Tamim is advocating for Jamie. Please read it and post ur comments.

[mafizraju]

Originally Posted by mar umpire
I agree also.

Tamim has problems, but that doesn't mean we tear apart everything he has to say or do-tamim has been an advocate for a long time just like former players bashar, sujon etc have been a supporter of ashraful.

Unfortunately in Bangladesh there is a culture of who you know rather than what you know.

Whether Siddons was the causative factor, we can't say for sure. The 58 and 78 weere bad performances, with bad being an understatement. That being said, I thought our players had an attitude problem, no-one attempted to build partnerships, there was a general air of apathy and resignation-after tamim got out and a couple of quick wickets fell, they seemed to be resigned to their loss and did not know what to do. You can blame the coach or the players. But I think the selectors must take blame for picking such a monotonous and limited squad with a wasted player in ashraful.

I have serious doubts about our players' commitment to the team and country, a few can't be questioned but there are some. But again I can't say this for sure just based on the shots and attitude seen on tv. They should share a significant proportion of the blame. But in setting out the judgement we have to be realistic-are we as good as we claim to be? The answer is no, which is why we'd been number 9 for so long, only recently have we even threatened the number 8. So a lack of ability has to contribute as well. Our good players average 30s and 20s, which leaves a lot to be desired. Furthermore many of our decisions I believe were affected by media pressure, such as batting first against the west indies-this is really a byproduct of people claiming to understand cricket who really do not-to attribute a result to the toss is quite stupid to say the least and it onyl makes sense to chase in bngladesh where the dew factor is so massive-I was particularly disappointed by Bashar's blind "win toss and bat" attitude.

It appears from the discussion, every decision in bangladesh cricket was controlled by Siddons. If there is to be a shake up and Siddons must go then so should the obsolete selection panel, and members of BCB. As I reiterate here, many people don't understand the role of a coach, they are driven by speculation rather than information. Our infrastructure is poor, player development is poor, facilities for children are poor and our selectors may not be the brightest sparks. Siddons can't be responsible for all this, everyone wants a witch hunt but it is not always justifiable.

Even after australia's ashes debacle they did not make drastic changes, they then won the CB series against england 6-1 without a few key players. We as fans have a frenzied approach to cricket as do our admin and selectors.

regarding whether there are better teachers out there-is ther may be-are they willing to coach BD? probably not, they've seen the way we treat our coaches, they know that the coaches are automatic scapegoats and there is always the likelihood of stoning however small and whether with pebbles or large stones. At the end of the day, our attitude combined with false media representations has not made BD very endearing to foreign coaches.

Heads may roll, however if we want a revolution we can't take a french revolution type of path with regular guillotine use and a reign of terror. If cronyism must be destroyed from the side of Tamim as is claimed by some then so should it be on the side of any other player esp ashraful. As fans we should not allowed to be be too judgemental and as I've said before it's the players who should judge as they know how good they really are. If it's only one player and the other 14 are against then there is a case, however if everyone supports the coach you have to have a rethink. Whether it is cronyism or not is pure speculation. Let's watch and wait.

This is a Top quality post. A very needed one at this time !!

[Raynman]

I don't think anyone is excusing the selectors either. All of them (Selectors, Head Coach, Captain) have to take responsibiilty for the team selection. However, it has been said that once the XV is selected the playing XI is Siddons' choice. Only after the loss to ZIM last December did that ownership get transferred to Shakib. If the players are not right, if the players are developing a clique in the team then the head coach has an obligation to address it. Either behind closed doors or by reporting to the Selectors and the board.

IND knows they have a weak bowling attack so they have padded the team with batsment set totals and chase that are within their bowling capability. SA and ENG don't have much of a tail but their bowling line up is pretty strong. We on the other hand have bits and pieces all rounders like Naeem, Riyad and Ashraful who are neither threatening with the bat nor ball. In many cases during the Siddons era, all 3 have played in the same XI.

Zunaed and Mushfiq were never in danger of their spot despite never having a consistant run in the last 3+ years.

At the end of the day I feel IRE 2011 is much better than IRE 2007 and NED 2011 is much better than NED 2007 compared to BD 2011 vs. BD 2007. We have a lot of changes to make which includes the board, the selectors, domestic cricket, expectations etc. And one of them is also the head coach.

Some of those changes are not a quick fix and require more intervention than just those at power in BCB. Others are doable and should be done.

[BanCricFan]

Originally Posted by mar umpire
I.

It appears from the discussion, every decision in bangladesh cricket was controlled by Siddons. If there is to be a shake up and Siddons must go then so should the obsolete selection panel, and members of BCB. As I reiterate here, many people don't understand the role of a coach, they are driven by speculation rather than information. Our infrastructure is poor, player development is poor, facilities for children are poor and our selectors may not be the brightest sparks. Siddons can't be responsible for all this, everyone wants a witch hunt but it is not always justifiable.

One of the very rare voices of reason. Top post.

We HAVE to get out of this excuse/blame or scapegoats culture -not tomorrow but NOW. Enough is enough!

Take NCL for example, I cant believe Sylhet didn't have there own playing ground for the last four years or so. That means Sylhet -one of the most popular places for the game- were deprived of hosting FC cricket for such a long time. How does this effect the development there? Then, we have sub-standard pitches, dearth of qualified coaches and TOTALLY incompetent umpires officiating in these "FC" matches. On top of this, the whole NCL thing is done in such a hurry --much faster than someone looking for a bathroom after a bad curry. What is the point of organizing such an event at all...embezzlement of funds?

A few weeks ago, we learnt that a DPL match couldn't take place because of the ground not being ready as the staffs didn't know and were 'sleeping'. We tolerate bad discipline and behaviour of the players. I remember Tamim making very crude remarks about expats in his last tour to England and British Isles. Many here laughed it off as if nothing mattered. And, we have the captain busy giving the middle finger to the crowds and bad mouthing his senior cricketers. I won't even mention Lotus Kamal here. From top to bottom, we are instituitionally buggered. Thats the fact. No self-negations there. We dont need a Siddons, Whatmore, Akram or a Bradman; we need a miracle.

[deshprem]

Originally Posted by BanCricFan
From top to bottom, we are instituitionally buggered. Thats the fact. No self-negations there. We dont need a Siddons, Whatmore, Akram or a Bradman; we need a miracle.

can everyone please get that through their heads.

[One World]

Too much generalization. Did Whatmore do a miracle then? Then I would love to have such a magician.

[mar umpire]

Whatmore wasn't a magician-his public declaration after the world cup that he wanted to coach India left me with the impression he was self absorbed, and was using BD merely as a platform for greater opportunities-professionalism is one thing in searching for a better deal but this was about as unprofessional as it got. Other than the 2007 world cup where a few guys performed to perhaps give us our best world cup, he didn't have much else to write about. Our team has gone through ups and downs too often without a consistent series other than the one against NZ and West Indies(I will mention west indies despite it being a weakened side, many players still play for the current team and it was also an overseas tour).

Under Whatmore it was usually ashraful or bust, you can only cover the cracks with paper for so long, eventually your weaknesses will show up-so a few flashes in the pan under whatmore does not equate to a miracle. I think over the last 4 years, we have been troubling more teams than ever before consistently which is a step in the right direction-under whatmore it was an oscillation not an ascension. That being said, the 58 and 78 are glaring abominations.

If we want the team to perform consitently we'll need a good bowling attack-that means a strike bowler at least-currently Shafiul and Rubel although for their experience and age are doing well, are not the strike bowlers that consistently make an early breakthrough-in this world cup we have relied on razzak, a run out and mahmudullah-when you have your spinners coming in with the new ball to make a breakthrough or later on when already the partnership has laid a platform then your spinners will struggle. Hence the argument that Benn and Peterson are better spinners doesn't really catch my attention-certainly they have more variation than our spinners but we can only compare them when they play similar roles for their teams. It is unfortunate we relied on our spinners this world cup as strike bowlers.

Mortaza is the closest thing we have had to a strike bowler. He was involved with the MRF pace foundation. We need to develop our new ball bowling to be successful-reverse swing is good but relying on that will force you to play catch up in the game.

Our batsmen, when they play, play some of the best innings to watch, lots of strokes. However how many of our batsmen know how to build an innings? I've seen Imrul do it, I personally think Mahmudullah has the ability but lacks confidence. This will take time and exposure at the highest level-NCL won't allow them to deelop their skills to such a level.

Our selection relies too much on past glory, we are too emotional and retrospective rather than selecting on form-I'm not sure our players know by what criteria our selectors choose teams. It's good to have a core but at the same time you can't make selections based on what a player did 4 years ago-when was the last time ashraful scored a 100 against a top 8 team? Even tamim for that matter(in ODIs) who is considered our best batsman.

Our openers and top order don't know how to grind their way to an innings, when the going's tough they fold up and pack up shop, throw their wicket. In the end we have shakib coming in at 4 for not many. He can't really trust his partners to support him and he plays his shots, sometimes irresponsibly-the result being the 58 and 78 we've seen. We have to learn to play ugly, not for the fans, television or media accolades.

There are many more points to raise but I'm afraid I don't and perhaps the others on the forum don't have the time. But our problems are all arising from early on in development.

[One World]

I think Whatmore is a magician, our bad luck we did not have enough of Ash and Mash in 2007, if that was who knows how far it could go. If at least half the team was world class he could do miracle I believe looking at what he did with such limited resource. I do not care much about other tourneys and series as long as outstanding performance in WC which matters most.

Srilanka was nothing before he coached them.

[mar umpire]

Continuing on from my previous post, such instability leads to a dilemma for the coach-does he choose guys who can score consistent 20s or guys who ar emore dynamic and score a rapid 50 on one day and maybe a zero the other-with our batting line up and the players' failures such freedom to select players who can on their day be match winners was perhaps inhibited. Dealing with such players in itself was akin to dealing with limited resources.

If WC performance is the criteria by which one judges success and progression of cricket in a nation then Siddons and Whatmore wouldn't be that far apart, with whatmore marginally higher, but again staistically we are speaking of n=1 and a one off world cup in my opinion isn't the best criteria. Overseas wins, scores over 200, individual player development are what I look for in terms of how a player does. Under Whatmore I do not think any players developed, rather he was simply there when ash and mash played the way they did, and I'm not sure if there were many players vouching for him.

Sri Lanka is not bangladesh and with the advent of 20-20 the cricketing landscape has changed vastly, cricket has become much more globalised with bangladesh, zimbabwe being left out. Very few times these days we get to face to flight opposition. During sri lanka's time, sri lanka already had better cricketing infrastructure than BD did when they gained test status. their grass roots cricket was working, they'd play on beaches, they had the grounds and land area-a luxury which BD as the most densely populated country in the world does not enjoy. I would question whether the success of sri lanka can be attributed to whatmore or the emergence of greats like ranatunga and aravinda de silva-players to this day in their history are held in high esteem statistically. Even now take away 4 players from sri lanka and they'd be as bad as BD. In 6 years time I think Sri Lanka will go into a rapid decline. Unfortunately for us though sri lanka was nothing but became something but under the same coach bangladesh did not become anything which raises the question how much can what more do-you can motivate and plan, but what happens subsequently will have a strong impact on results. Our players weren't able to deliver, perhaps due to a lack of talent.

[One World]

Although I get most of your post, I am not sure about the last paragraph where you are questioning the capability of Whatmore as a coach for Srilanka. I think anybody with minimum cricketing sense will not disagree on that - but again opinion matters most when it differs most.

[Nafis 1718]

ato beshi kotha bolar dorkar ki..

[mar umpire]

Originally Posted by One World
Although I get most of your post, I am not sure about the last paragraph where you are questioning the capability of Whatmore as a coach for Srilanka. I think anybody with minimum cricketing sense will not disagree on that - but again opinion matters most when it differs most.

I think I have more playing cricketing experience than perhaps many people here-your one eyed standing for whatmore may be colouring your vision. I have different opinions to others but at no stage have I alluded to their not having a "minimum cricketing sense".

People who have played representative cricket however minor know the structure of a team and its relationship with a coach-obviously you are having trouble accepting the fact Tamim wants Siddons more than he wants Whatmore. Siddons isn't the best, but whatmore was worse, Tamim has played under both. It is an exceptionally simplistic view to think what happened with sri lankan cricket was mainly the product of whatmore's coaching. Coaches are given more blame and in some instances such as here, more credit than they deserve.

Here's hoping to see whatmore appear on Harry Potter and the Deathly hallows as a magician.

You keep your opinion and I'll keep mine. I don't think there will be any healthy discussion between you or I.

[mar umpire]

Originally Posted by Nafis 1718
ato beshi kotha bolar dorkar ki..

If that was in reference to my post, sorry to have disturbed you

[One World]

Originally Posted by mar umpire
I think I have more playing cricketing experience than perhaps many people here-your one eyed standing for whatmore may be colouring your vision. I have different opinions to others but at no stage have I alluded to their not having a "minimum cricketing sense".

People who have played representative cricket however minor know the structure of a team and its relationship with a coach-obviously you are having trouble accepting the fact Tamim wants Siddons more than he wants Whatmore. Siddons isn't the best, but whatmore was worse, Tamim has played under both. It is an exceptionally simplistic view to think what happened with sri lankan cricket was mainly the product of whatmore's coaching. Coaches are given more blame and in some instances such as here, more credit than they deserve.

Here's hoping to see whatmore appear on Harry Potter and the Deathly hallows as a magician.

You keep your opinion and I'll keep mine. I don't think there will be any healthy discussion between you or I.

I never said Whatmore is the ultimate Messiah for any cricketing nation while you are attempting to establish logic against my posts forcing in that I am claiming such. When you wear a certain pair of glasses and insist the world to look through it nothing healthy is possible. You get a +1 for that, for everything else I stand correct.

[M.H.Rubel]

So its clear that Tamim can clearly understand that Siddons is a good teacher but not a good planner.So Siddons is an one eyed man.Now Tamim need to understand that there is no role of an one eyed man in modern day cricket.You got to be two eyed with with full power to win high voltage matches.

Posted via BC Mobile Edition

[mar umpire]

Who stands correct or wrong can only be judged in hindsight, it appears though that neither of us will be able to claim anything as both coaches we are supporting are unlikely to be coaching BD.

When I say things I never mean to be condescending or insulting, whatever I add to my post I try to do so to give my posts and analysis more credibility. I'm sorry if I have insulted anyone

Whatmore as Tamim said is a strategist-as such I do not think he is what we want for a developing team like BD. As far as I see whatmore didn't do much for our development. The centuries we were scoring as individuals were mainly by one or two players-under siddons we saw many players come through, among them some unexpected ones like mahmudullah.

Whatmore was the coach of the winning sri lanka team which had the likes of murali, ranatunga, jayasuryia, aravinda de silva and vaas I believe as well. All greats of the game. They may not have been as good then but good enough to string together a few good performances to win the cup. We have 2 decent players. Whatmore deserves credit, but he isn't a magician-that was what I was arguing. But you claim now that you are not claiming him as what you mentioned-there may have been a misunderstanding. I was a huge supporter of whatmore but on further analysis my viewpoint changed.

I want the best for bangladesh as much as you do or anyone else does.

As for my comment on whatmore, I think he would make a rather good Mr Dursley in Harry Potter.

[auntu]

If the players are comfortable with the coach then BCB should consider JS's extension of his contract. But I read in a Bangla daily BCB is looking for a coach from the Sub-Continent with a Ex BD national player as a assistant coach. This is quiet a concern for the betterment of the team as our experience with Sub-Continent coach is not good.

Or is he going to be Sourav Ganguly? What do you think? I think he will be a fantastic coach for the Tigers with Salahuddin (He can be the spin bowling coach)/Aminul Islam as the assistant coach and Ian Pont and Julian Fountain as the specialist bowling and fielding coach .

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by auntu
Or is he going to be Sourav Ganguly? What do you think? I think he will be a fantastic coach for the Tigers with Salahuddin (He can be the spin bowling coach)/Aminul Islam as the assistant coach and Ian Pont and Julian Fountain as the specialist bowling and fielding coach .

SauGan is an excellent idea for a variety of reasons:

1. He speaks Bangla and hence no communication gap.

2. He won't take any BS from the BSers and alga matobbors running our Board.

3. He is extremely proactive and takes immense pride in his work, never any excuses from him.

[BlindSupporterofBD]

Tamim is 100% right about his comments. Definitely the team has improved a lot under JS. He should not go at the moment. His exit will take a BD cricket a step back. Please don't let him go.

[BlindSupporterofBD]

Originally Posted by simon
I've been neutral abt Siddons that's why in the other thread with poll I couldn't select "Pro-Siddons" or "Anti- Siddons".
As TI said it & he said it on behalf of the whole team I think it's better to keep Jamie.
The reason we collapsed in those 2 matches was because of the pressure from expectation,nothing else. Otherwise when was the last time we got all out even below 150.
Offcourse the players know better than we fans or even the BCB know.

See how west Indies is collapsing in Mirpur pitch,,,(71/8). Pitch is itself to blame as well. Not only BD team collapsing,,,

[crickwizard]

JS was coach for over 4 years, time to go, as simple as it is whether like it or not. Hardly there is coach in test playing nation who stayed more that that. Just get a new brain as head coach and keep Ian Pont and Julian.
Tamim getting dumber everyday my making too much comments these days. Twice bowled by good lenght ball is not a good sign. He may be trying to simulate Schewag, unfortunately Tamim is nowhere close yet. Accomplish first then talk later, don’t do the other way around. BD celebrities have serious issue with fame management in every aspects.

[nahaz]

I'm gonna be a smart arse here :

Originally Posted by nura43
Please have a read of TIK's column in Daily Sun. Your opinion is highly appreciated.


21 March, 2011

Tamim Iqbal’s Column

Jamie should stay

The World Cup is over for us. As expected, we have won three matches. But things would have been beautiful had we not been all out at 58 and 78 against West Indies and South Africa respectively.

It’s natural that right after the World Cup I should write about the experience I had during the tournament, but I guess it will be better to write about what bad can be happening rather what has already happened.

Bangladesh head coach Jamie Siddons might not be seen with us after the upcoming Australia series in Dhaka, which I think should not be happening for the betterment of the team.

The main reason for which he should be staying is, he has been working with us for the last four years, resulting in the improvements the team had shown of late. You ask any general public or any one related to cricket and I am sure that they will be saying that there has been some improvement in the team.
Tamim, you would expect any team to improve in four years, and any player playing in a team over a year should also improve, as otherwise he should eventually be kicked out of the team.

Many batsmen in the team now have a better average and they have learnt to build bigger partnerships, there has been improvement in the way of playing test matches. The way he has prepared us in the last four years, I think it wouldn’t have been possible for any one else.


I feel that there are two types of coaches. First, there are coaches who plan well and second, there are coaches who teach well. For a team like Bangladesh, a teacher like Jamie is needed rather than a planner. I find him to be a good teacher. Whatever improvement I have shown recently is because of Jamie and Salauddin sir, who is now utilising his talent for some other country which is sad for our cricket.

I think a student needs to trust his teacher or else there will be no improvement. Today whatever improvement you see in me is because I trusted my teacher. Whatever improvement you will find in Mushfiqur (Rahim), Roquibul (Hassan), Imrul (Kayes) is because they had trusted their teacher. Jamie is the reason for Shakib’s being the number one ODI all-rounder.

I can challenge that there will not be a single person who can show that the performance graph of any of the player in the current team has fallen in the last four years. Everyone was tensed with the pacers but amazingly if you ask Shafiul (Islam) you will get to know that Jamie was the one who taught him how to bowl out-swingers.

Though these matters are only to be considered by Bangladesh Cricket Board, still what I feel is that Jamie’s contract should be renewed. Or else, the team will face a problem to build up the bridge with the new coach. The coach will need to understand us, need to know what we are and how we each play which I think will be taking at least two years to happen. Jamie has already overcome that period and now he understands every single move of ours which is a very good thing for the team and now is the time to implement his plans.

There is a saying that Jamie has always overlooked the senior players which I think is a totally wrong conception. People say that he has a problem with Mashrafe (Bin Mortaza) which is not right. I have been in the team since Mashrafe was like any other member of the team and has always seen both of them having a very close and good relation even when Mashrafe was handed over the charge of leading the team. Jamie has always been supporting him and he still does.

If we omit two results for the six matches that we played in the World Cup, then I think the result could have been wonderful and none could have possibly said that we performed badly in the tournament.

And if we omit the result of that match against England, this World Cup would be worse than our 1999 World Cup. We almost did not win against England. (Credit where its due: we are much better at closing out matches now).

Getting a new coach will slow down the momentum as the new one will have to start from zero.
A new coach will infuse new ideas to the players. If the players are responsive, there will always be a chance to learn something new. Jamie has taught for four years. Do you not think the rate of learning will now be much less under him? There are significant things you guys have not picked up from Jamie that I do not think you will learn in a 5th year if you have not learnt from him in the first four.

What I have written today is what I feel about the team but this doesn’t mean that I am going against BCB as I will never do so. Not only as a vice captain but also as a member of the team, I know what 99% of the players want - they want Jamie to stay. It doesn’t really matter how good a teacher is, as a student will never improve if he or she doesn’t have a good bonding and understanding with the teacher.

You guys are professional. So you should always be ready to work with whoever is there to coach you. It is good that you had a good understanding with Jamie. I think your closeness stems from the fact that he gave you free rein to play as you wished regardless of the situation. It is a shame he did not teach you how to build your innings on a base before you went on the attack. You seem to be very uncomfortable if you ever tried to build up an innings first. The free rein is like a lottery. Jamie should have forced you, and your middle order to be more methodical.

There is a chance Ian Pont might be your new head coach. You should be able to gel with him very easily. As long as the coach does not try to grab the limelight, you would be fine.

© 2010 The Daily Sun

http://www.daily-sun.com/mob/index.p...e_id=1&index=1

Jamie has taken us to another skill level. However in performing as a team to produce a result, he has not delivered after improving the individuals to a bare minimum needed to compete in the international stage.

Him tending to stick with certain individuals is another questionnable legacy from his era. Individuals such as Mushfique and Rakib tended to improve very little with him tending to indirectly send the message that they are good enough as is.

I do think however that the board should make a great effort in making sure he does not leave with a bitter or empty feeling. How we treat him in his last days may affect what kind of coaches are interested inus in the future. Also, his contacts, as well as Pont's, in world cricket should be utilised in providing player trainings.

He is also a good technical batting coach. He may be a good consultant in future for many years to come. Much better than Saurav Ganguly, Lance Klusener, Wasim Akram type coaches.

[Tdot_Tiger]

Everyone has their opinions but really none of us are experts, unless you've played some high level cricket.

Lets focus on what is pretty apparent Tamim has a big mouth, the fame has got to him. Since he is a celebrity there is no pressure for him to strive to be better. His ducksss (yes plural!) are inexcusable. Before his wrist surgery, having him bat meant we would atleast get to 50-60/0. Now, with his lack of fitness it mean 0/1. I mean isn't there any pressure for these guys to get fit??? I think he should be sent to the A team just to show how serious we are. The main issue is we don't have enough replacements, but I think the recent form ok Kapali and Shuvagoto Hom (I may have mispelled) is encouraging.

In terms of coaching, things look OK but we desperately need a batting coach. My colleague has played at the University level with Ganguly and has said that he is a fine batsmen with finesse. We need somebody like that. We really do need to keep Pont and Fontaine, they should be given a chance. The problem with Siddons is that he has favourites and I think this allows the players to relax and believe they have a spot on the starting 11, whether they perform or not. We need to be careful with the Siddons situation, keep him may be for a short while but please hire Ganguly!!!

[Raynman]

If I were Tamim, I would ask for Siddons to be retained to. Why?

1. The coach publicly says that the team has no chance of winning if I don't perform (even though I didn't even play in the famour NZ series that we won 4-0)

2. I have the license to play however I want, whenever I want

3. I am now the vice captain of the squad without ever having demonstrated any leadership skills, on the field or through a meaningful match winning performance

4. I was injured during a series that produced the biggest result for us and my replacement who did fairly well wasn't even allowed in the 14 man squad for the next series against Zimbabwe

5. I can talk about 100 run partnerships and being the top scorer in each match and no one can say anything if I don't follow through.

6. Of all the players since 2007, I am the only one the coach can point to as having made signficant personal progress.

[sheikh]

1. Siddons should be offered the position of Academy Batting Consuntant.
2. Players should learn when & what to say.

Posted via BC Mobile Edition

[BanCricFan]

Originally Posted by mar umpire
. I was a huge supporter of whatmore but on further analysis my viewpoint changed.

Sincere and intelligent people change their mind and opinions in light of new information, understanding and facts. Only fools hold on to their stubborn opinions despite the glaring contrary facts staring right at them. They can never admit to getting things wrong...even, occassionally.