Turkish MPs plan headscarf reform

[Moshin]

Two major parties in Turkey have submitted a joint plan to parliament to ease a ban on the Islamic headscarf in the country's universities.
The Islamist-rooted governing AK Party and the nationalist MHP say it is an issue of human rights and freedoms.

The Islamic headscarf is worn by 60% of Turkish women

I dont know about you but I think the ban on the wearing of scarves is really unacceptable by the Turkish government. The constitution says it allows people the right of freedom of speech in society, but banning the wearing of scarves in universities is a huge matter that needs to be discussed espicially for people who are willing to wear the scarves, plus in a majority Muslim country it is just very strange, in the UK it allows freedom of speech for the wearing of religious clothing, I can understand why France has banned the scarves in schools because it will allow people of different races and faiths to communicate with each other in a wider perspective without having racial offence against them because of thier wearing but this is also not giving rights or freedom.

In a country where the majority of the people of Turkey are Muslims, the banning of scarves doesnt really seem very necessary, because the ban will not effect people's point of views or any racial offence towards others, but they will understand why they have chosen to wear the scarf and I doubt any offence will be taken from those who oppose the wearing of scarves because over 95% of the population of Turkey are in fact Muslims, which will not create a sense of controversey between people, so the lifting of the ban of wearing scarves is a good move from the government because it must understand they are living in a Muslim traditional country where many people would like to show thier beliefs of religious freedom in universities!

The issue is highly controversial in a mainly Muslim country whose secular elite - including the powerful military - sees the headscarf as a symbol of political Islam, the BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Istanbul says.

To view report: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7214827.stm

[Puck]

interesting thread and development in turkey. i personally like turkey the way it is, however, the mild tide of islamism that started out in the late eighties and early nineties as protests against satanic verses, had certainly had a marked effect amongst the turkish youth. now in their thirties and forties, they form the voting majority.

my personal experience of turkey is multifaceted. firsty, i greatly enjoy its fine tourist resorts and love istambul as a city. secondly, i have a close turkish friend, turhan, who is an associate professor of religious history at a very prestigious turkish university. there is a fortnightly email and yearly meetings now that he is back in turkey. thirdly, an exgirlfriend sibel, who was finnish was born of a turkish father.

having enjoyed the hospitality of turhan at his house in istambul and the family seat in eastern anatolia, i can say that there is a noticeable contrast between the westernised parts of the country and rural anatolia. almost 65 to 70% of the population lives in rural turkey as well as small towns. much of the political and military elite come from very old middle class families who are now westernised despite possessing much land in rural parts of the country. the khedevs and pashas might have been abolished as titles, but these families still contribute to much of the political consciousness.

my friend turhan is from such a family and is devoutly muslim in his outlook. his doctorate might be in church history and he is the turkish authority in the nicean creed but the man switched his lecture at last years patristics conference (biennial conference held at oxford uni on the writings of church fathers) as it would intervene with his afternoon prayer. turhan would like to see all muslim turkish women in headscarf. we have debated over it a number of times. he claims that he is in a minority amongst the middle classes although there is much support for it in the working classes. he personally doesn't have a problem relating to or dealing with female students whether they wear the scarf or not but his personal belief as a muslim is that students should wear it at least as a mark of respect for their teachers.

walking through the streets of istambul recently and having enjoyed many a coffee in cafes overlooking the bhosphorus, istambul is a unique city in its secularised form. i personally have an inkling that a repeal of the law could only lead to a slippery slope. turkish women are quite beautiful. if allah loves beauty then why would he want to deprive his creation of experiencing beauty in all his manifestations?

[Puck]

ho hum.. i had a nice picture here of a turkish woman draped in the flag but linking did not work

[Banglatiger84]

Originally Posted by Puck
i personally have an inkling that a repeal of the law could only lead to a slippery slope. turkish women are quite beautiful. if allah loves beauty then why would he want to deprive his creation of experiencing beauty in all his manifestations?

Nonsensical logic. What we are talking about is a system where those women who want to display their beauty are allowed to do so, and those who dont want that, are free to wear Hijab, as is the case in most countries of the world, Muslim (Malaysia, Egypt, Bangladesh, Pakistan) and non-Muslim (USA, UK, Canada, Australia, India)

What Turkey has currently, is a dictatorial ban on Hijab inside universities and govt offices. The govt has no business preventing people from wearing something they want to, just as it has no right enforcing a particular dress to eb worn

[Pundit]

Originally Posted by Puck
turkish women are quite beautiful. if allah loves beauty then why would he want to deprive his creation of experiencing beauty in all his manifestations?

Mr. Secular,

Even if you are lazy to switch to caps when required gramatically, you should address your creator's name with a capital A for the first letter.

If I have wrongly assumed you to be a Muslim, then my apologies.

I am expecting you to come back saying that you are a "muslim."

[Puck]

Originally Posted by Pundit
Mr. Secular,

Even if you are lazy to switch to caps when required gramatically, you should address your creator's name with a capital A for the first letter.

If I have wrongly assumed you to be a Muslim, then my apologies.

I am expecting you to come back saying that you are a "muslim."

grammatical conventions are for pundits. i am afraid i know too little of the world, have seen too little of it and in the ocean of human knowledge, have not even acquired the breadth of a raindrop to make comments that would please your punditry. such be the case, sir, i shall stick to my flawed ways of imperfection and lowercase..

[Puck]

Originally Posted by Banglatiger84
Nonsensical logic. What we are talking about is a system where those women who want to display their beauty are allowed to do so, and those who dont want that, are free to wear Hijab, as is the case in most countries of the world, Muslim (Malaysia, Egypt, Bangladesh, Pakistan) and non-Muslim (USA, UK, Canada, Australia, India)

What Turkey has currently, is a dictatorial ban on Hijab inside universities and govt offices. The govt has no business preventing people from wearing something they want to, just as it has no right enforcing a particular dress to eb worn

as i said in my original post, i have not lived in turkey so my knowledge of its culture is simply gazed through an academic study of his history as well as a few personal contacts. based on this, my assessment is that, despite its dictatorial nature as suggested above, turkey is perhaps the most educated and most democratic of all muslim majority nations. the political affrontery for the lifting of the scarfban is merely a thinly veiled attempt to bring in a more fanatical interpretaion of islam than the country had not known since 1922. oddly enough, sayid qutub, the firebrand muslim brotherhood leader writing in 1953 saw turkey as the greatest evil in the muslim world.

[Rabz]

Banning something is imposing it, esp when it comes to sensitive issues like religious practise.

I think Scarf should be an optional thing.
You were if you like it, dont wear if otherwise.

But then again, im not a Turkish, so who am i to decide what they want to do?

[Moshin]

Originally Posted by Rabz
Banning something is imposing it, esp when it comes to sensitive issues like religious practise.

I definetly agree, I think the government really opposes the practice of religion by the people, I think the reason behind why the government has chosen to take this move because they believe being a very secular state will make the country more developed with growth in the economy and some way this has been succesful where the Turks have witnessed society as very different (better) just like the western world, plus it is dying to get into the European Union, the whole reason why they are not in the EU is because they are a Muslim country, by having very secular laws it might even pursuade the EU to accept them, but I just think the benefits are really negative in many ways.

I think Scarf should be an optional thing.
You were if you like it, dont wear if otherwise.

I would certainly would not like to be brought up in Turkey if it doesn't allow 'options' for the people!

[Puck]

Originally Posted by Moshin
I think the reason behind why the government has chosen to take this move because they believe being a very secular state will make the country more developed with growth in the economy and some way this has been succesful where the Turks have witnessed society as very different (better) just like the western world, plus it is dying to get into the European Union, the whole reason why they are not in the EU is because they are a Muslim country, by having very secular laws it might even pursuade the EU to accept them, but I just think the benefits are really negative in many ways.
!

the present constitution dates back to 1922. this is nothing new!

there was no european union in 1922 when turkey took on the path to modernisation. it was that modernisation and secularisation process that gave it a sense of national identity after the humiliating defeat in the first world war against the allies. turkey has been a secular state for nearly ninety years. from the ashes of caliphate they built up a moderate country where the majority don't want sharia law or pseudo islamic fanaticism. why go backwards? there are already several terrorist cells in turkey that had bombed areas frequented by westerners. the 90 year ban on headscarf might well be perceived as religious intollerance to the average bangladeshi in this message board, however, any repeal of this law would surely lead to further concessions to the fanatics. the next step would be compulsory headscarf for all women in public places within turkey. i fear that 99.9% of the posters in this forum would not start a thread when that happens!

[samircreep]

The situation in turkey has less to do with religion that it has with class. Turkey, esp istanbul, was predominantly swayed by its liberal elites, also known as the white turks, who adhered to a very dogmatic interpretation of an ataturkian vision of mosque vs state. They are now being superceded by a religious middle class who have both political and economic clout and are eager to finally have their say in day to day life. turkys generals and liberal politicians are on a retreat from this new class.

[Ajfar]

just wondering if anyone knws...what is the origin of turkish language?? cause..i hav a turkish friend..me n my cuzn we both go to UCONN..n sometimes when we r talking bangla..he understands wat we r talking abt..

[Pundit]

Originally Posted by bangladesh_sy
just wondering if anyone knws...what is the origin of turkish language?? cause..i hav a turkish friend..me n my cuzn we both go to UCONN..n sometimes when we r talking bangla..he understands wat we r talking abt..

When the Turkish President Turgut Ozal visited Bangladesh in the late 80s, he was so impressed with the culture and mellifluous sounds of bangla, he decreed upon return, as his first act, that they begin to learn Bangla as a second language.

This is why young Turks are only adept in Bangla...not the elders. The elders who never accommodated this constitutional ammendment were instead dispatched to Israel to learn Yiddish.

[Puck]

considering that the present lands that geographically map israel once belonged to the turkish khalifat, i am sure that descendents of some of the administrators would be quite familiar with yiddish..

[Rubu]

As far as I know, there is no mention of Hijab in Quraan or in Hadith. It came from Tabien era. If that is true, it has become more of a symbol than anything else. But it should be up to the person who practices it.

[BanCricFan]

Originally Posted by Puck
.. despite its dictatorial nature as suggested above, turkey is perhaps the most educated and most democratic of all muslim majority nations. .

Sir,
Turkyie is definitely not the most "democratic" amongst all muslim countries! Where people are forced to shave-off their beards and take-off their Hijabs to enter the academic campuses- cannot be considered most "democratic". Not to mention the mandetory hanging of Ataturk's portrait on all official buildings. If you must, then Malaysia might be a better example both in terms of education and relative freedom to express religiosity. Pre-occupied Iraq was light years ahead on Educational Index compared to Turkyie.

By the way, God, indeed, is beautiful and loves beauty but He sees beauty in modesty/nobility rather than the flaunting open displays for public consumption.

[Puck]

Originally Posted by BanCricFan
Sir,
Turkyie is definitely not the most "democratic" amongst all muslim countries! Where people are forced to shave-off their beards and take-off their Hijabs to enter the academic campuses- cannot be considered most "democratic". Not to mention the mandetory hanging of Ataturk's portrait on all official buildings. If you must, then Malaysia might be a better example both in terms of education and relative freedom to express religiosity. Pre-occupied Iraq was light years ahead on Educational Index compared to Turkyie.

By the way, God, indeed, is beautiful and loves beauty but He sees beauty in modesty/nobility rather than the flaunting open displays for public consumption.

malaysia as an example would certainly please the fanatics. the ethnic malay and hindu population have a slightly different picture to paint in terms of religious freedom. being part of the tiger economy of course shields aspects of religious fundamentalism.

i shall pretend that i didn't read your statement on iraq. saddam and democracy?!?

[Puck]

Originally Posted by BanCricFan

By the way, God, indeed, is beautiful and loves beauty but He sees beauty in modesty/nobility rather than the flaunting open displays for public consumption.

god punishes those the harshest who dare to think of him in masculine or feminine terms. your use of the pronoun 'he' to describe god in masculine terms is certainly such an act!

[BanCricFan]

Originally Posted by Puck
malaysia as an example would certainly please the fanatics. the ethnic malay and hindu population have a slightly different picture to paint in terms of religious freedom. being part of the tiger economy of course shields aspects of religious fundamentalism.

i shall pretend that i didn't read your statement on iraq. saddam and democracy?!?

As long as you can turn a blind eye on the kurds...

Who mentioned Iraq and democracy...read my post again.

[Puck]

Originally Posted by Rubu
As far as I know, there is no mention of Hijab in Quraan or in Hadith. It came from Tabien era. If that is true, it has become more of a symbol than anything else. But it should be up to the person who practices it.

the prophet's wives were jealous of each other and ayesha the most as she was supposedly his favourite. there were many an open argument that spilled into the street. a lot of the verses in the quran were a result of this and came about to rebuke the wives. the element of modesty in behaviour and attire comes out this. since the prophet and his family is adored by muslims, it felt appropriate for muslim women to emulate the behavior that was expected of the prophet's wives. quran recommends modesty for both men and women.

[Puck]

Originally Posted by BanCricFan
As long as you can turn a blind eye on the kurds...

Who mentioned Iraq and democracy...read my post again.

i am not turning a blind eye to the kurds, however, your loving saddam sodomised and killed more of them than ataturk and his fellow democrats.

[BanCricFan]

Originally Posted by Puck
god punishes those the harshest who dare to think of him in masculine or feminine terms. your use of the pronoun 'he' to describe god in masculine terms is certainly such an act!

Is this a Hature Fatwa by Puck the Trickster? Cunning way of shifting focus? ...You are yet to reply to my post regarding Arabic grammer on "is this correct English"...so, I assume Arabic is not your cup of Chai. Allow me to explain some basics of Arabic- in classical Arabic, the pronoun Hua (He) although masculine but may also contain the feminine pronoun Hea (she)in very rare usuages. That besides the point, In the Quran God addresses Himself as He in the masculine gender. "He" I used is masculine but also metaphorical- hence, the capital H- as I dont believe God is a Man... something akin to the royal We in English. Out of all people, you should have no problem understanding this as you so frequently showboat great erudtion, punditry, culture and knowledge!

Nice try tho'!

[BanCricFan]

Originally Posted by Puck
i am not turning a blind eye to the kurds, however, your loving saddam sodomised and killed more of them than ataturk and his fellow democrats.

Your love for Ataturk might be unconditional but I have never professed love for Saddam anywhere. Can you let me do the feelings for myself and you do yours?

BTW, how do you Know Sadam sodomised more than Ataturk- do you have some stats on your hands?

[Puck]

Originally Posted by BanCricFan
Is this a Hature Fatwa by Puck the Trickster? Cunning way of shifting focus? ...You are yet to reply to my post regarding Arabic grammer on "is this correct English"...so, I assume Arabic is not your cup of Chai. Allow me to explain some basics of Arabic- in classical Arabic, the pronoun Hua (He) although masculine but may also contain the feminine pronoun Hea (she)in very rare usuages. That besides the point, In the Quran God addresses Himself as He in the masculine gender. "He" I used is masculine but also metaphorical as I dont believe God is a Man... something akin to the royal We in English. Out of all people, you should have no problem understanding this as you so frequently showboat great erudtion, punditry, culture and knowledge!

Nice try tho'!

i am afraid i don't have the time to read or follow up on every single thread here. you are quite correct. i can't profess much of an understanding of arabic. i only studied classical arabic for a couple of years and then subsequently taught students for a number of years. i am certainly open to more tuition though from more learned arabic teachers.

the arabic hu'a or for that matter how is sees the creator is not in discussion here. since you seem to be so intent on preaching a particular brand of islam and shooting down all those who have an opposing viewpoint, i am quite correct in pointing out your own showboating, which in this case thinks of the creator in masculine terms.

[Puck]

Originally Posted by BanCricFan
Your love for Ataturk might be unconditional but I have never professed love for Saddam anywhere. Can you let me do the feelings for myself and you do yours?

BTW, how do you Know Sadam sodomised more than Ataturk- do you have some stats on your hands?

i never professed any 'love; for ataturk, certainly not in the same level as your admiration of sadam, when you looked up to it as some model of democracy! i certainly don't have any figures for atrocities committed by attaturk but i suspect that he spent far too much of his life fighting the allies for the cause of a truly independent and modern turkey, to really worry about the kurds too much. now if you want to talk about the armenian massacre thats the different story altogether and implicates most of the turkish elite of that era..