Saddam captured!!!

[Hasib]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3317429.stm

[Zobair]

I hope he is put to trial...a genuine one!...for his crimes...

[nasifkhan]

And Finally Iraq is fully captured by the Americans.

[Ehsan]

Originally posted by nasifkhan
And Finally Iraq is fully captured by the Americans.

NO!!! The war from Nationalists will still continue. America would never get a peace of mind in Iraq.

[Edited on 14-12-2003 by ehsan]

[Sham]

Lets not lose sight of the bigger picture. No matter how anti-US you are (and I am too), its no longer about US gaining peace of mind. Its about Iraq's stability. This is good for Iraq, and if it brings about a reduction in the insurgencies and quickens US withdrawal, then its excellent for Iraq. We can't allow our hatred for Bush to cloud reason. Also, no matter how much you hate Bush, it doesn't take away from the fact that Saddam was a monster and its only right that he faces a court of law, something unfortunately Hitler and Polpot didn't have to and looks like James Taylor and Pinochet won't have to either.

[nasifkhan]

yes....its very much true that Saddam was a real monster and he also killed many ppl. may be countless.

But after the capturing of Saddam ....the Iraq will now be like Afganistan. May be in few months time USA will withdrawl its forces but they will never ever withdrawal the control over Iraq. Iraq will have thier own govt. by their own ppl and these ppls will be Governed by USA.

[Orpheus]

We got em in working condition!

[Ockey]

I think the people of Iraq are better off being ruled by the US then another dictator like Sadaam or any royal monarch.

Is it so bad for a country to be rebuilt by the US?? Look at Germany and Japan - two countries that were devasted after the WWII- and how quickly they rebuild themselves with the help of western countries including the US to be two of the most powerful nations (economically) in the world. And let's look at Afghanistan. Is it better or worse off now than they were under the Taleban regime?

nasifkhan arn't you currently living in the US reaping the benefits of democracy, justice and equality and exercising your right for free speech? God forbid you happen to be an Ahamadi living in Bangladesh or in the Middle East. Oh I forgot...you probably would have been executed if you were found in a place like Saudi Arabia - a country that is seen as a bechmark for all Muslim socities around the world! To all the religious scholars in the forum: please don't know reply saying we shouldn't judge the religion by looking at Saudi Arabi... because I just made the point above.

Some of you maybe of the opinion that Iraqis will be forced to adopt western values....my opinion is that: hey if that means the people of Iraq will be prosperous then let them decide what values they want to adopt. Most Iraqis live in virtual poverty and if they have to put food on the table by adopting different way of life then let them have the choice. I'd rather swallow my inherited morals than hear my belly cry.

[Zobair]

actually ockey...nafiskhan lives in Bangladesh! goes to school in Bangladesh!

For the sake of Iraq, I hope the Iraqi people are the masters of their own destiny...not forcefully spoon fed by the big mama...all the violence against US has caught it by surprise and I have a feeling next time they feel like liberating the suffering people of another land they will give it more thought...

[Ockey]

Pompus do you mean NasifKhan and NOT NafisKhan

Perhaps I was thinking about Nasif...or maybe Nacer?? In any case my apologies.

[Edited on 15-12-2003 by Ockey]

[Arnab]

Most Iraqis live in virtual poverty.

Wasn't Iraq the most advanced, most educated and secular Arab nation in the Middle East before all these wars and sanctions began?

Iraq is not comparable to Afghanistan in any way.

[Edited on 15-12-2003 by Arnab]

[Carte Blanche]

Whoever it is, Nasif, Nafis, or even Nascer, why get personal on them? Get your facts straight. I don't see any Nafis posting on this thread. Neither did Nascer. Only Nasifkhan did, if you paid enough attention, you'd see his location is in BD. Even if they live in US and reap the benefits of the west, thats their business.

PS: ... haha orphy, i knew you'd say that :P

[Carte Blanche]

Right Arnab.

[nasifkhan]

Originally posted by pompous
actually ockey...nafiskhan lives in Bangladesh! goes to school in Bangladesh!

For the sake of Iraq, I hope the Iraqi people are the masters of their own destiny...not forcefully spoon fed by the big mama...all the violence against US has caught it by surprise and I have a feeling next time they feel like liberating the suffering people of another land they will give it more thought...

hey man.....watch your mouth....
who told u I go to school.......?????

[Nasif]

NasifKhan here in US the word "school" is used a general term which can mean university, college, or even high school Pompous was just trying to be helpful. I am sure he didn't mean you go to high school.

[Zobair]

chill man!...I know you go to a university...how is school (which in case means university) going for you?

[Ockey]

Most educated..arguably yes
Most advanced...no, not by any stretch of the imagination. Historically they might have been but not in the last 30 years. Talk to people who have actually lived there, non-Iraqis and Iraqis and see if they concur. Even before the Gulf War there was poverty outside the cities. On secularism - their secularism was enforced by Sadaam and the Baath party.

One more thing...I was NOT trying to compare Iraq with Afghanistan...just pointing out that being occupied by America and rebuilding under them is not such a bad thing. Decades of hostilities have ended and waring factions are finally beginning to disarm.

[Arnab]

OK here's what I read about Iraq's education system, especially focusing on Iraqi women:

Before the Gulf War in 1991, the UN graded Iraq's standard of living equal to that of Greece. And the status of Iraqi women reflected this.

Within two decades of Ba'ath Party control, literacy for women was 88 percent, up from 23 percent in 1970. In the 1970s and '80s, facing a labor shortage, the government actively encouraged women to join the work force. In 1974, it decreed that all university graduates would automatically be employed.

New laws prohibited sex discrimination on the job and sexual harassment. Much-needed reforms were begun regarding divorce and inheritance. Abortion was not legalized, but contraception and family-planning information were widely available.

Iraq's educational system was legendary for its accessibility and efficiency. The government built new schools, trained teachers and doctors and scientists. More than half the university student population was female. Working women typically got six months fully paid maternity leave and an additional six months at half pay. Equal pay for equal work was common.

It was unimaginable that Iraqi women would be molested for not wearing the facial veil or for walking down the street unaccompanied by a male, as in Saudi Arabia. They were not segregated at work or in the mosques, and of course they drove cars and voted ? both illegal in Saudi Arabia. Women were notably active in public life and commonly in positions of management over male employees.

[Arnab]

By the way, the propaganda machine is already at work. The Education Ministry of the Provisional Authority (US chamcha)starts their new webpage with:

"Prior to the 1970s, Iraq?s educational system was considered one of the best in the Middle East, especially in science and mathematics."

How convenient, 1970...just before Saddam arrived on the scene! Then Iraq's education suddenly plunged into dark ages. :P

The lying chamcha's don't even realize that their version of history don't match with the one presented by Boro Dada (USAID):

Prior to the 1990s, Iraq had one of the best education systems in the Middle East with universal primary school enrollment and high rates of literacy among women. However, a decade later school enrollment for all ages declined to approximately 53 percent. Today, renovations and repairs are greatly needed due to years of neglect under Saddam Hussein's regime.

---------------

Ummm, so exactly what happened after 1990? I mean Saddam wasn't in power SINCE 1990 but 20 years before that. Why did he suddenly start neglecting his educational system after 20 years?

OOH that's right, there was something called the gulf war, which destroyed the whole civilian infrastructure in Iraq. Then there was sanctions that made people jobless, fall into poverty or leave their country altogether (in the case of educated middle class), which in turn made the Iraqi society less educated, more fundamentalist and conservative. I see. Hmmm...

I swear these pathetic lying hypocrites make my blood boil sometimes.

[Edited on 15-12-2003 by Arnab]

[Arnab]

Here's a better rundown from csmonitor:

Early in his rule, Saddam was credited with creating one of the strongest school systems in the Middle East. Iraq won a UNESCO prize for eradicating illiteracy in 1982. Literacy rates for women were among the highest of all Islamic nations, and unlike most Middle East school systems, Iraqi education was largely secular.

But, in the decade after the 1991 Gulf War, UNICEF estimates, school spending plummeted by 90 percent. Teachers' salaries dropped to $6 a month and buildings deteriorated.

The US says Saddam starved the schools to spend money on his palaces, but many Iraqis say United Nations sanctions are to blame for crippling the school system - one small example of a contentious issue history-textbook writers will grapple with.

By 2002, the US Agency for International Development estimated that school enrollment had fallen to 53 percent.

Link:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1104/p11s01-legn.html

[Ockey]

Education does not equal advancement. Iraq's education system was one of the best prior to the Gulf war. Arabs from richer countries actually went to study in Baghdad University.

But Iraq didn't have any industries apart from the oil industry and so the sactions after the war had a crippling effect.

Being that it was the second largest oil producer before the Gulf War, Iraq made fewer advancements that any of the other oil producing countries in the region. And to validate this statement you really had to be visit Iraq and the other ME countries. So like I said talk to the people who have been there and see what they say.

As to why Iraq lagged behind with relatively small population and large export capacity, I leave that to your imagination. I believe it might have had something to do with their leadership.

[Arnab]

And to validate this statement you really had to be visit Iraq and the other ME countries.

Man, you're asking the wrong person here. My dad actually went to Iraq in the early 1970s to take part in civilian infrastructure projects right after he got his Civil Engineering degree from BD.

Not that it matters a lot.

But, I strongly suspect the validity of your following statements:

1. Education does not equal advancement.

2. But Iraq didn't have any industries apart from the oil industry

3. Iraq made fewer advancements that any of the other oil producing countries in the region

4. Iraq lagged behind with relatively small population and large export capacity

You have to back up your statements.


[Edited on 15-12-2003 by Arnab]

[Ockey]

My parents have been living in the ME for the last 30 years or so as well. Will try to back up my sweeping statements after my exams are over.


[Edited on 15-12-2003 by Ockey]

[rafiq]

Ockey, I'll give you one good reason why a country getting rebuilt by the US is a bad thing:

BECAUSE I AM PAYING FOR IT!! We the people in the US are paying $$ for blowing up a country in the first place and then rebuilding it. My kid can't come back from after school chess club because the school system doesn't have a late bus anymore. I'd like to pay for that instead of Iraq, so would my neighbors.

The US used to be an open society and a symbol of freedom. Now we are busy chasing ghosts all over the place, and most of them don't exist. You should have heard the Hans Blix (weapons inspector) interview today on National Public Radio - he doesn't think there will be any new WMD info out of Saddam other than confirmation of when he had them destroyed. And we went to war over that? So Iraq could be rebuilt? I don't give a damn about it's education system, I care about the one my kid goes to school in.

[Orpheus]

I don't give a damn about it's education system, I care about the one my kid goes to school in.

Now that's American! that's what I am talking about.. You go! Inshallah gasoline will be dollar a gallon

I think your tax money is being spent on the chess board.... so don't complain too much!