Should Bangladesh have relations with Israel?

[Rubu]

a different note, but to add to your point ekatturerBangalee, hitler and his nazis killed 1 million people at the span of 4 years, and that was 60 years ago. they still look for those nazi officers and punish them.

here is a simple math, if you still remember "oikik niyom"

if pakis and rajakars kills 3 millions (3 times more) people at a span of 9 months (5 times less) and it happened 35 years ago (25 years earlier) what should we do? forget?

[Banglatiger84]

Ok, heres my 2 poishas

1) We should not downplay or forget what was carried out by Pak army no matter whether it is 35 or 350 years past the event
2) However, we should not hold a grudge against ordinary pakistanis, the Pak cricket team, or Pakistan as a country for that matter


The reason many Bengalis feel aggrieved is that unlike Germany in WW2, where they were forced to condemn the crime, some pakistanis still gloat over 1971 and "our boys teaching those backstabbing bengalis a good lesson". Thats why some of us still have an antipathy, its hard not to feel bad when some of them imply they will not regret such a thing occuring again if the situation so demanded.

That said, we should not hold a grudge against ordinary pakistanis who dont hold such a view. Its wrogn to paint them all with one brush.

[imtiaz82]

Originally posted by Banglatiger84
Ok, heres my 2 poishas

1) We should not downplay or forget what was carried out by Pak army no matter whether it is 35 or 350 years past the event
2) However, we should not hold a grudge against ordinary pakistanis, the Pak cricket team, or Pakistan as a country for that matter


The reason many Bengalis feel aggrieved is that unlike Germany in WW2, where they were forced to condemn the crime, some pakistanis still gloat over 1971 and "our boys teaching those backstabbing bengalis a good lesson". Thats why some of us still have an antipathy, its hard not to feel bad when some of them imply they will not regret such a thing occuring again if the situation so demanded.

That said, we should not hold a grudge against ordinary pakistanis who dont hold such a view. Its wrogn to paint them all with one brush.

I totally agree with you..

[Dream theater]

Originally posted by Banglatiger84
Ok, heres my 2 poishas

1) We should not downplay or forget what was carried out by Pak army no matter whether it is 35 or 350 years past the event
2) However, we should not hold a grudge against ordinary pakistanis, the Pak cricket team, or Pakistan as a country for that matter
.

We should never forget what we went through. The spirit of our struggle is what missing today among us.

I still believe those [Edited] should have been tried and shot to death for their henious crimes. Rather our leaders decided to forgive them.

But as a country to move forward we have to do whats best for our country,economy and security.

BanglarTiger I agree with you. I myself saw some Pakistani students saying things you have mentioned. But I also have seen couple saying sorry for what have happened in 1971 and acknowledged the mistake.

I guess its the Pakistani hitory lessons which corrupts the minds of those.

Edited on, September 17, 2005, 5:32 PM GMT, by reverse_swing.
Reason: mod.content

[ekatturerBangalee]

Originally posted by Dream theater
We should never forget what we went through. The spirit of our struggle is what missing today among us

Thanks brother.

You know we have some “Smart Alecs” among us. You become monkeys if you favor diplomatic ties with Israel because of their human rights violation and continuing repression on Palestinians while it’s ok to forget the worst kind of genocide by the Pakis since it occurred 35 years ago. Duh!

Why not say the truth that it’s ok to forget and forgive them since they are Muslims? It’s ok to forgive no matter how gruesome and how horrendous the atrocities were if the perpetrator was Muslim. Right? Again and again I have seen this type of mindset in our “so called Muslim community”. These groups of people are always there to critisize Israel or India but remain mum for the atrocities by Muslims like in Darfur, Sudan or even Kurdistan, Iraq. You will not hear anything from them on the subject of worst kind of human rights violation by the Muslims in Nigeria, Uganda and by almost all of the Arab countries.

Next subject, in this technological age, you need to have political and economic relation with countries for trade and prosperity. Last time I check, Israel did nothing bad or wrong to Bangladesh? I know some “Smart Alecs” just can’t stand the Jews. I feel sorry for them. At my work, I have several Jewish Colleagues – they are even more friendlier and more helpful than those Muslim Pakis.

BTW. I have nothing against this new generation Pakistanis. They can’t be held responsible for what their MUSLIM countrymen did to us.

[VladMamu]

I don't understand why all the western powers are complaining so much about muslims not recognizing the state of Israel. After the first world war, Britain and the other powers had to come up with such a sensitive place to put in all the Jews!!( i.e the Balfour Declaration of 1917 when the British endorsed a Jewish homeland in Palestine).

.

I don't know the exact history of the Jews in history my friend, my read up on it one day. However, it is a shameful history that Europeans have with the Jews. I think Europeans have changed (most of them) since the dark days of the world wars. The explosion of education, history, television, and mass communicasion among the population have created an entire different breed of Europeans. Nevertheless, the Jews were driven out, and it's causing a problem, indeed. I wish to learn more about it one day.

[VladMamu]

Originally posted by ekatturerBangalee

Thanks brother.

You know we have some “Smart Alecs” among us. You become monkeys if you favor diplomatic ties with Israel because of their human rights violation and continuing repression on Palestinians while it’s ok to forget the worst kind of genocide by the Pakis since it occurred 35 years ago. Duh!

Why not say the truth that it’s ok to forget and forgive them since they are Muslims? It’s ok to forgive no matter how gruesome and how horrendous the atrocities were if the perpetrator was Muslim. Right? Again and again I have seen this type of mindset in our “so called Muslim community”. These groups of people are always there to critisize Israel or India but remain mum for the atrocities by Muslims like in Darfur, Sudan or even Kurdistan, Iraq. You will not hear anything from them on the subject of worst kind of human rights violation by the Muslims in Nigeria, Uganda and by almost all of the Arab countries.

Next subject, in this technological age, you need to have political and economic relation with countries for trade and prosperity. Last time I check, Israel did nothing bad or wrong to Bangladesh? I know some “Smart Alecs” just can’t stand the Jews. I feel sorry for them. At my work, I have several Jewish Colleagues – they are even more friendlier and more helpful than those Muslim Pakis.

BTW. I have nothing against this new generation Pakistanis. They can’t be held responsible for what their MUSLIM countrymen did to us.

Good response EkaturerBangalee. You have a good head and common sense in my view. (what exactly does that mean? Bengalis of 71, is that right?)

[Dream theater]

Originally posted by ekatturerBangalee

Thanks brother.

You know we have some “Smart Alecs” among us. You become monkeys if you favor diplomatic ties with Israel because of their human rights violation and continuing repression on Palestinians while it’s ok to forget the worst kind of genocide by the Pakis since it occurred 35 years ago. Duh!

I do agree with you to the extent that in this age we need to have great relationships with everyone. But I disagree that no Muslim country criticised or condemn darfur or Kurds.

In case of Darfur UN were not able to take action because of China. China did threat to use VETO in case of any resolution. Kurds were opressed and repressed under the watch of US and others. Saddam became a monster as a result of Western sponsorship. US and UK were mum when he used chemical weapons against Iraninas.

So its wrong and stretch of the fact that we Muslims dont do anything about killing of other Muslims.

Me like lots of other Bangladeshis who were born after 1971 wanted to see a lot of things in our country. Trial of Rajakars, Signature of General Osmani in the papers instead of General Aurora ( or even with Gen Aurora), a unified history of Independence war, lifelong support of Freedom fighters.

But a lot of those were not done and will not be done. Practically, we will have to at least fulfill the dreams of freedom fighters. feed our people, pull them out of poverty and make it as prosperious as they wanted. That is something that will keep the spirit alive.

You can not judge a group or nation by observing a portion of the group. That is true for Jewish people, same is also true for Pakistanis.

Edited on, September 17, 2005, 9:44 PM GMT, by Dream theater.

[ekatturerBangalee]

Originally posted by Dream theater
But I disagree that no Muslim country criticised or condemn darfur or Kurds.

Nobody is denying that. I was not talking about Muslim countries. I was only talking about members of this forum. I have not seen any post on above subject or atrocities carried out by Muslims on Muslims.

[imtiaz82]

Originally posted by Dream theater
I do agree with you to the extent that in this age we need to have great relationships with everyone. But I disagree that no Muslim country criticised or condemn darfur or Kurds.

In case of Darfur UN were not able to take action because of China. China did threat to use VETO in case of any resolution. Kurds were opressed and repressed under the watch of US and others. Saddam became a monster as a result of Western sponsorship. US and UK were mum when he used chemical weapons against Iraninas.

So its wrong and stretch of the fact that we Muslims dont do anything about killing of other Muslims.

Me like lots of other Bangladeshis who were born after 1971 wanted to see a lot of things in our country. Trial of Rajakars, Signature of General Osmani in the papers instead of General Aurora ( or even with Gen Aurora), a unified history of Independence war, lifelong support of Freedom fighters.

But a lot of those were not done and will not be done. Practically, we will have to at least fulfill the dreams of freedom fighters. feed our people, pull them out of poverty and make it as prosperious as they wanted. That is something that will keep the spirit alive.

You can not judge a group or nation by observing a portion of the group. That is true for Jewish people, same is also true for Pakistanis.

Well said! As for ekatur bengali's question, I think the reason why most members stayed away from speaking about the incidents in Dafur, Iraq etc is because the topic is on Israel and their action on the Palestanians.

I am sure many members would have expressed their deep regret and condemn the horrendous acts committed by muslims if the topic was related..

[Dream theater]

Originally posted by ekatturerBangalee

Nobody is denying that. I was not talking about Muslim countries. I was only talking about members of this forum. I have not seen any post on above subject or atrocities carried out by Muslims on Muslims.

Some reasons are Darfur is not invaded for 35 years and people are not systemetically driven out of their homeland, Darfur did not cause two wars and still remains one of the most thorny issues, Darfur is not a place which poses religious significance to 3 major religion on this planet And Darfur is in Africa. Very few people cares about Africa unless Muslims do something wrong.

And I did not see you opening any thread issuing condemnation of Western Countries regarding their inability to act when millions of people died in Rwanda infront of everyone. Muslims were not involved there.

Edited on, September 17, 2005, 10:48 PM GMT, by Dream theater.

[BanglaCool]

I just wanted to say don't forget Israel is still an occupying power. Those who condone the act of an oppressor is also a part of the oppression. How would you feel if other nations supported a country which invades and occupies Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia or any other country?

[Dream theater]

Originally posted by BanglaCool
I just wanted to say don't forget Israel is still an occupying power. Those who condone the act of an oppressor is also a part of the oppression. How would you feel if other nations supported a country which invades and occupies Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia or any other country?

Yup. Israel is still occupying power among lot of other things.

[Rubu]

Originally posted by Banglatiger84
2) However, we should not hold a grudge against ordinary pakistanis, the Pak cricket team, or Pakistan as a country for that matter

an army represents a country. so does a crickte team. and guess what, without the support of ordinary people an army cannot possibly carry on an attack like that for too long. not for nine months. did they ever do anything to show that they are against the mass marder? i never heard of any.

rational or not, good or bad, i don't care. i hate all pakistanis equally for their act on 1971.

[Dream theater]

Originally posted by Rubu

an army represents a country. so does a crickte team. and guess what, without the support of ordinary people an army cannot possibly carry on an attack like that for too long. not for nine months. did they ever do anything to show that they are against the mass marder? i never heard of any.

rational or not, good or bad, i don't care. i hate all pakistanis equally for their act on 1971.

Thats just stupid.

Army does represent a country. But a country's choice is represented by Army's action only when country have elected government. Military government does not represent all people.

And you said it there. Rational or not you dont care. According to your theory Americans should hate all Muslims living in US cause they are all Muslims and without their support Osama could not do anything. Everyone should hate all Germans and Everyone should hate Jews ( BTW Israel do have an elected government which takes all those actions).

[Rubu]

where the heck is the freaking relation. don't talk nonsense.

if u failed to read my post, here it is: i expressed a personal choice. who the heck are u to change that? its the muslim people of usa who got harmed most (after iraqi and afgan people) by the action of osama. and most of them did not hear his name before. where is the relation? if u have not known, people in pakistan used to cheer for their army because they are fighting enemies of islam and people who betrayed their country. even today, ask any pakistany if they think what have been done in '71 was wrong. just randomly choose 10 pakistani, ask their opinion and then come back to me and talk about it.


Edited on, September 18, 2005, 1:51 PM GMT, by Rubu.

[Banglatiger84]

if you talk about 10 random pakistanis, I would say 9 of them are ignorant of ground realities in 1971 because they are taught so throughout their education system. They have a jaundiced impression of the army going there to save innocent people being killed by India -inspired troublemakers

However, if all pakistanis become fully aware and educated about facts, i.e. the gross disparity in deaths, the brutal and intentional massacres carried out by the army, then i am sure at least 70% will not support their army's actions.

The rest will do so because they are nationalistic bigots who have a mentality similar to "my country right or wrong, we will kill as many as necessary when we fight against India"

as for muslims in usa, well unfortunately there is a minority who say "rationale or not, good or bad, i hate muslims for that day". Now to you its all "nonsense". to them its perfect sense. They also saw palestinians cheering on tv.

[Rubu]

Originally posted by Banglatiger84
if you talk about 10 random pakistanis, I would say 9 of them are ignorant of ground realities in 1971 because they are taught so throughout their education system.

if u call them all morons, fine. but i've no love for moron's as well. that has been one excuse vastly used, but not possible in reality.

the event of one of the worst mass marder of human history can neither be forgotten nor forgiven. every single bangladeshi and pakistani envolved in those events need to bring to justice. will your pakistani friends help us doing that? what will happen when we try to this justice? won't they act against us? if they don't, i'll warmly take them as friends. but as long as they are on the side of our enemies and killers, there is no way we consider them something else.

Edited on, September 18, 2005, 3:17 PM GMT, by Rubu.

[Dream theater]

Originally posted by Rubu
where the heck is the freaking relation. don't talk nonsense.

if u failed to read my post, here it is: i expressed a personal choice. who the heck are u to change that? its the muslim people of usa who got harmed most (after iraqi and afgan people) by the action of osama. and most of them did not hear his name before. where is the relation? if u have not known, people in pakistan used to cheer for their army because they are fighting enemies of islam and people who betrayed their country. even today, ask any pakistany if they think what have been done in '71 was wrong. just randomly choose 10 pakistani, ask their opinion and then come back to me and talk about it.


Edited on, September 18, 2005, 1:51 PM GMT, by Rubu.

Just like you expressed your opinion I a entitled to have my own.

The relation is in stereotyping. We dont judge a whole group by action of some. If we are not sure about rest we give them the benefit of doubt.

Actually , I did ask . Most of the one with head over their shoulder condemns the killing and everything. I bet people like you can only see the creepy ones. I wonder why.

[Dream theater]

Originally posted by Rubu

if u call them all morons, fine. but i've no love for moron's as well. that has been one excuse vastly used, but not possible in reality.

the event of one of the worst mass marder of human history can neither be forgotten nor forgiven. every single bangladeshi and pakistani envolved in those events need to bring to justice. will your pakistani friends help us doing that? what will happen when we try to this justice? won't they act against us? if they don't, i'll warmly take them as friends. but as long as they are on the side of our enemies and killers, there is no way we consider them something else.

Edited on, September 18, 2005, 3:17 PM GMT, by Rubu.

The thing is when you want justice you gotta act on that. We already ( Sheikh Mujib) forgave the rajakars for their henious acts in 1974. That should never have happened. So how do you propose to try those now??? Ideas please.

[fab]

If Sharon does follow the Peace road map (that was agreed upon by the Palestinians), can't see any reason why we should not have relations with them.

BTW, do we have any diplomatic relations with Russia? Or is the solidarity weaker for our Chechnyan brothers?

[Pundit]

Chechnya happened long after dip rel were established with Russia. Moreover, a relationship with Russia is in someways helpful....though by principle, you have a point.

And ofcourse, who will be able to deal with the communist/socialist boyott of all things Bangladeshi....that's some serious impact.

[fab]

And ofcourse, who will be able to deal with the communist/socialist boyott of all things Bangladeshi....that's some serious impact.

How could I forget? Our BNP/Jamaati friends would much rather prefer relations with the sacrilegious communists. Any group is better than those wretched Jews!

[PoorFan]

The thing is when you want justice you gotta act on that. We already ( Sheikh Mujib) forgave the rajakars for their henious acts in 1974. That should never have happened. So how do you propose to try those now??? Ideas please.

What about start with making / forcing those rajakars to recognition our constitution, since they are enjoying the general forgiveness from our previous government, but they don't hesitate to violet our constitution in name of Islam. Besides how come a political organization can run politics in a country, without recognition fundamental constitution of that country?

[Dream theater]

Originally posted by fab

How could I forget? Our BNP/Jamaati friends would much rather prefer relations with the sacrilegious communists. Any group is better than those wretched Jews!

Actually relationship with ex communists was established during the time of Sheikh Mujib. Blame BNP for what they deserve.