Ian Pont and his Butterfly Effect - saaay what???

[Ian Pont]

Originally Posted by tiger_army
What can I say, its really easy and its also hard to make bangalis happy, we are a confused nation. Before you we had Champaka as a bowling coach who virtually created Malinga. So everybody thought we will have 5 Malingas in next 2 years. Our fast bowlers started improving and we had dozens of threads in BC praising Champaka. I am pretty sure he tried to improve our bowlers like Rajiv and whenever he failed everyone started blaming Champaka. Eventually he lost his job and you came and people are thinking we will have 5 dale steyns soon. So its a same story again and again. I know you guise are trying your best. If you can create Dale steyn then you can create Shafiul or Rube. But its upto them if they want to reach that stage. I hope Shafiul or Rubel understand their value and utilize the options.

Tiger Army: I don't have any issue with fans' unrealistic expectations. They pay their money to watch and can criticise all they want. But it does get kinda tedious to read what people think/say about BD cricket without understanding cricket at all sometimes.

Champaka certainly discovered Malinga (not sure he CREATED him) and I worked with Dale Steyn (and certainly did not CREATE him either). But both Malinga and Steyn are clearly massively talented individuals with Steyn at number 1 in the world. Both bowl over 150 kph.

I can help develop any fast bowler given the time to work with them and their commitment to change. How good they can be is all about their natural ability but that's what I bring out. With a camp of 8-10 quicks from Bangladesh and the time and commitment to development them, there is no reason why we can't have 4 really good quicks for the national team. It's taken Dale 5 years of hard work to get to the top.

[MarufH]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
Yes Lamisa... he wasn't confident in a WC match to get it wrong. It can end up as a beamer by mistake then he would be in trouble. If you are not absolutely 100% certain of yourself then don't do it. I don't see that as a problem personally, but rather quite responsible. This is the WC and not some friendly match played at the local park.

I note you tend to be quite a negative poster having seen some of your comments before. So let me say I back Shafiul 100% and predict that he will develop into one of BD best quick bowlers.

Sometimes you have to understand cricket a bit more to realise what is going on.

Lamisa got served by the coach.

[betaar]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
Shafiul and Nazmul are the only two squad members who can bowl this ball. Nazmul never got selected and Shafiul wasn't confident enough to bowl it at the WC despite bowling it well in practice. He stuck to his regular two other slower balls we worked on.

I cannot force people to bowl the butterfly and the bowlers decide when it's right to try it if they wish.

And if your a*** reacts like a butterfly delivery as you claim I suggest you see a doctor immediately.

Ian, I would like to apologize for the BC member who made that comment. I guess some people are frustrated and are taking that out on who ever. But let me clear something out. I am not sure if you read my thread opening message (which was from Dec 2^nd) but my real concern was the execution of basics during the match. Whether that was a failure due to the inability of a particular bowler or failure of a coach was the question that was lurking in my head around that time (Zim series). But since then my personal view about your positive effect on our fast bowlers has grown exponentially, with or without the BUTTERFLY ball.

My observation from this WC suggest that at times Shafiul bowled few notches beyond what he looked to be capable of before your arrival but also failed to execute doing the simple basic stuff against 2 big oppositions, can you please tell us why? Is he not mentally strong given his tender age? Or is there something else?

The biggest improvement I see is Rubel Hossain. Before you joined our team, I thought he would be just a “what if” fast bowler. He had good pace and was very nippy due to his slingy action but erratic most of the time. But since NZ series, there’s a stark improvement in his line and length and has been pretty consistent. Unlike Shafiul, he didn’t get his 15 mins of glory because of the stupendous bowling performances Shafiul displayed in 2 matches, but I am sure the improvement tracking curve for Rubel is far consistent than anyone in the team. I think Rubel is a type of bowler who will be always tough to get away from irrespective of the pitch condition if he can get his line and length right and so far he has done that since your presence.

But what I see is missing from either of the bowlers is the ability to cut the ball sharply in either direction. I know our pitches are not tailor made for fast bowlers but if bowlers such as Mpofu of Zim and Tsotsobe of SA and Sammy and Roach of WI were able to extract that extra bit of bounce and darted the ball around, why can’t ours? I know this may not be the right thread for that question but since we are on topic, I thought I’d ask.

[MarufH]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
Shafiul and Nazmul are the only two squad members who can bowl this ball. Nazmul never got selected and Shafiul wasn't confident enough to bowl it at the WC despite bowling it well in practice. He stuck to his regular two other slower balls we worked on.

I cannot force people to bowl the butterfly and the bowlers decide when it's right to try it if they wish.

And if your a*** reacts like a butterfly delivery as you claim I suggest you see a doctor immediately.

Hahahahahhaahaha.. I couldn't stop laughing. I am at the office. Thanks coach. I was having a bad day.

[wasi90lkv1]

coach ian pont,

what is butterfly delivery, is it an inswinger or outswinger? is it a fast version of doosra or teesra? can you describe the delivery? i am just curious.

[dolcevita]

Can't blame the coach bd players can't perform under pressure ( except Shakib)

Posted via BC Mobile Edition (iPhone)

[RazabQ]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
I cannot force people to bowl the butterfly and the bowlers decide when it's right to try it if they wish.

And if your a*** reacts like a butterfly delivery as you claim I suggest you see a doctor immediately.

As myself:
pwned

Good one Ian

[shuziburo]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
Shafiul and Nazmul are the only two squad members who can bowl this ball. Nazmul never got selected and Shafiul wasn't confident enough to bowl it at the WC despite bowling it well in practice. He stuck to his regular two other slower balls we worked on.

I cannot force people to bowl the butterfly and the bowlers decide when it's right to try it if they wish.

And if your a*** reacts like a butterfly delivery as you claim I suggest you see a doctor immediately.

Good one.

[shuziburo]

Actually, I am thinking why not try Shafiul, Rubel, and Nazmul. Shakib and Razzak will be the two specialist spinners. I am for trying Riyad at 4. We need a consolidator here, but not a slow-poke like Mushy. With Riyad here, we'll have 3 spinners as well.

[shuziburo]

I am happy with Ian and Julien's work. I cannot say the same with Jamie Siddons. At the risk of repeating myself, a head coach should be someone with a vision and plan. If something does not go according to the plan, then there should be a contingency plan. I never saw that from JS. He has "his" guys and when one failed another of his guys was brought in. As a result, we have Riyad, a top-order batsman playing at 6/7. Jahurul, despite a 31.20 average in ODI was not even in the team. He is not a specialist WK, but still is way better than Mushfiqur "I can only stamp" Rahim, whose ODI average is 23.00. Zunaed "I average 24 in all forms of cricket" Siddiqui has a stronghold at No 3. Every team has weaknesses and they have worked on correcting them. Except us. We recycled old wines in new bottles. That will not do. Sorry...

[6alltheway]

Ian,

I have one question. Is speaking to the players in English a problem for you? Most of the BD players speak very little or no English. They probably don understand much, how do you go about teaching players a sport in a foreign language?

To get a comfort zone with players and a genuine rapport with players is so important. Do you think you have or can get that with the language barrier?

Something's can get lost in translation and good communication is vitally important.

I think you have done an wonderful job with the talent on disposal.

[Ian Pont]

Originally Posted by betaar
Ian, I would like to apologize for the BC member who made that comment. I guess some people are frustrated and are taking that out on who ever. But let me clear something out. I am not sure if you read my thread opening message (which was from Dec 2^nd) but my real concern was the execution of basics during the match. Whether that was a failure due to the inability of a particular bowler or failure of a coach was the question that was lurking in my head around that time (Zim series). But since then my personal view about your positive effect on our fast bowlers has grown exponentially, with or without the BUTTERFLY ball.

My observation from this WC suggest that at times Shafiul bowled few notches beyond what he looked to be capable of before your arrival but also failed to execute doing the simple basic stuff against 2 big oppositions, can you please tell us why? Is he not mentally strong given his tender age? Or is there something else?

The biggest improvement I see is Rubel Hossain. Before you joined our team, I thought he would be just a “what if” fast bowler. He had good pace and was very nippy due to his slingy action but erratic most of the time. But since NZ series, there’s a stark improvement in his line and length and has been pretty consistent. Unlike Shafiul, he didn’t get his 15 mins of glory because of the stupendous bowling performances Shafiul displayed in 2 matches, but I am sure the improvement tracking curve for Rubel is far consistent than anyone in the team. I think Rubel is a type of bowler who will be always tough to get away from irrespective of the pitch condition if he can get his line and length right and so far he has done that since your presence.

But what I see is missing from either of the bowlers is the ability to cut the ball sharply in either direction. I know our pitches are not tailor made for fast bowlers but if bowlers such as Mpofu of Zim and Tsotsobe of SA and Sammy and Roach of WI were able to extract that extra bit of bounce and darted the ball around, why can’t ours? I know this may not be the right thread for that question but since we are on topic, I thought I’d ask.

Not sure ROACH got ANY bounce to be honest on the Dhaka pitch...

Mpofu and Tsotsobe are of course GIANTS compared to our bowlers and you would expect them to extract more bounce from any pitch.

I am not quite sure what you expect from Shafiul if you are saying he couldn't do it against the big boys. He isn't a machine, he's human. And he's not ranked number one in the world or even in the top 50. He's a young kid learning how to bowl and the same goes for Rubel.

I am really going to defend my fast bowlers here because they get a raw deal. They have had to live with a rotation policy before my arrival where they don't get an extended run in the side. Nazmul for example, hasn't played since October 5th in an ODI (only bowled 4 overs in a WC warm up).

We are asking our quicks to perform like seasoned professionals from other teams but they are still trying to get used to playing regularly and being giving the responsibility to perform and not whipped off to be replaced by a spinner yet again.

When I arrived I was told the fast bowlers were not very good and they leaked a huge amount of runs at the start and at the end. They could not be trusted I was told.

Shafiul and Rubel have variously bowled good spells in my time here and Rubel in particular has been unlucky not to get more wickets. So i feel progress is being made. Steady progress, not a 'flash in the pan' progress that is a fluke. It's a steady climb and we are making it. That means they will often get things wrong on the BIGGEST STAGE OF ALL. If they didn't then they would be in the top 10 bowlers in the world, which they aren't at the moment.

[Ian Pont]

Originally Posted by 6alltheway
Ian,

I have one question. Is speaking to the players in English a problem for you? Most of the BD players speak very little or no English. They probably don understand much, how do you go about teaching players a sport in a foreign language?

To get a comfort zone with players and a genuine rapport with players is so important. Do you think you have or can get that with the language barrier?

Something's can get lost in translation and good communication is vitally important.

I think you have done an wonderful job with the talent on disposal.

With the bowlers, Nazmul speaks the best English, then Shafiul then Rubel. i do get the message across! 80% of all communication is NON verbal.

It was a shame Sujon chose to leave as he would have been a good help to me with that, and also I could have helped teach him to coach. But we have worked around that.

[Avik]

I was in the bandwagon of people who thought Rubel was just a fast bowler (bowler who just knows how to bowl fast, nothing else).

but in the last few months, I have noticed his gradual improvement, his bowling to a plan. he has been the most consistent bd bowler in this world cup. that is why I would say you have done a commendable job coach. hope you provide the riches for his rise to become one of the top bowlers of the world.

[deshprem]

Originally Posted by nura43
100% agreed. A coach can teach techniques only.....unfortunately they cannot play the game for us in the field. Well your teacher teaches u everything and u also understand what he teaches but in the exam u can't write anything on the exam paper.......is it the teacher's fault?

Guys please grow up and blame the right person(s) for the failure......get over the allergies u have about Jamie Siddons.

people tend to be understanding of what Ian is saying and generally supportive. My question is if Siddons said the same things about or batsmen, would the people receive it the same as Ian saying it?

there is a lot of mindless and unimformed siddons bashing. everyone thinks they know better because they can create awesoem excel spreadsheets and give stats. you are not there in flesh and blood, stop giving coaches a hard time.

having said that, everyones entitled to their opinion....

[WarWolf]

Originally Posted by deshprem
people tend to be understanding of what Ian is saying and generally supportive. My question is if Siddons said the same things about or batsmen, would the people receive it the same as Ian saying it?

there is a lot of mindless and unimformed siddons bashing. everyone thinks they know better because they can create awesoem excel spreadsheets and give stats. you are not there in flesh and blood, stop giving coaches a hard time.

having said that, everyones entitled to their opinion....

People give support to Ian cause he is new. Someone new should get some time before his deeds are justified. Siddons also had that period. But after 4 years of time you cannot expect to be treated the same way.

[deshprem]

Originally Posted by WarWolf
People give support to Ian cause he is new. Someone new should get some time before his deeds are justified. Siddons also had that period. But after 4 years of time you cannot expect to be treated the same way.

well if Ian and Julien are going to stay for the long haul- guys you know what to expect!

coaches- if you don't produce the right stats, this forum is full of geniouses that can coach better than you.

siddons has produced some of our best players- tamim and shakib. what ian says is tru- 'the desire to learn' these two have something in common- they have the desire and the commitment. with the right coaching, they have produced results.

occasionally we have seen brilliances from others too- imrul kayes, siddique, rakibul, mushy, riyad, not to mention shafiul and rubel.

all this shows is the players in our team all develope at different rates. if anything our teams has moved forward however fast or slow...due to certain players. our team has not gone backwards.

[Jadukor]

Originally Posted by deshprem
siddons has produced some of our best players- tamim and shakib. what ian says is tru- 'the desire to learn' these two have something in common- they have the desire and the commitment. with the right coaching, they have produced results.

What to you mean Siddons produced Tamim and Shakib?... they were a part of the 2007 worldcup squad under Whatmore. I agree that Siddons did develop Tamim a great deal... but these guys were not identified by him. If Siddons was the coach before the 2007 worldcup i doubt he would have taken any risk to even include Tamim in the squad and I say that because we didn't try any new talents over the past year

[deshprem]

Originally Posted by Jadukor
What to you mean Siddons produced Tamim and Shakib?... they were a part of the 2007 worldcup squad under Whatmore. I agree that Siddons did develop Tamim a great deal... but these guys were not identified by him. If Siddons was the coach before the 2007 worldcup i doubt he would have taken any risk to even include Tamim in the squad and I say that because we didn't try any new talents over the past year

i meant developed them..either way, dosnt change the point.

why wud u want him to try new talent? he has less of chance of doing that when our players are dominating the domestic league. and shakib has a say in team selection as well. dont just look at siddons.

we have stick to a core group of players. the place to try new talent is in A team competitions not the odi level. . once they have conquered that, then they can come into the team. we know what happens when you bring in players prematurely into the international arena. a lot of players 18 n 19 yo needed more prior exposure before getting into the team.

and why would try out new talent a year from the world cup? is a year enough to giv them enough experience to cope mentally with the world cup? obviously not! because our current bunch still havent learnt how to.

[Tiger Manc]

Ian,

I'd like to apologise for my rude comment, it was out of frustration. I was disappointed to see the fast bowlers getting whacked, especially Shafiul after seeing that wonderful performance against Netherlands.

I do feel the delivery was over-hyped imo. There was a lot of talk in the media and amongst the fans and it was disappointing to see that it wasn't even delivered at all. Tamim also over-hyped scoring a century partnership against SA and the entire team couldn't even score 100.

Hope to see the 'Projapoti' against the Aussies!

[Ian Pont]

Originally Posted by Tiger Manc
Ian,

I'd like to apologise for my rude comment, it was out of frustration. I was disappointed to see the fast bowlers getting whacked, especially Shafiul after seeing that wonderful performance against Netherlands.

I do feel the delivery was over-hyped imo. There was a lot of talk in the media and amongst the fans and it was disappointing to see that it wasn't even delivered at all. Tamim also over-hyped scoring a century partnership against SA and the entire team couldn't even score 100.

Hope to see the 'Projapoti' against the Aussies!

I never overhyped it though. You said media and fans did but you took it out on me and Shafiul. Apology accepted

[shuziburo]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
I never overhyped it though. You said media and fans did but you took it out on me and Shafiul. Apology accepted

I just learned how to properly accept apology. Let the offender know how s/he wronged you and then accept apology.

[shuziburo]

Originally Posted by deshprem
well if Ian and Julien are going to stay for the long haul- guys you know what to expect!

coaches- if you don't produce the right stats, this forum is full of geniouses that can coach better than you.

siddons has produced some of our best players- tamim and shakib. what ian says is tru- 'the desire to learn' these two have something in common- they have the desire and the commitment. with the right coaching, they have produced results.

occasionally we have seen brilliances from others too- imrul kayes, siddique, rakibul, mushy, riyad, not to mention shafiul and rubel.

all this shows is the players in our team all develope at different rates. if anything our teams has moved forward however fast or slow...due to certain players. our team has not gone backwards.

Again, the bowling and fielding coaches have well-defined narrow goals. Ian and Julien accomplished those goals, at least in the short term.

A head coach's job is broader. Yes, Siddons helped TIK and SAH develop at least to an extent, although TIK's average has not risen much since WC 2007. I don't know how much he has helped IK. Perhaps he did. May be it was IK's hard work and persistence. But, please don't even bring up Zunaed "I average 24 in all forms of cricket" Siddiqui or Mushfiqur "I cannot bat, catch or stop" Rahim. JS played a top-order batsman like Riyad as a slogger. Rock at least has a decent average, despite a poor SR. He has not helped Shafiul or Rubel. Both were quite expensive before the NZ series. Much of their improvement can be attributed to Ian Pont.

A coach's job is to build a team, with no favoritism. If you check my earlier posts, I was not critical of Siddons and recommended patience. Well, four years is a long enough time to verify whether a head coach has a vision and plan or he was simply bumbling along. We have had problem with Nos. 3, 4, 6, and 7 for years and all he has done was to try top-order batsmen at 6 and 7 and recycling "his boys" at 3 and 4. That was not a good plan and unsurprisingly, it did not work. Jamie Siddons gets a D+. I would have given him an F, but he should get credit for whatever individual batting improvement we have seen in certain players.

[lamisa]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
Yes Lamisa... he wasn't confident in a WC match to get it wrong. It can end up as a beamer by mistake then he would be in trouble. If you are not absolutely 100% certain of yourself then don't do it. I don't see that as a problem personally, but rather quite responsible. This is the WC and not some friendly match played at the local park.

I note you tend to be quite a negative poster having seen some of your comments before. So let me say I back Shafiul 100% and predict that he will develop into one of BD best quick bowlers.

Sometimes you have to understand cricket a bit more to realise what is going on.

i am as positive as one can get about bd cricket.given the mismanagement that goes on,yes i do become critical at times but that doesn't mean i am not positive about our cricket.it's because i am so optimistic that i speak negatively at times for our cricket's good.however,if u are referring to some of the posts that i have made about u,yes i have been pessimistic about u lately because of the whole WI stoning incident and your comments and actions but let's not indulge in further discussion regarding this issue because u have had ur say regarding this matter and i have read all of it.about the butterfly,i felt that u spoke of it too early and it was kind of disappointing to not see it when this was being discussed a couple of months before the WC even started

[Ian Pont]

Originally Posted by lamisa
i am as positive as one can get about bd cricket.given the mismanagement that goes on,yes i do become critical at times but that doesn't mean i am not positive about our cricket.it's because i am so optimistic that i speak negatively at times for our cricket's good.however,if u are referring to some of the posts that i have made about u,yes i have been pessimistic about u lately because of the whole WI stoning incident and your comments and actions but let's not indulge in further discussion regarding this issue because u have had ur say regarding this matter and i have read all of it.about the butterfly,i felt that u spoke of it too early and it was kind of disappointing to not see it when this was being discussed a couple of months before the WC even started

....That bolded italicised part above made NO sense by the way.....

I didn't write the article in the newspaper about the butterfly - I was interviewed about it. How can I speak of it too early when the journalist saw it being bowled and asked what it was? You make it sound like I started the media campaign about the butterfly stuff.

I don't write the newspapers and control the media....

I know you want to seemingly blame me that we are out of the WC without the butterfly being bowled and it's my fault the fans throw stones at the buses and cause a major security breach.

I am fast learning that some BD fans like to blame everything and everybody.