How much longer before the coach steps in?

[lamisa]

^^^ we can never improve if the duopoly vs the rest continues.

[LBW103]

Originally Posted by firstlane
While most of the BC members are agreeing to the below facts, you seem to be on different mission. Seriously, what visible proof you expect from a coach who arrived less than one month ago.

It's now FOUR STRAIGHT DEFEATS FOR LAW AND SWIFT. To remind everyone, Law is batting coach and Swift is fielding coach. Both areas are HEAVILY criticized so far on this tour. I agree that Law and Swift are not responsible BUT how long can they sit back and do nothing? We can blame the BCB but they are not playing or coaching. The performances lay squarely on the players (and ultimately the coaching staff if they do not help the players and make corrections). Not being able to complete all the overs on a flat batting wicket is an embarrassment.

Here is how CricInfo saw it. You decide for yourself where the problem is and who can change things. The relevant points about the batting is made in larger type:

Zimbabwe stormed to another easy victory against Bangladesh, with another commanding all-round performance giving them a 2-0 series lead. After Brian Vitori carved up the Bangladesh line-up, with his second ODI five-for in as many games, Vusi Sibanda built the foundation for the chase, before Tatenda Taibu's half-century sealed the win.

The hosts rectified their problem of losing too many wickets in the middle order and held firm where they could have wobbled. Bangladesh also made gains, although much smaller. They bowled with a little more consistency, although failing to find enough bite, and only managed to score four more runs than they did in the first ODI. Their batsmen failed to apply themselves and succumbed to poor shot selection against a particularly precise attack.

Bangladesh started positively with Imrul Kayes pouncing on width from Chris Mpofu at the first opportunity. But the encouraging start proved to be a false dawn as Vitori's golden arm struck again. He bowled his usual tight line and was rewarded with his fifth ball, when Tamim Iqbal tried to smack him through point without moving his feet, gifting Ray Price a catch at first slip.

Mushfiqur Rahim was promoted to No. 3 in an attempt to repair the early damage, but the experiment failed. One ball short of completing five measured overs at the crease, he mistimed a pull to be caught at square leg. Instead of consolidating, Kayes followed Mushfiqur, trying to force a length delivery through extra cover, and offering Hamilton Masakadza a simple catch.

Shahriar Nafees was dropped in the slips off the next ball, giving Bangladesh a bit of a lifeline. But Nafees and Mohammad Ashraful withdrew into their shells as the run-rate stagnated though they managed to see off Mpofu's bounce and Vitori's movement, before Prosper Utseya provided respite. Elton Chigumbura's introduction offered them the ideal opportunity to forge forward, but instead, they regressed.

Nafees gave his wicket away, to the fielder extra cover, and in Chigumbura's next over, Ashraful, who had displayed real patience, gave up. He hung his bat out to a wide delivery and got an edge through to Taibu. The wicketkeeper snapped up his second catch when Mahmudullah misread the line from Utseya and played for turn that wasn't there.

At 58 for 6, Bangladesh were in a familiar mess, having slumped to 43 for 5 in the previous game. Shakib Al Hasan found an unlikely but welcome partner in debutant Nasir, who had a good tour of South Africa with the A side in April. Nasir showed the maturity that those before him should have employed. His handling of the short ball, and execution of the pull shot against Mpofu were of particular distinction.

Shakib's ability to come to Bangladesh's rescue is well documented and the captain's efforts were, once again, praise-worthy. His fault is that he hasn't been able to convert his starts into bigger scores and he stumbled again when Vitori returned for his second spell. Nasir was the senior partner in his time at the crease with the captain and continued in that vein when he was joined by Abdur Razzak.

Their partnership flourished at a run-rate of over six, with both application and assurance against the spinners. They found themselves needing to accelerate when Vitori returned for a third spell. Nasir took him on, but lofted straight to the fielder at long-on.

Vitori's dream introduction to the international arena continued with another stunning effort when he bowled Razzak with a full delivery. Bangladesh's innings ended limply when Rubel Hossain was run out, 15 balls short of their allotted 50 overs.

[Akib]

Originally Posted by LBW103
It's now FOUR STRAIGHT DEFEATS FOR LAW AND SWIFT. To remind everyone, Law is batting coach and Swift is fielding coach. Both areas are HEAVILY criticized so far on this tour. I agree that Law and Swift are not responsible BUT how long can they sit back and do nothing? We can blame the BCB but they are not playing or coaching. The performances lay squarely on the players (and ultimately the coaching staff if they do not help the players and make corrections). Not being able to complete all the overs on a flat batting wicket is an embarrassment.

Here is how CricInfo saw it. You decide for yourself where the problem is and who can change things. The relevant points about the batting is made in larger type:

Zimbabwe stormed to another easy victory against Bangladesh, with another commanding all-round performance giving them a 2-0 series lead. After Brian Vitori carved up the Bangladesh line-up, with his second ODI five-for in as many games, Vusi Sibanda built the foundation for the chase, before Tatenda Taibu's half-century sealed the win.

The hosts rectified their problem of losing too many wickets in the middle order and held firm where they could have wobbled. Bangladesh also made gains, although much smaller. They bowled with a little more consistency, although failing to find enough bite, and only managed to score four more runs than they did in the first ODI. Their batsmen failed to apply themselves and succumbed to poor shot selection against a particularly precise attack.

Bangladesh started positively with Imrul Kayes pouncing on width from Chris Mpofu at the first opportunity. But the encouraging start proved to be a false dawn as Vitori's golden arm struck again. He bowled his usual tight line and was rewarded with his fifth ball, when Tamim Iqbal tried to smack him through point without moving his feet, gifting Ray Price a catch at first slip.

Mushfiqur Rahim was promoted to No. 3 in an attempt to repair the early damage, but the experiment failed. One ball short of completing five measured overs at the crease, he mistimed a pull to be caught at square leg. Instead of consolidating, Kayes followed Mushfiqur, trying to force a length delivery through extra cover, and offering Hamilton Masakadza a simple catch.

Shahriar Nafees was dropped in the slips off the next ball, giving Bangladesh a bit of a lifeline. But Nafees and Mohammad Ashraful withdrew into their shells as the run-rate stagnated though they managed to see off Mpofu's bounce and Vitori's movement, before Prosper Utseya provided respite. Elton Chigumbura's introduction offered them the ideal opportunity to forge forward, but instead, they regressed.

Nafees gave his wicket away, to the fielder extra cover, and in Chigumbura's next over, Ashraful, who had displayed real patience, gave up. He hung his bat out to a wide delivery and got an edge through to Taibu. The wicketkeeper snapped up his second catch when Mahmudullah misread the line from Utseya and played for turn that wasn't there.

At 58 for 6, Bangladesh were in a familiar mess, having slumped to 43 for 5 in the previous game. Shakib Al Hasan found an unlikely but welcome partner in debutant Nasir, who had a good tour of South Africa with the A side in April. Nasir showed the maturity that those before him should have employed. His handling of the short ball, and execution of the pull shot against Mpofu were of particular distinction.

Shakib's ability to come to Bangladesh's rescue is well documented and the captain's efforts were, once again, praise-worthy. His fault is that he hasn't been able to convert his starts into bigger scores and he stumbled again when Vitori returned for his second spell. Nasir was the senior partner in his time at the crease with the captain and continued in that vein when he was joined by Abdur Razzak.

Their partnership flourished at a run-rate of over six, with both application and assurance against the spinners. They found themselves needing to accelerate when Vitori returned for a third spell. Nasir took him on, but lofted straight to the fielder at long-on.

Vitori's dream introduction to the international arena continued with another stunning effort when he bowled Razzak with a full delivery. Bangladesh's innings ended limply when Rubel Hossain was run out, 15 balls short of their allotted 50 overs.

How do you know that they have not began doing something already? Do you honestly expect an impact to be visible so quickly? At the same time do you honestly think the coaches are sitting around doing nothing? I'm sure they are taking notes, figuring out what needs to be done, and trying to do it in the limited time they have had.

With the kinds of players we have on our team, you can't expect much so soon. You can't judge these new coaches, until they have had time to properly impact the team and players.

Zimbabwe came into this tour better prepared. They have found a potentially great seam bowler who is ripping us apart. They obviously have a better sense of the conditions as it is their home, and they are acclimatized to it. The failure of this tour falls squarely on BCB for mishandling the schedule and pretour preparation. There has been no tests for 14 months. Our domestic system sucks, so players can't really get much out of it. And not enough prep games to properly get used to foreign environment.

[LBW103]

Originally Posted by Akib
How do you know that they have not began doing something already? Do you honestly expect an impact to be visible so quickly? At the same time do you honestly think the coaches are sitting around doing nothing? I'm sure they are taking notes, figuring out what needs to be done, and trying to do it in the limited time they have had.

With the kinds of players we have on our team, you can't expect much so soon. You can't judge these new coaches, until they have had time to properly impact the team and players.

Zimbabwe came into this tour better prepared. They have found a potentially great seam bowler who is ripping us apart. They obviously have a better sense of the conditions as it is their home, and they are acclimatized to it. The failure of this tour falls squarely on BCB for mishandling the schedule and pretour preparation. There has been no tests for 14 months. Our domestic system sucks, so players can't really get much out of it. And not enough prep games to properly get used to foreign environment.

What the heck had Siddons been doing for 4 years then?

You say coaches cannot make a difference in this time? Fountain had one month and pont had two weeks yet the fielding and bowling were completely changed for the NZ 4-0 Banglawash. But the batting was miserable and remained so right up until Siddons left and has continued. This tells you a lot about the batting coaching.

Fountain got on with the role of coaching and so did the bowling coach. yes they are world class coaches but it shows what can be done. Stop the excuse culture and let's all face the facts.

[AsifTheManRahman]

But but...Ian never applied for the head coach role. You mentioned somewhere else that he should have been given the job - how do you feel the BCB should have approached him given that he wasn't even interested enough to apply?

[idrinkh2O]

Originally Posted by LBW103
What the heck had Siddons been doing for 4 years then?

You say coaches cannot make a difference in this time? Fountain had one month and pont had two weeks yet the fielding and bowling were completely changed for the NZ 4-0 Banglawash. But the batting was miserable and remained so right up until Siddons left and has continued. This tells you a lot about the batting coaching.

Fountain got on with the role of coaching and so did the bowling coach. yes they are world class coaches but it shows what can be done. Stop the excuse culture and let's all face the facts.

I wonder the same thing sometimes. Siddons was a batting coach (one of the best that some claims him to be) for 4 long years and he spent most times with the players...siddons didn't even give enough time to other coaches fountain, Pont or Luden to work with the players. Anyways, our batting is absolutely disgusting since the world cup. We won games here and there for the good performances in other areas.

a shocking claim about siddons (KK leads in that area)...
ঘরোয়া ক্রিকেটে উইকেট তৈরি হয় বড় দলের নামিদামি ব্যাটসম্যানদের কথা ভেবে। আর আন্তর্জাতিক ম্যাচের অগ্রাধিকার দেওয়া হয় দলের স্পিনশক্তিকে। সেটি নিশ্চিত করতে গিয়ে রাতের অন্ধকারে কাচ দিয়ে ঘাসের শেষ চিহ্ন মুছে ফেলার ঘটনাও আছে। ম্যাচের আগের রাতে যদিও 'পিচ কারসাজি' আইসিসির দৃষ্টিতে স্রেফ অপরাধ!
ঘটনাচক্রে দৃশ্যপটে চলে আসছেন সাবেক কোচ জেমি সিডন্স। বিসিবির মাঠকর্মীদের সূত্রে জানা, এ কারসাজি করা হতো সাবেক এ অস্ট্রেলীয়র চাপাচাপিতে। যার ফল এবারের জিম্বাবুয়ে সফরে ভোগ করছেন সাকিব-রাজ্জাকরা!
http://www.kalerkantho.com/?view=det...e_id=1&index=2

[Akib]

Originally Posted by LBW103
What the heck had Siddons been doing for 4 years then?

You say coaches cannot make a difference in this time? Fountain had one month and pont had two weeks yet the fielding and bowling were completely changed for the NZ 4-0 Banglawash. But the batting was miserable and remained so right up until Siddons left and has continued. This tells you a lot about the batting coaching.

Fountain got on with the role of coaching and so did the bowling coach. yes they are world class coaches but it shows what can be done. Stop the excuse culture and let's all face the facts.

Dude you need to show some patience. You can't ALWAYS expect miracle changes overnight. Do you honestly think some of our batsman can be turned from what they are now, to world class players in less than a month? I think we need to give this new administration at least a couple series before judging them.

And I believe this discussion was about Law, not Siddons...

[Sohel]

Step in and do what exactly? Please enlighten us with your suggestions.

[max410]

STOP BLAMING THE COACH its our players who are immatured and uneducated and young and has no brains to think before playing a show Brian vitory is a good bowler i saw his bowling he , he is the primary difference between the teams right now

[LBW103]

Originally Posted by Sohel NR
Step in and do what exactly? Please enlighten us with your suggestions.

1. start coaching the batsmen to move their feet as siddons habitually failed to do and its why the batsman cannot bat outside of BD very well

2. make statements of intention so the players know what they should be doing and not just observe to witness a car crash then report on it

3. take charge of the team rather than let shakib and tamim run the show, as he is doing (and it is not working)

4. suggest/appoint a proper bowling coach immediately. The BCB are waiting for him to bring someone in which is why they said they haven't appointed or approached anyone

5. call an urgent meeting with selectors, captain and BCB officials to discuss plans rather than wait for this entire series to be an embarrassment to BD and their pride, which might do irreparable damage

6. actually APPEAR to be in charge rather than watching from the sidelines and commenting

Coaches say that good progress can be made in a short time but great progress takes longer. Right now BD needs ANY progress as the team is sliding in reverse. If coaching IS being done then the results are not happening and that means the coaching is ineffective. Or else it hasn't even started so what is the coaching staff doing?

The blame for the defeats is NOT down to law or swift. They are not at fault for the BCB lack of planning etc etc. What happens right now though is the bus is about to go off the road and crash and I expect the driver to start steering.

[LBW103]

Originally Posted by Akib
Dude you need to show some patience. You can't ALWAYS expect miracle changes overnight. Do you honestly think some of our batsman can be turned from what they are now, to world class players in less than a month? I think we need to give this new administration at least a couple series before judging them.

And I believe this discussion was about Law, not Siddons...

Dude I would take even basic international players at the moment, not even world class. Plus you make it sound like the batters have had no coaching before. They have - years of it. I don't expect the team to bat like Tendulkar or Gayle, just bat like they have an idea what they are doing. we can all stomach a loss if they are competent and just get beaten by a better side,

This appointment after SidVison, was an important one.It is proving to be more important than anyone believed. Someone, somewhere, somehow has to start coaching soon..

[LBW103]

Originally Posted by AsifTheManRahman
But but...Ian never applied for the head coach role. You mentioned somewhere else that he should have been given the job - how do you feel the BCB should have approached him given that he wasn't even interested enough to apply?

no one will really know the discussion between the BCB and a coach and so we will never know why the board didn't do everything they could to keep pont. I guess every coach has his price and could be persuaded to carry on or apply. the board has said they were directly approaching coaches they wanted anyway so who knows whether he was actually a target for them or not?

My point is that the right person for the head coach role was going to be crucial and probably someone who understood BD culture and politics before they started. fountain or pont had that knowledge but only pont had the right cricket background. In the end neither are involved with BD now and the fielding and bowling have been destroyed.

[LBW103]

Originally Posted by max410
STOP BLAMING THE COACH its our players who are immatured and uneducated and young and has no brains to think before playing a show Brian vitory is a good bowler i saw his bowling he , he is the primary difference between the teams right now

Max I am NOT blaming the coach for the defeats. I am NOT saying that. Please understand. I am asking the coach to actually do something now rather than sit and watch it all happen. He cannot afford to just watch and wait IMO.

And if Vitori is too good for the BD batters then heaven help the team.

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by LBW103
What the heck had Siddons been doing for 4 years then?

You say coaches cannot make a difference in this time? Fountain had one month and pont had two weeks yet the fielding and bowling were completely changed for the NZ 4-0 Banglawash. But the batting was miserable and remained so right up until Siddons left and has continued. This tells you a lot about the batting coaching.

Fountain got on with the role of coaching and so did the bowling coach. yes they are world class coaches but it shows what can be done. Stop the excuse culture and let's all face the facts.

He made Tamim & Shakib as some people claim.

[lamisa]

the coach has just stepped in with the team. give him atleast 2 more series

[WarWolf]

I think I need some break from BC. LBW103 bhai's same type of posts are making me sick. Since the day Law arrived to BD, all the posts LBW is making are saying the same thing.

[nahaz]

LBW..I hope you do realise that not all coaches will tell the media everything they work on with the players..." I am fixing Rubel's front foot drive today"... "I am improving Shakib's media skills"..." I am shaving off Razzak's hair"...

[LBW103]

Originally Posted by nahaz
LBW..I hope you do realise that not all coaches will tell the media everything they work on with the players..." I am fixing Rubel's front foot drive today"... "I am improving Shakib's media skills"..." I am shaving off Razzak's hair"...

I don't want him to say that, just DO that. Doing nothing is not really an option. It might have been when he arrived but this is now an emergency. Someone has to do something fast. If not the head coach then who?

[Akib]

Originally Posted by LBW103
I don't want him to say that, just DO that. Doing nothing is not really an option. It might have been when he arrived but this is now an emergency. Someone has to do something fast. If not the head coach then who?

The thing is HOW DO YOU know that he isn't doing that? How do you know that he is just sitting there? That he isn't working on improving their skills? Do you have some special access to the training sections? Its not like changes will show up the next day. Our players have a certain mindset, and that is difficult to change.

[LBW103]

Originally Posted by WarWolf
I think I need some break from BC. LBW103 bhai's same type of posts are making me sick. Since the day Law arrived to BD, all the posts LBW is making are saying the same thing.

The truth is the truth no matter how many people disagree with it - or don't want to hear it.

I am NOT against Law bhai in any way. I am against a coach not coaching or saying he is going to leave the players to do their own thing. Law bhai said this. It could have been Tom Moody said it and I would be saying the same things when it is clear the team needs guidance immediately.

You cannot sit idly by and watch the whole thing crumble around you and simply write reports. It is better to do SOMETHING even if it is wrong, than do NOTHING. At least an effort would have then been made to address the issues.

[LBW103]

Originally Posted by Akib
The thing is HOW DO YOU know that he isn't doing that? How do you know that he is just sitting there? That he isn't working on improving their skills? Do you have some special access to the training sections? Its not like changes will show up the next day. Our players have a certain mindset, and that is difficult to change.

So you are suggesting that after 3-4 weeks of coaching (if he IS coaching as you think he might have been) there is no difference in any way in the batsmen? Even a child would show signs of getting better after 3-4 weeks of international standard coaching.

The truth is coaching may or may not be going on but it is just not working to ANY level. I am not expecting miracles just an improvement in something, however small. The players had FOUR YEARS of siddons to show for this latest debacle. Can we please get a coach who can make a difference quickly before we slip down the ODI and Test rankings yet again.

Let's not forget the salary is around US$ 20,000 a month. They could have flown every batsman to England, SA, Australia or India for professional coaching for that.

[Akib]

Originally Posted by LBW103
So you are suggesting that after 3-4 weeks of coaching (if he IS coaching as you think he might have been) there is no difference in any way in the batsmen? Even a child would show signs of getting better after 3-4 weeks of international standard coaching.

The truth is coaching may or may not be going on but it is just not working to ANY level. I am not expecting miracles just an improvement in something, however small. The players had FOUR YEARS of siddons to show for this latest debacle. Can we please get a coach who can make a difference quickly before we slip down the ODI and Test rankings yet again.

Let's not forget the salary is around US$ 20,000 a month. They could have flown every batsman to England, SA, Australia or India for professional coaching for that.

Do you have any metric to compare our players right before Law came and after what he has done in the last 3 or 4 weeks? The regression is more likely due to lack of proper matches in the last few months, since the world cup.

As for 20k a month, sure you probably could have flown them to England or Australia, but you wouldn't actually have any money left over for coaching....

I agree with you that our players need a lot of work, and that Law should be doing something about it. However I disagree with your assertion that Law's effect should be visible already, and that he is not doing anything.

[LBW103]

Originally Posted by Akib
Do you have any metric to compare our players right before Law came and after what he has done in the last 3 or 4 weeks? The regression is more likely due to lack of proper matches in the last few months, since the world cup.

As for 20k a month, sure you probably could have flown them to England or Australia, but you wouldn't actually have any money left over for coaching....

I agree with you that our players need a lot of work, and that Law should be doing something about it. However I disagree with your assertion that Law's effect should be visible already, and that he is not doing anything.

1. I am not blaming Law for the regression, just the failure to stop it. He is BATTING coach and HEAD COACH.If not him, then who should stop it? The woman who cleans the toilets?

2. For 20k you can get 10 players @ $1,000 flights and leave $10,000 for coaching fees.

3. Fountain made the fielders a cohesive unit in 4 weeks of coaching with THIS team. Pont made the bowlers a cohesive unit in 2 weeks of coaching with THIS team. All of this ahead of the NZ series, which BD won 4-0 remember, and not thanks to the batters. So yes I believe if a coach is world class then they CAN make a visible difference to at least something tangible with THIS team.

Or perhaps the coaching staff right now of Law, Swift and Sarwan is not very good.

[LBW103]

This is from CricInfo... I REST MY CASE.....

For Bangladesh, disaster looms, according to Shakib Al Hasan, who called his team situation a crisis. Their mistakes have become more glaring as the series has progressed and are now in urgent need of attention.

If anyone still thinks we should just sit around and wait for the coach to wake up is clearly out of touch.

[Direct-Hit]

Originally Posted by LBW103
no one will really know the discussion between the BCB and a coach and so we will never know why the board didn't do everything they could to keep pont. I guess every coach has his price and could be persuaded to carry on or apply. the board has said they were directly approaching coaches they wanted anyway so who knows whether he was actually a target for them or not?

My point is that the right person for the head coach role was going to be crucial and probably someone who understood BD culture and politics before they started. fountain or pont had that knowledge but only pont had the right cricket background. In the end neither are involved with BD now and the fielding and bowling have been destroyed.

FYI Really enjoying the discussions being had on the forum, and appreciate all the positive comments about the work Ian & myself did with the team. It is a shame to see them struggling in Zimbabwe currently, but I do have a question . . . . What exactly is the "Right Background" ???

Some light reading on this exact topic for you guys !

http://www.carling.com/football/five-of-the-best/161/

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/column...ndy&id=3045864

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/baseb...icle622073.ece