Why are Muslims so violent and intolerant?

[Zeeshan]

Wanted to carry on the discussion from here onwards.

Personally, if the premise is:

I condemn it because the religion of Islam doesn’t allow such an action.

then it makes me wonder why is someone afraid to go one step further and vociferously express: I condemn it because IT'S JUST PLAIN WRONG.
Albeit this is what happens when one views certain matters through religious lens: Not have the freedom to think for oneself.

Do I really need guidance from Above or religious green-light to condemn such actions? Where is the morality and humanity? Do I have to pause a second or two seeing someone chops someone's head off to reflect: Hmmm...let me think if it is condemned in our Holy Book or not. If yes I will condemn it, if not, then not.

Cultural influence, conformity and discouragement of freethinking plays a great role. Yes, mainstream Muslims are not uneducated or illiterate, but neither are my Muslim-Bangladeshi uncles and aunties that much advanced in spiritual evolution that I can openly discuss or question such hairy matters as drugs, incest, prostitution, sex which are perceived negatively.

Repression plays a role too. In Bangladeshi newspapers, brutal dead bodies are portrayed oftentimes but mild content of sexual nature is routinely censored. Forgot the name of a random actress who once observed that how even in AMERICA people are considered conservative than Europeans regarding sex. Her message: more sex less violence.

Of course, I do not necessarily agree with her sentiment. But F6 Turbo is not far off when s/he made the initial observation. All in all the answer is of complex nature.

Disclaimer: Please understand above post is an opinion only and may reflect certain bias.

[inspyr9]

Did we, the Muslims ever made a movie, published a cartoon portraying Jesus in a negative manner?
We respect him. i dont get the same vibe from Christians.
Did we, the Muslims ever burned the Bible or threatened to have a burning Bible day or pee on the Bible?
They did.
I know the reaction to this stupid movie has been foolish and unnecessary but the other side is not any greener.

[Zunaid]

Originally Posted by inspyr9
Did we, the Muslims ever made a movie, published a cartoon portraying Jesus in a negative manner?
We respect him. i dont get the same vibe from Christians.
Did we, the Muslims ever burned the Bible or threatened to have a burning Bible day or pee on the Bible?
They did.

So what !?

Originally Posted by inspyr9
I know the reaction to this stupid movie has been foolish and unnecessary but the other side is not any greener.

Is the best you could do is the word "foolish' and "unnecessary"?

Here is what I do not understand from those who try to defend the indefensible. What the "other side" did IS irrelevant to what "this side did". There IS absolutely NO justification for murder. None. Trying to excuse it is tantamount to condoning it.

[Naimul_Hd]

Originally Posted by Zunaid
So what !?



Is the best you could do is the word "foolish' and "unnecessary"?

Here is what I do not understand from those who try to defend the indefensible. What the "other side" did IS irrelevant to what "this side did". There IS absolutely NO justification for murder. None. Trying to excuse it is tantamount to condoning it.

No one is justifying for murder. Whatever that terrorist group has done was heinous form of act and totally against Islamic Values. Those terrorists should be punished. But you can't deliberately ignore other sides' fault too. Why is it too hard to accept that ? Criticizing one's belief is one thing, but to make fun and to insult one's belief is another thing, it is a heinous form of act too. Those who make fun of a religion should be treated as badly as terrorists.

[Zeeshan]

Originally Posted by Naimul_Hd
No one is justifying for murder. Whatever that terrorist group has done was heinous form of act and totally against Islamic Values. Those terrorists should be punished. But you can't deliberately ignore other sides' fault too. Why is it too hard to accept that ? Criticizing one's belief is one thing, but to make fun and to insult one's belief is another thing, it is a heinous form of act too. Those who make fun of a religion should be treated as badly as terrorists.

I did not just read that.

[Naimul_Hd]

Originally Posted by Zeeshan
I did not just read that.

Yeah. Sorry, i forgot, 'Terrorists' word is only applicable for Muslims' !!

My bad.

[Zunaid]

Originally Posted by Naimul_Hd
No one is justifying for murder. Whatever that terrorist group has done was heinous form of act and totally against Islamic Values. Those terrorists should be punished. But you can't deliberately ignore other sides' fault too. Why is it too hard to accept that ? Criticizing one's belief is one thing, but to make fun and to insult one's belief is another thing, it is a heinous form of act too. Those who make fun of a religion should be treated as badly as terrorists.

Care to explain the bolded bit? Just so I do am not misunderstanding the point your are making.

How should terrorists be treated?

[Electrequiem]

No hope for humanity when people who are smart enough to access a keyboard connected to a computer that connects to the world wide web - a marvel of our progress as a species - can spout such bullshit*t.

[Maysun]

I think what Naimul is trying to say is, they should also be blamed for getting the Muslims provoked?

[Zeeshan]

Originally Posted by Naimul_Hd
Yeah. Sorry, i forgot, 'Terrorists' word is only applicable for Muslims' !!

My bad.

I respect you a lot as BC and FB friend, but come'on that is the most illogical thing one can possibly write. Suppose I make fun of a Sikh man by calling him a "rapper", then according to Code of Hudarabi, that makes me a terrorist and so I should be slain for it?

Some tough love hein?

Edit: Now that I see Maysun's post, how can someone possibly...POSSIBLY...even by mistake compare a crime of murder with heresy/harassments?

[Zunaid]

Originally Posted by maysun
I think what Naimul is trying to say is, they should also be blamed for getting the Muslims provoked?

Let him explain what he meant.

[Maysun]

I'm in no way defending Naimul, I foremost condemn killing/murder in any way whatsoever, and do not equate it to making fun of others faith.

I was just trying to clarify what Naimul was trying to say.

[Naimul_Hd]

Originally Posted by Zunaid
Care to explain the bolded bit? Just so I do am not misunderstanding the point your are making.

How should terrorists be treated?

My point is why do those who make fun of other religion always get away from punishment ? All those blasphemy, religious insults, hate speech against one's belief should be deemed as criminal offense within the limits of state's law. Having strict laws regarding religious insults, public hate speech towards any religion can help to avoid such chaos, killings. And yes, laws should be applicable to any one, be him Muslim, Christian, or atheist.

[Zeeshan]

My posts here may be deemed as trollish so I will recuse from here after this conundrum: I find it blasphemous that blasphemy itself should be "deemed as criminal offense".

[Naimul_Hd]

Originally Posted by maysun
I think what Naimul is trying to say is, they should also be blamed for getting the Muslims provoked?

Exactly.

The point is why give them chances at the first place ? If they had known that making such movie/ cartoon and publishing it in public could fetch him strict punishment, then they probably wouldn't have made that.

[Naimul_Hd]

Originally Posted by Zeeshan
My posts here may be deemed as trollish so I will recuse from here after this conundrum: I find it blasphemous that blasphemy itself should be "deemed as criminal offense".

Brother, there is a fine line between things which are relating to moral conscience and those relating to what is lawful.

[Zunaid]

Originally Posted by Naimul_Hd
My point is why do those who make fun of other religion always get away from punishment ? All those blasphemy, religious insults, hate speech against one's belief should be deemed as criminal offense within the limits of state's law. Having strict laws regarding religious insults, public hate speech towards any religion can help to avoid such chaos, killings. And yes, laws should be applicable to any one, be him Muslim, Christian, or atheist.

There are laws against hate speech. There are also laws to protect freedom of opinion. Both are necessary and both must be respected. It is a fine line between freedom of expression crosses over into hate and instigation.

Is a faith so weak and insecure that criticism or even insults prompt your adherents to engage in murder and mayhem?

And why should blasphemy be criminalized?

[Zunaid]

Originally Posted by Naimul_Hd
Exactly.

The point is why give them chances at the first place ? If they had known that making such movie/ cartoon and publishing it in public could fetch him strict punishment, then they probably wouldn't have made that.

This is an argument similar to the ones that blame the victim for being raped.

[Naimul_Hd]

Originally Posted by Zeeshan
I respect you a lot as BC and FB friend, but come'on that is the most illogical thing one can possibly write. Suppose I make fun of a Sikh man by calling him a "rapper", then according to Code of Hudarabi, that makes me a terrorist and so I should be slain for it?

Some tough love hein?

Lol...c'mon bro. Why bringing our love episode here. Our love has nothing to do with the discussion that we are having (or rather bashing that i am having from everyone)

[F6_Turbo]

I'd like to answer my own question.

Q. Why are muslims so violent and intolerant?

A. Because we are mental midgets. Harsh? I don't think so.

We are essentially teenagers. Teenagers fight, react, become belligerent. Teenagers get offended at anything and everything....teenagers feel like they have to defend their honor through payback.

Grown ups learn to live with differences, grown ups learn to turn the other cheek and be the bigger man.

Look at your own lives...look at how you reacted to friends/classmates/random guy you had a rivalry with, and now look at how you deal with an overbearing boss, a colleague who is a knobjockey or a hateful neighbor.

Yup...teenagers.

[Naimul_Hd]

Originally Posted by Zunaid
This is an argument similar to the ones that blame the victim for being raped.

Nope. I am saying if that rapist knows that punishment for rape is 'sentence to death' (for example), or 10 years of jail, then he would think thousand times before he commits such act. I know, despite rules, people break rules and spread violence. Its our human nature. But at least, strict laws can prevent/control our ill temptation.


Ps: Had enough evening adda. Now its time for cooking. Enjoy !

[inspyr9]

Zunaid, There is absolutely no justification for murder yet The west has killed how many innocent civilians in Iraq from the comfort of their drones and jets? Did you open a thread condemning that? If you did, my apology. When that US soldier killed 16 civilians in Afghanistan including many women and children, did you ask why Christians are so evil? If you did, my apology. I am tired of seeing my religion portrayed as evil and violent by the western media and sell outs all day long.
What about the '71 liberation war? Do you support the 'Muktijodhas' killing the Pakistani soldiers? Were those murders ok? If we didnt 'Murder' the Pakistanis, we would have this discussion in Pakpassion instead. You are saying what the other side did is irrelevant to what this side did. But every action has a reaction. The atrocities of 25th of March is not related to how we responded? I guess we should have just let them rape our sisters and kill our brothers right?

[Naimul_Hd]

Originally Posted by Zunaid
And why should blasphemy be criminalized?

Here are few examples which you may like to read:

- Ireland: In an 1842 judgement Sir Edward Sugden[157] refers to the successful prosecution in 1703 of Thomas Emlyn, a Unitarian mister who had written a book arguing that Jesus Christ was not the equal of God the Father. This appears to have been the first reported blasphemy prosecution in Irish law. The law would seem to have protected the beliefs of the Church of Ireland.

- Scotland: The last reported prosecution for blasphemy in Scotland was in 1843[159]. On 20 February 2003 the Scottish parliament passed a Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill which included a section on religious prejudice, originally introduced by Donald Gorrie MSP.

- Austria: Under Section 188 of the Penal Code "disparaging religious doctrines" is a criminal offence. [Attn: Zeeshan]

-Incitement to discrimination, hatred or violence vis-à-vis a group or community is a criminal offence. Article 144 of the Penal Code makes it an offence to insult religions at either places of religious worship or during public religious celebrations. Other articles of the Penal Code may be applied to writings, images, paintings, or films defaming religion, in particular, Articles 443-452 which penalize defamation, and Articles 383-386(bis), which penalize public offence to morals and sexuality. These articles have been applied to religious offences.

-Denmark: It is a criminal offence for local and satellite broadcasting to incite racial or religious hatred. While a law prohibiting blasphemy exists under Section 140 of the Danish Penal Code, it has not been used since 1938. The Danish Penal Code also contains a provision (Section 266b) against expressions that threaten, deride or degrade on the grounds of race, colour, national or ethnic origin, belief or sexual orientation.

- Germany: In Germany, Section 166 of the Criminal Code forbids insults to a religion or "Weltanschauung", publicly or by dissemination of publications. For an insult to be punishable under this law "the manner and content" of the insult must be such that an objective onlooker could reasonably apprehend that the insult would disturb the peace of those who share the insulted belief[162].

- Greece: Any person who promotes acts liable to provoke discrimination or violence towards individuals or groups because of their racial, ethnic or religious origin is guilty of a criminal offence. [ Attn: Zeeshan]

- Italy: Articles 402-406 of the Penal code forbid offence to religion, including offence to religion during a performance, even where the offending performance is objectively aimed at arousing amusement.

-The Netherlands: Blasphemy is a criminal offence under the Penal Code Article 147 (introduction and sub 1 Wetboek van Strefrecht), but this provision only covers expressions concerning God, and not saints and other revered religious figures ("godalaatering").

-Switzerland: Article 261 of the Penal Code makes it an offence publicly and maliciously to offend or ridicule another person's convictions in a matter of belief, or to profane a religion's objects of veneration, place of worship or religious article or act guaranteed by the Constitution.

Read More

Thanks.

[F6_Turbo]

Originally Posted by inspyr9
Zunaid, There is absolutely no justification for murder yet The west has killed how many innocent civilians in Iraq from the comfort of their drones and jets? Did you open a thread condemning that? If you did, my apology. When that US soldier killed 16 civilians in Afghanistan including many women and children, did you ask why Christians are so evil? If you did, my apology. I am tired of seeing my religion portrayed as evil and violent by the western media and sell outs all day long.
What about the '71 liberation war? Do you support the 'Muktijodhas' killing the Pakistani soldiers? Were those murders ok? If we didnt 'Murder' the Pakistanis, we would have this discussion in Pakpassion instead. You are saying what the other side did is irrelevant to what this side did. But every action has a reaction. The atrocities of 25th of March is not related to how we responded? I guess we should have just let them rape our sisters and kill our brothers right?

I'm not Zunaid...but I'd like to respond to this all the same....

-yes, plenty of threads on here about atrocities committed against muslims
-the US soldier didn't murder those civilians because he was Christian, he just happened to be Christian(surely you can see the distinction)

-Did you just try and equate someone making a stupid film...a bunch of terrorists then killing an innocent person over that film with our war of independence? I am gobsmacked tbh. I don't think I've read anything more offensive on this forum(I suppose my rage would justify me flying out to Cali and bashing your head in now???) Action and Reaction, right?


What you and others seem to have serious trouble with is....yes, every action has a reaction.

The issue is with the form and magnitude of that reaction, not the reaction itself.

[Zunaid]

Turbo said what you I would have said. Plus if inspyre9 is familiar with my posting history going back to the usenet days back in the early 90s - it will be obvious where I stand with respect to his questions. And I've always used my real name and not hidden behind a pseudonym and as such my life is as open as a Google search away.

But - what I find offensive (yes, offensive) in your response is the same thing that that riled F6 Turbo. Yes, it offends my sensibility.

Rinku - what you quote are proscriptions against hate speech. Not blasphemy. There's a huge difference. Criminalization of blasphemy is akin to legislating the correctness and superiority of one and only one doctrine and POV. This is incompatible with a society that believes in rights of individuals to have, profess and express their own beliefs. Incitement and hate speech are entirely different things. The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic - opined Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.'s (A justice of the SCOTUS).

And whether other benighted nations proscribe blasphemy does not mean I have to accept it.