The myth of batting improvement under Jamie Siddons

[Miraz]

We all agree that our bowling and fielding declined under Jamie Siddons, but most people have a feeling that our batting has improved under him.

Unfortunately that's not the case. The truth is our batting has also declined under Jamie Siddons.

If we look at the last 26 matches under Dav Whatmore,

-----------------Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	NR	W/L	Ave	RPO	HS	LS

Dav Whatmore Last 2 years

2005-2007

26

4

22

0

0

0.18

21.66

4.17

265

108

Out of the last 26 matches against top 8 teams, we won 4 of them, that's 15% success rate.

Siddons era	17	0	17	0	0	0.00	20.92	4.23	285	93

During Whatmore's last 2 years we had a batting average of 21.66 and during Siddons era the average fell to 20.92. A difference of about 0.7 which is about 8 runs per match.

Most importantly Bangladesh used to bat for winning purpose and now Bangladesh play to lose and try to make about 200 runs. But still they are trailing Whatmore's average against top eight teams by 8 runs!!!

Now, if we look at the similar number of matches.

Dav Whatmore final year

2006-2007

16

3

13

0

0

0.23

21.34

4.15

265

112

It again shows, we were a better batting team (average 21.34) and won 3 matches out of 16, while we have lost all 17 matches under Jamie Siddons. Our next 3 matches are against Australia in Australia which means in no time the 17 match losing streak will be 20 match losing streak.

Now, during Whatmore's final year we conceded 5.04 runs per over, during Siddons era that jumped to 5.96 runs per over. It means on an average our opposition are scoring about 45 runs (a difference of 0.92 runs per over) more against us. Now, if we look at the bigger picture, decline in batting coupled with huge decline in bowling, it is very easy to understand why we are losing consistently.

Add the change in mentality and decline in fielding... a perfect recipe to make Bangladesh a laughing stock in international cricket.

I don't see a single reason why we should keep Jamie as our head coach and keep faith in him for a longer term.

Fire Jamie and that will be a small step in right direction.

[Aritro]

I'd be amazed if Siddons gets the sack. I'm sure the board have absolutely no interest in paying out the remainder of a contract that's worth somewhere between 400-600k over two years depending on which source you believe.

[Miraz]

Originally Posted by Aritro
I'd be amazed if Siddons gets the sack. I'm sure the board have absolutely no interest in paying out the remainder of a contract that's worth somewhere between 400-600k over two years depending on which source you believe.

There should be a get out clause in the contract.

If the contract does not contain such clause, BCB can keep him as A team coach or Academy coach and appoint a new head coach. I think even Bulbul will do a better job.

[Abd_Bakri]

Originally Posted by Miraz
There should be a get out clause in the contract.

If the contract does not contain such clause, BCB can keep him as A team coach or Academy coach and appoint a new head coach. I think even Bulbul will do a better job.

agreed!

[Sohel]

Another simple fact will see Banglasdesh cricket just putting up with Sid for the remainder of his contract.

The fact? BCB does not have enough sack to sack him.

He has turned out to be a bad-hire who cannot be fired in light of the financial consequences faced by a poor country like Bangladesh. I just hope, against much hope I might add, that Sid does a better job with Kids as long he is here.

Adding to Miraz's honest use of stats and comments about the myth, perhaps we are also giving him more credit than he deserves when it comes to good individual performances.

I've seen Tamim starting to become the more responsible batsman with increasingly orthodox technique from NCL 2007, way before Sid arrived at the scene. Ollie has been batting like the way he did against India in domestic FC and List A since changing his grip back in 2006. Nirala is just adding to what we've seen him do since that same season.

Maybe he has helped Shakib become more orthodox, although our Magura Miandad still has a long way to go, but the way he killed the fire inside Zunaed, Dhiman and Farhad has been downright painful to watch.

Watching Ash get Gollafied yet still refusing to play ground strokes along the V, and lose the will to compete before succumbing to his old compulsions has been more painful to an unabashed Mohammad Ashraful fan such as myself.

As far as "team batting" is concerened, I find it rather silly to obsess over numbers like 200, 240 and a couple of 280s on batting tracks -- thanks mainly to brilliant individual knocks from talented players with minds of their own -- when the "will to compete and give ourselves the chance to win" against the T8 is completely out of the picture under Sid, even before the toss.

That is a tragedy made more poignant by the fact that as a team, we still cannot 1) find gaps and rotate the strike with ease, 2) play higher percentage ground strokes in the V, and 3) demonstrate the ability to "play each ball according to its merit", rather than just try and "play out the overs to salvage an honorable defeat", often without much success as expected from such a defeatist mindset.

Last but not least, I don't see us dealing any better with extra bounce, or swing, or pace, or movement, or spin any better. Well-scripted quality doosras and googlies still get us out 9 out of 10 times.

So, where is the improvement, Sid?

If our painfully inadequate domestic cricket is to take the ENTIRE blame, and if our players are ENTIRELY responsible for motivating themselves, then what exactly has YOUR job been so far, besides taking unwelcome liberties with our rare achievements, and toying with our passion?

We have the right to know, you know, since our taxes pay your salary ...

The less said about our bowling the better.

The way he passed the buck after Asia Cup, was the last straw for me personally.

[bdchamp20]

No one needs stats to see that batting has improved under Jamie Siddons. Just watch Tamim's innings against India in the WC which was under Whatmore and watch the innings he played against India in the Asia Cup under Siddons. Yes the WC innings had more flash to it but if you look at his full innings carefully you would see he could've been easily out atleast 2/3 times. While the recent innings was much more sensible. There is a vast difference. Jamie is taking the slow track by working with individual players. And remember the fact that Jamie had to take in new players like Zunaed, Dhiman, Nazim and Raqib into his team when he began who will obviously take time to settle in. He had to put up with chopping and changing system of our board who never let our batsmen settle while Whatmore enjoyed much more stabilty. Can you do me a favour Miraz bhai and dig up the last ten matches under Siddons where there was at least some consistency in selection? I wasn't a Siddons fan before but I'm starting to realize what he is doing. Yes, he has made our team more defensive and according to Sohel bhai he has killed off the 'fire' in some players but if they played with that fire and scored a 50+ in every 15 matches the 'fire' would've automatically died off and reignite in another 15 matches. So is that what you want? The truth is we fans don't know what we want, like Mr. Siddons said when he took over people started saying you must stop Ashraful playing his shots and after he did that people started saying what have you done to Ashraful, we want the old Ashraful back! Some people complain that Ashraful is now like a total wall who's just there and want him to play high-percentage ground shots but to play those shots this is how to begin, cut off your rash strokeplay and then learn. Ashraful is not a finished product yet like the other players. We must learn to give credit where it's due. One thing I do agree with is that Siddons is neglecting the bowlers and we must find a professional and experienced bowling coach. I still trust Siddons to develop our batsmen and I'm pretty confident he won't let me down!

[ialbd]

only if siddons was allowed to use 'bet',bet-er bari dia coaching dile labh hoito ektu....

[Sadz]

Bdchamp, i
have to agree with you because they are the same opinions I have of JS and Dav. However, if more players are given he freedom to play aggressively I'm sure we would be much more succesful and now we need to find the right balance. The typical player for that is my newly-liked Rakibul Hasan. And yes, bowling is declining a lot since Dav's era. JS won't transform the team in a couple of weeks and the sonner the fans realise that the better. Also, wasn't it the same fans that said it would take 5 years for Bangladesh to improve drastically that think Bangladesh aren't improving at all? I mean if Siddons goes about his way proffessionally I'm sure the team would play a whole lot more competetively in two years time and my gut feeling is that JS is starting the batting from step one because our batsmen do not know the basics and in time he will improve the batting further(I HOPE InshaAllah)

[Sohel]

Dav Whatmore took chronic underdogs Sri Lanka to World Cup VICTORY.

Comparing him, no matter what reservations one may or may not have about his style, to Sid is nothing short of absurd.

On the other hand, comparing Sid to Mohsin Kamal, Trevor Chappell or Shaun Williams is infinitely more appropriate IMO.

[Miraz]

bdchamp, Dav also worked with young bunch of players and he had to go through a lot more chopping and changing in search for a reliable a nucleus of the team. He finally found the core in the last year of his tenure and that's why he succeeded regardless of opposition.

Dav introduced Tamim and Mushfiq to international cricket who played match winning innings in the world cup 2007.

Siddons received a more mature team and better players like Rakibul. Still he could not produce better results in batting let alone winning.

About Nazimuddin, he picked Nazimuddin ahead of SN. It's his choice, if Nazim fails in a position where he never played, Siddons should share the blame.

Batting is a team effort. One or two players are probably doing well, but we are not getting contributions from tails or other batsmen as he already managed to kill the fire. And that's why the overall batting picture looks gloomy.

Another important thing is the way runs are coming. They are coming for losing causes. In Dav's era they were coming for both winning and losing causes. Now it's your choice which cause you rate more!!

[bdchamp20]

Originally Posted by Miraz
bdchamp, Dav also worked with young bunch of players and he had to go through a lot more chopping and changing in search for a reliable a nucleus of the team. He finally found the core in the last year of his tenure and that's why he succeeded regardless of opposition.

Dav introduced Tamim and Mushfiq to international cricket who played match winning innings in the world cup 2007.

Siddons received a more mature team and better players like Rakibul. Still he could not produce better results in batting let alone winning.

About Nazimuddin, he picked Nazimuddin ahead of SN. It's his choice, if Nazim fails in a position where he never played, Siddons should share the blame.

Batting is a team effort. One or two players are probably doing well, but we are not getting contributions from tails or other batsmen as he already managed to kill the fire. And that's why the overall batting picture looks gloomy.

Another important thing is the way runs are coming. They are coming for losing causes. In Dav's era they were coming for both winning and losing causes. Now it's your choice which cause you rate more!!

True, there was chopping and changing during the Whatmore era but was it to the extent Mr. Siddons is having to put up with? Did Whatmore ever have 4 debutants in his squad playing against a top team like South Africa? Remember the New Zealand tour he had to welcome back Javed Omar, Tushar Imran, Mehrab Jr. and give debuts to Zunaed and Sajidul? In Whatmore's period the likes of Mushfiq, Shakib, Enamul Jr., Mehrab Jr. and Farhad were given debuts individually one at a time and mostly against the likes of Zimbabwe. Mushfiq was with the squad for a long time before he replaced Mashud as the first choice keeper. Same with Enamul Jr. What happened in Dhiman's case? What happened in Mosharraf Rubel's case they were thrown straight in. I am not saying Whatmore is a bad coach, infact I believe he is a better overall coach than Jamie Siddons BUT will he return to coach us? The only bit I disagree with is 'Fire Jamie', because that won't be a small step forward but a huge step backwards.

[Miraz]

bdchamp, don't you think it's Siddons decision to take 4 debutants against South Africa? If it's an immature decision, he should take the responsibility. Dav was more logical in his approach. I am comparing with Dav becuase he was in charge right before Siddons.

We thought Siddons will take the batton from Whatmore and will take us forward. He took us backward and now we are haeding to the Mohsin Kamal/Trevor Chappel era.

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by Miraz
We thought Siddons will take the batton from Whatmore and will take us forward. He took us backward and now we are heading to the Mohsin Kamal/Trevor Chappell era.

We already are, despite having better players ...

[bdchamp20]

Originally Posted by Miraz
bdchamp, don't you think it's Siddons decision to take 4 debutants against South Africa? If it's an immature decision, he should take the responsibility. Dav was more logical in his approach. I am comparing with Dav becuase he was in charge right before Siddons.

We thought Siddons will take the batton from Whatmore and will take us forward. He took us backward and now we are haeding to the Mohsin Kamal/Trevor Chappel era.

No it was most certainly not Siddon's decision to include 4 debutants in the squad. It was the selectors who took the decision, and it's the selectors who I blame for the mess we are in. Siddons is a new man to the country and has admitted that he doesn't know most Bangladeshi players(I believe same was the case when Dav Whatmore took over but instead of admitting it he probably spent an hour on CricInfo researching BD players before the interview) and so he trusted the selectors. And it also might be the case that Dav had good relations with the selectors and had more say on selection than Siddons has. You are right, instead of carrying on from where Dav left of he decided to break off everything and rebuild from scratch which wasn't the smartest of decisions but a decision which might pay off in the long term. We might be heading towards or already are in dark times but remember golden times only come after you've struggled in dark times.

[Sadz]

So Miraza Bhai, I would like to ask you do you think we will continue falling backwards come next world cup or do you think JS might take us forwards slowly but surely?
I think we need to give JS more time just like we gave Dav time although I liked Dav more as a manager because he lifted the spirit of the team even the mediocre players. Hats off to him but now we have to do without him

[Miraz]

How many times we have to go through the dark times? I thought we already had a prolonged one during Mohsin Kamal/Trevor Chappel era. So, every coach has to take us to the dark era before producing some success?

Damn!! Dav was a bad coach. He only tried to take us out from the dark period and succeeded.

Now, not knowing international players of Bangladesh who were playing for quite some time can't be considered appropriate from a coach especially when he is going to take charge of those players.

Siddons is a part of the selection panel. He also decides the final XI. He could have easily avoided the debut of 4 players in the SA series if he wanted.

I guess it's always difficult to know players when you are on vacation.

[Miraz]

Originally Posted by Sadz
So Miraza Bhai, I would like to ask you do you think we will continue falling backwards come next world cup or do you think JS might take us forwards slowly but surely?
I think we need to give JS more time just like we gave Dav time although I liked Dav more as a manager because he lifted the spirit of the team even the mediocre players. Hats off to him but now we have to do without him

I have no confidence in Siddons approach. He might take us couple of steps forward from where we are now ( we are already 5-6 steps backward from where we were), but we won't be reaching the distance we had already reached in World Cup 2007.

[bdchamp20]

Originally Posted by Miraz
How many times we have to go through the dark times? I thought we already had a prolonged one during Mohsin Kamal/Trevor Chappel era. So, every coach has to take us to the dark era before producing some success?

Damn!! Dav was a bad coach. He only tried to take us out from the dark period and succeeded.

Now, not knowing international players of Bangladesh who were playing for quite some time can't be considered appropriate from a coach especially when he is going to take charge of those players.

Siddons is a part of the selection panel. He also decides the final XI. He could have easily avoided the debut of 4 players in the SA series if he wanted.

I guess it's always difficult to know players when you are on vacation.

Ok Miraz bhai I have a situation for you.

Imagine yourself to be a coach from another country and you have just recently taken over the role of coach for a foreign country that you don't have a lot of knowledge about.

Selection date comes and your main wicket-keeper isn't performing and one of the country's top ex-players, cricketing expert of the country and head selector tells you we should drop him we have a much better wicket-keeper in domestic cricket. Would you or would you not go by his words?

And do you really believe that Dav knew domestic performers when he took over?

And do you really think that Dav would've avoided these times if he was coach? Would Dav have been able to stop Rafique retiring? Could Dav have influenced this trigger-happy selection panel?

We fans are blind. We can't see how Jamie Siddons and Mohammad Ashraful are being made scapegoats by this adminstration(please keep in mind this is a totally different BCB then what it was during Whatmore's time).

Isn't it the BCB's job to stop Siddons taking vacations? Why aren't they stopping him? Jamie Siddons attended the Dhaka-Khulna NCL match only when the BCB invited him. Why isn't Jamie made to attend more matches? Why can't the BCB add that to Jamie's job description.

[Miraz]

Yap, it's the police's duty to prevent people from committing crime. People should have no moral obligation. Apologies for the analogy, but couldn't help it.

On Dav issue, Dav never showed any sign that he didn't know our players. He defnitely had shortcomings but he was smart enough to hide them.

bdchamp, If I was paid 20-30K a month, I would have definitely done enough homework before taking charge of any team.

[Sohel]

Dav instilled the right attitude any INTERNATIONAL coach of a TEST PLAYING NATION IS SUPPOSED TO instill.

Without that attitude, there cannot be any real improvement as exemplified by 1) mitigation of real technical issues, 2) the WILL TO COMPETE, and of course, 3) victories against the T8. Coach Siddons fails on all counts.

Again, back to the real thread topic: -

That is a tragedy made more poignant by the fact that as a team, we still cannot 1) find gaps and rotate the strike with ease, 2) play higher percentage ground strokes in the V, and 3) demonstrate the ability to "play each ball according to its merit", rather than just try and "play out the overs to salvage an honorable defeat", often without much success as expected from such a defeatist mindset.

Last but not least, I don't see us dealing any better with extra bounce, or swing, or pace, or movement, or spin any better. Well-scripted quality doosras and googlies still get us out 9 out of 10 times.

So, where is the improvement, Sid?

If our painfully inadequate domestic cricket is to take the ENTIRE blame, and if our players are ENTIRELY responsible for motivating themselves, then what exactly has YOUR job been so far, besides taking unwelcome liberties with our rare achievements, and toying with our passion?

We have the right to know, you know, since our taxes pay your salary ...

[bdchamp20]

Originally Posted by Miraz
Yap, it's the police's duty to prevent people from committing crime. People should have no moral obligation. Apologies for the analogy, but couldn't help it.

On Dav issue, Dav never showed any sign that he didn't know our players. He defnitely had shortcomings but he was smart enough to hide them.

bdchamp, If I was paid 20-30K a month, I would have definitely done enough homework before taking charge of any team.

Haha! Sorry Miraz bhai kintu ei duita situation thik milena...lol. This is more like a student going to the toilet without the teacher's permission. Now I'm sure Jamie Siddons didn't call up the BCB president an hour before his flight and say: 'Hey mate I am going to Sydney in an hour, see you in a month's time.' He doesn't seem that rude a person, the vacation was probably pre-approved by the BCB before a month or so. And I am also sure that once he knew he was close to getting the job he bother to do some research atleast. Why would you blame him for not knowing anything about Bangladesh, how many international cricket pundits follow every BD game? And did he ever think he was going to be in charge of Bangladesh cricket team? And do you remember how the whole coach search program was carried out by the BCB after 3-4 months they came up with 3 names, one of them was John Harmer and when he came to Bangladesh I though he was our new coach but as it turned out he was only there for a camp and was never interested in the job and subsequently all 3 candidates, including Siddons turned down the job. Then one day on The Daily Star I find out Jamie Siddons has been appointed coach.

[thebest]

Originally Posted by bdchamp20
No it was most certainly not Siddon's decision to include 4 debutants in the squad. It was the selectors who took the decision, and it's the selectors who I blame for the mess we are in. Siddons is a new man to the country and has admitted that he doesn't know most Bangladeshi players(I believe same was the case when Dav Whatmore took over but instead of admitting it he probably spent an hour on CricInfo researching BD players before the interview) and so he trusted the selectors. And it also might be the case that Dav had good relations with the selectors and had more say on selection than Siddons has. You are right, instead of carrying on from where Dav left of he decided to break off everything and rebuild from scratch which wasn't the smartest of decisions but a decision which might pay off in the long term. We might be heading towards or already are in dark times but remember golden times only come after you've struggled in dark times.

Is not it JS job to know about Bangladesh batting? I do not think DW has better relation with selectors than JS. Remember the last match Aloukik Kapali played under DW. He did not bowl and send to bat at 9. The way DW showed that he had no faith on selectors. I feel JS has much better relationship with selectors; otherwise how you could explain Russel playing in Ireland while selcetors claiming he is unfit to play in Asia Cup. As I mentioned in another thread he might took us two step forward (Miraz Bhai broke the myth) and take eight steps backward in the other two.
JS did not inherit a team which looses to the associates quite regulerly, he inherited a team which just have her best year as a test team. DW did that and made us proud in his first series at Aussiland. So comparing JS with DW is like comparing Ash with Tendy. BCB should fire him even it menas losing 1 million $, otherwise when JS tenure we could not hire coaches because supporters (with the exception of some die hard, Like Dr Z) would disappear along with the sponsors.
I do not know how many matches DW attended. A first class coach does not need to attend first class match to identify potential players. He should have his own network (how many matches Fergi attended). They should be their eyes. DW eyes did the job for him. JS's ODI core players (Sakib, Mushy, Tamim, Aftab, Ash, Mash, Russel) are all (bar Mash, Ash) identified by DW and groomed. I am already seeing TIfication of Farhad in JS era.
A head coach job is not to reinvent wheel, but to change the tire , realign the spike. DW knew that; JS not.
Before the Asia cup, I was the one who was claiming that he should be sacked and I still have no reason to change my opinion.
Those who claim that JS should be given enough time like DW to prove. But what about mid term evaluation. In his first season DW successfully conquer Aussi heart and almost bring us a test win in Pakistan. What about JS? We did not even have a sniff of win againest any team in his first season. And I think everybody agree JS inherit must stornger team and got much weaker opponent than DW in his first season

[Miraz]

bdhchamp, he had enough time to do the research after accepting the job. In fact he never showed the intention to know more about Bangladesh players or players in the pipeline.

[BanCricFan]

I say- we should wait a wee bit longer before making any concrete opinions about El-Sid. Despite the horrendous run since he took over I've seen some positive change which should buy him another six months or so. I do think Sid is a very poor communicator though which raise some doubts in my mind. ...Well we just have to wait a little bit longer!

we definitely need proper bowling coach for sure.

[bdchamp20]

Originally Posted by Miraz
bdhchamp, he had enough time to do the research after accepting the job. In fact he never showed the intention to know more about Bangladesh players or players in the pipeline.

Well after he accepted the job didn't he start knowing the national players anyway. Do you want him to know every single NCL player. Since he took over he has seen around 30-40 players some of them first hand in the national team and others in preparation/practice matches so that's basically everyone who are likely to play for Bangladesh in the next 2-3 years. And I believe as his knowledge about players is broadening he will want more authority over slection and will make better decisions than our gadha selectors. He is taking things too slow yes, but look at the effects: Tamim Iqbal is now scoring a 40+ score every 3/4 matches and he is slowly working through the lot. Please lets just be a little more patient and I tell you what if things dont improve by this time next year I will go out to the streets and demand Siddons' resignation.