15th August, The Blackest Day in our Independent History

[billah]

Originally Posted by BD-Shardul
The fact is that independence of Bangladesh was not in the mind of Sheikh Mujib. He uttered that phrase in the course of his speech. After the election in 1970, all he and his party were fighting for was to get into power. Had the West PAK had given power to him, we don't know what would have happened after that. But thanks God, that didn't happen. And we got our beloved Bangladesh.

Baghro miah:

Here's a couple of interesting piece of info you might enjoy.

Mujib was a leader with his eyes set well into the future. As early as 1953, as a student leader, Mujib said Pakistan should give more autonomy to it's provinces. It should be a loose federation, like some of the western countries. I think if the pakis had paid attention, they would have been in a better shape today, regardless of losing Bangladesh.

Also, to the very end, Mujib hoped for power sharing deals, not for a complete separation. Awamis always refer to his 7th March speech as a clear message for independence. Well, Mujib always wanted to be the leader of all of Pakistan. He had an ego fight with the pakis. He had very high level of self-respect and respect for his people. His messages were broad and inclusive. He finished his 7th March speech with "Joy Bangla, Joy Pakistan". Awamis always forget to play the last portion of that recording. I think it should be played as a praise to Mujib's sense of tolerance, as an example of his patience and greatness.

[al Furqaan]

still, even after all his bad deeds, he still have a lot of countribution in our indipendence. we should remember that on this black day, and should not make arguments agaisnt it or show disrespect to him. (then again, if someone does, don't blame that person, blame his daughter and his party people for that).

i am amazed at the infinite veracity of this statement, rubu bhai. take a friggin bow!!!

this sums up everything. we can debate ad naseum about anything: religion, politics, obama, mccain. but this is the best summation of what we need to concentrate rather debate ad infinitum. this was superb. this is like clean bowling tendulkar, dravid, ponting, and lara all in one delivery.

[HereWeGo]

I would just request everyone atleast not to disrespect the great leader. We was not a perfect man but he was a great man. He had his mistakes but that is nothing compared to his achievments. He wasnt the best ruler and some of his decisions were flawed yet he was by far the only ruler of bangladesh post indepedence who can truly claim to sacrifice his life for his country.

Bangladesh suffered its darkest day post independence not because of Mujib but because of the total destrusction caused by some of your beloved pakistan and lack of support from the superpower and now a second home for alot of you guys, the one and only, true example of democracy, America...

The rakhi bahini u are talking abt are the people who also fought for independence. Bongobir Kader siddiqui was known for killing Biharis post independence. There were some bad apples but they all werent goons. They took it on themselves to take care of the law and order situation. They were the RAB's of 1972. I personally don support extra judicial killings but a recent poll shows 63 % of the people support them...

[Banglatiger84]

Originally Posted by HereWeGo
I would just request everyone atleast not to disrespect the great leader. We was not a perfect man but he was a great man. He had his mistakes but that is nothing compared to his achievments. He wasnt the best ruler and some of his decisions were flawed yet he was by far the only ruler of bangladesh post indepedence who can truly claim to sacrifice his life for his country.

Bangladesh suffered its darkest day post independence not because of Mujib but because of the total destrusction caused by some of your beloved pakistan and lack of support from the superpower and now a second home for alot of you guys, the one and only, true example of democracy, America...

The rakhi bahini u are talking abt are the people who also fought for independence. Bongobir Kader siddiqui was known for killing Biharis post independence. There were some bad apples but they all werent goons. They took it on themselves to take care of the law and order situation. They were the RAB's of 1972. I personally don support extra judicial killings but a recent poll shows 63 % of the people support them...

Shaikh Mujeeb was a great leader, no doubt , and he had his faults, but that doesnt detract from his achievements.

Not every Bengali supported Kader Siddiqui in his killings, after 1971, there was this belief that one could kill Biharis as they were all to blame for betraying us, however it was a very wrong belief.

A lot of destruction was caused by Pakistan, but AL members who abused the situation are to blame, and its pointless to blame Pakistan for crimes of Shaikh Mujeeb's near and dear ones. There are Bangladeshis who still claim that Bangladesh is poor because of Pakistan , even though we have been independent for almost 37 years.

Another point, its very annoying to see Bangladeshis form cliques of "AL/Pro-Independence/Mujeeb Supporter/anti-Pakistani" and "BNP/anti-independence/Zia supporter/Pakistan Chamcha".

Just because someone doesnt say "I hate Pakistan" in every other sentence, he becomes someone who loves Pakistan. Alternatively. if someone doesnt believe that India is out to invade us, he is a RAW Agent !

[Razi]

Hey guys I would like to say one thing to everyone that if you don't respect others then you also won't get respect from others. If you can't respect people atleast don't try to disrespect them for God sake. How can we being a Bangladeshi disrespect our father of the nation? A man for whom we can proudly say that we are Bangladeshi or else who knows we still may have been finding us under those evil Pakistani's all the way. Every human in this world has his/her own faults but that doesn't makes their achievement small by any means.I am not saying that its only for Bangabandhu that we are independent but I must say without him it also would have not been possible for us to achieve this glory.

[Banglatiger84]

I personally consider him the father of our nation, however I also feel we have to look at the point of views of those who have suffered under him/his allies.

There are people who dislike Shaikh Mujeeb (maybe they are unjustified) and say "In 1970 we were being oppressed by Pakistanis, in 1974 we were being screwed by Shaikh Mujeeb's sons or Rakkhi Bahini members" . So how can you expect such people to have a rosy picture of Shaikh Mujeeb, with all blame lying on the "evil Pakistanis"

Yes, independence was important for us. However, you have to put yourself in shoes of victim and realize that just because someone is being robbed/beaten/ abused by a fellow Bangladeshi in an independent Bangladesh, it doesnt make the robbery or abuse feel any better.

The victim of Rakkhi Bahini will never say "I didnt feel that bad, at least I wasnt getting beaten up by evil Pakistanis"

[Zunaid]

OK.

The pro-anti "discussion" (used loosely) has now squarely landed into he zone of personal and ad hominem attacks.

As admin, I am strongly urging everyone to take a deep breath and resume a civil discourse.

[HereWeGo]

Originally Posted by Banglatiger84
Shaikh Mujeeb was a great leader, no doubt , and he had his faults, but that doesnt detract from his achievements.

Not every Bengali supported Kader Siddiqui in his killings, after 1971, there was this belief that one could kill Biharis as they were all to blame for betraying us, however it was a very wrong belief.

A lot of destruction was caused by Pakistan, but AL members who abused the situation are to blame, and its pointless to blame Pakistan for crimes of Shaikh Mujeeb's near and dear ones. There are Bangladeshis who still claim that Bangladesh is poor because of Pakistan , even though we have been independent for almost 37 years.

Another point, its very annoying to see Bangladeshis form cliques of "AL/Pro-Independence/Mujeeb Supporter/anti-Pakistani" and "BNP/anti-independence/Zia supporter/Pakistan Chamcha".

Just because someone doesnt say "I hate Pakistan" in every other sentence, he becomes someone who loves Pakistan. Alternatively. if someone doesnt believe that India is out to invade us, he is a RAW Agent !

I am not blaming Pakistan for the crimes comitted by some of Sheikh mujibs men, I am blaming Pakistan for totally destroying Bangladeshs infustructure and also killing some of greatest intellectuals this country has produced.

Hate is a bad thing, I am not asking people to hate Pakistan, but please don carry Pakistani flag in Bangabandhu stadium during cricket match.

[Zunaid]

I have purposefully removed some recent exchange of posts that I feel violates BC norms. My polite urgings to maintain a civil discourse apparently has had not effect. Futher violations will be appropriately dealt with.

- Zunaid as admin

[Nocturnal]

Originally Posted by antora93
Yes, when i heard about this i found it extremely sad, and it's even more sad how his "killers" are still out and running ( well some of them).

He was indeed a great leader. My Dad was telling me how he met Bangabandhu with my Dadu moni, who at the time was the president of the " mohila aumi league" thingy for Commilla. I found it kinda awkward when he called Bangabandhu "handsome" lol.

I also find it very weird how today it's Kaleda Zia's B'day, I mean how sad can you get?

pathetic and very sad indeed
here is a clue for you:

Khaleda Zia's dates of birth: Khaleda Zia is an extra ordinary women because she has five official dates of birth.
1. 5 August, 1944 (Marriage certificate)
2. 5 Sept, 1946 (transcript submitted to SAARC Secretariat)
3. 19 August, 1947 (record of prime ministerial oath)
4. 15 August 1947 (press secretary)
5. 15 August, 1946 (application form, electoral candidacy)

source-http://muktadhara.net/khaledazia.htm

[shaad]

I am by no means the oldest member of Banglacricket, but I am older than my country. I don't have any axe to grind, loathing both BNP and AL equally, and I hope my memories as someone who lived through that period might help explain why I might have a different take on this matter. So let me begin by saying that I am sorry, Rabz, but I certainly don't see August 15th as the blackest day of our independent history. Instead, I remember very well how the mosques were filled with people, happy people, people doing nafal namaz in gratitude when the news came out about Mujib's assassination.

There are much darker periods in our independent history, Rabz, e.g. the period when all other parties were outlawed, or when over a million people died in the 1974 famine. Or do you consider the death of a man and his family to somehow overshadow the death of a million souls? For that matter, why should Mujib's death be mourned any more than the deaths of others that he ordered? Are you, for instance, not familiar with Siraj Sikder's interrogation and death, followed by Mujib's crowing, "Where is Siraj Sikder?" the following day at Parliament?

Now I don't think that anyone is denying the role of other factors in the severity of the 1974 famine. But suggesting that corruption under the Mujib regime was not at least partly responsible would be laughable. I remember how we were mobbed by crowds on the occasions that my family tried to distribute some free food. I also remember my first taste of chicken salad -- it was from a can, a can that I had naively bought at the D.I.T. 1 Market, a can that had RELIEF stamped on it. I didn't know what the word meant then, but now I do: that can, like many others, had been sent by other nations to be delivered free to our starving masses, yet they ended up being sold in the stores. I presume you are familiar with the case of Gazi Golam Mostofa, a close confidant of the Mujib family, who was rather well known as "kombol chor" for his misappropriation of relief goods from the Red Cross.

Not that the corruption and nepotism stopped there -- are you unfamiliar with how Sheikh Naser, his brother, or Sheikh Moni, Abul Hasnat, and Sheikh Shahidul Islam, his nephews, or Sheikh Moni, his son, amassed fortunes?

I am sorry, but I can't mourn the death of an autocrat who banned all other political parties, who cancelled all newspapers except four, whose personal militia, the Rakkhi Bahini, kept the populace terrified by taking away people to torture and kill at his command, and whose sons basically had carte blanche to rape and loot at will. And if people were dissatisfied with this state of affairs, what could they do? Depose Mujib by bringing another political party to power in the elections? The one-party BAKSAL rule had already put paid to that idea. Coups and assassinations are grisly affairs indeed, but given that he couldn't be removed from power by democratic means, what other alternative was there?

Let's be frank, Mujib was charismatic, had the gift of rhetoric, and was a shrewd campaigner. Every struggle requires a figurehead, preferably one with the gift of the gab, one who can inspire people for that struggle. The British, for instance, had Winston Churchill, while the Germans had Adolf Hitler. We, in 1971, and in the days leading to it, had Mujib. But the qualities that served him in this role did not translate to those required for governing a nation. A man who could and should have been revered for his contribution to our independence allowed his ego and venality to reduce him to such a state that most of the nation were eager to see him go.

I realize, Rabz, that circumstances are different for you and your peers who might not have necessarily lived through this period. You might consider our memories or experiences to be exaggerated. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing; despite the old adage of those who forget history being doomed to repeat it, I think we older Bangladeshis tend to dwell on our history and our old scores a little too much, instead of looking forward to and planning for the future.

[HereWeGo]

Originally Posted by shaad
I am by no means the oldest member of Banglacricket, but I am older than my country. I don't have any axe to grind, loathing both BNP and AL equally, and I hope my memories as someone who lived through that period might help explain why I might have a different take on this matter. So let me begin by saying that I am sorry, Rabz, but I certainly don't see August 15th as the blackest day of our independent history. Instead, I remember very well how the mosques were filled with people, happy people, people doing nafal namaz in gratitude when the news came out about Mujib's assassination.

There are much darker periods in our independent history, Rabz, e.g. the period when all other parties were outlawed, or when over a million people died in the 1974 famine. Or do you consider the death of a man and his family to somehow overshadow the death of a million souls? For that matter, why should Mujib's death be mourned any more than the deaths of others that he ordered? Are you, for instance, not familiar with Siraj Sikder's interrogation and death, followed by Mujib's crowing, "Where is Siraj Sikder?" the following day at Parliament?

Now I don't think that anyone is denying the role of other factors in the severity of the 1974 famine. But suggesting that corruption under the Mujib regime was not at least partly responsible would be laughable. I remember how we were mobbed by crowds on the occasions that my family tried to distribute some free food. I also remember my first taste of chicken salad -- it was from a can, a can that I had naively bought at the D.I.T. 1 Market, a can that had RELIEF stamped on it. I didn't know what the word meant then, but now I do: that can, like many others, had been sent by other nations to be delivered free to our starving masses, yet they ended up being sold in the stores. I presume you are familiar with the case of Gazi Golam Mostofa, a close confidant of the Mujib family, who was rather well known as "kombol chor" for his misappropriation of relief goods from the Red Cross.

Not that the corruption and nepotism stopped there -- are you unfamiliar with how Sheikh Naser, his brother, or Sheikh Moni, Abul Hasnat, and Sheikh Shahidul Islam, his nephews, or Sheikh Moni, his son, amassed fortunes?

I am sorry, but I can't mourn the death of an autocrat who banned all other political parties, who cancelled all newspapers except four, whose personal militia, the Rakkhi Bahini, kept the populace terrified by taking away people to torture and kill at his command, and whose sons basically had carte blanche to rape and loot at will. And if people were dissatisfied with this state of affairs, what could they do? Depose Mujib by bringing another political party to power in the elections? The one-party BAKSAL rule had already put paid to that idea. Coups and assassinations are grisly affairs indeed, but given that he couldn't be removed from power by democratic means, what other alternative was there?

Let's be frank, Mujib was charismatic, had the gift of rhetoric, and was a shrewd campaigner. Every struggle requires a figurehead, preferably one with the gift of the gab, one who can inspire people for that struggle. The British, for instance, had Winston Churchill, while the Germans had Adolf Hitler. We, in 1971, and in the days leading to it, had Mujib. But the qualities that served him in this role did not translate to those required for governing a nation. A man who could and should have been revered for his contribution to our independence allowed his ego and venality to reduce him to such a state that most of the nation were eager to see him go.

I realize, Rabz, that circumstances are different for you and your peers who might not have necessarily lived through this period. You might consider our memories or experiences to be exaggerated. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing; despite the old adage of those who forget history being doomed to repeat it, I think we older Bangladeshis tend to dwell on our history and our old scores a little too much, instead of looking forward to and planning for the future.

Comparing Mujib with Adolf Hitler was uncalled for although i understand that u werent referring to the mass murderer Hitler.

While u are referring to his son as rapist and looters, I highly doubt how much of it is true and how much is propaganda. While there is no smoke without fire, I understand that his son had an affair with a wife of an army officer. However I am not sure if he was responsible for raping neone. Plus History is written by winners. And when it comes to Army Vs Mujib, well we all know who the winner is.

Looting, well If I were a presidents son and I was greedy than i would definately steal money but not by robbing a bank but in other sophisticated ways (does Tarique Zia ring a bell) . Either he was too dumb or he was ......mmmm Tooo tooo Dumb

And knowing some of Muibs closest people, I can assure you that he for one loved his country more than his sons.

Well my father is an health fanatic and he always insisted in the best cooking oil. Even 5 years back I saw my father buying expensiv foreign cooking oil with clear marking that says that it was for relief purposes only. While I have reasons to be pissed at Hasina and Khaleda but i highly doubt if they had nething to do with the open sale of relief materials at Dhaka new market....

Neways few days back Falu was arrested and charges pressed against him was for stealing relief materials. Would u blame K.Zia for that?

Now comes the Rakhi Bahini. The men u are talking abt are mostly if not all, are Freedom Fighters themselves. They were witneses to one of the most horrific mass murder in the history of Civilisation. They had their own Grudges. These people did commit murders and sometimes of innocent civilians just for being bihari. While I do not support extra judicial killings but they are the RAB's of 1972. The last time I checked people in Bangladesh are happy with RABs. If they are than they cant blame Sheikh Muib for his Rakhi bahini either. A lot of innocent people also got killed in the hands of RAB. While RAB's are the most well trained of Army and police personnels. These Rakhi Bahini men were the most well trained Freedom fighters.

As far as the "nafal namaz" at the mosque goes ( after his death). I am sure u will find a lot of people Mourning like crazy in the mosque once "Nizami" or "Golam Azam" dies while there would be a lot of people happy at the death of "Dr Kamal" for his vocal support of Secular Bangladesh. The nafal NAmaz doesnt prove nething....

Finally comes the BAKSAL. Yes that was one Huge mistake from the part of Sheikh Mujib. Again knowing some of his close pupils I do believe that he would have eventually changed his mind if he lost all his popular support. Even Assuming he wont have changed his mind I still do not think that he deserves to be compared as a huge villain for this one act. He was our leader at the most torred time our country had to face.


Someone has already described some of the other stuffs as Famine and such. I am not gonna go into them again....

[Anher]

Thanking Shaad bhai for putting up some real story post 1971. Its make sense out of most nonsense. My father used to tell me the same story of post independence era. But i just can not support mass murder of Shekih mujib's family specially rasel. Whoever did it their shadow government went to next political power. Certainly they dont care justice and law except which their made, carry their benefits. Since then politics havent changed much only military government ended and bangladesh eventually become a lawless country for powerful thugs.

[BD-Shardul]

Great Post from Dr. Shaad.

[Beamer]

Britain of Churchill and Germany of Hitler- in a struggle? poor analogy. One oversaw the greatest empire of the last century, and the other was on his way to create one, until crushed. That was not a struggle. That was a battle of superpowers. Ours was a struggle against an occupying enemy to liberate the nation. The same way the Palestinians, Tibetans and Kashmiris continue to this day.

Many people did celebrate the killing of Bangabandhu, but many mourned it as well, and continue to do it till today, specially on the 15th Aug.

[Rabz]

Oh...i've been so busy last few days that i hardly had any time to post here.
But i was trying to follow this thread and read all your posts.
(the topic is too big to write one-liner and dissapear)

May be i was a little put off when things started to get a bit personal.
Beamer, Pundit, plz, you guys are among our senior members and prolific posters.
You two ( and most of us here) are better than that.

I have a certain perspective on Sheikh Mujib but i can certainly respect the opinions of others who stands on the other end of the spectrum. At the same time, i'm certainly learning more from Billah bhai and Shaad bhai ( who always amazes me as how he knows pretty much anything about everything).

Our very own "Shomsher Shaa" bhai.

Please carry on with the discussions.
I'll be back soon.


But before i go,

এবারের সংগ্রাম আমাদের মুক্তির সংগ্রাম
এবারের সংগ্রাম আমাদের সাধীনতার সংগ্রাম।

[billah]

HereWeGo: I wish the responses presented to Shaad here were more poignant. I just read your response and can't help but interject.

Originally Posted by HereWeGo
1. Comparing Mujib with Adolf Hitler was uncalled for although i understand that u werent referring to the mass murderer Hitler.

Mujib was a good orator, so was Hitler
Mujib could influence his people, so could Hitler.

I think that is only kind of comparison that were presented in Shaad's post.

2. While u are referring to his son as rapist and looters, I highly doubt how much of it is true and how much is propaganda. While there is no smoke without fire, I understand that his son had an affair with a wife of an army officer. However I am not sure if he was responsible for raping neone. Plus History is written by winners. And when it comes to Army Vs Mujib, well we all know who the winner is.

Looting, well If I were a presidents son and I was greedy than i would definately steal money but not by robbing a bank but in other sophisticated ways (does Tarique Zia ring a bell) . Either he was too dumb or he was ......mmmm Tooo tooo Dumb

I know people that were in the same getaway cars with Mujib Putros in some of their misdeeds. "he was too too dumb" doesn't cut it. I'm sure you know that.

3. And knowing some of Muibs closest people, I can assure you that he for one loved his country more than his sons.

So, why don't ask around about the famous fables of Mujib. For example: when he was told that his fupato bhai was stealing relief material, he said, "He is my only only Fupato bhai, and you guys are complaining about him !"

4. Well my father is an health fanatic and he always insisted in the best cooking oil. Even 5 years back I saw my father buying expensiv foreign cooking oil with clear marking that says that it was for relief purposes only. While I have reasons to be pissed at Hasina and Khaleda but i highly doubt if they had nething to do with the open sale of relief materials at Dhaka new market....

Neways few days back Falu was arrested and charges pressed against him was for stealing relief materials. Would u blame K.Zia for that?

Abso-freakin'-lutely I would, just like I would blame Mujib for the misdeeds of his Kombol-chors. Hope you heard Mujib's other famous fable, asking his own party men: "Amar Kombolta Kothai?" or, "Chatar dol Chete kheye feleche"

5. Now comes the Rakhi Bahini. The men u are talking abt are mostly if not all, are Freedom Fighters themselves. They were witneses to one of the most horrific mass murder in the history of Civilisation. They had their own Grudges. These people did commit murders and sometimes of innocent civilians just for being bihari. While I do not support extra judicial killings but they are the RAB's of 1972. The last time I checked people in Bangladesh are happy with RABs. If they are than they cant blame Sheikh Muib for his Rakhi bahini either. A lot of innocent people also got killed in the hands of RAB. While RAB's are the most well trained of Army and police personnels. These Rakhi Bahini men were the most well trained Freedom fighters.

Comparing Rakhi Bahini with RAB. Early this year, there was a procession at a Bangladesh neighborhood. One of slogans by the locals, asking the authorities to take care of the terrorist problem: "Amader dabi Mante Hobe, Cross-fire e dite hobe". I know that this Monster's Ball type rhetoric only points to reptilian barbarism that prevail in less than sophisticate situations. However, I can tell you, the Foreign serving NGOs and the intellectual community that have been on RAW payroll have intensely campaigned inside and outside the country against Bangladesh. It accomplished NOTHING to reduce the popularity of RAB in Bangladesh. India is creating it's own RAB, following our model. Can you imagine any nation, creating a force in the image of Rakhi Bahini? I'm sure you know the answer to that. This, Rakhi - RAB comparison, I am forced to say is a poor one and disconnected from the realities in the field.

6. As far as the "nafal namaz" at the mosque goes ( after his death). I am sure u will find a lot of people Mourning like crazy in the mosque once "Nizami" or "Golam Azam" dies while there would be a lot of people happy at the death of "Dr Kamal" for his vocal support of Secular Bangladesh. The nafal NAmaz doesnt prove nething....

People celebrating, offering prayers, feeling relived at the brutal murder of the father of the nation, and his entire family - is NOTHING? Common sense would dictate that this is very very significant. I suppose when you want to blow steam ANYTHING can be called NOTHING. Sorry, I can 't accept it.

7. Finally comes the BAKSAL. Yes that was one Huge mistake from the part of Sheikh Mujib. Again knowing some of his close pupils I do believe that he would have eventually changed his mind if he lost all his popular support. Even Assuming he wont have changed his mind I still do not think that he deserves to be compared as a huge villain for this one act. He was our leader at the most torred time our country had to face.

Huge mistake...oh well, he was gonna change his mind about this guys....I have to say, hereWeGo, of all your points - this one takes the cake.

Disclaimer: I have nothing personal against you. I don't remember having any direct exchanges with you in the past. However, I was hoping for responses with more substance, not just rhetoric. Hope you understand.

Shaad's post reminded me of the story "Emperor's New Cloths". At least someone has the courage to say it like it is....

[HereWeGo]

hi billah,
On your first point, I never said that Shaad meant otherwise,However Mujib doesnt deserve to be compared to hitler. There are plenty more good orators. It was just a low blow.

2) I know he wasnt too dumb ( i was being sarcastic). Thus i don believe that he would openly loot banks. Can you please mention the name of your pupil on the getaway car? I am sure your fantasy character doesnt exist.

3)Dude..Fables????? Seriously, I expect better... I mean better better. Atleast give me some proof...atleast not another mystery character.

4)Yes you can blame K.Zia. You can even press charges against her in the court of law but i assure you that she wont be punished by any court...

5)Comparing Rakhi bahini with RAB is not my analogy. It is the analogy made by plenty of human rights organisation including "Odhikar". And again these men u are fuming against were also FREEDOM FIGHTERS. They don deserve to be called goons for just a few rotten apples.


6) Dude trust me you cant win over everyones heart. As i said there would be happy people even if Dr kamal dies tomorrow. Does that make him a bad person? Neways he had his flaws but he was a great leader and a leader who did love his country more than himself and pls don deny it just for the sake of it.

7) A low blow aimed at me.... As i said it was his mistake and it is just my belief that without popular support he could have changed his mind. Now i can be wrong but it doesnt give u the right to make fun of me. I am sure u will feel insulted if i mock your religious belief no matter how much disclaimer i use. Please refrain from such behavior...

[BD-Shardul]

Originally Posted by HereWeGo
6. As far as the "nafal namaz" at the mosque goes ( after his death). I am sure u will find a lot of people Mourning like crazy in the mosque once "Nizami" or "Golam Azam" dies while there would be a lot of people happy at the death of "Dr Kamal" for his vocal support of Secular Bangladesh. The nafal NAmaz doesnt prove nething....

Well, if Nizami/Azam dies, only a small section of people will mourn. I would say less then 1% of the total BD population. However, when Mujib was killed, it was the overwhelming majority who were happy and said nafal namaz in the mosque. About 90% of the Bangladesh population was happy. This is what my father told me. He was a class 9 student during the liberation war, but didn't participate in the war though. He told me that during his school days in pre-liberation era, the medium of instruction was English, and they used to sing PAK national anthem in the moring. My father was a great supporter of Mujib before independence, and he told me that people loved mujib so much that there were even people who if went to pray alone, they keep the radio on beside them so that he can listen to news what's going on. But everything changed after the liberation. And what my father says of what happened after the liberation is same as what Billah bhai and Dr. Shaad told us here. Except for for Sheikh Mujib's Chela-Chamunda and Rakshi Bahini, hardly any people of Bangladesh supported him.

[billah]

HereWeGo:

I have read your post. My responses to your post are highlighted here.

Originally Posted by HereWeGo
hi billah,
On your first point, I never said that Shaad meant otherwise,However Mujib doesnt deserve to be compared to hitler. There are plenty more good orators. It was just a low blow.

You are right. Those two names should never be in a side-by-side comparison. Communication gap on my part.

2) I know he wasnt too dumb ( i was being sarcastic). Thus i don believe that he would openly loot banks. Can you please mention the name of your pupil on the getaway car? I am sure your fantasy character doesnt exist.

Right again. As I came to know many years later, that bank robbery incident never took place. It was a radical socialist propaganda. There can be no eyewitness to an incident that never happened.

There are however plenty of other things that Mujib's sons were directly involved. I wish I could give you names. I'm sorry, I can't do that.

3)Dude..Fables????? Seriously, I expect better... I mean better better. Atleast give me some proof...atleast not another mystery character.

My apology, I mistook you for a person well-read on Mujib. Obviously, if you were, you would have come across some of the quotes I mentioned.

4)Yes you can blame K.Zia. You can even press charges against her in the court of law but i assure you that she wont be punished by any court...

You are probably also right with your statement about our judicial system here. It is specially true these days, looking at the goons that are being released from the jails these days, after their contract with the CTG.

My point was not about our faulty judiciary, it was about the culpability and failure of our leaders.

5)Comparing Rakhi bahini with RAB is not my analogy. It is the analogy made by plenty of human rights organisation including "Odhikar". And again these men u are fuming against were also FREEDOM FIGHTERS. They don deserve to be called goons for just a few rotten apples.

I am sorry, I don't trust Odhikar. I think Odhikar is backed by the Indian spy agency. I think the same way about AI, HR, CPD, WB, and ADB. I don't put a dime's worth of credibility to the mumbo jumbo they disperse on a daily basis, to serve foreign interests. It is strictly my personal opinion.

Unfortunately, history judges an organization for it's success or failures as a whole, regardless of who actually was responsible. For example, Bangladesh knows today that Hasina would shake hand with any devil for the sake of coming to power. A complete loss of credibility for a leader. Who suffers election losses? Her party.

Those "few rotten apples" might well have been the reason for the tragedies of August 15.

6) Dude trust me you cant win over everyones heart. As i said there would be happy people even if Dr kamal dies tomorrow. Does that make him a bad person? Neways he had his flaws but he was a great leader and a leader who did love his country more than himself and pls don deny it just for the sake of it.

Point well taken and agreed. Nobody is perfect. All great leaders have flaws, even fatal ones, look at Mujib and Zia.

Yet, I can't help but think that it might do you some good to read-up on the documented history of the Mujib saga.

7) A low blow aimed at me.... As i said it was his mistake and it is just my belief that without popular support he could have changed his mind. Now i can be wrong but it doesnt give u the right to make fun of me. I am sure u will feel insulted if i mock your religious belief no matter how much disclaimer i use. Please refrain from such behavior...

Nothing to add here, since you are not defending your initial position on this point. I can assure you, I was dead serious, and no "mocking" was intended. Now, this may not take away your feeling of being insulted. My apologies.

[Bengaliprince176]

I'm a completely neutral poster on this issue. Im far too young and on the wrong side of the border, to have any real input. All i know that Mujib was very popular in BD at the time of liberation, but what amazed me was his popularity in Kolkata and West Bengal when he was in exile. He won Congress many seats (just before the Commie days kicked in), such was his popularity.

Having been a huge fan of Dark Knight, ive watched it 3 times......"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to become the villain". Finding the exact point of Mujibs death in that phrase is causing this long argument lol

[shaad]

I didn't post in this thread in order to simply malign Mujib, his family, or AL. I posted because, having lived through the date in question, I didn't think that August 15th deserved such a tagline. I don't have a high opinion of Khaleda, her sons, or Hasina either. But given that the subject of this thread was Mujib's assassination, I didn't feel the need to discuss their failings in this thread.

Originally Posted by HereWeGo
Comparing Mujib with Adolf Hitler was uncalled for although i understand that u werent referring to the mass murderer Hitler.

If you understand that I wasn't referring to the Hitler as a mass murderer in this analogy, then why do you consider it uncalled for? Hitler had an oratory and presence which resonated with the people of Germany (see some footage of his speeches, in Leni Reifenstahl's Triumph of the Will, for instance). The Treaty of Versailles at the end of the First World War had deprived Germany of various territories, demilitarised the Rhineland, imposed severely economically damaging sanctions, re-created Poland, which even moderate Germans regarded as an outrage, and also blamed Germany for all the horrors of the war, something which major historians considered to be victor's justice: most European nations in the run-up to World War I had become increasingly militarised and were eager to fight. The culpability of Germany was used as a basis to impose reparations on Germany. The German economy was so weak that only a small percentage of reparations was paid in hard currency. Nonetheless, even the payment of this small percentage of the original reparations (219 billion Gold Reichsmarks) still placed a significant burden on the German economy, accounting for as much as one third of post-treaty hyperinflation. The German people were demoralized, felt unfairly put-upon, and frankly, in dire straits economically. Hitler was initially felt by them to be a saviour, not only for his oratory, or the reconquest of territories that the Germans saw as theirs, but also for what he was able to achieve for them in the economic and civil arenas -- his regime oversaw one of the greatest expansions of industrial production and civil improvement Germany had ever seen, mostly based on debt flotation and expansion of the military, with the unemployment rate being cut substantially (coming close to full employment). And it wasn't just the Germans who viewed him in this light -- he had supporters in both Britain (among members of the the Royal Family no less) and in the United States (George Bush's grandfather Prescott Bush, for example). Of course, this saviour later turned out to be a monster with severe consequences for the German people. And that is the parallel that I am trying to push -- that people or nations have different needs at different times, and an individual who might have been perfect satisfying one particular need could prove disastrous when trying to tackle another.

You might also want to examine the parallel between how Mujib and Hitler both came to power (well orchestrated democratic campaigns), and subsequently dismantled the mechanisms of democracy to ensure that they couldn't be challenged (BKSAL and banning of all other political parties by Mujib; declaration of the Nazi party as the only legal party in Germany along with the banning and dissolution of all others by Hitler).

I notice that you didn't comment on the parallel I drew with Churchill, another competent orator and campaigner -- he became PM after Neville Chamberlain's resignation in 1940, and led Britain successfully through the Second World War. The British were perhaps smarter than us, for shortly after the war, he was defeated in the 1945 elections -- the British felt that the man who led them in war was not the man to lead them in peace. The truth of this was borne out during his second term as PM (1951-1955); it was marred by one foreign crisis after another, and against his wishes, the dismemberment and dissolution of the British Empire.

While u are referring to his son as rapist and looters, I highly doubt how much of it is true and how much is propaganda. While there is no smoke without fire, I understand that his son had an affair with a wife of an army officer. However I am not sure if he was responsible for raping neone. Plus History is written by winners. And when it comes to Army Vs Mujib, well we all know who the winner is.

The fact that Sheik Kamal and his gun-toting friends were shot at and injured by the police in the vicinity of Bangladesh Bank on December 15 is a matter of public record -- Kamal was taken to the hospital afterwards. You seem already aware of one "affair" by one of his sons; in an environment where one could be "disappeared" by the Rakkhi Bahini (yes, even being a famous Freedom Fighter wouldn't save you -- I have already mentioned the torture and killing of Siraj Sikder), do you think most people would publicly bring charges of rape even when these "affairs" were coerced?

You said, "And when it comes to Army Vs Mujib, well we all know who the winner is." Do you? Do you think the Army was necessarily the winner? Are you aware of the coups and counter-coups that occurred shortly afterwards? Personally, I think the winners in the long run were we Bangladeshis ourselves; we did finally get our democracy, however flawed, back.

Looting, well If I were a presidents son and I was greedy than i would definately steal money but not by robbing a bank but in other sophisticated ways (does Tarique Zia ring a bell) . Either he was too dumb or he was ......mmmm Tooo tooo Dumb

Interesting attempt at obfuscation by bringing up Tarique Zia here -- I don't hold him or his mother in high esteem either; but, as I have said earlier, the subject of this discussion was not their failings, but those of Mujib's regime. As for whether Sheikh Kamal and his brothers were dumb or not, I cannot say -- it seems to me, though, that they felt that there was an aura of superiority and entitlement about them, that having brought independence to Bangladesh, they considered themselves above others, and viewed all of Bangladesh as their personal patrimony. Note that I don't think Tarique was any different -- perhaps just a tad more sophisticated in his "looting".

And knowing some of Muibs closest people, I can assure you that he for one loved his country more than his sons.

Okay, let's talk about this a little. Time and again, in this thread and others, I have seen posters "assure" others that what they say is true, because they know some of [insert appropriate politician here]'s "closest people". What you have to understand is that given the nature of Bangladeshi economics and society, most of us with the access and leisure to post in this forum come from what, for lack of a better term, I will simply call the elite of Bangladeshi society. As such, most of us tend to have relatives and acquaintances with close associations with political figures and leaders from all political parties. But not all of us feel the need to brag about it. Hence, arguments based on this perceived notion of being closer to the major players and thus having one's opinions carry more weight or be privileged are simply flawed from the beginning. To reiterate, most of us have these close associations too. Yet, obviously, we disagree.

Neways few days back Falu was arrested and charges pressed against him was for stealing relief materials. Would u blame K.Zia for that?

Yes, I would. In fact, I am actually surprised that you couch the question in a manner that suggests that one wouldn't. Do you not consider a head of state (or for that matter anyone in a position of leadership) to be responsible for all acts, good or bad, committed under his/her purview?

Now comes the Rakhi Bahini. The men u are talking abt are mostly if not all, are Freedom Fighters themselves. They were witneses to one of the most horrific mass murder in the history of Civilisation. They had their own Grudges. These people did commit murders and sometimes of innocent civilians just for being bihari. While I do not support extra judicial killings but they are the RAB's of 1972. The last time I checked people in Bangladesh are happy with RABs. If they are than they cant blame Sheikh Muib for his Rakhi bahini either. A lot of innocent people also got killed in the hands of RAB. While RAB's are the most well trained of Army and police personnels. These Rakhi Bahini men were the most well trained Freedom fighters.

Yes, many of the Rakkhi Bahini were Freedom Fighters (though many Freedom Fighters simply returned to civilian life after the war was over), and it was ostensibly formed to recover arms from civilians after the war. In practice, though, this was a personal armed militia, pledging loyalty to Mujib himself, able to operate extra-judicially, and outside the authority of the army or the law. Tell me again why the nation needed this. You seem to think that the only people they killed were Biharis (not that even that would be excusable); on the contrary, the Rakkhi Bahini captured, tortured, and killed, i.e. "disappeared" people at the whim of Mujib.

There is a considerable difference between how one goes about training a professional army and how one goes about training a band of partisan guerillas. We have several knowledgeable posters from military families or with military backgrounds in this forum; they can expound on this theme if they want to. Suffice it to say that there are strict criteria for recruitment in a professional army, clear lines of command and responsibility, uniform codes of conduct based on the Geneva Conventions, defined requirements for promotion, etc., which precludes them (at least, in theory) from being utilized as just hired thugs or enforcers. With all due credit to the Muktijoddhas, without whom we would not be an independent nation, outside of members of the East Bengal Regiment, they were primarily civilians -- students, clerks, farmers -- who were given some rudimentary training in guerilla tactics. Why were they recruited into a separate militia after the war was over?

I don't know how old you are or what your experiences are. But I have lived through three authoritarian regimes in my country, those of Mujib, Zia, and Ershad. This is, obviously and by its very nature, a subjective opinion, but during both Zia's and Ershad's regimes, I did not see people being as nervous or as stressed as they were during Mujib's. They certainly did not seem "happy". I understand that you are trying to suggest that people were just as "happy" with the Rakkhi Bahini as they were recently with RAB; but were you around at that time? I was, and I distinctly recall people being afraid of the Rakkhi Bahini, not happy at their presence.

As far as the "nafal namaz" at the mosque goes ( after his death). I am sure u will find a lot of people Mourning like crazy in the mosque once "Nizami" or "Golam Azam" dies while there would be a lot of people happy at the death of "Dr Kamal" for his vocal support of Secular Bangladesh. The nafal NAmaz doesnt prove nething....

We shall see. By your argument, one would have expected to see throngs of people celebrating when Zia died too. I was around at that time too, and didn't see that.

Finally comes the BAKSAL. Yes that was one Huge mistake from the part of Sheikh Mujib. Again knowing some of his close pupils I do believe that he would have eventually changed his mind if he lost all his popular support. Even Assuming he wont have changed his mind I still do not think that he deserves to be compared as a huge villain for this one act. He was our leader at the most torred time our country had to face.

We, as a people, fought for our independence, for the right to forge our own destiny in a democratic nation. And you don't think that the elimination of our democracy, the removal of the right to make our own decisions and to elect the representatives we wanted, and instead the establishment of what was essentially a tyranny, was a reprehensible act? We won a victory after sacrificing millions of souls for a "Shonar Bangla". Do you have any idea how demoralized people were when we saw that dream turn into just a personal fiefdom? You seem very dismissive about this BAKSAL "mistake" of Mujib's; but you didn't answer the question I raised previously -- if there were no democratic means for removing Mujib from power, and if people were dissatisfied with his regime, how else could they bring about change?

[Pundit]

21st August - the second Blackest day in our Independent history ?

[Kabir]

Unfortunately, most Bangladeshis believe in one rule - if you're a BNP hater, you're an AL supporter...and if you're an AL hater, then you're BNP supportere. You can't be both an AL hater and a BNP hater.

[Pundit]

November 3rd - 3rd Blackest day in our independent history ?