If it ain't broke...don't fix it???

[Night_wolf]

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
you did NOT filter with 6-8 slot.

with that filter the strike rates are the following:

Ash - 76
Naeem - 65
RIyad - 68

Ash also has the highest average at 32.

see this

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by Night_wolf
see this

then study this, although even that is a better SR than naeem (65) and equal to Riyad (68).

[Night_wolf]

^u got exactly my point..did u see my link at all???...i just cut out the associates teams..then look at ash..jei lau sei kodu..

would u consider his Canada Scotland knock?...only decent innings in there is is the knock vs SL and a then strong zim..

see post #43..they have the same stat..u ignored it so i showed u what ash looks like vs big teams(including zim) in that 6-7 pos..

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by Night_wolf
^u got exactly my point..did u see my link at all???...i just cut out the associates teams..then look at ash..jei lau sei kodu..

would u consider his Canada Scotland knock?...only decent innings in there is is the knock vs SL and a then strong zim..

see post #43..they have the same stat..u ignored it so i showed u what ash looks like vs big teams(including zim) in that 6-7 pos..

thats fine. but then you run the risk of using the same filter on Riyad and Naeem and having too small a sample size to make any meaningful comparison. and you still get a higher SR for Ashraful...so he ain't no worse.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

so the excuses so far have been:

1) ash can't field - 6-8s are not picked for fielding because then riyad shouldn't be there either altho naeem is a top class fielder, and rajin should bat there, if fielding was the prime criteria.

2) ash can't bowl - 6-8s in our lineup are picked primarily for their batting, secondarily for bowling as a 5th bowler. further 5th bowlers don't win or loses matches with their bowling...they're simply there to make up the numbers.

3) ash has a lower SR at at 3 and 4 in the past year - again irrelevant when discussing 6-8 slots.

4) ash has a lower SR at 6-8 against G8 - false, as shown above...Ash = 68, Naeem/Riyad = 65 each

5) ash has a lower SR at 6-8 over the past year - only 2 pieces of data...

6) aproximately 40 consecutive failures is less than 10 consecutive failures

****************

at any rate, this should be my last post on this thread as i've made my points...which some people agree with, and ultimately the team selection won't be based fan posts.

i believe that Riyad and Naeem deserve one final chance to turn it around against Ireland, or shoot for their 41st and 42nd consecutive innings failures (aprox statistic) as defined by having a sub-100 SR in the slog overs (pathetic really, since even rank tailenders can score 4 from 3).

i do that because i would give the same number of chances to an ashraful or whoever who fails to perform in whatever position he gets selected.

[Night_wolf]

^vai whats the difference between a SR of 68 and a SR of 65?..u tell me..

as much as u,i also want ash back in the team..i want him to smack opponent bowlers around in our time of need...but that ash নিজেকে হারিয়ে খুঁজে ফিরছে

i dont want this confuse ash no where near the bd team no matter how bad Riyad or nayeem is..Ash is not the solution right now..we should have considered somone else..we should have give ash a long time out..so that he can regroup and come back

but since we picked him 4 the WC so i'll agree with u he is our best option in the 6-8 no matter how big this gamble is..

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by Night_wolf
^vai whats the difference between a SR of 68 and a SR of 65?..u tell me..

the difference is that 68 is not less than 65, which is what quite a few people have been telling us in the hopes that our number system has somehow been constructed incorrectly. or maybe they thought that 8 is the bangla number 4 making 68 = 64 < 65.

i don't know, ask them.

i dont want this confuse ash no where near the bd team no matter how bad Riyad or nayeem is..Ash is not the solution right now..we should have considered somone else..we should have give ash a long time out..so that he can regroup and come back

thats fine. admission that the thing is broken and that we should still stick with it instead of trying find a different solution is OK. but to say that all is fine and dandy when other teams score 80, 90, 100+ runs in the final overs is simply not true.

but since we picked him 4 the WC so i'll agree with u he is our best option in the 6-8 no matter how big this gamble is..

or at least try SN.

I favor ashraful for a whole host of reasons. he's not a proper or responsible batsman. responsible he never was, but proper he was by our low standards back in the day. SN has improved his game since the ICL issue and he was alwayas proper batsman. we shouldnt waste him down the order unless absolutely necessary. besides i fully expect him to cement his place in the top order in place of Rock or Junaid.

in the meantime we will have to just wait for the youngsters to come through.

[Jadukor]

Many of us opposed Ashraful's selection in the final 15 from the very begining. But now that he has been picked, he needs to be given a role and given opportunities... otherwise why on earth was he picked in the first place?...

All the talk about our inefficiency in the powerplay has been going on in BC for a long time before the worldcup started but sadly our think tank has been in denial from the very begining... they didn't experiment with new players in either the NZ and Zim series. Their excuse is we lose too many wickets during the powerplay... that in itself is a problem that needs to be fixed and not shy away and hide from. We need to get our planning right during the overs 35-50 on what the set batsman are supposed to do during those stages in the game. If an associate team like Netherlands can excute a powerplay against England..the we damn well should be able to do that also...

[Eshen]

^^ See, the thing is that - most of the players from Ireland and Netherlands are County league professionals and regulars in their teams especially in shorter formats. So, it's no wonder they know how to handle PPs better.

We, on the other hand, still struggling to realize how T20 changed the one-day format. Siddons idea of stacking up specialist batsmen (who, for most part of their careers, played among top 6) is obviously not working, neither he can help improve bowlers with their batting.

[Jadukor]

I can understand us being behind in the skill aspect of the game considering we are relatively new as a Test Nation... but i can't fathom why should also be behind in the tactical aspect of our game... like deciding on what to do after winning the toss /when to take the powerplay/ when to send a pinch hitter/ deciding who is better at which position/ how to pick different squads for differnt formats etc...

[Eshen]

^^ I have no gripe about toss decisions, there will be people unhappy either way. But when it comes to tactical aspect of PP, I believe it's directly related to T20. T20 has not really introduced any new skill, rather showed players (mostly batsmen) how they can maximize their skills according to demands of situations (and we see the effect of that even in Test matches!). Again, our players still have not grasped the idea of T20 clearly yet, many of them prolly still think it's mindless slogging (like many fans here believe). It's no wonder that they act like headless chickens in the third pp and get out cheaply!

[Jadukor]

I thought bowling first was the right decision in the India game... I don't think we would have scored anything beyond 250 if we had batted first... and the dew would have made our bowling even less effective... probably India would have chased that target within 40-43 overs.

But i still remember sending England in to bat first in the Chittagong Test... that was a shocker for me...

[Eshen]

^^ Again, there is always people unhappy either way about toss decisions. My observation is that, by making a batting friendly wicket, we played to India's strength and set our team for failure any way you look at it.

[pervez mia]

Talk about "much ado about nothing"... al furquaan bhai as much as I admire your enthusiasm abt Ash and the stats you pulled out, unfortunately Ash is not the answer to our number 7-8 position, maybe 6 but that's a massive MAYBE given how far backwards his form/ability/hunger has gone in the last few years. You obviously have a love for him that only his mother could oulast... Which is not a bad thing because everyone should have a favourite...

Now to my input on this issue, I don't believe Ash is the right answer to our lower order batting woes coz 7 and to a lesser extent 6 and 8 are all rounders positions. you look at all the other teams and look at who bats in their lower orders:
Australia - Hussey who bowls a bit, Smith who bats and bowls a bit and somtimes Hastings who wouldn't be in the side if he couldn't bat.
India - Pathan and Yuvraj are both batsmen but get a nod above Raina because of their bowling specially on Yuvraj's current form
Pakistan - Razzaq, Hafeez, Afridi all do both
S. Africa - Du Plessis, Peterson even Duminy who gets a game ahead of a couple of other bats because he bowl a few overs
England - Prior (keeper), Bresnan is a bowler who bats a bit, Collingwood is only in there coz he bowls a bit
Sri Lanka - Matthews (can do both well), Perera bats a bit, Kapugedera bowls a bit
New Zealand - Oram, N McCullum, Franklin, Styris

My point from aboove is that they are all either Batsmen or bowlers who can do a little bit of the other discipline. Ashraful can't. He is anything but an all rounder... Whilst he COULD bat, over an ODI career spanning 164 matches, he's bowled only 95 overs and taken 15 wickets. Definitely not the stats of an all rounder and thus he should not be in the side to only bat at 7. Definitely not at 8 because that's a bowlers position and if that bowler can bat a bit, that's a bonus (Johnson, Bresnan, Razzaq). Maybe at 6 because that's a Batsman's position and if he can bowl that's a bonus (Collingwood, Pathan, Yuvraj and many more (ashraful is no longer good enough to bat at this level and can't bowl)). My point is Ash is not an all rounder and should not be playing to bat at 7-8 and like I said at the start maybe 6 but that too should ideally be a batting all rounder.

In my opinion Naeem or Riyadh are also not good enough for a number 7-8 position yet because they are not good enough at either disciplines. However, the fact that they can do a little bit of both is most likely the reason why they are in the team. Unfortunately we aren't blessed or have yet to discover someone who can do both well enough or at least do one of them well enough and do a bit of the other and thus we can't expect someone like that to fill that position (apart from Shakib). But until we do find that right person, we have to make do with what we have... which is a proper batsman at 6 (Raqib or Mushfiq), either Naeem or Riyadh or Shuvo at 7 and a proper bowler at 8.

Apols for the lengthy reply but IMO some of you are missing the point…

[Eshen]

^^ Well said pervez bhai. Only if our dear coach had same level of reasoning skill as you do!

[Jadukor]

If we have Shakib, Razzak, Shafiul, Rubel in the side then that covers for 40 overs... so the remaining 10 can be shared between Mahmudullah and Mr. X... so from Mr. X we are looking for 5 overs out of the 50 alloted overs.

Mr. X can be Naeem, Shuvo and Ashraful
Chokka Naeem: part time bowler and a batter who hates hitting sixes as the name suggests
advantage: fielding... period!
disadvantage: killing momentum during powerplay/poor strike rate, last fifty scored in nov 2009!

Shuvo: Specialist SLA who can bat abit
advantage: fielding, bowling: good economy rate, capable of bowling full 10 overs
disadvantage: batting, looked out of depth in the international level

Ashraful: Specialist batsman who can bowl a bit
advantage: Hitting ability, wide range of strokes, [cough] match winner [cough]
disadvantage: fielding, running between wickets, presence in the squad

Now how do we pick from these great options?

according to the famous saying "Nai mamar cheye retarded mama valo"... i think you guys all know who my vote goes to...

[PoorFan]

If that Mr.X give away 50 runs for 5 over ... how much advantage we may get even if he has hitting ability? To me all of them fairly useless.

[Jadukor]

@poorfan: hee hee they are an intriguing bunch to select from isn't it ?
no mr. x won't go for 50 i can guarantee! because once he concedes 20 off 2 overs... our forever wise captain shakib would ask mahmudullah to bowl the remaining 8 overs...

[Eshen]

With Shuvo's current batting ability, he should come after Shafi and Razzak. If Mashrafe returns, he is the most likely candidate to take over #8. Otherwise, Shafi has the best potential for the slot.

In the long run, Riyad won't be able to hold to #7 slot either (he needs to get either promoted or be left out). Right now, Nasir Hossain looks like the most likely candidate to take over it.

Riyad, Naeem, Ashraful - all three need to find ways into top batting 6 slots (well, at least one of them while the other two have to be left out), they don't have much future as utility players.

[Jadukor]

Mash definitely could have solved some of our lower order batting worries... without him the inclusion of Shuvo would make the tail too long... then we are looking at Rubel, Shuvo, Razzak,Shafiul as the last four batters... and in a crunch high scoring game with a stiff asking run rate to maintain, these guys won't be good enough to take us home...

[PoorFan]

Originally Posted by Jadukor
...
no mr. x won't go for 50 i can guarantee! because once he concedes 20 off 2 overs... our forever wise captain shakib would ask mahmudullah to bowl the remaining 8 overs...

Yeah, then Riyad will bowl at least 1 loppa/short ball in every over to conceed runs that he never makes even if he bats more than 10 overs.

Bottom line is those idiots are not the solution, perhaps, better stick with Riyad/Nayeem in this WC is a way to deal with.

[Eshen]

Originally Posted by PoorFan

Bottom line is those idiots are not the solution, perhaps, better stick with Riyad/Nayeem in this WC is a way to deal with.

Yeah, JS refused to develop any alternative for them, though Nasir was hovering around the nets for last one year!