Islambad under siege

[Zunaid]

Originally Posted by Kabir
Pakistanis are crazy.

Happy?

Nope.

Pakistanis are not crazy.

You did not get the point.

[Kabir]

Originally Posted by Zunaid
We just do not wish to be united with our neighbors to the West.

Didn't expect to hear that from you, Zunaid bhai.

Anyway, my last post in this thread.

[ammark]

Look, if you guys want a serious debate and want to search for answers to the current goings on in Paki, its all explained by numerous pundits ad nauseum.

If you want to be worried, then we should raise in public discussion, the concern towards a replication of those events in Bangladesh. Until then its an issue that Pakistan has to deal with themselves, and for the international community to engage in or face repercussions from.

[Zunaid]

Originally Posted by Kabir
Didn't expect to hear that from you, Zunaid bhai.

Anyway, my last post in this thread.

I am not sure why not. Don't disappear.

The discussion has reached an interesting point. I am curious as to why you did not expect the response I gave - vis " We just do not wish to be united with our neighbors to the West"?

I am happy we are a sovereign nation.

[layperson]

I think Zobair bhai and to some extent Kabir made very valid points of not generalizing an entire nation, religion, caste or creed based on a few. The point is not to hate "paikari bhabe" I guess. 1971 is a touchy issue and understanably so but to relate everything pakistan and crazy with 1971 is a bit extreme. That was then and this is now. Most of that generation who were guilty of those crimes are either dead or are extremely old. The newer generation should not be blamed or stereotyped based on their forefathers. Having said this I have come across ignorant stupid Pakistanis and have given them a piece of my mind when they refer me as their brother from across the border and sometimes going as far as saying that " you are my brother from east pakistan". I have very very recently put one such pakistani back to his rightful place, verbally offcourse for implying this in a joke and he vehemently apologized. I however do not correlate everything pakistan with ignorance just because of that one person because I have friends from pakistan who are respectful and not so ignorant.

[Arnab]

Originally Posted by Kabir
It's been noticed. I don't need to give any concrete evidence.

I see, you like to throw in baseless claims with no concrete evidence.

Yea, I can see how you're relating Bangladesh and Pakistan in every aspect of your thought about Pakistan.

I suppose this is another baseless claim without any concrete evidence.

First, you're providing your own definition of what should happen if you're a Bangladeshi and something related to Pakistan comes up.

It's not my personal definition. The very existence of the country of Bangladesh can be traced back to 1971. It's not rocket science. If we didn't win the war in 1971 against the Pakistanis, there would be no Bangladesh right now. It's very simple, no?

And now, you're imposing that definition on me to question my identity as a Bangladeshi? That is crossing the limit to some extent.

Didn't YOU cross the limit first by taking veiled digs about my "neural network", "talking crap", etc.?

I don't feel that I need to answer this question of yours, but something tells me that you feel uncomfortable when the word Pakistan is brought up.

Not really. I was actually stating the fact that this kind of craziness is nothing new from Pakistan. The "hatred", "crap" and other assortment of bs didn't come from me.

May be you've experienced the war first hand (which I doubt you did), and I haven't.

No, but I have watched and read enough about the atrocities.

One doesn't need to experience first hand what happened in the concentration camps to understand that the Jewish holocaust was a crazy thing.

Let's say the neo-Nazis in today's Germany get crazy and start rising up again. Do you think the holocaust and the world wars outlining German craziness will be mentioned in the Western media if that happens?

One might say that the Pakistanis in 1971 were even more efficient in their brutality than the Nazis, if we consider the rate at which the killings happened.

Or may be you've read more Kazi Nazrul Islam than I have.

Nah, just the basic BD history that every school kid in Bangladesh should know.

[Zunaid]

Originally Posted by layperson
Good stuff snipped

Very good points. We should never generalize. We should forgive when the heart is true. But we should never forget.

Are people responsible for the sins of their fathers? Yes, when the sins go unacknowledged, unrepented, uncondemmed and even unknown.

Legalese has a simple terminology for this: "accessories after the fact".

I do not wish to hold Pakistanis of the current generation responsible for acts committed by other Pakistanis even before they were born were or old enough to have tried to stop the genocide. I do wish that they would acknowledge and accept the fact of what did happen in those 25 years of Pakistani yoke on Bangladesh.

The Germans of today are not held responsible for the Nazis. But, the German nation has apologized for the acts committed by them, and made every effort to make amends for the actions of people with whom a majority of the Germans do not have anything in common.

I too shall stop here as I have taken this thread to paths scarier than most are willing to traverse.

[Kabir]

Originally Posted by Zunaid
I am not sure why not. Don't disappear.

The discussion has reached an interesting point. I am curious as to why you did not expect the response I gave - vis " We just do not wish to be united with our neighbors to the West"?

I am happy we are a sovereign nation.

Okay, my apologies. That was my second last, and this is my last.

Just need to clarify here, that I may have misunderstood your comment about being "united". I didn't think of it united as a nation, rather united as a neighbouring nation. Just to clarify a bit further, I'm also happy that we are a sovereign nation.

There goes my last.

[Arnab]

Originally Posted by Kabir
Arnab wins too. Pakistanis are crazy.

There's difference between saying "Pakistanis are crazy" and "Crazy Pakistanis are nothing new".

The first one says all Pakistanis are crazy. Which I didn't mean.

The second one says a section of Pakistanis doing utterly crazy things is nothing new and has been repeated throughout history. And as a Bangladeshi, it's perfect to bring up 1971 as a glaring demonstration of this kind of craziness.

On the face of it, and if misconstrued, it's a blunt remark, but it was meant to be a subtle commentary on the socio-political system that has prevailed in Pakistan since its very birth.

[Nocturnal]

Originally Posted by Arnab

The second one says a section of Pakistanis doing utterly crazy things is nothing new and has been repeated throughout history. And as a Bangladeshi, it's perfect to bring up 1971 as a glaring demonstration of this kind of craziness.

On the face of it, and if misconstrued, it's a blunt remark, but it was meant to be a subtle commentary on the socio-political system that has prevailed in Pakistan since its very birth.

Very well said Arnab.

[AsifTheManRahman]

Originally Posted by Zunaid
Very good points. We should never generalize. We should forgive when the heart is true. But we should never forget.

Are people responsible for the sins of their fathers? Yes, when the sins go unacknowledged, unrepented, uncondemmed and even unknown.

Legalese has a simple terminology for this: "accessories after the fact".

I do not wish to hold Pakistanis of the current generation responsible for acts committed by other Pakistanis even before they were born were or old enough to have tried to stop the genocide. I do wish that they would acknowledge and accept the fact of what did happen in those 25 years of Pakistani yoke on Bangladesh.

The Germans of today are not held responsible for the Nazis. But, the German nation has apologized for the acts committed by them, and made every effort to make amends for the actions of people with whom a majority of the Germans do not have anything in common.

I too shall stop here as I have taken this thread to paths scarier than most are willing to traverse.

My sentiments exactly. My neural network too, will dig up 1971 when you plug in "Pakistan", although I haven't experienced it first hand.

But does that mean I hold anyone of the current generation responsible? Does that mean I have no Pakistani friends? No and no.

I think some of the comments on this thread regarding the correlation of Pakistan to the events of 1971 are getting misinterpreted here. These are facts, and not questions of racism and/or hatred towards Pakistanis of today.

A public apology and general acknowledgement/realization would have greatly helped. Unfortunately, none of that has happened. For a nation that has had to suffer so much, forgetting history may not always be an option, although forgiving the guilty could be, given the proper circumstances, which unfortunately haven't arisen.

[Orpheus]

l.............................................

[Zobair]

Excellent post! Agreed in full. Though many Pakistanis in positions of power have directly or indirectly apologised, we are still waiting for a more formal apology and related discussions on reparations.

Originally Posted by Zunaid
Very good points. We should never generalize. We should forgive when the heart is true. But we should never forget.

Are people responsible for the sins of their fathers? Yes, when the sins go unacknowledged, unrepented, uncondemmed and even unknown.

Legalese has a simple terminology for this: "accessories after the fact".

I do not wish to hold Pakistanis of the current generation responsible for acts committed by other Pakistanis even before they were born were or old enough to have tried to stop the genocide. I do wish that they would acknowledge and accept the fact of what did happen in those 25 years of Pakistani yoke on Bangladesh.

The Germans of today are not held responsible for the Nazis. But, the German nation has apologized for the acts committed by them, and made every effort to make amends for the actions of people with whom a majority of the Germans do not have anything in common.

I too shall stop here as I have taken this thread to paths scarier than most are willing to traverse.

[Rabz]

Let the [] kill each other.
who gives a rat's back?

[Alien]

What happened in 1971 was done by Pakistani Military and what's happening now is done by a bunch of fanatics (civilian). Military around the world have been notorious for conducting massacres. Its not just Pakistanis.

How many Bangladeshis did Pakistanis kill? Couple of millions? Well guess what? the Nazis killed over 20 million Russians during WW2. Today there isn't any news about Russians blaming Germans or poking the finger of blame for what has happened 60 years ago.

I know Pakistan's apology does not bring back the dead. Then again nothing can.

My point is what has happened has happened. History cannot be changed so no point crying about it. I guess its the general attitude of ours, keep digging up dirt from the past. No wonder we are one of the backward nations in the world.

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by Arnab
I don't know what you two are on about with all the talk about "hatred" and "crap", but what's happening in Pakistan is nothing but crazy. And what Pakistanis did in Bangladesh in 1971 was nothing but crazy. There's an element of recurring yet typical craziness when it comes to our beloved brothers by the shores of Indus.

at the risk of being a devil's advocate, if genocide is crazy, then i guess the whole world's people are crazy...

the arabs are crazy for genociding kurds and the fur, the israelis are crazy for genociding palestininans, the turks for the armenians, the soviets on the chechens, teh indonesians for teh east timorese, etc.

actually, i agree with you there, arnab...humanity is crazy.

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by Zunaid
Very good points. We should never generalize. We should forgive when the heart is true. But we should never forget.

Are people responsible for the sins of their fathers? Yes, when the sins go unacknowledged, unrepented, uncondemmed and even unknown.

Legalese has a simple terminology for this: "accessories after the fact".

I do not wish to hold Pakistanis of the current generation responsible for acts committed by other Pakistanis even before they were born were or old enough to have tried to stop the genocide. I do wish that they would acknowledge and accept the fact of what did happen in those 25 years of Pakistani yoke on Bangladesh.

The Germans of today are not held responsible for the Nazis. But, the German nation has apologized for the acts committed by them, and made every effort to make amends for the actions of people with whom a majority of the Germans do not have anything in common.

I too shall stop here as I have taken this thread to paths scarier than most are willing to traverse.

word up!

[RazabQ]

Well, as long as one is an equal opportunity basher I tend to be cool with things. I think Arnab, what drew Kabir's raised eyebrow was the fact that while you do not let a single opportunity to bash Pakistan go by (and most often rightly so), at the same time you espouse undying gratitude towards India even though their citizens/government are/is equally capable of crazy things. I am hoping you will not ask me for proof as your considerable posting history clearly illustrates my two assertions. I understand that is your position and so be it, but such an unequal stance will invite the odd reaction now and then

And as a subcontinental I cannot be somewhat alarmed at the increase of fanaticism amongst certain sections of the Pakistani population. Some of our Mullahs tend to have an affinity for things Pakistani, as evidenced by their propensity to slip into Urdu during milads and what not.

And as far as apology and that stuff is concerned, I say frig it. All I care is that in time our economy will outstrip theirs and our society is already more plural and democratic than theirs. To me - not having personally suffered in 71 - this ascendancy of ours is sweeter than any apology ever will be.

[Pundit]

See what Brother Ganguly Da has managed to do to you all?

Besides Arnab's flashbacks from those grim days of '71, we don't give a rat's rear as to what the Paks do! Yeah, we are that mature. Paki fervor or U.S. lies, problems like this will always persist. No one is ignoring them. But the fact that we are able to not compromise our emotions and not let all hell break loose, is the testimony to our awarness of the devil inside all of us and that it is safely bottled away.

Arnab, maybe your devil is giving you quite a bit of stir today? Besides, how old were you in 71? Minus 7 years??

I have an uncle who was a sector commander then. He should be in his mid 60s now. Never heard him sob over it. Actually if he could, he would stick it up theirs again.

That's the kind of men we want. Not the wussies who just emotionally bleed over 71 without having to do anything with that year. Closet Socialists living in the U.S. Ought to be dumped back somewhere East of their motherland, er' Siberia.

[Ganguly da]

I have recently come across few pakis who think 1971 was caused by Indians to "separate muslim brothers" --- is this because even the new generation of pakistanis are NOT taught the reality of the war, and what Pak army did? how many they massacred over night and for 9 months? how many rapes and minority killings that happened? I am just curious to know why do young pakistanis don't know about what happened? and also for fact, many young bangladeshis don't know what has happened.

update: looks like several students are surrendering, but still a lot of them left holed up to fight till the last in the mosque.

[Puck]

Originally Posted by Alien
What happened in 1971 was done by Pakistani Military and what's happening now is done by a bunch of fanatics (civilian). Military around the world have been notorious for conducting massacres. Its not just Pakistanis.

How many Bangladeshis did Pakistanis kill? Couple of millions? Well guess what? the Nazis killed over 20 million Russians during WW2. Today there isn't any news about Russians blaming Germans or poking the finger of blame for what has happened 60 years ago.

I know Pakistan's apology does not bring back the dead. Then again nothing can.

My point is what has happened has happened. History cannot be changed so no point crying about it. I guess its the general attitude of ours, keep digging up dirt from the past. No wonder we are one of the backward nations in the world.

on the contrary, the russians exacted severe revenge on the germans as a result of the initial assult of world war two, and continued to accupy part of germany through proxy for over four decaded. the russians also uprooted many industrial premises as well as detaining the german scientists. one example of this would be seen in the amount of russian replica of german leica and zeiss based cameras that came out during late forties, fifties and sixties. i have several jupier lenses for my leica ltm cameras that were actually made by german parts in russian factories, that had been wholly uprooted!

[DJ Sahastra]

I personally don't care about what happens in Pakistan beyond understanding it's possible impact on my own country.

And i agree with posters who feel this news thread was unnecessary, especially by an Indian and even more so given the propensity to jump on writers of Indian origin - something that has become a prominent bug on this forum.

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by Ganguly da
I have recently come across few pakis who think 1971 was caused by Indians to "separate muslim brothers" --- is this because even the new generation of pakistanis are NOT taught the reality of the war, and what Pak army did? how many they massacred over night and for 9 months? how many rapes and minority killings that happened? I am just curious to know why do young pakistanis don't know about what happened? and also for fact, many young bangladeshis don't know what has happened.

update: looks like several students are surrendering, but still a lot of them left holed up to fight till the last in the mosque.

well to be honest, you are correct...but at the same time india helped itself, first and foremost. this doesn't mean that we, bangladeshis, didnt benefit...and that we aren't grateful for our good fortune, but india pursued a policy of weakening pakistan to the logical and (in this case) jusifiable conclusion.

of course the blame should be on the so called "muslim" brothers for gift wrapping such a massive machiavellian treat to their enemies across the border. but oh well...

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by DJ Sahastra
I personally don't care about what happens in Pakistan beyond understanding it's possible impact on my own country.

And i agree with posters who feel this news thread was unnecessary, especially by an Indian and even more so given the propensity to jump on writers of Indian origin - something that has become a prominent bug on this forum.

on the contrary, i for one wish there more such threads...the mods keep a tight lid on things tho...but it gets so boring in here.

IMHO, there's nothing like a little paki, indian, muslim bashing to get the juices flowing...

[Arnab]

Originally Posted by Alien
What happened in 1971 was done by Pakistani Military and what's happening now is done by a bunch of fanatics (civilian). Military around the world have been notorious for conducting massacres. Its not just Pakistanis.

How many Bangladeshis did Pakistanis kill? Couple of millions? Well guess what? the Nazis killed over 20 million Russians during WW2. Today there isn't any news about Russians blaming Germans or poking the finger of blame for what has happened 60 years ago.

I know Pakistan's apology does not bring back the dead. Then again nothing can.

My point is what has happened has happened. History cannot be changed so no point crying about it. I guess its the general attitude of ours, keep digging up dirt from the past. No wonder we are one of the backward nations in the world.

Retarded post.