To Veil or Not To Veil

[Mridul]

... and I just thought how on earth the women in the Middle East can go around wearing black burkhas, head to toe, in such stiffling heat. To ask people to do that is just.. cruel.

...these women r just following their Lord's command....may be some women are forced to do so....but also there are women who r just practicing their Faith...they Love their Lord....thats why they r obeying HIM

[Edited on 12-7-2004 by nasif : subject text fix after split/merge]

[Hasib]

you will find that the majority of women r taught by older women in their family to wear the hijab... not inforced by men at all.

[Carte Blanche]

[...]

[Nasif]

I don't want to turn this into a religious discussion thread, but covering from head to toe is NOT the command at all.

[Mridul]

Originally posted by nasif
I don't want to turn this into a religious discussion thread, but covering from head to toe is NOT the command at all.

...whose command u r talking about here?

[Nasif]

I am talking about the command from The One and Only.

[fab]

Originally posted by Carte Blanche
After reading all this, amar burkha porar shokh hoise

Why? Do you have a tendancy to cross dress? hehehe :P

Mridul, covering from head to toe in black burkhas is "Sunath" - is it not? Either way, personally I think it is unfair that women need to tortured in this way just because some men are perverted. There is a big difference between asking someone to dress modestly/conservatively and asking them to physically impede themselves with layers and layers of cloth.

btw, isn't it ironic how Brandi cannot celebrate in the same manner as Pape Diop. If a man does it, it's because he scored the goal of his life, but if a woman does it, it's 'exposure'.. Sigh.. still living in medieval times I see.

[Mridul]

Mridul, covering from head to toe in black burkhas is "Sunath" - is it not?

....People who believe in Islam...God says in their Holy book (Qur'an)..

“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies. That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah(God) is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”
[al-Ahzaab 33:59]

...as far as i know...and understand....Black Bukhas r traditional dresses which suits the best for the above Words of God........I think, as far as Muslim women cover their hair and body...and wear loose fitting dresses...they r following their God's commands.

[fab]

Originally posted by Mridul
“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies.
[al-Ahzaab 33:59]

...as far as i know...and understand....Black Bukhas r traditional dresses which suits the best for the above Words of God........I think, as far as Muslim women cover their hair and body...and wear loose fitting dresses...they r following their God's commands.

Sorry, must admit I am not well versed on the subject of Islam, but from that excerpt, where did you get the requirement for covering the hair as well? Is there any other verse that explicitly states that requirement?

[Mridul]

Originally posted by fab
Is there any other verse that explicitly states that requirement?

"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent , and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, necks and bosoms)…”

[al-Noor 24:31]

God says “…and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, necks and bosoms) …”. The jayb (pl. juyoob) is the neck opening of a garment and the khimaar (veil) is that with which a woman covers her head.

[Nasif]

Originally posted by Mridul

....People who believe in Islam...God says in their Holy book (Qur'an)..

“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies. That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah(God) is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”
[al-Ahzaab 33:59]

...as far as i know...and understand....Black Bukhas r traditional dresses which suits the best for the above Words of God........I think, as far as Muslim women cover their hair and body...and wear loose fitting dresses...they r following their God's commands.

This is one of the most mistranslated verse in Quran. Those translators who mistranslate it, either don't know how to translate or have a hidden agenda (keeping the women down!).

Here is the original Arabic, literal translation from Arabic and most correct translation in English:


Literal:
You, you the prophet, say to your wives and your daughters and the believers' women they near (lengthen) on them from their shirts/gowns/wide dresses, that (is) nearer that they be known (better than being identified), so they do not be harmed mildly/harmed, and God was/is forgiving, merciful.

English:
O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized (as righteous women) and avoid being insulted. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.


This command is to dress modestly so that you aren't insulted or "fielded" at when you are outside. There is no indication of any kind of head to toe covering. It is impossible to enforce head to toe covering command based on this.

Well, I didn't want this thread to turn into Quran discussion, but it was inevitable.

[Edited on 29-2-2004 by nasif]

[jabbar]

Originally Posted by Nasif

Literal:
You, you the prophet, say to your wives and your daughters and the believers' women they near (lengthen) on them from their shirts/gowns/wide dresses, that (is) nearer that they be known (better than being identified), so they do not be harmed mildly/harmed, and God was/is forgiving, merciful.

English:
O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized (as righteous women) and avoid being insulted. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.


This command is to dress modestly so that you aren't insulted or "fielded" at when you are outside. There is no indication of any kind of head to toe covering. It is impossible to enforce head to toe covering command based on this.

[Edited on 29-2-2004 by nasif]

Most insightful.

I agree that the burkha is not a mandatopry dress code for Islamic women. I am not an expert (although I try to follow Islam to the best of my ability), but can someone shed some light on whether the hijab (head scarf) is madatory or not? (This is a separate issue from the burkha, which is an all over cover (head to toe)).

[reverse_swing]

excellent. Thanks.

[chinaman]

This thread has been created from splitting up the thread named "Tighter Soccer Uniform" in the Bangladesh Football forum.

Please let me know if you think any other post needs to be moved here from the original thread.

Thank you for your continuing co-operation and understanding.

[fab]

Thanks Mridul and Nasif for the clarification. One Dr. Ibrahim B. Syed, Ph.D
seems to think it is not compulsory either.(link)

This begs the question though, why the heck is it compulsory in Saudi Arabia?

Anyhow, I think I will go with Nasif's translation since it suits me well

Thank you for your continuing co-operation and understanding.

Haha.. this has to be tongue in cheek.. Right?

[Edited on 29-2-2004 by fab]

[Nasif]

Originally posted by fab
This begs the question though, why the heck is it compulsory in Saudi Arabia?

Simple answer to this:
Saudis are the furthest from true Islam. Whatever they are doing has nothing to do with Islam or its values.

For starters: there is no kingdomship in Islam

[Edited on 1-3-2004 by nasif : spelling]

[crickipagol]

Now a days I hear something like this....Wearing Black cloak and Veil is a cultural thing for Saudi women. For expat women around here, wearing cloak is a must but not the veil.

No way tell, who is correct who is wrong. Just live the fullest of life.

There is nothing afterwards! Atleast nobody came back to tell us anything.

[chinaman]

Originally posted by crickipagol

There is nothing afterwards! Atleast nobody came back to tell us anything.

You have a valid point there! Well, if you ever happen to come across something really "afterwards", don't say you were not warned "beforewards".

[Arnab]

I warn you that pigs will fly and I will have sex with the hottest woman in the universe sometime soon in the future.

You have been warned!

[fab]

The picture is almost surreal...

On another note, the problem of being 'moderately' religious these days is that you get both ends of the spectrum trying to force their ideologies down your throat. On the one hand you have the religious zealots who praise the lord in every waking minute and bemoan your inevitable entrance into Hell, and on the other hand you have the intellectual athiests who blame all ills of the world on religion and try to convert you to athiesm else brand you as being a stupid idiot. (read The Quran and Science thread to see is a classic example of this)

Come on guys, what happened to a bit of moderation? (no pun intended)

[Arnab]

on the other hand you have the intellectual athiests who blame all ills of the world on religion and try to convert you to athiesm else brand you as being a stupid idiot

Seeing I was the only "intellectual atheist" in that particular thread, please, fab, by all means, point out exactly where:

1. I tried to blame all ills of the world on religion.

2. I tried to "convert" somebody to an atheist, and branded somebody a stupid idiot because he didn't want to "convert".

ASSuming is fun.

[fab]

DUDe, I can't believe you walked right into this.. In a scan through the thread I found these brilliant quotes from you.

examples of the "ppl who are religious are stupid idiots" mindset:

"Is your faith SO strong that you have to brainwash yourself like that?"
"And when they go back home and say their prayers, they are back in irrational blind faith mode again."
"You are deluded, but perhaps not beyond redemption"
"you have established yourself as a closeminded fundamentalist"

Examples of attempt at conversion:
"Why are YOU taking the infinitely bigger risk of believing something that is so ILLOGICAL?"
"Because it is mostly useless. I am not changing anyone's mind here."

And saving the best for last..

"I have had constant debates with my college buddies and actually managed to convert one christian to an atheist."

DOGmatic CONviction from both sides of the camp truly are tiring for those of us in the middle

[Edited on 2-3-2004 by fab]

[Arnab]

Holy...! You are one relentless...the decorum of this forum prohibits me from saying the word.

OK lemme go over this again:

1. You weren't able to prove that I "blamed all the ills of the world on religion."

2. You weren't able to prove I tried to "convert" any member here on this board! Yes, I had debates with my friends in my college, NOT about Quran and Science in particular, but Atheism in general, and yes, after having debates and conversations with me throughout one whole semester on numerous occassions about various issues, one of my friends did turn to atheism. But he did it on his own will. It could be said that interactions with me made him an atheist. Hence the use of the word "convert". I didn't press him or anything and he doesn't even credit me for the "conversion." Apparently, he had doubts about God LONG BEFORE he met me.

And FYI, Atheism is not a religion. You cannot really "convert" anybody to it. It was a tongue in cheek comment. Which is exactly why I EXPLICITLY said,

"I am not changing anyone's mind here."

You even put it in bold. :duh:

-----------

And I appreciate your painstaking "research" through all my posts to find out-of-context sentences and apply your QUACK psychology on them to reveal my "mindset". Attempt at conversation? WTF does that mean? Is this a formal philosophical convention and I have to follow a certain format to write my posts? News Flash: This is a messageboard. I can "attempt to converse".

---------

But yes, by the course of this useless dialogue between you and myself that just happened, I HAVE acquired a mindset for a certain kind of people who I think are REALLY stupid. Thank you for that.

[acker]

Originally posted by fab

The picture is almost surreal...

On another note, the problem of being 'moderately' religious these days is that you get both ends of the spectrum trying to force their ideologies down your throat. On the one hand you have the religious zealots who praise the lord in every waking minute and bemoan your inevitable entrance into Hell, and on the other hand you have the intellectual athiests who blame all ills of the world on religion and try to convert you to athiesm else brand you as being a stupid idiot. (read The Quran and Science thread to see is a classic example of this)

Come on guys, what happened to a bit of moderation? (no pun intended)

I think its best that the women in the picture keep thier burkah's on , It would be a terrible sight to see their flabby bits getting jammed in part of the gun mechanism...

[fab]

FFS Arnab, get a grip! You read far too much into my posts. Let me clarify one very important point: My posts do NOT revolve around making veiled swipes at you.. sheesh :duh:

It was YOU who took my GENERIC observation on religious and atheist zealots personally. I just merely obliged your request to find proof in that particular thread. I normally try to back up what I say with evidence, and that thread was an example close at hand (but i certainly would NOT have included it as an example if I'd known certain individuals would take it as a personal insult). If someone asks me a question, I answer it. Now if that makes me a relentless b*tch so be it.

You even put it in bold.

The context in which that quote was used, implied that the debate had become useless as you could not change anyone's mind. That is usually what happens in religious debates.. people try to change others' opinions but get no where. When you are in the middle of the field, like me, it's worse since you get both parties trying to change your mind and THAT was the whole feckin POINT of my initial post!

Where the heck did I say YOU blamed all ills of the world on religion OR that YOU tried to convert people on this board? And in case you are unaware - conveRSIon does not equal to conveRSATion.