at undergrad level and at med school. Thus, it can be presumed that they should have quite a lot of knowledge on evolution. Afterall, "theory of evolution" is taught in basic biology classes too.

Also, the reason I posted his reply is not solely based on the fact that he is doctor. He has done much research about Islam and its relation to Science. Since our main argument is on that,I thought it would be useful to show his view.

Lastly, I am not arguing for the sake of arguing. I sincerly believe that God exists and I think it is my moral duty to help others to go in the right way. But I have my limitations in ILm(knowledge), thus I have to take reference from other scholars. But, if you think I am just arguing for the sake of proving my point, I might as well stop replying, because that is not my intention.

Edited on, April 2, 2005, 10:11 AM GMT, by nayeem007.
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  #238  
Old April 2, 2005, 03:45 AM
imtiaz82 imtiaz82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by mwrkhan

This statement leaves me dumbfounded, coming from a medical doctor. The brain can only perceive pain because it receives and processes nerve signals from other parts of the body. The specific _identification_ of the pain receptors in the skin which generate those signals may be a recent discovery, but obviously undamaged skin is sensitive to pain which we can feel ONLY BECAUSE the signals travel to the brain. If pain receptors are responsible for pain then can we feel it _independent_ of the brain? What the good doctor is saying, if true, is that pain receptors alone can cause us to experience pain. That is impossible since only the brain can process nerve signals. Badly burnt skin has damaged pain receptors and cause us to lose feeling, but the same is true of neurological damage - in other words you can have healthy skin with intact pain receptors but if specific parts of the brain are damaged you will feel no pain at all. The brain is central. - mwrkhan
I think you have misunderstood what Dr Zakir Naik said. He basically meant that the pain recoptors in the skin is responsible for the feeling of pain.(since the pain recoptors send the signal to the brain, which in turn cause the sensation of pain.) Only recently scientists found out that the skin have pain recoptors and not the muscle/tissue below it. Thus, if there is a deep burn, the patient don't feel pain as the skin containing the pain recoptors is gone.

This is remarkable in the sense that , 1400 years back it was impossible for someone to figure out that only skin has pain recoptors not the muscle or tissue underneath it. And Quran clearly mentions that "skin will be replaced, so that jahanamis will feel the pain continously" ,if the skin is not being replaced, the person won't feel the pain as the muscle/tissue underneath the skin does not have pain recoptors.

Dr Naik never said that the skin itself senses the pain without the aid of brain. A medical doctor won't make such absurd claims. I guess you didn't understand what he was pointing to.

Edited on, April 2, 2005, 7:48 PM GMT, by nayeem007.
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  #239  
Old April 3, 2005, 07:56 PM
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Orpheus Orpheus is offline
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Oh no what happened to this discussion? Looks like nayeem won!!!! Bravo!!!!
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