The Answer To Ashraful

[rudro]

Originally Posted by tglover
The thing that you guys arn't understanding is ... I think Ashraful still *IS* in good form ... but he just can't open!

You throw him down the order he'll be scoring runs again and playing his natural game instantly.

Fine if you guys rekon he should play for Bdesh 'A' for a series I can see where you are coming from ... but I think Bangladesh just need to reshuffle their order around.

I know you guys will critisize me ... but this is what Bangladesh's best ODI team for me:

Javed Omar
Shahriar Nafees
Rajin Saleh
Habibul Bashar (c)
Mohammad Ashraful
Aftab Ahmed
Khaled Mashud (k)
Mohammad Rafique
Mashrafe Mortaza
Abdur Razzak
Shahadat Hossain

Syed Rasel 12th man just misses out ... Farhad Reza too along with Saqibul Hasan .. but they should stay in the squad.

I picked Omar because he has experience and boasts a healthy ODI average. Who CARES if he scores slow ... he only scores slow because usually Bdesh lose 3 wickets in the first 10 overs. For me hes perfect. Bangladesh can't keep on picking 19 year olds ... they need experience.

Syed Rasel just doesn't have the pace for ODIs ... his bowling average is good because he got wickets against Kenya.

Do you want our wheels of development to turn backward?

[Ehsan]

Rudro,
Plz show some respect and edit your post. Tglover is not a Bangladeshi, nor is he involved with any politics, he is simply a tiger fan.

If anyone wants to defend their point, do it logically, no need to show disrespect. And if you can not defend your point in proper way then stay out of the discussion.

Thanks,
Ehsan
- Mod

[tglover]

It was my opinion based on statistics and experience. Thats how teams in Australia, England, New Zealand, South Africa, West Indies, etc are selected ...

sorry if I offended anyone.

[Fazal]

Originally Posted by kabir
And what about the fact that removing him from the team just before WC '07 will demoralize him so bad that it might end his career right there?

Looks like you are more worried about Ash's career than team's performance and need? I think you need to re-evaluate your priorities: team first or Ash first?

A cricketer's life in this level is not "bed of roses". There will be severe competetion and there will be success along with the failures. The realy good players should be able to overcome these hurdle. And players who lacks basic qualities like fighting against odds, will go nowhere. If Ash is that great of a player, then he should be able to handle any kind of failure with positive spin and take it as a motivation. IF he is no good, only then we have to worry about "demoralizing him" and continue to do pampering him like a todler in the day care. But that really will n ot help anyway. We cannot force anything. Its upto Ash to prove that still belongs to BIG LEAGUE.

The problem with Ash and his fans are, he really never faced any competeion while being promoted to the BIG LEAGUE. He was hand picked, he was papmered by his fans and the selectors. He is not ready for to face tany competion for his position.So he play like a care free todler. No worry nor responsibility. when he is asked to show some responsibility, he panics.

Now will he be ready in future? It depends. Its up to Ash and his fans. Let Ash fight for his position like the rest of the players and let him fight for his position in the team-a level ...and let him decide how far he wants to go.

Pampering will not help his career. It will only destroy it. If he is a real deal he should survive. That will be great. If he is no longer a real deal, his career will end.
Too bad.... life goes on. I don't know whats wrong with that?

But please, for the sake our country, for the sake of our national pride, please don't suggest that we should continue to sacrifice one slot to a player who proved again and again that he is uncapable to dela with pressure and learn from his mistake.

[roaring tigerz]

Originally Posted by Fazal
Well if you really want 'constructive criticism', here it is again. I don't know why its so hard to absorb:

"With his current form, Ash should go back to the lower level and regain his form and confidence back. By lower level, I mean team-a and domestic league."

As long as team management and Ash fan try to force the issue and continue to experiment, Ash career will continue to decline. There is no point to try him in the national team in different positions and hope against hope that something miracle will happen. Usually that doesn't happen. If Ash is that talented, let him regains his form back in lower level and then come back to national team. Thats what all players in all nations do. Is it too much to ask from Ash or from his fans?

Many Ash fans tried to make a case why Ash should be tried to open the innings. I told you before and I am telling you now its was a JOKE experiemnt, bound to be failed. Now where are those Ash fans who suggested he should open? Can you please stand up?

And about rmaking fun of Ash? It will not stop if Ash continue to be included in the team and he continue to fail to perform. Beacuse its the team and the real fans, who are suffering for that.

I completely agree that Ashraful's prolonged failure is hurting himself and the Bangladesh team. Saying that, is Ashraful going to be included in the Bangladesh squad for the world cup? If he is, then Ash has to play all the international matches between now and the World Cup.This only makes sense, as the easier opposition would be his chance of getting some big scores and regaining confidence. But if he fails to show any reasonable improvements in the Zimbabwe series, then his exclusion would be inevitable.

[Fazal]

Originally Posted by RazabQ
But then I thought - would dropping him to a lower level accomplish the goal that we seek? Namely help him get his form back? If so, his stint at Rainhill should have done that - for as we have established, 'tis but a "moholla" league that team plays in. Nope - even there he was on and off. When on - awesome - when off, embarrasingly so.

We are not talking about demoting him in Para League, we are talking about demoting him in team-a and playing a lot in domestic league. I hope you see the difference.

btw, if Ash cannot even prove his worth in "moholla" league, what makes you think he will get his form back in the national team, where the competetion is 1000% better and pressure is 100% more? His performance against para league just validate my suspect that may be he is not that great any more. May be we are just wasting our time, by just trying to force something, thats was never meant to be.

Sometimes we are so hyptonized by the so called style and over used word talent, that we forget that, you need more than mere talent to be successful in the highest level. And its called survival capability, the mental strength, the fighting spirit, the hand-eye coordination, the ability to use once's tecnique based on the merit of the ball, the ability to adjust and play based on team's need, etc, etc.

[Sovik]

why do we need to discuss about ashraful. he is the brainless great batsman. he is just fun to watch. and he is going through bad times. and he needs some break from the cricket.

[Tigers_eye]

Originally Posted by billah
We are yet to see the best Ash has to offer. These are his learning years. He should stick to it and should not quit. Although he is presently better suited for the middle order, I think if he was given enough time to adjust as an opener, he would have done well there also. Besides, if he has to compete for a spot in the middle order in the ODIs, the choice should be easy: just drop Bashar.

Ash is ONLY 22.

Agreed with the bold.

On what basis one can make that assumption of given enough time on the opening slot would be fruitful eventually? history? Nope he have no history there. This is just pure speculation.

Dropping Bashar. Yup!! I agree on dropping bashar from the team for sure. Since he is a non-performer too. But I can't agree to replace him there. That spot should be taken by a responsible batsman who is there to perform. Not the one with loads of talent and not perform day-in day-out.

Bottom line is, anyone who averages 20 should not be in the team as a batsmen. That is, no one should be given a free ride. This hurts the team. It is the team that we support not the individuals. We bleed when the team loses. Currently Ash and Bashar are the two weakest links.

[rudro]

Originally Posted by Ehsan
Rudro,
Plz show some respect and edit your post. Tglover is not a Bangladeshi, nor is he involved with any politics, he is simply a tiger fan.
- Mod

Done as suggested! Sorry for the outburst. I think Ashraful's 20 below 20 sequence drove me really crazy!

[Niceman70]

Originally Posted by Fazal
Hmmm... looks like the lower in the bating order he plays, the higher is his Average. In that case why don't we let him play at #12?

funny..i know everyone is tired of him.

[rudro]

Originally Posted by tglover
It was my opinion based on statistics and experience. Thats how teams in Australia, England, New Zealand, South Africa, West Indies, etc are selected ...

sorry if I offended anyone.

My apology to you! The fact that your team included two out-of-form batsmen (Javed and Ash) and excluded two in-forms (Sakib and Farhad) is in no way comparable to any of the teams you mentioned. Even players with names like Sourav, Kaif, Katich, Lehmann, Hayden, Bell had to sit out because of their form. Our Ashraful is hardly comparable to any of these names. He should follow the same fate of 'Hasan Raja".

[Niceman70]

I believe our team will be much stronger once we get rid off basher,masud and ashfool.

[Tigers_eye]

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
...

now i am not expecting ash, to be another jayasuriya, but i think he can still forge a career where he can be the author of 7 or 8 thousand runs at a 35ish average.

The highest Average at any point of his (Jaya) career had an average of 32.66. You say you are not expecting ash to be another Jayasuria but average 35ish? So are you saying he is will better than than Jaya?

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
ash needs to play cricket all the time...and he needs 10-15 innings in both forms of the game at one batting position without moving him around.

How long should we wait for one innings of brilliance (full of luck included) and sacrifice our team results? I agree with you that he needs to keep playing cricket and fix his own problem. Just not in the national side. He can come back when he is fully ready to contribute to the team regularly.

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
part of the reason he has failed, its not just his rashness, but its our collective effort to force him into being a superstar player.

So he is not a superstar player. Thank you for realizing that. Then why give him preferencial treatment? Why does he need to be in the team when he can't perform? Blame it all on the management, but I thought he was given license to kill this tour? Didn't we all want that becuase he wasn't getting runs in #4? Wasn't it said that he was under tremendous pressure at that position? Or I am still dreaming?

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
we need to lock the guy up at #4 or #5 for a year...and forget about him...let him surprise us, for ill or good. then either throw him in the rokon bin or salute him as the player he will be. there is every chance ash will be a huge bust, but there is also a good chance that he could be the superstar we've all been looking for.

Are you listening to yourself? With what can we stick with him? #4 position is the most important position in the batting lineup. Most of the great batsmen came/come at that position for a team. You want our team to play with a player and stick with him even if he can't perform in that position? Moreover, After so many years we have a player in that position who is doing well, the best we have seen from that position so far. And you want to replace him?

I am not going to compare with Tharanga. That would be injustice to Tharanga. I would compare him with Shariar Nafees. He is no where near SN's tempartment. Talent alone can't keep one in the team. Performance is most important thing. Eric Ainge was benched last year wasn't he?

[Tigers_eye]

Originally Posted by kabir
al Furqaan..man I really like you. And you just don't know how much sense you make.

You know our damn problem? We want a SUPERSTAR out of a guy who's 22, played 70 or so matches, and have been experimented like a freakin test mouse.

The reason he became a test mouse was, he could not perform consistantly in any position that he was given. That made the management second guess his approach and was only trying to help the guy to come back in form. Recently Sakib has shown better stability than any of his peers in that position, that is why #4 is not for sale for now.

If for the sake of arguement, if Aftab, Mashrafe, Rafiq wants the #4 position would they be given that position? How about SN? Everyone wants to play at #4? whom do you entertain? Averaging 20 or less can't demand a place at the top order. That is why there have been so many lineup changes.

[Tigers_eye]

Originally Posted by shaoun
ash will be our star player soon inshallah. but he needs to regain his form.

Exactly!! No one can regain form in pressured situation. National team is where the pressure is the most. Let him regain his form elsewhere and come back with a bang. He would be most welcome then.

[Tigers_eye]

Originally Posted by tglover
It was my opinion based on statistics and experience. Thats how teams in Australia, England, New Zealand, South Africa, West Indies, etc are selected ...

Based on statistics Ash can't be in the lineup. Sakib, Forhad, Rana, Rajin all have much better statistics.

Experience matters most in the longer version of the game. In ODI performance matters most. If experience was any major indicator then Steve Waugh wouldn't have been dropped they way he was dropped from ODI.

[sadi]

Originally Posted by Fazal
btw, if Ash cannot even prove his worth in "moholla" league, what makes you think he will get his form back in the national team, where the competetion is 1000% better and pressure is 100% more? His performance against para league just validate my suspect that may be he is not that great any more. May be we are just wasting our time, by just trying to force something, thats was never meant to be.

Exactly my feelings!!! Let him prove his worth in domestic cricket and then come back. I guess he understands that and trying to regain his form playing corporate league. Giving free rides like this wouldn't make good examples for the upcoming youngsters. They need to know this is the place where you need to perform consistently to survive. I am pretty sure Ash will find his form sooner or later and come back stronger. All he needs is to stay out of limelight and work things out with his batting and temperament.

[Tigers_eye]

Originally Posted by roaring tigerz
I completely agree that Ashraful's prolonged failure is hurting himself and the Bangladesh team. Saying that, is Ashraful going to be included in the Bangladesh squad for the world cup? If he is, then Ash has to play all the international matches between now and the World Cup.This only makes sense, as the easier opposition would be his chance of getting some big scores and regaining confidence. But if he fails to show any reasonable improvements in the Zimbabwe series, then his exclusion would be inevitable.

I do not understand this logic at all. Everything is based on "if". "If he fails" well he has been failing. So there is a better chance for him to fail. To reword the previous line, "There is a certainty that he would not be consistant enough to our liking." When something don't work we try to fix it/replace it. Ash at the opening, middle order, top order is not working. The place of fixing must be outside the national team.

The agruement of keeping him in and wither the storm, takes the opportunities away from others who may be the replacement at the world cup.

[reyme]

Have you heard of playing a goaltender/goalkeeper in a striker position in soccer? No. Thats because everybody has a special skill for a certain position. For Ashraful, he is a middle order batsman who is also a part time leg spinner.

Since his bowling is not that effective, he dont bowl anymore. Since he fails consistently in the middle in his desired position of #4 or #5 he was given chances in all other batting positions. Based on his performance for the last 6 months he may not deserve a position even in the A team let alone in the national team.

[sadi]

Originally Posted by reyme
Have you heard of playing a goaltender/goalkeeper in a striker position in soccer? No. Thats because everybody has a special skill for a certain position. For Ashraful, he is a middle order batsman who is also a part time leg spinner.

Let me ask you the same question. Have you ever heard on any gooalkeeper succeeding in striker position in soccer? No right. But in cricket, many middle order batsmen did go for the opening in odis and succeed. I am sure I don't have to give you the names. So, I don't think its the right analogy here.

The fact is, Ash is not in form. For example, the game against Srilanka, he did play the first ten overs and got set. Doesn't matter whether you are an opener or a middle order batsman, if you get out once you are set its your fault most of the time. Don't blame the position where he is batting. You can bat at number 4 and face the third ball of the game. That doesn't mean you stop playing. My point is after he got set and the first powerplay was already gone, he was batting just like any other number 4 batsman. The problem remains that he is not in form and has some temperament issue. He needs to fix that first before playing for the national team again. This is not the place where you fix your problem. This is where you perform.

[Kabir]

Originally Posted by Fazal
Looks like you are more worried about Ash's career than team's performance and need? I think you need to re-evaluate your priorities: team first or Ash first?

With this kind of view, our team management can NEVER create a team that's dynamic, challenging, and most importantly, a team that is motivated to play well. If you can't address individual player's needs, you can't address the needs of a team as a whole.

A cricketer's life in this level is not "bed of roses". ...
If Ash is that great of a player, then he should be able to handle any kind of failure with positive spin and take it as a motivation. ...

I don't see your point here. Yes their life at this level is not a "bed of roses". But at the same time, their life at this level means they should be able to challenge. But being able to challenge doesn't always mean scoring high? Can you show me 5 playrs any team that can play on any day in any condition with 100% success?

The problem with Ash and his fans are, he really never faced any competeion while being promoted to the BIG LEAGUE. He was hand picked, he was papmered by his fans and the selectors.

I agree with this. He has been given the position, rather than him working his way up. That's not his fault...he has been pampered by the management. Having said this, I don't mean to say that he shouldn't be blamed. I guess I should've mentioned this earlier, but I am NOT an Ash fan. I am talking about it from a complete philosophical perspective. All I'm trying to argue is that, the MANAGEMENT need to share the blames...and your solution will demoralize a player, and not do any good for the country.

But please, for the sake our country, for the sake of our national pride, please don't suggest that we should continue to sacrifice one slot to a player who proved again and again that he is uncapable to dela with pressure and learn from his mistake.

National pride? In cricket? I don't see your point here either. And if you're saying this, then I guess we need to change MOST players from our team, if not all. Can you name 5 members in our current team that have performed well constantly for 70+ matches? And finally, if you have someone better to take his position and who has demonstrated or plausible capabilities of doing better, then suggest some names.

I guess you dont' understand my view point. Tali ek hathe baje na. All I'm trying to say is, do not demoralize a player, and if you do, then you can pretty much hope that other players in the team are going to share similar feelings about their position in the team. I don't mean to say I don't want change. I mean to say, change only when you need and when you can.

[reyme]

Sadi, the big picture is, yes its the form(goaltender). it is known fact by now that Ash is out of form. So why force or experiment him in all different positions, specially since he cant even produce in the practice matches? He failed 2 practice matches miserably and once with a duck? Instead of playing Ashraful, if they could have played some inexperienced but in form player, chances are BD would be still playing the championship chicket.

I think many people forgot the fact the team is ahead of Ashraful. It is his cause that is hurting the national interes.

[Kabir]

Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
The reason he became a test mouse was, he could not perform consistantly in any position that he was given.

Can you show any player in our team that has performed constantly for 70+ matches?

Bhai...I mentioned earlier that I'm not an Ash fan. I'm a BD team fan. And I think before the team management learns more about management, they can't create better players. In that way, if Allah maaf koruk SN doesn't perform 10 matches in a row, you'll drop him?

[sadi]

Originally Posted by reyme
I think many people forgot the fact the team is ahead of Ashraful. It is his cause that is hurting the national interes.

I guess thats the bottom line and I agree with you on that. If we have a player who is producing better results in number 4, then I am sorry but Ash has to do either of these two. Either he has to outperform him or find another spot. That spot maybe well outside the team if he can't produce.

[Fazal]

Originally Posted by kabir
With this kind of view, our team management can NEVER create a team that's dynamic, challenging, and most importantly, a team that is motivated to play well. If you can't address individual player's needs, you can't address the needs of a team as a whole.

Yes but it doesn't mean that some player will continue to get special treatment at the cost of other palyers. And you think this double standard will create "a dynamic, challenging, and most importantly, a team that is motivated to play well"? . What are we agruing here? Do you understand what you are preaching here? One set of standard for Ash and another set of standard for the rest?

Originally Posted by kabir
Can you show me 5 playrs any team that can play on any day in any condition with 100% success?

What you are talking about? Who is talking about 100% success here? Forget about 100% success. What we are expecting from Ash is 25% success. Is it too much to ask for? After playing 70+ ODI he has an ave of 19 something and its still going downword.

Originally Posted by kabir
National pride? In cricket? I don't see your point here either. And if you're saying this, then I guess we need to change MOST players from our team, if not all.

Thats the problem here. We are giving too many times FREE DUDU BHATU to Ash, and that is costing our team. We cannot affort to do that. National team is not for Free DUDU BHATU for anyone. Its in team-a where you get Free Dudu Bahtu. The team is bleeding for that. We are loosing for that against teams like ZIM and other. And there comes the issue about our goal, priority and national pride.

Based on current performance only two batsman is under performing and those are Ash and Bashar. They are currently the few remaining dead woods in our team. I don't see your point that MOST players from our team needs to be changed. In future may be, but not now.

Originally Posted by kabir
Can you name 5 members in our current team that have performed well constantly for 70+ matches?

No I can't and I shouldn't. Any batsman below an average of 20 DONT deserve to play 70+ games for their national team. And there lies the problem, I hope understand that. That's just tell that Ash is getting FREE DUDU BAHTU for too long. he doesn't deserve that, No player should get that.

Originally Posted by kabir
And finally, if you have someone better to take his position and who has demonstrated or plausible capabilities of doing better, then suggest some names.

Yes I can.

For opening: Instead of Ash I would try Mehrab or even Rajin. Mehrab proved in team-a that is deserve a chance.

For #3: Instead of Ash, I would choose Aftab. he proved he is better solution than Ash. His current performance proves that.

For #4: I would continue to Select Sakib. he proved he is more reliable and deserve more chance.

For #5: I would select out of form Bashar instead. he have more chance to help the team than Ash. Plus he is the captain so we cannot ignore that he WILL play, whether we like it or not.

For #6: Farhad. By performing more as a batsman he proved he deserve more chance. He may not be the final solution, but certainly he made a case that he need to be tried more.

For #7: Rafique
For #8: Its Mashrafee
For #9: Its Razzak

Plus Sadat and Mushfiq is just waiting in the wings.



So currently there is no place Ash unless he can improve his form.