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  #51  
Old March 25, 2005, 03:49 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by al Furqaan
aight arnab,

you deliberately attacked a religion (mostly islam) on the first post of this thread (or another thread). was there really a need to do that? did anyone attack athiesim before that?

just because you have no morals or values, and cant respect prophets except for their "manipulative powers" doesn't mean that ppl with values have to tolerate deliberate provocation from your part.
Hmm...I am not sure if I follow you. I was giving an example of Muhammad as an "alpha male" in reply to Orpheus in the other thread (before Chinaman split it), who also acknowledged that it was a good example. I think all kinds of prophets from any religion are mostly historically glorified hacks like any other sadhu baba or Pirbabas you still find in the Indian subcontinent. I don't think I am deliberately "attacking" any particular person here. Just speaking my mind. Can you respect my right to speak my mind?

In fact, this not even about "attacking" or "defending" anything. You need to get out of this "battle/war/win-lose" mindset.

And I have plenty of morals and values, thank you. In fact, I am pretty sure I have studied about morals and values more than most humans do in their lifetime. And I say this NOT with an intention to assert my superiority. Just stating my experience.
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  #52  
Old March 25, 2005, 03:55 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:

And I have plenty of morals and values, thank you. In fact, I am pretty sure I have studied about morals and values more than most humans do in their lifetime. And I say this NOT with an intention to assert my superiority. Just stating my experience.
might i ask where these values and morals come from? the athiest's bible?
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  #53  
Old March 25, 2005, 04:11 PM
imtiaz82 imtiaz82 is offline
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Thanks for clarifying that the ideas were your thoughts not facts. I appreciate that you used " I think, I have, I am etc" in this post.

If your first post was phrased in a similar way, I would have no problem with it.

Btw, please do read the article:

http://www.harunyahya.com/70the_fall...eism_sci34.php


Quote:
Originally posted by Arnab

Hmm...I am not sure if I follow you. I was giving an example of Muhammad as an "alpha male" in reply to Orpheus in the other thread (before Chinaman split it), who also acknowledged that it was a good example. I think all kinds of prophets from any religion are mostly historically glorified hacks like any other sadhu baba or Pirbabas you still find in the Indian subcontinent. I don't think I am deliberately "attacking" any particular person here. Just speaking my mind. Can you respect my right to speak my mind?

In fact, this not even about "attacking" or "defending" anything. You need to get out of this "battle/war/win-lose" mindset.

And I have plenty of morals and values, thank you. In fact, I am pretty sure I have studied about morals and values more than most humans do in their lifetime. And I say this NOT with an intention to assert my superiority. Just stating my experience.
Edited on, March 25, 2005, 9:12 PM GMT, by nayeem007.
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  #54  
Old March 25, 2005, 04:59 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by nayeem007
Thanks for clarifying that the ideas were your thoughts not facts. I appreciate that you used " I think, I have, I am etc" in this post.

If your first post was phrased in a similar way, I would have no problem with it.
Sure. But allow me to discuss this in an off-topic fashion. Does it REALLY matter whether what I think of Muhammad are facts or my thoughts? Does it really change anything as far as the discussion?

Why do I have to repeatedly mention "I think, I have, I am"? Why do I have to spell it out for some people (like you for instance) everytime that whatever I am posting beside my name tag "Arnab" is my own thoughts? My thoughts or my conclusions about Muhammad/any other prophet could very well be true, i.e., there is a strong possibility that my thoughts are actually correct factual representations. They might not turn out to be true, but in that case I would not have said anything in the first place. What I said is not just a mere opinion, it is a thoughtful, reasoned opinion with logic and a high probability of truthfulness behind it. Whether it is a fact or not is still up to scrutiny. But I am confident that it is actually factual, i.e., it represents the truth.

So to get back to the question: should I necessarily add "I think" in front of every sentence I write? I don't think so. Should I add the phrase anyway for people who somewhat needlessly finds the omission of this meaningless distinction between fact/opinion a "problem", especially where the "opinion" is not really opinion but a reasonable hypothesis? Maybe.

Edited on, March 25, 2005, 10:00 PM GMT, by Arnab.
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  #55  
Old March 25, 2005, 05:05 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by al Furqaan
might i ask where these values and morals come from? the athiest's bible?
No, it comes from studying the history of human civilization, laws, codes, religions, works of moral philosophers, sociologists, psychologists, lawmakers, etc.

How do you think the legal system that we have now evolved over time? Studying holy books all the time? Or from human experience?
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  #56  
Old March 25, 2005, 05:26 PM
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I've read the article by Yahya (who seems to be a muslim version of American televangelists like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell) and have found nothing in it that I have not heard before. What I find strange is agenda driven science. Take the theories of Darwin for example. Darwin did not set out to "disprove" the religious orthodoxy of creationism. He arrived at his conclusions empiricaly through observation. The fact that they undermined creationism is purely incidental. Whatever the merits of the theory of evolution (and I find them compelling) they are at least not presented to us as an article of faith which is how creationism is supposed to be accepted. Herein lies the problem. Faith - is just that - unquestioned belief. For me to disregard Darwinism I have to be presented with convincing scientific evidence that purports otherwise. The fact that the Cambrian explosion is not fully explained means nothing. Science is trying to fill in the gaps in our understanding and will some day, I am sure, come up with a convincing explanation. Science is not self-righteous. "Intelligent Design" is pseudo-scientific and has only been embraced by a coterie of mainly American evangelicals.

By the way, in his gleeful co-opting of the Big-Bang theory of the origins of the universe to his cause, Yahya conveniently neglects to mention the Steady State theory of the universe whose principal proponent, Fred Hoyle of Cambridge University , passed away last year. The Steady State theory of the universe is one that claims the universe continuously existed. It has its opponents, it has its supporters, but the bottom line is that nobody is being asked to accept either theory as an article of faith. The validity of one theory or the other will be settled eventually by physicists. It is precisely this lack of arrogant certitude that attracts me to science and turns me off religion.

Edited on, March 25, 2005, 10:31 PM GMT, by mwrkhan.
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  #57  
Old March 25, 2005, 05:28 PM
imtiaz82 imtiaz82 is offline
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You should point out and make sure that the reader understand its your thought.

Otherwise, people will be just stating things like "Jamuna is the largest river in the world" , which is obviously wrong compared to the statement " I think Jumna is the longest river in the world".-which maybe right or wrong.

or I can start saying "All atheists will go to hell" instead of phrasing it "according to my belief in Islam, I think people who do not believe in the existence of God will find a place in Jahannam"

How do you know that your thoughts about prophet Mohammad(pbuh) is true? Do you have any scientific proof about it?

Just because you are spending few hours at home thinking about it or researching in libraries doesn't mean your "thoughts" are facts.

If you look at history, thousands of hypothesis has been proved wrong. And if you look at those research books and writings you will find, that the authors claimed their research to be his/her idea not state his research as facts to people.(you can only state things that have been scientifically proven example the earth revolves around the sun)

Anyways this is going off topic, I think you should start posting your high thought philosophical notions to entertain the people here...

[quote]Originally posted by Arnab

Sure. But allow me to discuss this in an off-topic fashion. Does it REALLY matter whether what I think of Muhammad are facts or my thoughts? Does it really change anything as far as the discussion?

Why do I have to repeatedly mention "I think, I have, I am"? Why do I have to spell it out for some people (like you for instance) everytime that whatever I am posting beside my name tag "Arnab" is my own thoughts? My thoughts or my conclusions about Muhammad/any other prophet could very well be true, i.e., there is a strong possibility that my thoughts are actually correct factual representations. They might not turn out to be true, but in that case I would not have said anything in the first place. What I said is not just a mere opinion, it is a thoughtful, reasoned opinion with logic and a high probability of truthfulness behind it. Whether it is a fact or not is still up to scrutiny. But I am confident that it is actually factual, i.e., it represents the truth.

So to get back to the question: should I necessarily add "I think" in front of every sentence I write? I don't think so. Should I add the phrase anyway for people who somewhat needlessly finds the omission of this meaningless distinction between fact/opinion a "problem", especially where the "opinion" is not really opinion but a reasonable hypothesis? Maybe.


Edited on, March 26, 2005, 8:14 AM GMT, by nayeem007.
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  #58  
Old March 25, 2005, 05:42 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arnab
Quote:
Originally posted by al Furqaan
might i ask where these values and morals come from? the athiest's bible?
No, it comes from studying the history of human civilization, laws, codes, religions, works of moral philosophers, sociologists, psychologists, lawmakers, etc.

How do you think the legal system that we have now evolved over time? Studying holy books all the time? Or from human experience?
so you do have morals, is that correct?
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  #59  
Old March 25, 2005, 05:47 PM
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mwrkhan mwrkhan is offline
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Since when does morality require any kind of religious foundation?
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  #60  
Old March 25, 2005, 05:47 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by al Furqaan
so you do have morals, is that correct?
Yes. Did I mention somewhere that I don't have morals?
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  #61  
Old March 25, 2005, 05:54 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by nayeem007
How do you know that your thoughts about prophet Mohammad(pbuh) is true? Do you have any scientific proof about it?
I find it rather useless to talk so vaguely about this. What did I mention about Muhammad that YOU think is untrue? That he wasn't the messenger of God? Well, I don't believe in God. I have come to that conclusion after much deliberation. Let's say my disbelief/hypothesis about God is true. I cannot scientifically disprove God. I don't have to. Because the notion of God is thoroughly unscientific. So, if that is settled, if there really is no God, and I believe that to be true, then what does my atheism logically entail to regarding Muhammad? You tell me.
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  #62  
Old March 25, 2005, 11:40 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arnab
Quote:
Originally posted by al Furqaan
so you do have morals, is that correct?
Yes. Did I mention somewhere that I don't have morals?
so you do you believe:

killing innocent people is right or wrong?
adultery is right or wrong?
stealing is right or wrong?
lying is right or wrong?

AND FINALLY is helping an old lady across the street right or wrong?
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  #63  
Old March 26, 2005, 04:52 AM
dosadeel dosadeel is offline
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Arnab, I would like to congratulate you that you have already accepted half of Islam. The shahada or claim that one has to say when one accepts Islam is, "I bear witness that there is no God, but Allah, and Muhammad (peace be upon him) is his prophet and messenger." So congratulations on accepting the part that there is no God. I only need to give you proofs about about the remaining part, so you can judge for yourself.

I’ll just exhort you to use your “power of mind” and look around outside for yourself. In this world around us, there is enough evidence of the presence of a super natural being who created the universe and is controlling the flawless nature of order and design that exists in it. From the small invisible cells to the millions of galaxies moving around in perfect harmony, and in the mechanisms of our own bodies, there are signs that point to the existence of a Creator. In other words the world around us itself is enough to prove the existence of God. It is only our arrogance and pride that leads us to claim that there is no superior being above us in this universe.

Do you not look at your own creation? I mean what are we? What is it that we have accomplished in science that makes us refute the existence of God with such confidence? No matter how much we have advanced in science and technology, we still can’t reach the depths of the ocean, or scale the highest mountains, or make the sun rise from the west instead of the east, or protect ourselves from earthquakes and tornadoes, or prevent death from touching each and everyone of us. Hell, we can't even imagine the complexities of the upper dimensions, let alone understand them.

Can you give yourself complete guarantee, sincerely from the depths of your heart, that the Supreme Being who brought this beautiful world into existence and who created you, will not make you die one day, and ask you to answer for the statements you so boldly make to reject His existence? Think about it, you’re just fooling yourself and no one else when you claim that the there is no God, and the flawless order and harmony in this universe came about by co incidence, or was the work of us mere humans. Quran gives a clear statement in chapter 3, verse 190, "For sure, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day there are signs for men of understanding."

I ask you to use your "power of mind" and tell me, if i bring a machine in front of you, which no one in the world has ever seen, and I ask you who is the first person who will be able to tell you the mechanisms of this unidentified machine? if u're logical, i'm assuming you'll say that its the creator, or the maker, or the manufacturer of the machine. Apply this to the world around us. Who is it that knows most about us, and can guide us to the right path? It is no one but the Creator and our Sustainer who can do that, and who has done that by laying the laws of creation in the Quran, brought to us by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
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  #64  
Old March 26, 2005, 05:13 AM
dosadeel dosadeel is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arnab
Quote:
Originally posted by al Furqaan
aight arnab,

you deliberately attacked a religion (mostly islam) on the first post of this thread (or another thread). was there really a need to do that? did anyone attack athiesim before that?

just because you have no morals or values, and cant respect prophets except for their "manipulative powers" doesn't mean that ppl with values have to tolerate deliberate provocation from your part.
Hmm...I am not sure if I follow you. I was giving an example of Muhammad as an "alpha male" in reply to Orpheus in the other thread (before Chinaman split it), who also acknowledged that it was a good example. I think all kinds of prophets from any religion are mostly historically glorified hacks like any other sadhu baba or Pirbabas you still find in the Indian subcontinent. I don't think I am deliberately "attacking" any particular person here. Just speaking my mind. Can you respect my right to speak my mind?
I think u need to apologize to everyone out here whom you've offended by attacking Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and Islam in general. Just because you don't believe in any religion doesn't mean you have the "right" to speak ill about other ppl's beliefs and call them mentally handicapped (as u did in one earlier post).

You've blasphemed on God by attacking Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) without giving any arguments for it, because if you read history, you’ll know that the Prophet (peace be upon him) never said anything out of his own whims and fantasies. He always claimed himself that whatever he said was revealed to him through God in the Quran. And we can check the validity of what he said through the verses of the Quran. Lets see a few of them.

Quran says in chapter 21, verse 30, "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together and we cloved them asunder". In other words, Quran mentioned at that time, the big bang theory which was discovered by recent science just yesterday. How could the prophet have written this theory 1400 years ago from the midst of the desert, with no technological equipment? You might say he guessed it, with his special "mind power” to manipulate people. ok maybe its co-incidence. no problem.

Today science tells us that the universe initially (the celestial matter) was in the form of gas. The Quran says in chapter 41, verse 11, "Allah had turned to the heaven when it was smoke, and it said to it and the earth, come ye together willingly or unwillingly. And they came together in willing obedience." Again, who could have mentioned it 1400 years ago that the celestial matter was in the form of "dukhan" (arabic word for smoke). And scientists now say that smoke is actually a more appropriate word to use than gas. You might say the prophet had special "mind power" which he used to manipulate ppl. ok no problem.

Previously we thought that the world we live in was flat. Science told us that the world is spherical, around 300/400 years ago. The first person to discover this was that scientist who sailed around the earth (forgot his name) in 1600s and proved it was spherical. The Quran says in Chapter 31, verse 29 (and again in chapter 39, verse 5) that “Allah merges the night unto the day and merges the day unto the night.” This merging of the day and night which is a gradual process is only possible if the earth is spherical. Its not possible if the earth was flat, otherwise there would be a sudden change, not merging. And the Quran says in chapter 79, verse 30, “And thereafter we have made the earth egg-shaped.” So how could the prophet (peace be upon him), living in the deserts of Arabia 1400 years ago with no knowledge of science, have mentioned that the earth is geo-spherical (in the shape of an egg of an ostrich according to scientists), and science only told it recently.

I can go on and on about the verses of the Quran that the prophet (peace be upon him) mentioned about genetics, stages of our creation in the womb, the difference between light of sun and moon, the water barriers, the water cycle, etc, etc. These are only a few of the things that the prophet (peace be upon him) said through God in the Quran, and you can judge for yourself whether he was a “mass manipulator” or a genuine prophet sent to all of humanity as a guide and a warner of life after death. There is enough justification to prove that the message of Prophet (peace be upon him) was from God, in the form of Quran that we have today. That’s why no muslim in the world will ever tell you that he/she worships prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). As muslims, we only worship one God but believe that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was sent as a messenger to guide people, just like all the other prophets and messengers (peace be upon them all) that were sent before him since the beginning of time. And for that reason we respect all prophets with the respect that they rightly deserve.
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  #65  
Old March 26, 2005, 05:26 AM
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Default For dosadeel

Dear dosadeel, much as we would like to believe that impassioned reasoning will make certain people see our version of "the light", I think in most cases, and almost certainy in this particular case, the indidual's belief system is unlikely to undergo any major change. As such all we can ask for is civil discourse and respect for each other's beliefs. My beef with Arnab has not been that he professes to be an Atheist - power to him for his choice - but rather the disdainful manner in which he treats the various attributes of our belief in God. I have taken my discussion with him off-line - I suggest you do the same.

Huda hudi atlami korar sujog debar dorkar ki?

Edited on, March 26, 2005, 10:29 AM GMT, by razabq.
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  #66  
Old March 26, 2005, 05:49 AM
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Agree with razabq. All atheists share similar views of religious fundamentalists, just only in a different shape
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  #67  
Old March 26, 2005, 06:08 AM
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you mean plain religious people dontcha spitfire? I don't think I quite qualify to become a fundamentalist Something about deat to infidel or what not
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  #68  
Old March 26, 2005, 06:13 AM
dosadeel dosadeel is offline
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neither do I
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  #69  
Old March 26, 2005, 06:48 AM
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Dosadeel, while respecting your faith, interpreting the scriptures in a way that merely conforms with your beliefs and looking for connections between science and what is written in quranic passages is a tactic used by all religious groups. Not a day goes by without us hearing from evangelical christians about biblical prophesy regarding all manner of things - scientific, political or historical. As for physics and religious texts? I can fill an entire library with books that purport to show the connection between modern physics and scripture. Hinduism and other eastern religions are rife with passages which have been interpreted as being "evidence" of divine knowledge of exact physical processes.

How can belief in a creator be anything other than blind superstition? No amount of sophistry can justify this mindset. But, one chooses to believe what one chooses to believe and everybody has that right. However, if religious self-rightousness is not arrogant I would like to know what is.
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  #70  
Old March 26, 2005, 07:45 AM
imtiaz82 imtiaz82 is offline
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Mwrkhan,

I have been following up your posts in Banglacricket. You have never given any proof to backup your statements. You are just using rhetoric to convey your "message"

Please give some examples, since you are saying you have many.

We muslims believe, that God has sent messengers to all nations as Quran says:

And for every Ummah (a community or a nation), there is a Messenger; when their Messenger comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged. (Qur'an 10:47)

And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a Messenger (proclaiming): "Worship Allah (Alone), and avoid (or keep away from) Taghut (all false deities, etc. i.e., do not worship Taghut besides Allah)." Then of them were some whom Allah guided and of them were some upon whom the straying was justified. So travel through the land and see what was the end of those who denied (the truth). (Qur'an 16:36)


So Christianity, Hinduism might might have been divine messages,but they have all changed drastically with the passage of time. Many prophets have been elevated to the position of Gods and additional stories have been added.

But Quran is the only divine message that Allah/God has promised to protect as prophet mohammad(pbuh) was sent with the message for whole mankind compared to the other prophets who were sent for a particular region. An example would be Prophet Moses(pbuh) who was sent for the "people of the Israel" only.Also Quran is the last revelation for mankind.(No offense to people of other religion in this forum, these are my views based on my belief in Islam)

Since other religious scriptures might have traces of divine messages, they have sentences which can scientifically proven but they also have sentences with scientific errors, since humans have modified it later on.(according to my belief). For example Bible states earth is flat, which has been proven wrong scientifically.

But since God/Allah has promised to protect Quran(the last message) from change till the end of the world there is no flaw in it.

So,Mwrkhan, please state ONE scientific error mentioned in Quran like other religious scriptures.Then I will admit your point of view, as I believe God is free of errors.(If some alpha-beta human wrote the Quranic scripture there is bound to be atleast one mistake)

Thanks
Quote:
Originally posted by mwrkhan
Dosadeel, while respecting your faith, interpreting the scriptures in a way that merely conforms with your beliefs and looking for connections between science and what is written in quranic passages is a tactic used by all religious groups. Not a day goes by without us hearing from evangelical christians about biblical prophesy regarding all manner of things - scientific, political or historical. As for physics and religious texts? I can fill an entire library with books that purport to show the connection between modern physics and scripture. Hinduism and other eastern religions are rife with passages which have been interpreted as being "evidence" of divine knowledge of exact physical processes.

How can belief in a creator be anything other than blind superstition? No amount of sophistry can justify this mindset. But, one chooses to believe what one chooses to believe and everybody has that right. However, if religious self-rightousness is not arrogant I would like to know what is.
Edited on, March 26, 2005, 12:53 PM GMT, by nayeem007.
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  #71  
Old March 26, 2005, 08:05 AM
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My comments have been against religion in general and not Islam in particular. Besides, the quran is a religious and not a scientific text. How is it possible to make a scientific refutation of a text that is not scientific to begin with? As I have mentioned, faith is just that - blind adherence to belief - and you are welcome to it. By your logic, if the quran, or any other religious text for that matter, contains all scientific truths, scientific research as we understand it is just a waste of time right? If that is your position, then nothing I will say will have any impact on you. I dont find anything "scientific" in the quran or any religion for that matter.
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  #72  
Old March 26, 2005, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by razabq
you mean plain religious people dontcha spitfire? I don't think I quite qualify to become a fundamentalist Something about deat to infidel or what not
I mean people who can't wear anything except panjabi, allakhalla etc.... for example. There are lots of types.

Edited on, March 26, 2005, 2:10 PM GMT, by Spitfire_x86.
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  #73  
Old March 26, 2005, 10:30 AM
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We need to stop talking about religion. It's just endless bickering that will go nowhere.

But I agree with Mwrkhan. It's your faith bro...Trying to connect science and religious text in my opinion is committing suicide.

We are pulling out verses and relating it to scientific theories that are not even agreed upon by everyone yet. ie. expansion of universe, death of universe and even beginning of universe etc.

Quote:
Mwrkhan, please state ONE scientific error mentioned in Quran like other religious scriptures
This comment is suicide again. What is the first subject that comes up when talking about religion - that's right - evolution. Quran talks about Adamn.

Listen bro - EVOLUTION did happen, happening and will happen. It's no longer Darwin's hypothesis. The amount of evidence supporting evolution is mind- boggling. I can take you to a lab and give you a glimpse of evolution myself. (eventhough it would be on molecular level - I won't be turning an ape into you - sorry )

I have my full faith in God but I think my FAITH would have been stronger had there been no evidence.. i.e. Quran, Bible and all the other text.

By the way - the only way to deal with this is to say.. Adam was evolved (but why one adam though?)

But then how did Hawa come?? Definitely not from Adam's cells as mentioned in the Quran? That's possible though - Perhaps a sign of Cloning here Maybe it's legal!!

Allah Hafez
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  #74  
Old March 26, 2005, 11:23 AM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by al Furqaan

so you do you believe:

killing innocent people is right or wrong?
adultery is right or wrong?
stealing is right or wrong?
lying is right or wrong?

AND FINALLY is helping an old lady across the street right or wrong?
wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, right. \

What is your point?
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  #75  
Old March 26, 2005, 11:36 AM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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Join Date: June 20, 2002
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Posts: 6,069

Quote:
Originally posted by razabq
My beef with Arnab has not been that he professes to be an Atheist - power to him for his choice - but rather the disdainful manner in which he treats the various attributes of our belief in God. I have taken my discussion with him off-line - I suggest you do the same.

Huda hudi atlami korar sujog debar dorkar ki?

Edited on, March 26, 2005, 10:29 AM GMT, by razabq.
Hmm.."disdainful" is a vague, loaded word. And what various attributes?

I think I see a pattern I am familiar with.

First, vague comments after vague comments about what *I* believe are thrown to muddle how other people can perceive my beliefs. Oh Arnab is being "disrespectful", "disdainful", "attacking", "montobbo nishproyojon", blah blah...The putting "Arnab in a negative light" paintjob begins.

Second, when Arnab attempts to clear up the vagueness by trying to engage in a more thorough, clear, open and honest discussion, the familiar "Huda hudi atlami korar sujog debar dorkar ki?" comes in. How convenient, especially when "Atlami" could actually help Arnab in exposing the paintjob mentioned in the first step.

I deem this kind of tactic as subtle psychological manipulation. These are most probably learned unconsciously via "socialization", depending on what society one has grown up in.
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