Shakib's 'laziness': Should we be worried?

[Gowza]

Originally Posted by BengaliPagol
We wonder how many talented playes like aftab, alok etc are lost? I think laziness is the key. Aftab said he doesnt like to train. Is laziness why we lose so many talented players? Is laziness why we are ranked below the big guys in the world. I think so.
We are really lucky that Shakib is overly talented or else we wouldve lost him with the other ones.

We wonder why Tamim keeps doing the same mistakes. Is it because they dont work hard enough on improvement? Is why Bangladesh arent a consistent team?

Many talented bd players become lost and have a fall from grace. We have to admit that the list is never ending. Is this because they become lazy? I think so, it makes sense why so many talented players seem to be myths.

It all comes together.

Posted via BC Mobile Edition (Opera Mobile)

yes well we often see them do well in u19s, do well domestically then get to the national team, pull in a couple of good performances early on and then go downhill from there. seems like the goal is just to make the team and not necessarily succeed once there.....

[BengaliPagol]

Originally Posted by Gowza
yes well we often see them do well in u19s, do well domestically then get to the national team, pull in a couple of good performances early on and then go downhill from there. seems like the goal is just to make the team and not necessarily succeed once there.....

Not trying to suceed at top level cricket is being lazy. This makes sense. Laziness is putting the team down.

Posted via BC Mobile Edition (Opera Mobile)

[Sohel]

Echoing Ian's post here, Shakib should realize a couple of basic facts:

1) He'll become an even better player if and when he finds a better way to "stay loose" other than simply being lazy. "Active rest" when not preparing for a particular series or tournament is the way to go IMHO.

2) Not everyone has the immense talent and strength of character Shakib has been blessed with -- though they or some of their tragically misguided fans may think otherwise (solid technique/exquisite timing/top class ODI-test opener) -- and won't get away with what Shakib gets away with in the middle. A lazy Shakib, being the best Bangladeshi player to date, sets a bad example for younger guys coming into international cricket and in the pipeline.

We have a cricket culture where guys don't work hard on their own to begin with, I think only Ashraful of all people does, and Shakib's laziness gives more false excuses to procrastinate and underachieve.

[oronnya]

Ok, I was 100% supporting the fact that Shakib needs to work harder to achieve more..

But now we are like blaming him for the entire team being lazy !!!

When Shakib-Tamim-Mushy started whom did they follow? Ashraful? May be they did but they were well aware of what not to follow from him and that's how they became more successful than Ashraful.. Same with our next generation of cricketers..They have to know their strength and limitations rather than just blindly copying them.. Some people get it in one shot and some needs to practice thousand times.. Now Shakib is not that brilliant that he gets everything right in one shot.. Of course he had to practice.. Otherwise how did he overcome many of his shortcomings?? He himself said despite being lazy he is a determined player and if he had to fix something he goes above and beyond to do that.. So let's just not say he is here today only based on his talents.. He doesn't have half the talent that Ashraful has.. So he does his fair share of hard work..that's how he have been improving day by day.. But of course he can do more and he realizes that as per his interview..

[Ian Pont]

Originally Posted by BengaliPagol
We wonder why talented players like aftab, alok etc become lost. I think laziness is the key. Aftab said he doesnt like to train. Is laziness why we lose so many talented players? Is laziness why we are ranked below the big guys in the world. I think so.
We are really lucky that Shakib is overly talented or else we wouldve lost him with the other ones.

We wonder why Tamim keeps doing the same mistakes. Is it because they dont work hard enough on improvement? Is this why Bangladesh arent a consistent team?

Many talented bd players become lost and have a fall from grace. We have to admit that the list is never ending. Is this because they become lazy? I think so, it makes sense why so many talented players seem to become myths.

It all comes together.

And finally the penny drops....

There is a saying: if you keep on doing what you've been doing, then you will keep on getting what you've been getting. So if the national team wants to perform better, then this has to be changed.

The board will go round and round looking for 'suitable' head coaches. A coach stays a year or so then leaves. The team goes up a bit, the team goes down a bit. Nothing really changes. Bigger names come to run the cricket. More money is spent. Fans speculate. Media makes up stories. Everyone gets excited. "Bangladesh is going to win the world cup now". Coaches arrive saying "there is a huge amount of talent in the country". A win or two against a higher ranked side. Losses to associates. People try to work out if the coaches are good enough. "Give them more time". Players come and go. Some stay when they shouldn't.

There is one thing that doesn't change though and now we are getting to the answer at last.

The truth is, any professional coach could take the national team and make it into something better. But no professional coach will ever make a lasting impact unless the cricket attitude changes.

[oronnya]

So BD team is full of some lazy losers???

[max410]

dont forget SHakib also studies in AIUB (university) maybe he is giving time to that as well besides training maybe he gives time to other things in life and he probably trains as much as he needs to but its important overall to keep training

[oronnya]

Originally Posted by max410
dont forget SHakib also studies in AIUB (university) maybe he is giving time to that as well besides training maybe he gives time to other things in life and he probably trains as much as he needs to but its important overall to keep training

mmm that shouldn't be a reason as the other players have some other priorities in life as well (Like Mushy his doing is Master's )

But saying Shakib has reached the level where he is today only based on his talents and no hard work is like belittling his achievements !! We all know what sort of player he was when he started his career .. He was never considered as the next big thing.. But he improved his game with each passing year.. Take the example of the Pak series .. In the ODIs his batting was simply poor but then he came back with a 144 in the test.. I don't think he achieved that without practice and hard work..He does work hard whenever he feels like he needs to improve in certain area.. Not everyone enjoys the traditional style of education/training .. Rabi Thakur hated going to school but at the end was he any less knowledgeable than the others who did? Having said that I do want Shakib to take those taining/practice session more seriously as that will help him to grow as a solid cricketer..

[Maysun]

Our players should perhaps read this before they go for training

"The worst thing I can be is the same as everybody else. I hate that." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

[BengaliPagol]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
The truth is, any professional coach could take the national team and make it into something better. But no professional coach will ever make a lasting impact unless the cricket attitude changes.

I had a feeling this was going on in the team. The attitude just isnt there. People who say that the coaches have to work the attitude out in the team is wrong. The coach cant change the attitude of the team. The team have to have the attitude in themselves.

This is why i opened up the thread. To find out if Shakibs laziness is bad because coaches seem to mention about it. And second of all if its affecting the playing group as a whole. I think we have found the answer.

I dont know how this issue will be resolved though. They cant keep us fans waiting for results...

[playmaker]

Lazy or not shakib is shakib, yes, he should practice a bit more but he has something called confidence. He is one kind of player who will jump onto the scene and make sure that He will dominate. Guys like Imrul, SN, and few others have worked so hard, where is the result? Its a matter of determination.

We should be more worried of our players attitude rather than thinking about their work ethic

[BengaliPagol]

Originally Posted by playmaker
Lazy or not shakib is shakib, yes, he should practice a bit more but he has something called confidence. He is one kind of player who will jump onto the scene and make sure that He will dominate. Guys like Imrul, SN, and few others have worked so hard, where is the result? Its a matter of determination.

We should be more worried of our players attitude rather than thinking about their work ethic

Maybe guys like Imrul didnt work hard enough to improve. They also do not have the talent to be as good as Shakib. Hence they dont have the results

[Gowza]

also shakib is like a poineer for BD cricket, he's gone through doors that no other BD player has been able to e.g. ipl, county cricket, world #1. the bad thing is when he goes to county cricket and doesn't train because everyone will base the BD attitude on his. so now the county circuit know that shakib doesn't like to train, it a) makes it harder for shakib to actually get a county contract for himself and b) it quite possibly will make it harder for other BD players to get a contract because county teams will think that BD players aren't as dedicated as other players and they won't want to watse one of their overseas spot's.

[BengaliPagol]

Originally Posted by Gowza
it quite possibly will make it harder for other BD players to get a contract because county teams will think that BD players aren't as dedicated as other players and they won't want to watse one of their overseas spot's.

Spot on

He is the advocate of Bangladesh Cricket.

[oronnya]

Originally Posted by BengaliPagol
Maybe guys like Imrul didnt work hard enough to improve. They also do not have the talent to be as good as Shakib. Hence they dont have the results

What about Ashraful?? He has the talent and he works hard !!! Still doesn't get the result!!

If others can point finger at Shakib and says he doesn't work hard then Shakib can do the same by pointing fingers at senior players like Ash and say working hard didn't benefit the players of Ash's talent.. So foget about the tend setting.. Each player is different and requires different amount of effort ..Also the grey matter has to be there to realize their strengths and weaknesses and play accordingly..They can't just blame their role model for their incompetancy..

Shakib is lazy only by his standard and he can achieve so much more by putting in that extra bit of effort..

[Ian Pont]

I don't think anyone is blaming Shakib for the team. Without Shakib at the moment the side would not be even close to what it is.

The overall point being made is this:

1. Shakib could be far better than he is
2. People look up to Shakib, so what he does is often (mistakenly) copied by others
3. A professional team always has to work hard as a unit to get better
4. Before you can improve what you do you have to acknowledge responsibility for it
5. When you are a 'professional' at anything you shouldn't have an amateur attitude to just get by and do as little as you can - however wonderful you are

There are always unique players. There are always those who do things totally against what you would expect. Some have success despite being different. Let's celebrate that. But it is not a working model for everyone else.

I feel posters on BCF are starting to realise the difficulty successive coaches have had in Bangladesh. You can be a coaching success outside of BD but find it tough to make inroads with the BD team.

People who work hard without talent, are a coaching dream. People who are talented but don't work hard, are a coaching nightmare.

[BengaliPagol]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
People who work hard without talent, are a coaching dream. People who are talented but don't work hard, are a coaching nightmare.

So coaching the Bangladesh Cricket Team is a coaches nightmare?

[Tiger444]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
Solid post.

Those of us working in biomechanics (movement of the body) teach 10,000 repetitions for muscle memory to be correctly learned. It simply means if you want to make a particular skill 'natural' (or change something to be natural) it takes 10,000 repetitions of it. It would explain why doing way less than this leads to it being inconsistent under pressure.

How many times have fans come on here and said "so and so doesn't move his feet" or that "such and such a player played some crazy shot"? The reason is they have not practiced what the OUGHT to do enough (nets) and therefore will constantly go out and under perform.

When you are under pressure you revert to what your sub-conscious has learned and done all day long. You teach the changes by training the changes over that length of time.

Test batting averages, which are the genuine measure of a batsman's skill, whilst they don't tell the whole story certainly tell a large part of it.

"World Class" batsmen: Kallis 57.44, Sangakarra 56.25, Tendulkar 56.02, Trott 55.75, Younis Khan 53.20, Ponting 53,44, Sehwag 52.21 explain why they are where they are.

A random sample of Bangladesh batsmen: Shakib 34.68, Tamim 38.00, Nasir 29.58, Ash 22.60, Nazimmudin 30.25, Imrul 17.15 explain why they are where they are. Plus we have to remember that the Bangladesh stats are mostly against lesser ranked teams too.

Matt Prior who bats at 7 for England, averages 43.09 in Tests as a comparison.

Only the Bangladesh players can do something about that. If players are happy just to be in the side then there's not much hope. If they want to become the best they can, then the coaches can make something of them.

To be the best, you have to beat the best - consistently, day in, day out. It starts on the training ground and in the gym. The coaches have always been there to help.

Whenever someone points the finger of blame at someone else, always look where his other fingers are pointing.

Coach Ian, your posts have been great to read as usual on this thread. However, I believe that this comparison of the world class batsmen with our batsmen is like comparing apples to oranges. Some of those guys you just mentioned are legends of the game or are future legends whereas our guys are still works in progress.

I know that people are sick and tired of this excuse but our batsmen are still very young and I see other young batsmen around the world having problems in the Test version of the game as well. Chris Rogers of Australia just wrote a long article about how the likes of Hughes, Khawaja, and Marsh have all struggled. Then you also see how Raina, Vijay, Mukund of India have all struggled in the Test arena as well. Shafiq and Umar Akmal of Pakistan have also underachieved. Then Barath, Brathwaite and Powell of West Indies have all struggled as well. And I'm sure the younger guys of South Africa and England would struggle as well when they come in to Tests as well.

Our team is more on display because we don't have a single batsman that's above the age of 30 whereas all these teams I just mentioned still have experienced batsmen. It still does not change the fact that all these young guys in world cricket are just flat out struggling. You're an expert so you would obviously understand better then me but it seems that the problem of this generation's batsmen has been that their too focused on more innovative ways to score their runs rather then focusing on art of a defensive technique. Therefore you see a lot of brain fades and basic technical flaws. So I feel the Bangladeshi batsmen are just a sample size to a much bigger problem in world cricket.

[betaar]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
There is either a team work ethic or there is not. Imagine how you might feel as coach if certain senior players were having lunch while the rest of the team trained hard, as an example situation? If you guys recall this was allegedly one incident in a string of events that led to Shakib and Tamim losing their captaincy and vice captaincy following the awful and ill-fated Zimbabwe tour.

It's all in the past and everyone has moved on but Stuart will have had to deal with those moments. For individuals who are talented then, should a coach/team/management make allowances and let them be lazy?

This isn't just about one player in the end. I think it's about being a team. The team is always far bigger than any individual.

Oh Ian, you just touched a pinch nerve and I totally understand your pain. I am neither professional coach, nor a professional player but I have been part of this amateur cricket club that I started, along with 3 friends, here in US. Being part of the club for the last 12 years and having being the captain for 7 years, I have seen and lived these issues. There are no comparisons in terms or skills and professionalism between an amateur and professional team but the core success totally relies on hard work. No team would succeed without hard work.
Being in US, our club consists of expats mainly from Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, Srilanka, West Indies and some other countries. It’s very challenging to uphold values from one particular culture other than the culture of hard work. But every year there are 1 or 2 players that will disrupt that very culture and make the team suffer.

Being a captain of an amateur team means you have to lead, manage and coach people. I am not the best player of the team but I try to be the best in motivating them by working hard. But a team full of amateur who pays to play cricket in their leisure becomes very challenging to motivate and messages go to deaf ears.
In 2010 we had the worst year when the last game of the 40 over league was the relegation decider. For the first in 9 years we felt the pressure and the team somehow managed to win that match and saved our selves from being relegated. Having saved the blushes the team got together and decided that something got to give. We started working hard and we went to the quarter-final of the 20 over league in that same year.

In 2011 we worked even harder, practicing in temps like 38 Fahrenheit in late spring of Minnesota and up to 106 degree or mid summer days. We not only went to the semi final of the 40 over league undefeated, we won the T20 championship undefeated. From 2010 when we played that last all important decider we played 24 games till the end 2011 and only lost 2. What a turn around for a team and it was all possible for the hard work that everyone put in.

I know my team can do even better if they worked even harder. But it’s always the best players of my team that are not willing to do the extra bit. And I cannot just blame it on any particular culture or country; as if it’s the way of the talented players. The most talented players in my team don’t want to work hard and will always resist and set bad examples to new comers. These are such sore subjects for me a as a captain and motivator that it just gets my angry juices flowing every time I see or hear situations like the one we are discussing here in BC.

These icon players have so much more to give to the team than just their performances. It’s a shame that they don’t realize it or act on it. There’s nothing more disheartening than seeing someone who does not fulfill his true potential due to lack of hard work.

[Navo]

@Tiger444, the difference is the players you're mentioning from other teams don't even have half the match experience that Shakib-Tamim-Mushy does.

[BD Rox]

Originally Posted by maysun
I bet such things wouldn't have been tolerated at the Australian camp, no matter how big you are.

Spot on!

[BD Rox]

Originally Posted by simon
I heard that Sakib practices cricket via Playstation.

rumeur

WHAT!

[BengaliPagol]

We just hope Shakib puts in that extra work for the team.

Did the senior players have lunch while everyone else was training hard? If its true then i am disgusted. That sort of attitude is not on. We seriously have to look upto champion teams like Australia and see what they do to win matches.

[Tipu606]

why bother what Shakib does off the field? lazy or active, what he had for breakfast should not be our concern !!

[shakibrulz]

No. Will post in detail later.