Everything about Hinduism

[Roey Haque]

So I am an agnostic, don't really subscribe to any one faith or the other. But I can't help but notice in my spiritual seeking that Hinduism easily runs circles around the Abrahamic faiths in terms of philosophy? So many things are allowed, and you are supposed to be questioning everything while reaching your truths, which there can be many by the way.

I was wondering if anyone else feels the same way in their spiritual research/journey, irrespective of their faith or lack there of?

[BengaliPagol]

so are you saying abrahamic traditions don't tell you to question things and Hinduism does?

[DinRaat.]

BC swept by the PCorrect Army. Hopefully this is just a phase, was at a Khutbah at UNSW, Imam said "Is being normal the right thing to do nowadays"

[Roey Haque]

Originally Posted by BengaliPagol
so are you saying abrahamic traditions don't tell you to question things and Hinduism does?

Right. Would you know of anything that says otherwise? From my understanding, hell fires await you if don't follow the commandments of the holy books, and that some of the biggest commandments are keeping your faith,not associating any partners with god, believing in the legitimacy of Muhammad, and all that. Whatever amount of you research and soul seeking you do, you CANNOT come to the conclusion of god being more than one, or the falsehood of Muhammad. Right?

[tonmoy.dhaka]

Philosophically speaking.

None of the religion (Abrahamic or Otherwise including hinduism) would stand the test of human logic if you question everything.

[Yankees]

Hinduism is the oldest of all the religions. It's open, outward mentality has allowed it to not only survive for so long, but also allowed it to become the base on which other religions and thoughts were formed and developed - Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism. That deserves to be recognized.

The Eastern religions (add confucianism, Shinto to this list) don't deal in absolute terms (except Sikhism), whereas the Abrahamic Big 3 are all about total submission to 1 and only 1 absolute being, and rewarding those that submit – Do x, y, z and salvation awaits you!!! Yes YOU!

These are fundamental differences. Now if you think that setup allows one to ask questions, I would like to hear how.

[Yankees]

I think Roey is giving Hindus too much credit. The truth is they are no different than Abrahamic worshippers - pray to their respective deities without challenging the status quo.

I would argue that, for an agnostic, the "religion" of choice should be Buddhism or Jainism. That's because these aren't necessarily religions, but more of a philosophical way of life. To be a Buddhist is to seek enlightenment, to be a student of life. Jainsim is all about ahimsa. These are Godless practices, or rather, practices which doesn't pretend to know or claim of God's existence. Instead they are concerned with what you can do right here and right now. Buddha was a seeker of truth, not a preacher of God.

[tonmoy.dhaka]

Originally Posted by Yankees
I think Roey is giving Hindus too much credit. The truth is they are no different than Abrahamic worshippers - pray to their respective deities without challenging the status quo.

I would argue that, for an agnostic, the "religion" of choice should be Buddhism or Jainism. That's because these aren't necessarily religions, but more of a philosophical way of life. To be a Buddhist is to seek enlightenment, to be a student of life. Jainsim is all about ahimsa. These are Godless practices, or rather, practices which doesn't pretend to know or claim of God's existence. Instead they are concerned with what you can do right here and right now. Buddha was a seeker of truth, not a preacher of God.

Completely agree!!

Religion is also big business. Possibly the best business ever, you generate money by providing hope to people without ever having to deliver anything material in return.

[ToBeFair]

Originally Posted by Roey Haque
Right. Would you know of anything that says otherwise? From my understanding, hell fires await you if don't follow the commandments of the holy books, and that some of the biggest commandments are keeping your faith,not associating any partners with god, believing in the legitimacy of Muhammad, and all that. Whatever amount of you research and soul seeking you do, you CANNOT come to the conclusion of god being more than one, or the falsehood of Muhammad. Right?

To put concisely, this is the classic age old battle of reason vs revelation.

Islamic theologians and philosophers since the medieval ages have contemplated over the (apparent) clash between reason and revelation. The question was: what if human logic and reasoning conclude that revelation is false?

From Imam Ghazali to Ibn Taymia, scholars of different Islamic theological strands wrote volumes in answering this philosophical question. Seventh century polymath Ibn Taymiyya wrote a ten-volume work, Darʾ taʿāruḍ al-ʿaql wa-l-naql (‘Averting the Conflict of Reason with Revelation’). The conclusion of his work was following:

Since the origin of both the reason and revelation is same (God), there is actually no conflict between them.

To understand how he came to this conclusion, you have to read ten volumes. Fortunately, contemporary American scholar of Islam Dr. Yasir Qadhi did his phd on this topic where he summarized Ibn Taymiyya's work. His thesis is titled:

RECONCILING REASON AND REVELATION IN THE WRITINGS OF IBN TAYMIYYA (d. 728/1328): An Analytical Study of Ibn Taymiyya’s Darʾ al-t a ʿ ā r uḍ

You can read it here.

This is a difficult read.

If you want a layperson understanding of his Phd thesis, you may watch/listen to the following lectures:

Ibn Taymiyya: A Summary of Dr. Yasir Qadhi's dissertation at Yale University

The Human Fitrah - The pure innate nature of Man - Yasir Qadhi | 14th September 2012

Knowing God: Reason, Revelation, and Intuition - Yasir Qadhi

The Role of Revelation & Reason in a Post-Modernist Age ~ Dr. Yasir Qadhi | 30th April 2014

[Roey Haque]

Originally Posted by Yankees
I think Roey is giving Hindus too much credit. The truth is they are no different than Abrahamic worshippers - pray to their respective deities without challenging the status quo.

No my friend. That is what I used to think, that it's just deity worship. But actually there is no provision that says you must do it, it has become the culture where the community find solace in following traditions. With Hinduism, you are allowed to go in so many directions, including declaring yourself a Godman! This is a HUGE sin in the abrahamic traditions, but because you are free to question the nature of the truth in Hinduism, you can reach your own conclusions. It is even encouraged. So if you like Ganesha, good for you. If you think you are divine yourself, good for you, if you like atheism (yes, there is even room for atheism in the Vedas), then good for you, if you like Allah(which is just the arabic word for God), then good for you. Seeking and questioning is allowed.

As you rightly pointed out, it is open architecture, and thus it can birth so many new religions and ideas from it, and co exist harmoniously with others. I don't think Abrahamic faiths allow this. More disturbing is, two of the Abrahamic faiths, Islam and Christianity encourage proselytizing others, meaning they get rewarded if they can convert you.

But maybe I am mistaken about the abrahamic faiths, will try reading TobeFair's link.

[Yankees]

Originally Posted by Roey Haque
No my friend. That is what I used to think, that it's just deity worship. But actually there is no provision that says you must do it, it has become the culture where the community find solace in following traditions. With Hinduism, you are allowed to go in so many directions, including declaring yourself a Godman! This is a HUGE sin in the abrahamic traditions, but because you are free to question the nature of the truth in Hinduism, you can reach your own conclusions. It is even encouraged. So if you like Ganesha, good for you. If you think you are divine yourself, good for you, if you like atheism (yes, there is even room for atheism in the Vedas), then good for you, if you like Allah(which is just the arabic word for God), then good for you. Seeking and questioning is allowed.

Notice I said Hindus and not Hinduism. Your average hindu doesn't seek out Ganesh or Durga anymore than a Muslim seeks out Allah. They do it because they are taught to do it. Just because the flexibility is there doesn't mean it's utilized.

Originally Posted by Roey Haque
As you rightly pointed out, it is open architecture, and thus it can birth so many new religions and ideas from it, and co exist harmoniously with others. I don't think Abrahamic faiths allow this. More disturbing is, two of the Abrahamic faiths, Islam and Christianity encourage proselytizing others, meaning they get rewarded if they can convert you.

It's the holy version of multi-level marketing. That kind of reward system makes you question the motives.

[Roey Haque]

^ It seems like we agree. Let us check out ToBeFair's links.

So I have heard some of his lectures before, Yasir Qadri. In one lecture, he was saying not to study Islamic studies, because it makes you question your faith, and that he personally knew many people who left Islam after studying Islam. Highly ironic, ain't it?

[Roey Haque]

How about this. The Koran can't hold a candle to the Rigveda in terms of reason or philosophy. But the trick abrahamic faiths use is that of linear time, that their version of sacredness somehow co-opts everything said before. You can see the fallacies in this, but I won't go into that.

I want to focus on time itself. Linear, like the abrahamic faiths are so sure of. Or eternal (cyclical?) like the Dharmic faiths (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikkhism) espouse?

[SportingBD]

So I have heard some of his lectures before, Yasir Qadri. In one lecture, he was saying not to study Islamic studies, because it makes you question your faith, and that he personally knew many people who left Islam after studying Islam. Highly ironic, ain't it?

Can you please post a reference link to this? I would like to hear why he would say that.
It will also help me to understand that your not posting something made up about Yasir Qadri.

[mufi_02]

interesting thread.

honestly I do not much about Hinduism. I am not even sure what their holy book is. but growing up in BD, of course we are familiar with durga puja and their holy figures. but I noticed Indians (of non bengali origin) have their own customs and holidays. So I think it varies quiet a lot in practice among various regions.

finally, let's not make this into an interfaith discussion and who is right or wrong. I am just curious to know about hinduism. Would be nice to hear from fellow hindu BC members.

[Roey Haque]

Originally Posted by SportingBD
Can you please post a reference link to this? I would like to hear why he would say that.
It will also help me to understand that your not posting something made up about Yasir Qadri.

This was a while back, so I don't remember which video. But after doing a quick search on academic causing loss of faith, I think this was it.

[tonmoy.dhaka]

Since we are talking about hinduism.. I want to understand why some preachers of Monotheism scoff at some of these hindu practices and ideas but accepts similar ideas in Abrahamic religious teachings?

1/ I know people scoff at idol worship although it is purely symbolic. I dont think any hindus believe that they can make a god out of a stone. Muslims pray towards the direction of Kaaba which also symbolises the house of God. Similarly One of the rituals of Hajj is stoning the devil (which is nothing but a stone pillar). So why is one symbolism scoffed at while the other loved so much?

2/ We all consider the vedic texts (hindu literature ) as mythology (rightly so). We laugh at some of the extraordinary claims made in the literature, yet there are stories inside Abrahamic religions which defies any logic and no evidence to back up those extraordinary claims.

2a/ The extraordinary claim amongst muslims that the moon was split in two has no basis in facts. Ofcourse such an incident would generate severe panic, would be witnessed by masses and would have some literary evidence, but none exist. Not even going to speak about the impact it would have on the earths rotation.

2b/ Buraq (a beast that prophet used to travel to Jerusalem). Again, not sure anyone independently witnessed this mythical creature. Surely God does not need to send a creature to transport the prophet, He can just teleport the prophet. If the prophet did travel on the back of the creature, then the flight path has to be very low to the ground. It cannot be too fast (as claimed by many) or the G force would be too much for any man (and prophet is a man )... I can go on and on and on...

As i said, if you ask critical questions, there are no logical answers.. Faith is the only answer. I believe so it must be true.. Or as is the case with most, if I am wrong about God there is no harm, but if I am right, I will go to heaven. No loss scenario...

[SportingBD]

Originally Posted by Roey Haque
This was a while back, so I don't remember which video. But after doing a quick search on academic causing loss of faith, I think this was it.

Thank you

He did not say 'not to study Islamic studies'. Rather he said, he doesn't have answers to some of the doubtful questions/subjects.

[mufi_02]

okay this is turning out to be islam vs hinduism discussion. thus I am outta here

[Roey Haque]

^HAHAHA. Not yet. Everyone has been good thus far. But it can go wrong any moment, so let's be wary folks. I think Tonmoy raises some good points, let's wait and see if someone will answer them.

[BengaliPagol]

Originally Posted by Roey Haque
Right. Would you know of anything that says otherwise? From my understanding, hell fires await you if don't follow the commandments of the holy books, and that some of the biggest commandments are keeping your faith,not associating any partners with god, believing in the legitimacy of Muhammad, and all that. Whatever amount of you research and soul seeking you do, you CANNOT come to the conclusion of god being more than one, or the falsehood of Muhammad. Right?

The whole premise in Islam is that while you do reflect deeply and contemplate on the world around you and ponder and research and not just follow society then you will come to the conclusion that God exists and Prophet Muhammad SAW is the Last and final Messenger.

[This is] a blessed Book which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], that they might reflect upon its verses and that those of understanding would be reminded. (Sad 38:29)

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur’an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction. (An-Nisa‘ 4:82)

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur’an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts? (Muhammad: 24)

[This is] a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail from [one who is] Wise and Acquainted. (Hud 11:1)

Say, ‘O my Lord! Advance me in knowledge. (Taha 20:114)

“Do they not reflect in their own minds?” (30:8)

“Were they created from nothing or are they themselves the creators? Or did they create the heavens and earth? Nay but they see not.” (52: 35-36)

This is a message to all people, so that they may be warned by it, and know that He is the only God, and so that those who have minds may take heed (Qurʾān 14:52).

Verily! In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, there are indeed signs for men of understanding. Those who remember Allah, standing, sitting, and reclining, and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say): Our Lord! You have not created this in vain. Glory be to You! Protect us from the torment of the fire (Qurʾān 3:190-191).

The question lies how much has the person really genuinely looked at the religions searching for the Truth or how much is the person going by social norm, or whims and desires or possibly being a pure skeptic for the sake of being a skeptic.

[BengaliPagol]

Originally Posted by ToBeFair
To put concisely, this is the classic age old battle of reason vs revelation.

Islamic theologians and philosophers since the medieval ages have contemplated over the (apparent) clash between reason and revelation. The question was: what if human logic and reasoning conclude that revelation is false?

From Imam Ghazali to Ibn Taymia, scholars of different Islamic theological strands wrote volumes in answering this philosophical question. Seventh century polymath Ibn Taymiyya wrote a ten-volume work, Darʾ taʿāruḍ al-ʿaql wa-l-naql (‘Averting the Conflict of Reason with Revelation’). The conclusion of his work was following:

Since the origin of both the reason and revelation is same (God), there is actually no conflict between them.

To understand how he came to this conclusion, you have to read ten volumes. Fortunately, contemporary American scholar of Islam Dr. Yasir Qadhi did his phd on this topic where he summarized Ibn Taymiyya's work. His thesis is titled:

RECONCILING REASON AND REVELATION IN THE WRITINGS OF IBN TAYMIYYA (d. 728/1328): An Analytical Study of Ibn Taymiyya’s Darʾ al-t a ʿ ā r uḍ

You can read it here.

This is a difficult read.

If you want a layperson understanding of his Phd thesis, you may watch/listen to the following lectures:

The Human Fitrah - The pure innate nature of Man - Yasir Qadhi | 14th September 2012

Knowing God: Reason, Revelation, and Intuition - Yasir Qadhi

The Role of Revelation & Reason in a Post-Modernist Age ~ Dr. Yasir Qadhi | 30th April 2014

People worship rationalisation to such a degree. In Imam Ghazali's "Deliverance From Error" he talks about the Sufis really experiencing Truth. Rationalisation that people use need to be "checked" by something or have a bearing. An Atheist will use rationalisation to try assert God doesn't exist and a Theist will use rationalisation and use induction/deduction to show God exists. They are both using the same means to come to completely different conclusions.

So you have to ask yourself, how do you truly reach Truth? These are conversations that were had by theologians alike for many centuries and many books were written. So when I see random BC members make such blanket statements about religion being false if you are rational and yaddi yadda it is quite laughable to say the least because they choose to be selectively ignorant about topics and subject matters, more than likely their hate is coming from an emotional place rather than a logical one.

[Roey Haque]

Originally Posted by BengaliPagol
The whole premise in Islam is that while you do reflect deeply and contemplate on the world around you and ponder and research and not just follow society then you will come to the conclusion that God exists and Prophet Muhammad SAW is the Last and final Messenger.

Thank you for your clarification. So as I understand it, it's kind of like working backwards? You are declaring a premise as the absolute truth, and then rationalizing it by any means necessary.

Because if we DO partake in research and not just follow society, as you say, then we find inconsistencies in religion which cannot be explained. (read Tonmoy's post for example to see a list of intra-faith contradictions). Because when you shine a historical and geographical lens on any religion, you can explain away how the ideas came to be.

Now back to my original point, and purpose for creating the thread, at least the dharmic faiths tell me to be on a spiritual quest, and make up my mind. While the abrahamic faiths tell me that to tow the party line or else face hell fire. Yes, seeking is allowed like you say (through later interpretations I assume, because Koran is very clear on punishment for those who disbelieve), as long as you reach the same conclusion. But we cannot call that seeking then, if you are not willing to have your mind changed.

[One World]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...-a8503191.html


No -ism no cry

[Yankees]

Originally Posted by BengaliPagol
The whole premise in Islam is that while you do reflect deeply and contemplate on the world around you and ponder and research and not just follow society then you will come to the conclusion that God exists and Prophet Muhammad SAW is the Last and final Messenger.

So you're allowed to contemplate as long as you come to the same conclusion? And what if you don't, then what? It seems what you've said is actually in agreement with Roey even if you didnt intend to.

Originally Posted by BengaliPagol
The question lies how much has the person really genuinely looked at the religions searching for the Truth or how much is the person going by social norm, or whims and desires or possibly being a pure skeptic for the sake of being a skeptic.

I disagree with that. Most muslims live within muslim societies. If aything, it's the other way around. Society plays a heavy hand in a Muslims belief system. And btw, nobody is a skeptic for the sake of being a skeptic. That kind of dismissive tone only weakens your position. A healthy dose of skepticism does the world a lot of good.