No room for apologists of 1971....

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
however, by freedom handed to us, i meant that without indian intervention (not to be confused with "help" or "aid") we would still probably be a downtrodden East Pakistan, or been forced to give up like the tamil tigers due to the exorbitant slaughter of our own. i did not mean to downplay at all the sacrifices made by millions of freedom fighters and civilians in the struggle in any way shape or form, and i apoligize if i have offended or hurt anyone's sentiments regarding this issue.

Asaad my brother, that's an idea often espoused by ex-Razakars and in cocktail party banter by folks making small talk and talking out of their @$$. Here are the facts, not as I see them but the facts themselves according to military historians in Bangladesh, Pakistan, India and the US, not to mention journos from Bangladesh, India, US, UK and France at the time ...

> An overwhelming majority of rural Bangladesh, where most of our people lived at the time, was liberated by October, also by several commanders taking very little Indian aid. They are: Manzoor (RIP), Taher (RIP), Jalil (RIP), Ziauddin, Ziaur Rahman (RIP), AK Khandakar, Zaman, Siraj Sikdar (RIP), Quader Siddiqui, CR Datta, Badal and Alam among other, smaller bands of freedom fighters.

> This was inevitable as the criminal Paki Army had no counterinsurgency capability and was fighting a conventional war in a country they helped underdevelop through exploitation. Poor infrastructure in general and literally no roads to take theirs tanks and heavy weaponry to the vast interior of our country. Simply put, they were sitting ducks on our so called national highways waiting to be ambushed. Whenever they ventured into the interior, they risked getting shot at.

> So the criminal Paki army withdraw into fortified positions in our "major cities" including DHQs and "prominent" towns such as Feni, Sunamganj, Narail etc. There they, and their Islamo Political (Jamaat and Muslim League) and pro Bhutto's PPP allies organized torture chambers and death squads to wage genocide against our general population in the name of National/Islamic "unity" and "purification". Since they were unable to find Muktibahini most of the times, they indulged in documented mass killings, detention and torture, systematic rape where these Salafist/Maududi Mullahs served as pimps, and brigandage.

> The Indians, irrespective of whatever "hidden" motive their powerful political elite may have had, directly aided our refugees, our Government in Exile led by the great Tajuddin Ahmed (RIP), and the international effort to create support for our cause. They also provided weapons and training to Muktibahini facilities effectively organized and coordinated by Khaled Musharraf (RIP). In addition to all that, they hampered and mitigated Paki reinforcement efforts over their territorial waters and air. Later many of their soldiers risked and gave their lives and limbs for us cause. Again the political circumstances do not change the fact for individuals and families still living with the net result.

> Anyway, this critical clogging of their supply lines and the unfamiliar Monsoon season made the quick Paki defeat inevitable to everyone who witnessed what they were doing. They and their allies became more desperate and intensified their crimes against the Bangladeshi people. So Tajuddin asked the Indians to intervene. The equation was simple, the shortest route to victory would save literally tens and millions of lives. That's what they did, and no matter what the political agenda of the Indian government may have been, they helped save tens of millions of people from death, rape and torture, period. They left after their mission was accomplished and our country was free of occupation forces, save a few significant border villages they continue to occupy illegally.

I humbly suggest instead of listening to whomever you've been listening to, dig into the widely available archives and be informed. US Library of Congress, Google, and Wiki are all good places to find more detailed links.

Please do not compare LTTE, ETA, Taliban, or PKK to Muktibahini. That's anti-historical and silly. Generalized semantics and polemics do not blur the differences at all. Neither does the crimes of your oppressor. According reputable and independent human rights reports, my only standard when assessing political conflicts, these are terrorist organizations engaged in attacks against non combatants and they do not tolerate internal dissent. They also reject the relatively democratic framework offered in Sri Lanka, Spain, Afghanistan, post Musharraf Pakistan and Turkey. They also, because of their tendency to terrorize their own population, do not enjoy the kind of popular support necessary to successfully sustain their cause. The wrongs of your enemies do not make your own wrongs less wrong or right. Righteousness is far more sustainable than reaction and reactionary violence. Real moral high ground is essential to sustainable political success, as exemplified by MLK and the American Civil Rights movement. "Biting the dog" is always counterproductive in the log run. Time to evolve.

Muktibahini and the late Tajuddin (RIP) Government in Exile was democratic and tolerated internal dissent. They also did not do any of the things LTTE has done over the years. Things such as suicide bombings and other attacks on non combatants supplemented by lynching fellow Tamils who disagreed with them. Then there's the ethnic cleansing of the Sinhalese and Muslims from the Jaffna region.

Unlike the LTTE we also didn't have a democratic framework to work with. Pakis denied us our legitimate rights, won through free and fair elections twice (Jukto Front and AL, not BAL at that time), and responded with repeated martial law and finally "Operation Searchlight". Interestingly enough, because of this militarist culture, they destroyed most of their civil organizations and become a dysfunctional state. As a result of the ISI's alliance with Maududi/Salafist political organizations forged during Yahiya and enhanced during the Afghan war of resistance against the Soviets, they've created a Frankenstein they're battling at the moment.

GOD is Omniscient, Omnipotent and Just. He transcends human reason, emotions, attributes, expressions and imagery. He guarantees victory to the righteous who willfully and without sociocultural and psychopolitical coercion, endeavor to maintain and enhance his/her personal covenant with Him. Sincere in intent and free of the dark emotions that may cloud our clear assessments. There's a difference between "being righteous" and "believing yourself to be righteous", wearing that delusion like the worst sort of vanity, and killing in GOD's name by actually speaking for Him and putting words in His mouth. Kill, coerce and impose. So much for "no compulsion in religion" and "willful submission". Astagferullah!

[Neel Here]

very nice post Sohel NR!

[Russell2k7]

Originally Posted by Sohel NR
Asaad my brother, that's an idea often espoused by ex-Razakars and in cocktail party banter by folks making small talk and talking out of their @$$. Here are the facts, not as I see them but the facts themselves according to military historians in Bangladesh, Pakistan, India and the US, not to mention journos from Bangladesh, India, US, UK and France at the time ...
....
....
...

I highly doubt those Paki armies in 1971 were Muslims. They were thugs and criminals. They gotten what they deserve. What I want to know is that is it true Sheikh Mujib told Banglis to fight with lattis?

Nevertheless, Pakistan is one of the strongest military in the world and currently Bangladesh's ally.

[Purbasha T]

Originally Posted by Russell2k7
I highly doubt those Paki armies in 1971 were Muslims. They were thugs and criminals. They gotten what they deserve. What I want to know is that is it true Sheikh Mujib told Banglis to fight with lattis?

Nevertheless, Pakistan is one of the strongest military in the world and currently Bangladesh's ally.

He asked everyone to come out and face the enemies with whatever they had, be it latti or anything else. I got to see a large part of his speech in 7th March 1971, it was AWE-INSPIRING.

[Sohel]

Let them play GOD and decide who's a "Muslim" and who's not. I'll stick to the facts.

Another fact:-

THE PAKIS STILL HAVEN'T APOLOGIZED AS A NATION OR ATTEMPTED TO TRY WAR CRIMINALS HANDED OVER TO THEM AFTER THE SIMLA TREATY. THE FACT IS, MOST OF THEIR POPULATION, AS REFLECTED BY THEIR SUPPORT FOR PPP AT THE TIME, AND DEAFENING SILENCE TO AND APATHY CONFIRM EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS FROM THAT TIME. THEY SUPPORTED PAKI CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY IN THE NAME OF NATIONAL/ISLAMIC 'UNITY' AND 'PURIFICATION'.
[] THEM AND ALL OF THEIR NATIONAL SYMBOLS INCLUDING THEIR CRICKET TEAM! [] THE CHILDREN SPAWNED BY THOSE RAZAKARS WHO TRY TO SUBVERT THE FACTS. I HOPE THESE (LITERALLY) [] WILL MOVE TO PAKISTAN OR STAY IN THEIR SAUDI GULF STATE PARADISE. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT BANGLADESHI WORKERS THERE BUT THOSE [] WHO LOOK DOWN UPON THEM.

AS A BANGLADESHI AMERICAN NOW LIVING IN BANGLADESH, I'LL REMIND EVERYONE THAT WE DON'T LIVE WITH ISLAMOPHOBIC NEOCONS HERE, BUT REAL FACTS AND THREATS FROM THEIR KIND.

Sorry, had to vent there. Sick and tired of Paki lovin' deshis. Sick of of giving these unintelligent zealots and fanatics more credit and respect than they deserve.

[Rifat]

Originally Posted by Sohel NR
Let them play GOD and decide who's a "Muslim" and who's not. I'll stick to the facts.

Another fact:-

THE PAKIS STILL HAVEN'T APOLOGIZED AS A NATION OR ATTEMPTED TO TRY WAR CRIMINALS HANDED OVER TO THEM AFTER THE SIMLA TREATY. THE FACT IS, MOST OF THEIR POPULATION, AS REFLECTED BY THEIR SUPPORT FOR PPP AT THE TIME, AND DEAFENING SILENCE TO AND APATHY CONFIRM EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS FROM THAT TIME. THEY SUPPORTED PAKI CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY IN THE NAME OF NATIONAL/ISLAMIC 'UNITY' AND 'PURIFICATION'.
[] THEM AND ALL OF THEIR NATIONAL SYMBOLS INCLUDING THEIR CRICKET TEAM![]THE CHILDREN SPAWNED BY THOSE RAZAKARS WHO TRY TO SUBVERT THE FACTS. I HOPE THESE (LITERALLY) [] WILL MOVE TO PAKISTAN OR STAY IN THEIR SAUDI GULF STATE PARADISE. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT BANGLADESHI WORKERS THERE BUT THOSE [] WHO LOOK DOWN UPON THEM.

AS A BANGLADESHI AMERICAN NOW LIVING IN BANGLADESH, I'LL REMIND EVERYONE THAT WE DON'T LIVE WITH ISLAMOPHOBIC NEOCONS HERE, BUT REAL FACTS AND THREATS FROM THEIR KIND.

Sorry, had to vent there. Sick and tired of Paki lovin' deshis. Sick of of giving these unintelligent zealots and fanatics more credit and respect than they deserve.

let's not become what we have been victim of: HATRED!!!

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by rifat
let's not become what we have been victim of: HATRED!!!

Thank you for the wise words, Sheikh. I was born yesterday and you need to tell me who I am. Thank you.

[Purbasha T]

Originally Posted by Sohel NR
Let them play GOD and decide who's a "Muslim" and who's not. I'll stick to the facts.

Another fact:-

THE PAKIS STILL HAVEN'T APOLOGIZED AS A NATION OR ATTEMPTED TO TRY WAR CRIMINALS HANDED OVER TO THEM AFTER THE SIMLA TREATY. THE FACT IS, MOST OF THEIR POPULATION, AS REFLECTED BY THEIR SUPPORT FOR PPP AT THE TIME, AND DEAFENING SILENCE TO AND APATHY CONFIRM EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS FROM THAT TIME. THEY SUPPORTED PAKI CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY IN THE NAME OF NATIONAL/ISLAMIC 'UNITY' AND 'PURIFICATION'.
[] THEM AND ALL OF THEIR NATIONAL SYMBOLS INCLUDING THEIR CRICKET TEAM! [] THE CHILDREN SPAWNED BY THOSE RAZAKARS WHO TRY TO SUBVERT THE FACTS. I HOPE THESE (LITERALLY) [] WILL MOVE TO PAKISTAN OR STAY IN THEIR SAUDI GULF STATE PARADISE. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT BANGLADESHI WORKERS THERE BUT THOSE [] WHO LOOK DOWN UPON THEM.

AS A BANGLADESHI AMERICAN NOW LIVING IN BANGLADESH, I'LL REMIND EVERYONE THAT WE DON'T LIVE WITH ISLAMOPHOBIC NEOCONS HERE, BUT REAL FACTS AND THREATS FROM THEIR KIND.

Sorry, had to vent there. Sick and tired of Paki lovin' deshis. Sick of of giving these unintelligent zealots and fanatics more credit and respect than they deserve.

Blaming the whole country for its power-misusing people is not right, according to me. Even at that time, there were protests in West Pakistan itself against that genocide, no? Even couple of months ago I saw articles in newspapers about some Pakistanis with an apology campaign to Bangladesh. Well, I agree the Pak gov. themselves should apologise officially BUT still everything against that country is just wrong. We don't need to love them for any reason, but of course not hate them for what that ancestors did. Well, I know there are civilians Pakis who don't see wrong in what their army did. But anyway, still hating them collectively still doesn't help in here ..... I HATE EVERYONE WHO DID INJUSTICE! BUT I DONT LOSE MY CONTROL AND SENSE OVER THE HATRED.

[Rifat]

Originally Posted by Purbasha T
Blaming the whole country for its power-misusing people is not right, according to me. Even at that time, there were protests in West Pakistan itself against that genocide, no? Even couple of months ago I saw articles in newspapers about some Pakistanis with an apology campaign to Bangladesh. Well, I agree the Pak gov. themselves should apologise officially BUT still everything against that country is just wrong. We don't need to love them for any reason, but of course not hate them for what that ancestors did. Well, I know there are civilians Pakis who don't see wrong in what their army did. But anyway, still hating them collectively still doesn't help in here ..... I HATE EVERYONE WHO DID INJUSTICE! BUT I DONT LOSE MY CONTROL AND SENSE OVER THE HATRED.

thank you

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by Purbasha T
Blaming the whole country for its power-misusing people is not right, according to me. Even at that time, there were protests in West Pakistan itself against that genocide, no? Even couple of months ago I saw articles in newspapers about some Pakistanis with an apology campaign to Bangladesh. Well, I agree the Pak gov. themselves should apologise officially BUT still everything against that country is just wrong. We don't need to love them for any reason, but of course not hate them for what that ancestors did. Well, I know there are civilians Pakis who don't see wrong in what their army did. But anyway, still hating them collectively still doesn't help in here ..... I HATE EVERYONE WHO DID INJUSTICE! BUT I DONT LOSE MY CONTROL AND SENSE OVER THE HATRED.

I respect your right you express your opinion and will defend that right even when I disagree with some of the assumptions and nuances. Basic democratic values drafted under our 1972 constitution, based upon specific political principles we fought and died for. Values people voted for.

But once crimes are committed and subsequently supported either directly or through silence, I'm not willing to play nice.

As individual Muslims we are compelled to take action against injustice. The action is dictated by GOD and His detailed and unambiguous words in the Quran. "GOD is not short of words". Most normative traditions in Islam also back this up. Depending on the most, immediate good, we as individuals have a choice of 1) "changing injustice with our hand", 2) "speaking out against it", or 3) "hating it in our heart."

I'd love to see some documentation of those "protests" and assess the scale and impact of those alleged protests for myself. Most Pakis overwhelmingly voted for the PPP and Bhutto was a part of "Operation Searchlight". Facts. He also went to the UN and created quite a scene denying what was really happening in Bangladesh. He got a hero's welcome from Pakis because of his performance. They bought into the "national unity" and "Islamic purity" excuses lock, stock and barrel.

There were a VERY small group of left leaning journos and civil society members who supported our just cause outright. A slightly less microscopic number quietly protested.

Personally, my family and I were hoarded around concentration camps in Pakistan during the war and my late father (RIP), a highly decorated war hero during the Kashmir campaign, was severely tortured by the Paki Army. No Paki supported us, no Paki came to our aid and we actually had land and family in Karachi. The true face of our neighbors became obvious. My late grandfather, a world renowned physicist and the Chairman of Paki Atomic Energy Commission, had worse experiences from his "progressive and academic friends" there. He escaped through Afghanistan.

My family in Bangladesh fought rather than escape to India and eat Nizam's biriyani. I have uncles who have been martyred and aunts raped by the Pakis and their deshi hujiur chamchas. None of their friends from Pakistan came to their aid. I went to school with children of martyrs. They too have stories to tell.

I don't know every single Paki. Met a few here and there. Some do good things, some not so good things, like everyone else including Bangladeshis. There's no question of "hating every Paki". In fact, there are individual Paki players I admire as a cricket fan. Guys like Zaheer Abbas, Javed Miandad, Waqar Younus, Wasim Akram, Muhammad Yusuf and more recently Misbah-ul-Haque and Sohail Tanvir. That said, political/national symbols in light of many unresolved and high impact issues are a different ballgame.

Paki lovin' is also hatred. The worst kind because it is none other than self-hatred, the root of every other kind.

[Rifat]

Originally Posted by Sohel NR
I respect your right you express your opinion and will defend that right even when I disagree with some of the assumptions and nuances. Basic democratic values drafted under our 1972 constitution, based upon specific political principles we fought and died for. Values people voted for.

But once crimes are committed and subsequently supported either directly or through silence, I'm not willing to play nice.

As individual Muslims we are compelled to take action against injustice. The action is dictated by GOD and His detailed and unambiguous words in the Quran. "GOD is not short of words". Most normative traditions in Islam also back this up. Depending on the most, immediate good, we as individuals have a choice of 1) "changing injustice with our hand", 2) "speaking out against it", or 3) "hating it in our heart."

I'd love to see some documentation of those "protests" and assess the scale and impact of those alleged protests for myself. Most Pakis overwhelmingly voted for the PPP and Bhutto was a part of "Operation Searchlight". Facts. He also went to the UN and created quite a scene denying what was really happening in Bangladesh. He got a hero's welcome from Pakis because of his performance. They bought into the "national unity" and "Islamic purity" excuses lock, stock and barrel.

There were a VERY small group of left leaning journos and civil society members who supported our just cause outright. A slightly less microscopic number quietly protested.

Personally, my family and I were hoarded around interment camps in Pakistan during the war and my late father (RIP), a highly decorated war hero during the Kashmir campaign, was severely tortured by the Paki Army. Nobody supported us, nobody came to our aid and we actually had land and family in Karachi. The true face of our neighbors became obvious. My late grandfather, a world renowned physicist and the Chairman of Paki Atomic Energy Commission, had worse experiences from his "progressive and academic friends" there. He escaped through Afghanistan.

My family in Bangladesh fought rather than escape to India and eat Nizam's biriyani. I have uncles who have been martyred and aunts raped by the Pakis and their deshi hujiur chamchas. None of their friends from Pakistan came to their aid. I went to school with children of martyrs. They too have stories to tell.

I don't know every single Paki. Met a few here and there. Some do good things, some not so good things, like everyone else including Bangladesh. There are individual Paki players I admire as a cricket fan. Guys like Zaheer Abbas, Javed Mindad, Waqar Younus, Wasim Akram, Muhammad Yusuf and more recently Misbah-ul-Haque and Sohail Tanvir. That said, political/national symbols in light of many unresolved and high impact issues are a different ballgame.

Paki lovin' is also hatred. The worst kind because it is none other than self-hatred, the root of every other kind.

i am truly sorry...i didn't know forgive me for my harsh words...i know where you are coming from. it is one thing to read it in history book it is another to live through it.

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by rifat
i am truly sorry...i didn't know forgive me for my harsh words...i know where you are coming from. it is one thing to read it in history book it is another to live through it.

No need to apologize bro, you did nothing wrong ...

[Alien]

Originally Posted by Sohel NR
Let them play GOD and decide who's a "Muslim" and who's not. I'll stick to the facts.

Another fact:-

THE PAKIS STILL HAVEN'T APOLOGIZED AS A NATION OR ATTEMPTED TO TRY WAR CRIMINALS HANDED OVER TO THEM AFTER THE SIMLA TREATY. THE FACT IS, MOST OF THEIR POPULATION, AS REFLECTED BY THEIR SUPPORT FOR PPP AT THE TIME, AND DEAFENING SILENCE TO AND APATHY CONFIRM EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS FROM THAT TIME. THEY SUPPORTED PAKI CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY IN THE NAME OF NATIONAL/ISLAMIC 'UNITY' AND 'PURIFICATION'.
[] THEM AND ALL OF THEIR NATIONAL SYMBOLS INCLUDING THEIR CRICKET TEAM! [] THE CHILDREN SPAWNED BY THOSE RAZAKARS WHO TRY TO SUBVERT THE FACTS. I HOPE THESE (LITERALLY) [] WILL MOVE TO PAKISTAN OR STAY IN THEIR SAUDI GULF STATE PARADISE. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT BANGLADESHI WORKERS THERE BUT THOSE [] WHO LOOK DOWN UPON THEM.

AS A BANGLADESHI AMERICAN NOW LIVING IN BANGLADESH, I'LL REMIND EVERYONE THAT WE DON'T LIVE WITH ISLAMOPHOBIC NEOCONS HERE, BUT REAL FACTS AND THREATS FROM THEIR KIND.

Sorry, had to vent there. Sick and tired of Paki lovin' deshis. Sick of of giving these unintelligent zealots and fanatics more credit and respect than they deserve.

There is no need to get all hyper. As you can see by simply opening another tab and type Pakistan in Google news, there are having ample problems with Talibans from Afghanistan in whose views, average Pakistanis are not pure enough muslims. So in a way they are already getting a dose of their own medicine.

I dunno how to say this without starting to generalising, but Pakistanis are (all the ones I met personally) are the shiftiest people I've known. There's not many where I live but all are of same type.

[Kabir]

Originally Posted by Sohel NR
Sorry, had to vent there. Sick and tired of Paki lovin' deshis. Sick of of giving these unintelligent zealots and fanatics more credit and respect than they deserve.

Hopefully I'll get some clarification on this from you. Who are paki-loving deshis? What defines a paki-loving deshi?

You should know where I'm coming from.

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by Kabir
Hopefully I'll get some clarification on this from you. Who are paki-loving deshis? What defines a paki-loving deshi?

You should know where I'm coming from.

Those Bangladeshi apologists and dalals who try to sugarcoat historical realities by taking advantage of the ignorance and apathy of the indifferent, and wave the Paki flag unconditionally whenever and whatever they play, including against us. Not deshis who actually love wonderful and beautiful people who have connections, no matter how obscure, to Pakistan. The same goes for Indophiles on the other side. I'm proud to be a Bangladeshi American and Bangladeshi nationalist. Proud to be an anti-sectarian Muslim, a Bengali, and a compatriot of many BIhari and the 65 non-Bengali indigenous groups of Bangladeshis in our diverse country.

Hope that cleared things up a bit K. I am by no means a BAL supporter, my freedom fighting, Bhasani NAP family was severely persecuted by the BAKSAL dictatorship and their Rakkhibahini death squads directly responsible for murdering 30000+ freedom fighters associated with leftist politics of NAP Bhasani/Taher and Jalil's Jashod/Shiraj Shikdar and Ziauddin's Shorbohara, not the Mujib Bahini posers they were themselves. Posers who never fired a shot inside Bangladesh before late November. Also, I harbor no illusions about the stark and tragic difference between Sheikh Shaheb (RIP) the great leader and undisputed focal point of our successful political struggle, and tyrannical the head of state most didn't shed a tear for when he (RIP) and his family (RIP) were criminally assassinated by Mushtaq, a BAL leader, and those who backed him for a variety of reasons. That type of lawlessness adds to the problem already there. You don't establish law and order by breaking its spirit and letter of our common law as reflected in the 1972 Constitution, initially subverted by BAKSAL Fascists.

But no way I was going to vote for a party, KZ/Pinu/Kuku/Falu's BNP, that formed an alliance with criminal, anti-constitutional, and ultimately anti-democratic forces that opposed our very birth, especially after their connection to JMB and other terrorist groups became clearly exposed. The record breaking corruption, inaction and the War Criminals issue also played a part.

That said, I admire a handful of people associated with both parties.

First and foremost Ziaur Rahman (RIP) after his emergence on November 7th. For holding our country together during the height of the Cold War and its coups and counter coups, real and far reaching reconstruction and nation building activities, and encouraged by Jimi Carter, the transition back to pluralist politics without resorting to nepotism or fostering a cult of personality. I bear witness to that. The ugliness along the way, some necessary and some, such as illegally amending the 1972 Constitution and the clearly stated values he fought for as a heroic and significant SC, rehabilitating anti-Bangladeshi forces for political gain, continuing the Israeli style holistic aggression against our own people in CHT, modernizing thuggery in student politics, and the influx of dodgy, opportunistic and corrupt politicians into BNP, were simply criminal.

In BAL, I admire the late Tajuddin Ahmed (RIP), quickly out of favor by Sheikh Shaheb (RIP) himself for his continued and uncompromising stance on democracy, nepotism and corruption. I also admire Matia Choudhury, Saber Bhai and of late, Dipu Moni, Mal Muhit, Sohel Taj and Said Khokon. Others make me puke.

Pinu and Falu have destroyed the BNP pipeline completely and weakened once formidable leaders such as Mannan Bhuiyan and Khoka beyond repair and redemption.

[Kabir]

Originally Posted by Sohel NR
Those Bangladeshi apologists and dalals who try to sugarcoat historical realities by taking advantage of the ignorance and apathy of the indifferent, and wave the Paki flag unconditionally whenever and whatever they play, including against us. Not deshis who actually love wonderful and beautiful people who have connections, no matter how obscure, to Pakistan. The same goes for Indophiles on the other side. I'm proud to be a Bangladeshi American and Bangladeshi nationalist. Proud to be an anti-sectarian Muslim, a Bengali, and a compatriot of many BIhari and the 65 non-Bengali indigenous groups of Bangladeshis in our diverse country.

Hope that cleared things up a bit K.

Thanks Sohel bhai, for clearing it up for me.

Until I met you here, I only heard of the nightmares of the '71, the mindless killings, the raping of women, and so much more nonsense. You're the first person I know who has experienced it.

I know that there are facts that I, as a younger Bangladeshi, may not know. In fact, many things you mentioned here are new to me. But that does not / should not play a role in mine or anyone else's unconditional support for our freedom fighters.

[Rifat]

if anything they did in the name of Islam, is nothing but defame it...clear sign of hypocricy is that those who preach "peace" but act exactly the opposite

[Rifat]

sarcasm at its best

[Jesus87]

There are two teams which I hate most Paskitan and India. Would love to see these [edited] going packing after the first round. India is impossible but Pakistan common Dutch kick some Paki ash

[Purbasha T]

Originally Posted by Sohel NR
Asaad my brother, that's an idea often espoused by ex-Razakars and in cocktail party banter by folks making small talk and talking out of their @$$. Here are the facts, not as I see them but the facts themselves according to military historians in Bangladesh, Pakistan, India and the US, not to mention journos from Bangladesh, India, US, UK and France at the time ...

> An overwhelming majority of rural Bangladesh, where most of our people lived at the time, was liberated by October, also by several commanders taking very little Indian aid. They are: Manzoor (RIP), Taher (RIP), Jalil (RIP), Ziauddin, Ziaur Rahman (RIP), AK Khandakar, Zaman, Siraj Sikdar (RIP), Quader Siddiqui, CR Datta, Badal and Alam among other, smaller bands of freedom fighters.

> This was inevitable as the criminal Paki Army had no counterinsurgency capability and was fighting a conventional war in a country they helped underdevelop through exploitation. Poor infrastructure in general and literally no roads to take theirs tanks and heavy weaponry to the vast interior of our country. Simply put, they were sitting ducks on our so called national highways waiting to be ambushed. Whenever they ventured into the interior, they risked getting shot at.

> So the criminal Paki army withdraw into fortified positions in our "major cities" including DHQs and "prominent" towns such as Feni, Sunamganj, Narail etc. There they, and their Islamo Political (Jamaat and Muslim League) and pro Bhutto's PPP allies organized torture chambers and death squads to wage genocide against our general population in the name of National/Islamic "unity" and "purification". Since they were unable to find Muktibahini most of the times, they indulged in documented mass killings, detention and torture, systematic rape where these Salafist/Maududi Mullahs served as pimps, and brigandage.

> The Indians, irrespective of whatever "hidden" motive their powerful political elite may have had, directly aided our refugees, our Government in Exile led by the great Tajuddin Ahmed (RIP), and the international effort to create support for our cause. They also provided weapons and training to Muktibahini facilities effectively organized and coordinated by Khaled Musharraf (RIP). In addition to all that, they hampered and mitigated Paki reinforcement efforts over their territorial waters and air. Later many of their soldiers risked and gave their lives and limbs for us cause. Again the political circumstances do not change the fact for individuals and families still living with the net result.

> Anyway, this critical clogging of their supply lines and the unfamiliar Monsoon season made the quick Paki defeat inevitable to everyone who witnessed what they were doing. They and their allies became more desperate and intensified their crimes against the Bangladeshi people. So Tajuddin asked the Indians to intervene. The equation was simple, the shortest route to victory would save literally tens and millions of lives. That's what they did, and no matter what the political agenda of the Indian government may have been, they helped save tens of millions of people from death, rape and torture, period. They left after their mission was accomplished and our country was free of occupation forces, save a few significant border villages they continue to occupy illegally.

I humbly suggest instead of listening to whomever you've been listening to, dig into the widely available archives and be informed. US Library of Congress, Google, and Wiki are all good places to find more detailed links.

Please do not compare LTTE, ETA, Taliban, or PKK to Muktibahini. That's anti-historical and silly. Generalized semantics and polemics do not blur the differences at all. Neither does the crimes of your oppressor. According reputable and independent human rights reports, my only standard when assessing political conflicts, these are terrorist organizations engaged in attacks against non combatants and they do not tolerate internal dissent. They also reject the relatively democratic framework offered in Sri Lanka, Spain, Afghanistan, post Musharraf Pakistan and Turkey. They also, because of their tendency to terrorize their own population, do not enjoy the kind of popular support necessary to successfully sustain their cause. The wrongs of your enemies do not make your own wrongs less wrong or right. Righteousness is far more sustainable than reaction and reactionary violence. Real moral high ground is essential to sustainable political success, as exemplified by MLK and the American Civil Rights movement. "Biting the dog" is always counterproductive in the log run. Time to evolve.

Muktibahini and the late Tajuddin (RIP) Government in Exile was democratic and tolerated internal dissent. They also did not do any of the things LTTE has done over the years. Things such as suicide bombings and other attacks on non combatants supplemented by lynching fellow Tamils who disagreed with them. Then there's the ethnic cleansing of the Sinhalese and Muslims from the Jaffna region.

Unlike the LTTE we also didn't have a democratic framework to work with. Pakis denied us our legitimate rights, won through free and fair elections twice (Jukto Front and AL, not BAL at that time), and responded with repeated martial law and finally "Operation Searchlight". Interestingly enough, because this militarist culture, they destroyed most of their civil organizations and become a dysfunctional state. As a result of the ISI's alliance with Maududi/Salafist political organizations forged during Yahiya and enhanced during the Afghan war of resistance against the Soviets, they've created a Frankenstein they're battling at the moment.

GOD is Omniscient, Omnipotent and Just. He transcends human reason, emotions, attributes, expressions and imagery. He guarantees victory to the righteous who willfully and without sociocultural and psychopolitical coercion, endeavor to maintain and enhance his/her personal covenant with Him. Sincere in intent and free of the dark emotions that may cloud our clear assessments. There's a difference between "being righteous" and "believing yourself to be righteous", wearing that delusion like the worst sort of vanity, and killing in GOD's name by actually speaking for Him and putting words in His mouth. Kill, coerce and impose. So much for "no compulsion in religion" and "willful submission". Astagferullah!

Top post that, cleared some serious misconceptions there.

[Rifat]

this is why i love BC...

[One World]

Reminds me the parrot of Bohubrihi.

[Neel Here]

one thing about most pakistanis (not all but more than 90%) that gets my goat is they believe that they are somehow racially superior.
some even justify the inhuman genocide using this logic.

[Kabir]

Originally Posted by Neel Here
one thing about most pakistanis (not all but more than 90%) that gets my goat is they believe that they are somehow racially superior.

I can confirm this too.

some even justify the inhuman genocide using this logic.

Not saying that it's impossible, but this is the first time I heard this. If someone tries to justify any form of genocide for any reason, that person doesn't deserve to be a part of the civil society. They should dig their own grave, and stay there.

[Rabz]

Top posts Sohel bhai.
There are a lot of records that needs to be set straight.
Time has come for us to write the rights and scrap the rubbish.

Kabir bhai, with all due respect bro, i think it would be wiser for you to stay out of this.
Offcourse as a senior member of this forum and as a Bangladeshi, you have all the right to ask for clarification on any comment that you might find doubtful or offensive.

But your case is somewhat different than most (if not all) of us. You could end up taking things personally which probably was never intended towards you and get yourself in a sticky situation, which you dont have to, simply cuz you are already better than that.

Sorry if i'm being a Pinaccio.

Pakis are always a very sensative issue for us Bangladeshis.
Personally, I chose to hate them. Its my birth right as a Bangladeshi to hate them for all they have done. I will continue to do so till the day the Govt of pakistan officially apologizes to the people of Bangladesh, unconditionally accepts and admits their barbarism and tries their own war criminals.

This might not happen in my lifetime, infact, this might not happen at all. There will probably not be a pakistan in few years. I'm just a flesh and blood human being, with the deadly seven sins embedded inside me, not a Saint. So, till there is a country call pakistan, I will continue to held them responsible, hold on to my grudge and continue to hate them.