Can it be sinful to _pray_ namaz?

[Zeeshan]

I am really curious as to what are resident poets BCF and blah think about it and our returning debate defender the al-Furqaan "the champ" Asaad.

Well, so if I pray tonight in an Islamic ritual but if I am insincere would it not make me a sinner? I swee..ar I am not trolling. I swear. It may be a semantic or logical cacophony ultimately but I was just curious as to differing but welcome viewpoints from all faculties of mankind.

Geniusly yours,

The gopal

[Zeeshan]

Dude, can you not go by a single second opening new discussions? Jeez...get a gun.

-Signed the Dil mera scoop Dilscoop

[Zeeshan]

Dr. Goru koi?? ?? Koi gelo...koi shei notun hotovaga user...

[iDumb]

why dont you grow up dude? This is childish I hope you realize that.

[ammark]

Originally Posted by Zeeshan
Well, so if I pray tonight in an Islamic ritual but if I am insincere would it not make me a sinner?

Havent read any of the other posts in this thread yet, but here's my attempt:

no, not a sinner... on the premise that the intention of praying whether as ritual or as a spiritual personal act - both are considered worship. A ritualised form of worship has its merits in the sense that the prayer may well be accepted and you will be forgiven.. especially because salat/namaz is worship, glorification of Allah, and the seeking of forgiveness. And Allah is Most Compassionate and Most Forgiving, as in this following parable (Hadith Qudsi):

"O son of Adam, as long as you call upon Me and put your hope in Me, I have forgiven you for what you have done and I do not mind. O son of Adam, if your sins were to reach the clouds of the sky and then you would seek My forgiveness, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, if you were to come to Me with sins that are close to filling the earth and then you would meet Me without ascribing any partners with Me, I would certainly bring to you forgiveness close to filling it."

Another case in point: From what I understood of the khutba from yesterday's Jummah at my jamaat... an intention with the remembrance of Allah (dhikr) that you're going to persist in whatever you do is a form of worship. So as an example, if you're a philosophy student you're arguing against Descarte's idea of the religiously guided/moral soul piloting the body and proponing existential nihilism.... even this otherwise 'unislamic' and possibly 'fruitless' argument is an act of worship in that you're endeavouring to be productive in your work as a student, and you are doing so with the remembrance of your Lord, regardless of whether it is a "ritual" form of worship. Similarly in the case of namaz, the ideal would be to pray with sincerity, truthfulness and humility. But a ritualistic practice still has its weight as long as an iota of good intention (in your case, worship for ritual's sake) is there. Another factor the khatib emphasised yesterday was that we should always be hopeful and never despair and doubt with regard to our Lord. As in, if you follow the 'remembrance of Allah' in our intentions and actions, its borne out of a hope for His mercy, and not out of hopelessness that one has sinned and is now beyond redemption.

The biggest thing that strikes me about the message of Islam is its role as a reminder of the transitory nature of this life while the everlasting hereafter awaits. All worship is an investment for the Hereafter. If you are a person with faith in the Islamic message ritualistic namaz is still an investment for that afterlife.

ps: as per the Hadith Qudsi quoted above.... notice the only exception from being forgiven is that the seeker of forgiveness shall not "ascribe partners and equals to Allah" (worship other deities). Its also self-evident that someone who would go through the trouble of seeking forgiveness has not rejected God in the first place.

[Zeeshan]

Thanks!

[Tiger Manc]

There are certain times that are haram for you to pray. If I'm not mistaken it's a time when the sun rises and also a short time before Maghrib salah.

[Zeeshan]

@the ammark

It will veer the topic but let us shall carry the discussion a step further.

Lately I have been listening to a lot of Alan Watts and one thing he makes it clear is that Judeo-Christian religions, even Islam, makes existence itself a factor of GUILT. Why is there a concept of sin in the first place? Why the need for seek of forgiveness?

That is why he has a bias and so do I towards Eastern religions although mine's slightly towards the myticism such as Advaita trend where duality is not perceived at all in the Ultimate Sense.

[BanCricFan]

Originally Posted by Zeeshan

Well, so if I pray tonight in an Islamic ritual but if I am insincere would it not make me a sinner?.... It may be a semantic or logical cacophony ultimately.

l

Dear Gopal,

How about trying to convert insincerity into sincerity and then we dont have to grapple with the rest...i.e, you running the risk of being a "sinner". If this be too hard a task for you then I suggest you "fake it till you make it" Many have actually benefited from this process in adding positive qualities to their being. Anyhow, all actions are but intention.

Islam actually don't have a concept of "sin". Therefore, no "original sin" either. To err is human and to forgive is Divine. Interestingly, the arabic word for human is insaan. The etymology of Insaan is connected to forgetfulness. So, human are forgetful by our very nature. Hence, the canonical prayers (5 prayers for muslims) during the course of a day to re-connect us with our Lord/Creator/Source and take us out of the state of heedlessness/forgetfulness which usually is the consequence of the Maya elements of this world (Lower World).

[Zeeshan]

Originally Posted by BanCricFan
Islam actually don't have a concept of "sin". Therefore, no "original sin" either. To err is human and to forgive is Divine. Interestingly, the arabic word for human is insaan. The etymology of Insaan is connected to forgetfulness. So, human are forgetful by our very nature. Hence, the canonical prayers (5 prayers for muslims) during the course of a day to re-connect us with our Lord/Creator/Source and take us out of the state of heedlessness/forgetfulness which usually is the consequence of the Maya elements of this world (Lower World).

Interesting. Can you elaborate more on that?

[mufi_02]

Originally Posted by Zeeshan
Interesting. Can you elaborate more on that?

From what I understand, an individual is not responsible for the mistakes of his/her ancestors. For example, me and you are not accountable for the mistake of Adam and won't be questioned for that. Every child is born without any sin, has a clean slate, we only accumulate sin through misdeeds in adult life.

[ammark]

Well frankly Gopal, debating sin is a bit out of my league, but I will say this. Judaism does not fundamentally carry a concept of 'Hell' for themselves (with the presumption that sinners = go to hell) as they are God's chosen people. In contrast to much of Christian doctrine, Muslims believe in 'sawab' - currency for God's favour/ your investment for the afterlife, contrasted with Jesus having paid for our sins.

Now I will disagree with the idea that the Islamic notion of existence is tied to guilt. The Islamic narrative on existence repeats over and over, that this life is temporary, short and transitory. Islam's definition of existence is of the soul - timeless and everlasting. Muslims say that this life is for 'Allah's pleasure'.. fundamentally, Be good, do good, be a good person, and be aware of Allah in this fleeting life. It is a 'reminder'. Remembering God in Islam is a function of Iman - unrequited belief without doubt.

By definition, a Muslim embraces belief (the 6 stages of Iman) or one doesnt believe and rejects it. ("Whomsoever Allah guides, none can misguide, and whomsoever is not guided, none can guide). I cant seem to reconcile 'guilt' in this because, guilt if as a function of human understanding comes in, so should hope. In Islamic thought, being positive and hopeful is a duty to oneself, than to be guilty. Is that to say that the Quran does not have threats about the Hellfire? Of course it does, and I'm sure guilt plays a part for many Muslims to remain 'religious'. Probably for many hujurs, talking about the hellfire is an easier argument to make people religious than to talk about hopefulness of Allah's mercy and guidance.

Now from what you said, it may be helpful to distinguish between Islam as a religion with its layers of theology, versus the Islam of inner spirituality. They are not mutually exclusive, one exists within the other. In this modern day, many people also practice the spiritual traditions of Islam without embracing the religion. But they are both grounded entirely on Iman and belief. There can be no rejection from that. And all the sufi tarikas still embrace wholly the 5 pillars of Islam. Connection to God is the ultimate goal of Islamic spirituality, and namaz borne out of spirituality will be more sincere than for rituals sake, always.