Cruelty against the living

[BANFAN]

Plant to Animals that we eat has life. Only thing is that we can hear the shouts of an animal and we don't hear the noise, neither the movement of the plants.

What is cruel to you, to kill/torture a healthy person or a deaf/dumb/or physically/emntally challenged in different way? By all human qualities & standards I'm sure you will even agree to excuse a challenged person, than a healthy one and killing / torture of a challenged person will be viewed to be more cruel by every one. You will be more angry if some one kills (God Forbid) your deaf and dumb brother than a healthy one.

Why shouldn't cutting/killing a plant be more cruel? Just because it can't shout like a cow? It's no more a secret that the plants do feel pain during the entire process. Infact the pain lasts as long as it is alive, and it is aive for much longer period than an animal.

While we breath we inhale & also kill a huge number of microbes, which are all living beings. Can we live without killing lives? infact the universe is created in that manner and all living beings are living for others I.e ulimately for the Human beings. The best of the creatures.

See the animals live on veg; they don't have the appropriate teeth for the meat, appropriate digestive engymes for meat. while the meat eating animals don't have the grass eating set of teeth neither they have the engymes to digest grass/veg. Human being have both set of teeth and digestive engymes. if we were destined to eat only veg we would have those abilities.

Rabindra nath is better taken as a poet/writer; I don't like to propmote/demote him to a religious figure, he was involved with the 'Brahma Shamaz' and they have a lots of major deviation from the mainstream hindu religion. A lots of things from Buddhism came in to it and have more similarity to islam. But let his faith part be left alone.

if you want to discuss the legality/logic of meat eating or disapprove on cruelty ground, I think Budism has more back up logic than Tagore to get the discussion going. Of course Islam & Science has more reason for eating meat.

[Imteaz]

Strange debate is going on.

[goru]

I eat meat 'cause I don't want vaginitis!

[Kabir]

Sorry m, but in this thread you sound so much like 'Peace'.

[m]

Originally Posted by BANFAN
Plant to Animals that we eat has life. Only thing is that we can hear the shouts of an animal and we don't hear the noise, neither the movement of the plants.

What is cruel to you, to kill/torture a healthy person or a deaf/dumb/or physically/emntally challenged in different way? By all human qualities & standards I'm sure you will even agree to excuse a challenged person, than a healthy one and killing / torture of a challenged person will be viewed to be more cruel by every one. You will be more angry if some one kills (God Forbid) your deaf and dumb brother than a healthy one.

Why shouldn't cutting/killing a plant be more cruel? Just because it can't shout like a cow? It's no more a secret that the plants do feel pain during the entire process. Infact the pain lasts as long as it is alive, and it is aive for much longer period than an animal.

While we breath we inhale & also kill a huge number of microbes, which are all living beings. Can we live without killing lives? infact the universe is created in that manner and all living beings are living for others I.e ulimately for the Human beings. The best of the creatures.

See the animals live on veg; they don't have the appropriate teeth for the meat, appropriate digestive engymes for meat. while the meat eating animals don't have the grass eating set of teeth neither they have the engymes to digest grass/veg. Human being have both set of teeth and digestive engymes. if we were destined to eat only veg we would have those abilities.

Rabindra nath is better taken as a poet/writer; I don't like to propmote/demote him to a religious figure, he was involved with the 'Brahma Shamaz' and they have a lots of major deviation from the mainstream hindu religion. A lots of things from Buddhism came in to it and have more similarity to islam. But let his faith part be left alone.

if you want to discuss the legality/logic of meat eating or disapprove on cruelty ground, I think Budism has more back up logic than Tagore to get the discussion going. Of course Islam & Science has more reason for eating meat.

BANFAN,

What you have written above can be summarized in two lines:
1. Plants do feel pain, so consuming vegetables is same as consuming animals.
2. Rabindranath does not deserve to be brought into discussion regarding cruelty to animals.

For #1: First, please present your source. No, we cannot live without killing, but can we do that without inflicting pain? And without inflicting the sense of loss of life to the killed?
Now, here is one information, in case we do establish that plants experience pain the same way animals does: It takes ten times as much land to produce food for an average American compared to a pure vegetarian. source

For #2: I did not quote Rabindranath as a religious spokesman. And his involvement with ‘Brahma Shamaz’ doesn’t make all his talks religious either. I happened to put an answer in MJeeshan's Jeopardy thread quoting this quote of Rabindranath and it occurred to me that I could start this thread starting with this quote, nothing else. And I have posed my question with no religious intonation whatsoever.

[m]

Originally Posted by Kabir
Sorry m, but in this thread you sound so much like 'Peace'.

Ok, let me try a bit to be different than ‘Peace’

“…in this thread…”: This implies that in other threads I sound different. So I characterize diversity, which is a beauty of life. So, thanks for the compliment!

“…sound so much like ‘Peace’…”: When you try to trade a block of thoughts with another, by saying “…sound so much like…”, it may, among others, mean one or more of the following:
1. The tone is same.
2. The arguments are incomplete or unsound in a similar fashion.
3. The arguments are sound in a similar fashion.

If it is #1 then I am responsible.

If it is #2 then it is firstly your failure, for not being able to enunciate the unsoundness, and potentially my failure, in case my arguments really are unsound. And the onus is on you to enunciate the unsoundness rather than shooting a generalized comment.

If it is #3 then it is your failure, for not being able to enunciate the soundness, and potentially my success, in case my arguments really are sound. And you need not sweat further, cuz I would rather not unearth any hidden unsoundness in my apparently sound arguments.

“Sorry m…”: This is ominous. Sounds like whatever similarity you have found with the poor guy “Peace”, is not all that excitable and it rather pushes towards the #2 above. But then, I have already laid out the drill for you.

Finally,
“…like ‘Peace’”: That’s quite ambiguous. Peace sounds good, but not so sure about ‘Peace’. Ok, so it’s a person. And even though I remember seeing this nick around and reading his posts, can’t exactly remember this guy conjuring up a whole paradigm, that another paradigm can be compared with. But I will go with the more amiable implication of it. After all, this thread was meant for peace

Ok, now don’t bother to respond to the above. It was just an attempt to be different than ‘Peace’. Peace!

[Kabir]

Lol. That wasn't any different bro...Peace would always come up with similar arguments in his defense

[m]

Originally Posted by Kabir
Lol. That wasn't any different bro...Peace would always come up with similar arguments in his defense

Dang! That's depressing. All ado for nothing. Okay, how about this: those arguments were not to defend myself, just an attempt to be different. Would Peace try to do that too?

[Kabir]

Lol. M bhai, apner shonge ami faislami kortesi. Roja'r maash ta ke ektu anondomoy kore tular ichchay eita kortesi.

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by m
BANFAN,

summarized in two lines:
1. Plants do feel pain, so consuming vegetables is same as consuming animals.
2. Rabindranath does not deserve to be brought into discussion regarding cruelty to animals.

For #1: First, please present your source. No, we cannot live without killing, but can we do that without inflicting pain? And without inflicting the sense of loss of life to the killed? Now, here is one information, in case we do establish that plants experience pain the same way animals does: It takes ten times as much land to produce food for an average American compared to a pure vegetarian. source

For #2: I did not quote Rabindranath as a religious spokesman. And his involvement with ‘Brahma Shamaz’ doesn’t make all his talks religious either. I happened to put an answer in MJeeshan's Jeopardy thread quoting this quote of Rabindranath and it occurred to me that I could start this thread starting with this quote, nothing else. And I have posed my question with no religious intonation whatsoever.

M Bhai; this is the only line line of defense you have:

Now, here is one information, in case we do establish that plants experience pain the same way animals does: It takes ten times as much land to produce food for an average American compared to a pure vegetarian.

Pain issue is scientific facts and you can juts check it on line even.

No arguments; just tell me if we don't eat animal to avoid cruelty will the animal increase or reduce? So by eating animal are we saving land for the vegies? any way are we running short of land to produce veg? What do you mean by American (Human, Animal, Veg, Non Veg etc)? Who are these Vegies (American/Indian/Human/animal)?

You can consult any neutritionist; You don't get allkinds of food value in one type of food. A balanced food should consist of Veg & Non Veg both. There are some form of proteins which are only available in meat.

This Veg/Non Veg is so stupid & dumb debate. Still we are doing it

[Puck]

Originally Posted by m
Thanks for the replies. Seems like no one has actually responded to the question, except for Banglatiger84.

I will pose the issue in a more structured way here.

1. What is your take on the cruelty issue that Rabindranath has raised in his letter?
2. If you don't concur with him, why so? (we already have someone who has answered to this question, which was actually a delegation of the judgment to superior being)
3. If you do concur, then

a. Why so?
b. How big a deal, do you think, it is, with respect to general human value structure.
c. What you think we can do about it.

I am not asking anyone to follow this structure while responding to this thread, just in case someone looked for one.

I would really like to know what you guys think, and would especially ask for the opinions of the likes of Shaad, Zunaid, Sohel NR, puck, goru, Al Furqaan, Nasif et. al. Not to discriminate others, just few names those came to my mind.

i am a vegetarian. i have been a vegetarian since february 1995. after a semi-serious operation in late 2006, my doctor advised that oily fish might be good for the recovery process, especially if i wanted to go back to my usual running and cycling regime. so i ate fish once a day for the next few months. now i only eat fish when visiting an elderly friend who had always found it difficult to cater for me in the past.

i enjoyed the taste of meat rather a lot when i was a carnivore. do i miss it? yes, i certainly miss the taste of the biriani dishes cooked by my late maternal grandfather, who amongst other virtues possessed an ability to turn the simples ingredients into a culinary delight. i miss 'salted', cured cold beef that my mother made from the qurbani meat. would i eat such delights again if i moved back to dhaka tomorrow? there is no chance of the biriani, however, i would taste the salted meat if it pleased my mother but would certainly remind her why i don't eat meat, and would obstinately refuse any 'salted' from qurbani meat as animal sacrifice in this day and age is simply abhorrent. i disliked vegetables as a child. i still have a dislike for the mushy vegetables prepared as part of curried dishes.

animals reared for human feed are factory treated to such an extent that the reason for their entire existence appears to be human consumption. the organic movement is a step in the right direction, however, the success of it depends on reducing the amount of meat we consume. unless advised on health grounds, i can't think of a reason why i would eat meat again. i am not offended by others enjoying meat in my presence. i certainly would not wish to ban the consumption of meat products overnight. however, i would like to see a great reduction in its consumption, perhaps two third less that what we consume today. ultimately, i would like to see the end to killing of animals for natural consumption, however, this must be a gradual process of learning to appreciate the benefit of a vegetarian diet. i would also like to see different methods of slaughtering animals. sedating the animal or putting it to sleep before chopping off its head seems more humane.

the creation of animal feed and the animals themselves greatly add to the greenhouse gases. meat is rather more expensive as the main constituent of any meal. the hunter gatherer society that our distant ancestors lived through made meat, naturally grown fruits and vegetables the only feed. with the advent of farming the ancient man ate more cereals as it would last longer in the warmer climes, and the scarcity of animals to hunt in the colder climes also made the cereals staple. rearing animals in small farms guaranteed the supply of meat in all weather conditions. however, meat had traditionally been a rich man's food. the poor ate less and certainly less meat. the roman soldiers on the march were given rations of bread with high protein content and olive oil. the soldiers would forage and hunt outside of formal marches to battles, but the reason for this lay in how meat is digested. the digestion process would be much longer based on a meat based meal so an army prone to ambushes would not be able to fight adequately after a heavy meal.

we are not an army on the march here although some of the mullahs certainly seem to think so. we lead sedentary lives. we need more exercise to burn off the calories. come to think of it, there are very few fat vegetarians!

[Puck]

Originally Posted by BANFAN
M Bhai; this is the only line line of defense you have:


You can consult any neutritionist; You don't get allkinds of food value in one type of food. A balanced food should consist of Veg & Non Veg both. There are some form of proteins which are only available in meat.

This Veg/Non Veg is so stupid & dumb debate. Still we are doing it

a NUTRITIONIST would advise the patient that any balanced diet should contain protein, carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals and water. however, a 'neutritionist' might well advise you the trite assumed above

animal protein is certainly different to vegetable protein, however, unless one if training to be a professional athlete, vegetable protein is an adequate substitute. vegetarianism had been practised in ancient india and it did not stop them from being any less sophisticated than other contemporary cultures. indian vegetarians have the lowest rate of cancer anywhere in the world.

[BD-Shardul]

Originally Posted by Puck
would obstinately refuse any 'salted' from qurbani meat as animal sacrifice in this day and age is simply abhorrent.

Arabs eat camels. So, the number of camels remain balanced. The Australian's don't. Their camel population increased so much that they are now shooting down camels reduce their numbers.

See: Australia considers mass killings of camels



FILE - In this undated file photo released by the Central Australian Camel Industry Association, ranchers in Alice Springs, central Australia use a truck to chase and catch a camel roaming wild on the property. Mere months after the Australian government ordered the shooting of thousands of kangaroos to help control their population, officials are now considering sending marksmen into the Outback in helicopters to take aim at another fast-growing group of pests: camels.
(AP Photo/Central Australian Camel Industry Association, File)

[m]

Originally Posted by BANFAN
M Bhai; this is the only line line of defense you have:



Pain issue is scientific facts and you can juts check it on line even.

No arguments; just tell me if we don't eat animal to avoid cruelty will the animal increase or reduce? So by eating animal are we saving land for the vegies? any way are we running short of land to produce veg? What do you mean by American (Human, Animal, Veg, Non Veg etc)? Who are these Vegies (American/Indian/Human/animal)?

You can consult any neutritionist; You don't get allkinds of food value in one type of food. A balanced food should consist of Veg & Non Veg both. There are some form of proteins which are only available in meat.

This Veg/Non Veg is so stupid & dumb debate. Still we are doing it

Dear BANFAN,
I didn't really want to debate on this issue. I just wanted to bring attention to something that, to an extent, an unnecessary cruelty that can be avoided at individual's discretion. And it has been very common for people to defend their position by citing the cruelty in the alternatives, whatever lesser in extent that might be. But one thing I have learned, and that is, the moment one starts arguing on this issue, it becomes a futile effort. Argument is almost all about logic and often, to a good extent, about ego, both of which marginalizes the main proponent of this issue, which is the call to empathy. So, even if we settle our disagreements, it is not going to have the desired effect that I had meant this thread for.

As for your points, I have asked you to provide source on your comment about plants having pain, but instead you are asking me to search for it. I did search and yet to find anything to that effect. So, unless you produce your source, please refrain from repeating it again.

When I mentioned about 10 times land, what I meant to say is that the cattle and poultry feed on plants, and by the time a non-veg gets food on their table, they indirectly consume 10 times as plants as a vegetarian would. Now, I am really not as concern about this statistics, since I am yet to learn whether that amounts to perpetrating 10 times cruelty in the sense that I am talking about. That information was for you, showing you that if you really believe that plant suffer equal pain, and then you have option to either inflict that pain to 1 acre of plant and 10 acres of plant, what option would you take. Especially when you yourself came up with the analogy between inflicting pain on a healthy individual and a challenged one. But then, if you consider having empathy to non-humans to be stupid then it's a non-issue.

And again, vege-diet is good enough for a regular person. I did consult with nutritioninst and I did not get the idea that I could not do without meat.

The last three paragraphs were for academic reason. Since you find this "debate" stupid and dumb, I really don't see any reason to argue with you on the cruelty issue.

[BD-Shardul]

Cruelty against animals: Animals skinned alive for furs

(Don't watch this video if you have a weak heart like me)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zASomfy7zwA

I can't conceive that such inhumane people exist in this earth. If I am given all the wealth of this world, I will not be able to do this. And people are doing it for money.

[mona]

Originally Posted by BD-Shardul
Cruelty against animals: Animals skinned alive for furs

(Don't watch this video if you have a weak heart like me)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zASomfy7zwA

I can't conceive that such inhumane people exist in this earth. If I am given all the wealth of this world, I will not be able to do this. And people are doing it for money.

I don't think there's any point in questioning why people do this anymore.

I've been too much of a fan of meat all my life to look into vegetarianism but my friend recently showed me a video which no humane person could ignore (Meet your Meat). I have no moral issues with eating meat, I even advocate scientific research using animals. BUT if me eating meat means animals get treated in even a fraction of the way they do in that video then NO THANKS. It's funny to think that all these years I've had no idea where the food I eat every day has come from. But as they say, ignorance is bliss. Shame on you to those who mocked 'm' for opening up this thread, just because you like eating meat. That's so not the issue here. It's not enough to say 'as long as they are treated humanely' because you know what? THEY'RE NOT. For those of you who are brave enough, at least take the plunge and take the effort to find out more and then decide.

And please bringing plants and $hit into this just detracts from the real issue even further.

[Purbasha T]

Speechless!

[auntu]

অসম্ভব...২০ সেকেন্ডের বেশী সহ্য করা সম্ভব হয় নাই।

[ialbd]

and i thought my heart & mind were strong enough from all the Qurbanis I have taken part in....

This fur-trades and skin flaying wont stop, so just do this small favor to these poor creatures.... Kill them first.... atleast let them have a painless exit from this ever cruel world... !!!

[uss01]

I am a muslim and have seen many korbanis when I was young. Everytime I felt sad for the animals, which is why I stopped watching the korbanis. However I still enjoy eating meat and will probably never stop.

However, I believe just because we kill animals for food does not mean it's okay to torture them before we kil them. On TV I have seen how some animals and birds are dragged through the butcher house, hit, abused, etc which is terrible. They should be treated well prior to their killings.

Even in the way we kill them should be done in the least possible painful way. Hence I support the halal way of killing (slaughtering slowly and letting the blood drain out slowly, etc).

[One World]

Cruelty has many faces.

Another giraffe dies at Dhaka Zoo
Priyo News Dhaka, Monday, October 5, 2009 - 11:11pm
Another giraffe died at Dhaka Zoo this morning. This is the third death of giraffe in a row at Dhaka Zoo after two other giraffes died from dehydration on September 8 and 30. Zoo sources said the giraffe have been suffering from illness since September 23 and suddenly collapsed this morning.

It was among five giraffes brought from South Africa in June last year. With the deaths of three giraffes, their number dwindled to two now. With this, a total of 23 rare animals died at the zoo in one year. Earlier, a sambar deer died in the first week of May. In March, a baboon, a wildebeest and the last member of Malayan tapir died. One Royal Bengal Tiger, two freshwater crocodiles, one zebra and a lesser adjutant stork died in February.

The zoo is located on about 186 acres of land in Mirpur housing more than 2,000 animals of 157 species. Of them, 57 species are mammals including elephant, Royal Bengal Tiger, lion, cheetah, rhinoceros, zebra, monkey, chimpanzee, and hippo. There are 61 species of birds, 11 species of reptiles including snakes and crocodiles and 28 species of fish. Around 10,000 people visit this poorly managed zoo every day.

-Daily Star

In earlier reports it was mentioned that the caretakers are not feeding the animals well and not taking care with proper medicines in case of injury or illness.

[Fazal]

I also feel bad about them...like to think some day I will be a vegetarian..... but boy those Khashir Birianis, chicken roast, bhuna mogoj, shik kabaabs, mutton Kabaabs, Bhuna gorur Gosto, haaser mansho, nehari, .... its so hard to resist... then I think ok not this month, I will be vegetarian next month.... and this cycle keeps on going on over and over.

[uss01]

Ok Fazal you have just made me hungry just thinking of those great food items. I'm looking forward to visiting Bangladesh this winter just for the food actually . And the sweets too.

Originally Posted by Fazal
I also feel bad about them...like to think some day I will be a vegetarian..... but boy those Khashir Birianis, chicken roast, bhuna mogoj, shik kabaabs, mutton Kabaabs, Bhuna gorur Gosto, haaser mansho, nehari, .... its so hard to resist... then I think ok not this month, I will be vegetarian next month.... and this cycle keeps on going on over and over.