The Answer To Ashraful

[Tigers_eye]

Originally Posted by kabir
Can you show any player in our team that has performed constantly for 70+ matches?

You have misunderstood me. The opportunity he had, he could not capitalize for every position he played. 70+ in 1,3,4, and 5 is almost 15+ tries per position. Now do a search how many players we have who played 15+ matches at one position and had a better run. That would make Ash a mere mortal not the super star that many tend to think.

Originally Posted by kabir
Bhai...I mentioned earlier that I'm not an Ash fan. I'm a BD team fan. And I think before the team management learns more about management, they can't create better players. In that way, if Allah maaf koruk SN doesn't perform 10 matches in a row, you'll drop him?

Team management is at fault in including an off-form player for so long in the team. Any team will be hard pressed to include an off form player except Bangladesh. It seems for few players performance is not the criteria to be in the team. Now is the time for the management to keep Ash on the sideline and give others opportunity so that we can see what other options we have.

It is not about being an Ash fan or not. I loved his several controlled innings more than his dum darakka 94(42). He doesnot care even Murali which can only be said for a handful. Having said that I have no problem of him being in the lineup as long as he is performing. 20 Average in the top order is not performing. Those who are hovering around that number are being switched from one place to another. If SN has 10 innings with a single digit score yes, I and you all will ask him to sit out. He himself should sit out and sort things out if that ever happens.

[6alltheway]

if ash shud be dropped than so shud basher coz his even worse.

let them both play county cricket..

[sadi]

Originally Posted by 6alltheway
if ash shud be dropped than so shud basher coz his even worse.

let them both play county cricket..

Whos gonna take them?

[SS]

I think Ash need to change his priority. His 'position' in the team. Like Pathan did with the bat, he should do it with his other goodies, his wrist spin. Wrist spinners get extra advantages sometimes and also could do varieties, ofcourse depend on the spinner. Flipper, googly, looping, slider, and more tricks.
Why not we send to him to Mr. Ghani, or Kumble, or to Abdul Kadir, for training so that he can revive that and use it in our team. We really need a good leggie.
we already have SLA or chinamen..now we need a wrist spinner and he can utilize that and serve the team with that.

[Ehsan]

Originally Posted by SS
I think Ash need to change his priority. His 'position' in the team. Like Pathan did with the bat, he should do it with his other goodies, his wrist spin. Wrist spinners get extra advantages sometimes and also could do varieties, ofcourse depend on the spinner.

Agree! I mean I would not mind a player who is taking 2-3 wickets every game and scoring runs at 20-30 avg with few big knocks every year.

[imran78]

Originally Posted by Fazal
"With his current form, Ash should go back to the lower level and regain his form and confidence back. By lower level, I mean team-a and domestic league."

completely agree. ash is totally out of form and talent doesn't count for much in the international arena if you can't deliver it consistently. he should be demoted to the A-team and earn his way back to the national team. if he is really so talented it shouldnt take long for him to prove his superiority over other A-team bowlers.

[Miraz]

WOW!! lots of discussion.

Well, I have to defend why Ashraful is still reqd. in national team and why team management have to share the major blame for current poor run of Ashraful.

Was busy for the last few days for the first year PhD transfer viva. At last everything ended with a good tone.

Ashraful is still the best batsman in our side and we need him badly in WC 2007 to make any impact in the tournament.

Everyone is trying to write Ashraful off at the expense of some new players who are yet to prove their mettle against quality opponents and most importantly in different wicket conditions. We know the capability of Ashraful and his ability to play in different countries and against different oppositions. Now, we need Ashraful to perform to his potential. Shuffling him with every batting position like gunieapig will never help to bring out the best from Ashraful. Ashraful's position in the team shoudl be fixed for at least 20-30 innings. He should be allowed to play without any pressure.

We all should keep in mind, we don't need Ashraful to win matches against Zim/Kenya blocks, but to win matches against big guns we need the contribution from Ashraful. People who are very much willing to send Ashraful out of the team please give me some examples where we won matches (except Zim/Kenya) without significant contribution from Ashraful.

[sensible]

I think Fazal made a very good and sensible () proposal for accomodating Ash in the team. Cricket is a team game after all. So we cannot affors to make a team of 10 players and let Ash have the final place in the team even when he doesn't deserve it. Moreover, it's not fair to other players in Bangladesh, who may be not as "talented" as Ash. In fact, how can anybody else prove his worth or talent, if not given a chance to play for the national team?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a Ash hater. When I was watching the Champions Trophy, I was thinking that only if Ash or any other player could bat with SN, Bangladesh would have been playing the final round in CT. But that was just wishfull thinking. Anyway, I'm not crazy for him either. The guy obviously lacks form, and that is the case for a loooooooooooooooooooooong time (I don't think I have added enough os to be long enough!). Then why don't we give him a chance to get his confidence back by playing for the A team or Dhaka League. He went to play for Rainhill and scored a double century! That was a great news until we saw the video of the game. It brought back the memory of Bangladesh winning the Dana and Gothia Cups. Ash's time will be better spent in Dhaka League.

Bottom line is, with his current form, Ash doesn't deserve to be in the team. This statement has nothing to do with his level of talent. if we keep letting him play in this situation, may be he'll score a 100 once every 50 match. But that really doesn't prove anything. I feel sorry for him whe he come out to bat these days. If you look at his eyes, he looks like a mentally unbalanced person, no clue what he should be doing. Lets forgive the guy and give him another chance by dropping him off the team and ask him to play in the domestic cricket, include him in the A team. Even better if we make him the captain of A team. That way, we can prepare him to take over when Bash leaves. God knows, we don't have anybody for that position right now.

[sensible]

Originally Posted by Miraz
Everyone is trying to write Ashraful off at the expense of some new players

This is where Ash fans are wrong. NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE is trying to write him off. I can bet every penny on the fact that if he gets his form back, if he scores runs and does so consistently, no one will be happier than I am. I think Fazal and all others arguing for him to play the domestic league would be too.

[Miraz]

Originally Posted by sensible
This is where Ash fans are wrong. NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE is trying to write him off. I can bet every penny on the fact that if he gets his form back, if he scores runs and does so consistently, no one will be happier than I am. I think Fazal and all others arguing for him to play the domestic league would be too.

Throwing him out of the team or shuffling him in every possible position is no way beneficial to get his form back. You have to admit Fazal and others are justifying Ash's exclusion as they beleive right at the moment better alternatives are avialable. This is a very premature attitude. We are trying to get rid of a proven performer at the expense of some young talents, which may also create some unnecessary pressure on them.

[DotBall]

Originally Posted by billah
I think it would be poor judgement to "forget him & move on" so early in his career. I would like to name another top batsman of the world, who did not have a great beginning: The "Marauding" Jaysuria. Look how far he has gone. He did most of it after resurrecting his career, at a more mature age.

One of the reason Jayasuriya kept playing for Srilanka was that his Test Avg. was the following:

After 5 games: 50.8
After 10 games: 40.27
After 20 games: 33.84
After 50 games: 41.69
After 105 games: 41.12

Ashraful's Test avg:

After 5 games: 23.44
After 10 games: 22.38
After 25 games: 25.23
After 33 games: 24.37

Jayasuriya was at least performing consistently in Test and his talent was ensuring enough to Sri Lankan cricket to keep faith in him in ODIs.

Ashraful has the talent and technique but he is so lost up there that he is a liability for BD team. He needs to get back to the basic and shake off the stupidity. He needs to go back to domestic cricket and sort things out.

[sensible]

Sorry to disagree with you. I don't think that what we are trying to say. I know Ash is a very good player and as I have told earlier, no one will be happier than I'm if Ash starts performing. But tagging along with the team and moving him along the batting order is not going to help him. You have to admit that his confidence level is at the rock bottom. We need to give him time to regain his confidence first and the best way to do that is to play for the A team and domestic cricket. Playing against difficult opponents is not going to help him, no matter how long we keep him there. He is like the gold-egg laying goose, we need to nurture him with care. The other point is, he needs to understand that the team needs his service consistenly. Playing one match and then going to hibernate is not what we need from him.

[sadi]

Originally Posted by Miraz
You have to admit Fazal and others are justifying Ash's exclusion as they beleive right at the moment better alternatives are avialable. This is a very premature attitude. We are trying to get rid of a proven performer at the expense of some young talents, which may also create some unnecessary pressure on them.

If I am not mistaken Mirazbhai, you were the one who was rooting for Mushfiq against Pilot for the same reason. Why double standard? I mean I understand Ash is not old like Pilot but the idea remains the same. You gotta perform to stay in the team. Also, I understand what you said about his contribution in wins against big teams. But does that give him the license to stay in the team for next 10-20 games even if he doesn't perform? Just because "Jodi laiga jay"? We all will be more than happy to see him perform and be what he can be but right now, its better for both him and the bangladesh team to have him on the sidelines to work on his batting.

[Kabir]

Originally Posted by Miraz
WOW!! lots of discussion.

Well, I have to defend why Ashraful is still reqd. in national team and why team management have to share the major blame for current poor run of Ashraful.

Was busy for the last few days for the first year PhD transfer viva. At last everything ended with a good tone.

Ashraful is still the best batsman in our side and we need him badly in WC 2007 to make any impact in the tournament.

Everyone is trying to write Ashraful off at the expense of some new players who are yet to prove their mettle against quality opponents and most importantly in different wicket conditions. We know the capability of Ashraful and his ability to play in different countries and against different oppositions. Now, we need Ashraful to perform to his potential. Shuffling him with every batting position like gunieapig will never help to bring out the best from Ashraful. Ashraful's position in the team shoudl be fixed for at least 20-30 innings. He should be allowed to play without any pressure.

We all should keep in mind, we don't need Ashraful to win matches against Zim/Kenya blocks, but to win matches against big guns we need the contribution from Ashraful. People who are very much willing to send Ashraful out of the team please give me some examples where we won matches (except Zim/Kenya) without significant contribution from Ashraful.

Miraz. I guess you've explained it better than I did. I have been trying to get this msg across since I first posted in this thread.

You being in ur PHD will know about it...as I learnt it around the same level too. And that is, if management fails to motivate people well, they end up de-motivating them. That's what has happened with Ashraful.

I'm not a fan of Ashraful. But just like you and I said, treating him like a testmouse or a gunieapig will NOT solve the problem.

[PoorFan]

Originally Posted by Miraz
Well, I have to defend why Ashraful is still reqd. in national team and why team management have to share the major blame for current poor run of Ashraful.

Cant agree, he is consistently inconsistent in every position he played. no matter whether he is / was in form or not, he got out mostly playing bad shot. No body changed his position until he failed continuously in a certain position. It's not even demand any farther explanation, check it by yourself if you need.

Ashraful is still the best batsman in our side and we need him badly in WC 2007 to make any impact in the tournament.

Ashraful is still the best in TERM of BD cricket history, not in average nor in current form. Not sure whether we need 'current Ash', but we need 'in form' Ashraful, and exactly same goes with other players as well, to MAKE any impact in WC 2007. No need to put all money on Ash for that matter.

Everyone is trying to write Ashraful off at the expense of some new players who are yet to prove their mettle against quality opponents and most importantly in different wicket conditions. We know the capability of Ashraful and his ability to play in different countries and against different oppositions. Now, we need Ashraful to perform to his potential. Shuffling him with every batting position like gunieapig will never help to bring out the best from Ashraful. Ashraful's position in the team shoudl be fixed for at least 20-30 innings. He should be allowed to play without any pressure.

Every one trying to write off Ash at the 'cost' of his own performance, and some new players who are yet to prove their mettle against quality opponents, are in the team at the 'expense' of their own current 'performance', be it only few matches but they deserve it, better than Ash did in his early stage. So it's Ash who is responsible for his downfall, and credit to those new who managed to be called in the team.

Shuffling him ( Ash ) with every batting position like 'gunieapig'?? Well I thought you are one of them who were screaming for Ash to open changing his position from #4! besides who even dare to treat him as 'gunieapig' if he was serving up to his merit in the first place? You guys would be the first to eat up management's head if it was the fact what you just said. And tell me WHY it has to be 'at least 20-30 innings'?! why not 'at least 90-99 innings'?! what is the logic / math you find here to recognize Ash's 'in form' or 'out form' in a position? why it only has to be the national team to regain one's form back? Why specially in Ahs's case? What if he playes 1 or 2 50+ innings in between, is that mean he is 'in form' and he has to be in the team for that?

We all should keep in mind, we don't need Ashraful to win matches against Zim/Kenya blocks, but to win matches against big guns we need the contribution from Ashraful. People who are very much willing to send Ashraful out of the team please give me some examples where we won matches (except Zim/Kenya) without significant contribution from Ashraful.

Not at all! you guys should keep in mind that we don't need 'irresponsible' players, who can play 'fluke' innings once upon a time, but plays responsible and consistence against any big gun. People who cant believe a win without Ash should make a team full of Ash or a team with Ash, Nafis, Tamim, Aftab, Rokon, Alok, Tushar and few more alike, win will be all over the field if Ash was the only real cause for win.

[PoorFan]

Btw, as I said before, Ash should stay with the team within #12 to #14, soon will replace any batsman when it's needed.

[cricket_dorshok]

Originally Posted by Miraz
Ashraful is still the best batsman in our side.

I don't know how do you define "the best". A batsman has been playing international cricket for 5 years with average 19.87 (even our the worst batsman K Mashud has average 22.03) is the best in your definiton!!!

Originally Posted by Miraz

We all should keep in mind, we don't need Ashraful to win matches against Zim/Kenya blocks, but to win matches against big guns we need the contribution from Ashraful. People who are very much willing to send Ashraful out of the team please give me some examples where we won matches (except Zim/Kenya) without significant contribution from Ashraful.

We have won so far three (IND, AUS, SL) matches against big guns. With full respect to our achivements, I like to just mention that IND did not play with full strength (we know what happened in the 3rd ODI), and SL was without Vaas, Muruli. Against IND, Ash was the 3rd highest scorrer 28 (after Aftab 67 and Mashrafee 31), against SL though Ash was the highest scorer, few other batsmen (JO, Bashar, Aftab) also contributed equally, and yes against Aus he played the major role (we know also Bashar 47 and Aftab's cool headed finishing). I am not discredited his contribution rather I salute for that. For one win in every 78 matches (though not sure but for the sake of statistical probability), we need to keep him in the team! Do you really think it is justifiable? Why don't you think those young guys who are coming to the national side after succeding a series of challenge (U-17,U-19, BD-A, domestic cricket, etc.) will be able to deliver better than this old poor guy. why don't you think (for example) Sakib will play similar or even better innings against big guns regularly what he played against SL if he is given opportunity. For the sake of our cricket, for the betterment of our cricket, shouldn't we picked the best inform eleven instead of hoping a miracle once in 78 matces?

[Hasib]

HAHAHAHAHA

A few months ago i said Ashraful should come lower down the order...and how people flamed and make fun of me...

Thanks for pointing this out.

[fy288]

Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
Exactly!! No one can regain form in pressured situation. National team is where the pressure is the most. Let him regain his form elsewhere and come back with a bang. He would be most welcome then.

go else.. play in better leagues abroad. some one contact animul islam 2 sort ash a contract in australia!!

he will definetly come back with a bang if he went down under rather than play in liverpool league in england. they HOSTILE down there in aus!!!

[Fazal]

Originally Posted by PoorFan

Shuffling him ( Ash ) with every batting position like 'gunieapig'?? Well I thought you are one of them who were screaming for Ash to open changing his position from #4! besides who even dare to treat him as 'gunieapig' if he was serving up to his merit in the first place? You guys would be the first to eat up management's head if it was the fact what you just said.

. There were 22 votes (to be exact) that suggested the management should try Ash in the Opening Slot. Now instead of admiting their mistake, they want management's head instead. This double Standard by the Ash fans is nothing new. They don't admit their own mistake, but try to blame someone else, the same strategy they use for Ash's failure. Its always someone's else fault. They don't realize how they are pretty much prematurely killing this young man's career, by pampering him.

And when people point it out, and suggest some constructive, reasonable and fair (to all players) suggestion, they are branded as Ash Hater. .

If this stubborn Ash experiment fails, he will not drag his own career, he will take some of the selectors and the coach along with him.

We all want Ash in our team, but only when/if he is in his best of form, and only when he can prove that he can handle day in day out the pressure of playing for the national team. And team-a is the place where he regain his form and confidence back. I don't know why its so hard for some people to understand. But then again, we are not talking about any regular fans here, we are talking about dedicated Ash fans here.

[Miraz]

Originally Posted by sadi
If I am not mistaken Mirazbhai, you were the one who was rooting for Mushfiq against Pilot for the same reason. Why double standard? I mean I understand Ash is not old like Pilot but the idea remains the same. You gotta perform to stay in the team. Also, I understand what you said about his contribution in wins against big teams. But does that give him the license to stay in the team for next 10-20 games even if he doesn't perform? Just because "Jodi laiga jay"? We all will be more than happy to see him perform and be what he can be but right now, its better for both him and the bangladesh team to have him on the sidelines to work on his batting.

Sadi bhai, no double standard. The situation of Ashraful and Pilot is no way same. We know the capability of Mashud as a batsman. He will hang around for a while woith a strike rate of around 40-50 and will ensure a honorable defeat. And I had a loads of discussion about Pilot and his usefulness. We are trying to replace Pilot with a much better batsman and I have got the confidence about his keeping. Pilot is no way a match winner for Bangladesh.

On the other hand, Ashraful is a proven match winner. We cannot simply replace him because we think some new boys might perform better against good oppositions.

[cricket_dorshok]

Originally Posted by Miraz
On the other hand, Ashraful is a proven match winner.

What a pitty!!! One win in every 78 (#67) matches branded someone a match winner.

Originally Posted by Miraz
We cannot simply replace him because we think some new boys might perform better against good oppositions.

Not thinking, they are performing

[cricket_dorshok]

Originally Posted by Miraz
On the other hand, Ashraful is a proven match winner.

What a pitty!!! One win in every 78 (#67) matches branded someone a match winner.

Originally Posted by Miraz
We cannot simply replace him because we think some new boys might perform better against good oppositions.

Not thinking, they are performing whoever the oppositions
BTW, how could you be sure that those who can't perfrom even against weaker opponents will perform against stronger one. In addition, he already proved his off form regardless the opponents, didn't he?

[Miraz]

Originally Posted by PoorFan

Cant agree, he is consistently inconsistent in every position he played. no matter whether he is / was in form or not, he got out mostly playing bad shot. No body changed his position until he failed continuously in a certain position. It's not even demand any farther explanation, check it by yourself if you need.

Poorfan, I think you should check first before coming after me. What do you mean by consistently failing?? Ash as a number 4 batsman scored 570 runs with an average of 25.90. Not great true but that includes three match winning innings against top oppositions and is better trhann his career average. In that position he has got some single didgit score but maxim two to three innings in a row and then he came back with some good innings. So, why he was shuffled to no. 3, 5 and then finally no 1 by the team managment?? We have very little patience and that's clear from your viewpoint?

For your information have look at the stat.

Originally Posted by PoorFan
Shuffling him ( Ash ) with every batting position like 'gunieapig'?? Well I thought you are one of them who were screaming for Ash to open changing his position from #4! besides who even dare to treat him as 'gunieapig' if he was serving up to his merit in the first place? You guys would be the first to eat up management's head if it was the fact what you just said. And tell me WHY it has to be 'at least 20-30 innings'?! why not 'at least 90-99 innings'?! what is the logic / math you find here to recognize Ash's 'in form' or 'out form' in a position? why it only has to be the national team to regain one's form back? Why specially in Ahs's case? What if he playes 1 or 2 50+ innings in between, is that mean he is 'in form' and he has to be in the team for that?

You got it wrong!! I was not screaming to bring Ashraful as opener. I admit I agreed with the decision. Agreement with a decision does not make a decision right. This is not the only case, Ashraful was shuffled without any partcular vision and that rocked Ashraful's confidence. For the bold part, I really not getting enough inspiration to clarify. I doubt whether you have watched international cricket for a long time or not? You can find plenty of examples in other countries where they had their patience and waited for the player to get back in form. They never threw a player out of the team to regain the form. In that case Atapattu, Jayasurya, Gilchrist, Gibbs would have been history now.

Originally Posted by PoorFan
Every one trying to write off Ash at the 'cost' of his own performance, and some new players who are yet to prove their mettle against quality opponents, are in the team at the 'expense' of their own current 'performance', be it only few matches but they deserve it, better than Ash did in his early stage. So it's Ash who is responsible for his downfall, and credit to those new who managed to be called in the team.

Yes, its Ashraful who is not performing and the team management is not helping that cause. Its easy to remove head for headache and that's what you people are crying!!

Originally Posted by PoorFan
Not at all! you guys should keep in mind that we don't need 'irresponsible' players, who can play 'fluke' innings once upon a time, but plays responsible and consistence against any big gun. People who cant believe a win without Ash should make a team full of Ash or a team with Ash, Nafis, Tamim, Aftab, Rokon, Alok, Tushar and few more alike, win will be all over the field if Ash was the only real cause for win.

Again, a very immature statement. Have you watched the innings of Ashraful against India, Srilanka, England and Australia. I think no cricket expert in the world can brand them fluke innings. He is inconsistent but when he plays he is simply extra ordinary.

[Miraz]

Originally Posted by cricket_dorshok
What a pitty!!! One win in every 78 (#67) matches branded someone a match winner.

Refresh your memory. You will find the contribution of Ashraful in our wins. Please have a memory of a bit long period.

Originally Posted by cricket_dorshok
Not thinking, they are performing whoever the oppositions

Originally Posted by cricket_dorshok
BTW, how could you be sure that those who can't perfrom even against weaker opponents will perform against stronger one. In addition, he already proved his off form regardless the opponents, didn't he?

I am a high vocal for the young players like Sakib, Mehrab Jr., Farhad, Mushfiq. Read my previous posts in other thread you will get that information easily. I am no way against their inclusion in the team. But, I am against including all youngstars at the expense of players like Ashraful, Aftab, Bashar or Rafique.

get me right and then argue.