Firefox 2.0 FINAL available for download

[Arnab]

Originally Posted by Hatebreed
It seems Opera's vigorous attempt at perfectionism is too problematic. It's trying to offer the user flexibility of everything under one hood, but neglecting the difficulty it sets developers to stay on top of maintenance.

....

Opera simply assumes or "expects" things work with "Opera", instead of making their software more accessible and backwards compatible with existing setup and standards.

Er, this is nothing new. It has been like this since the inception of Opera. Opera has always been strict about maintaining higher standards.

What percentage of "average users" use rich text editors anyway? They emerged only very recently, if I remember correctly. Writely was a startup even in the beginning of this year. It became Google docs recently; and Google says they are working hard to become compatible with Opera. FCKEditor is currently being talked about being integrated into Wikipedia, but not implemented yet.

I think Opera has always been on the "right" side of the issues. Their business model was different from the get go. In the beginning, they had a small, core group of European customer base so they did not have to worry about money. They never intended to take over IE in browser market share, so they sort of quietly did their own thing for users who might be interested in using innovative features. Recently, they have been getting large amounts of revenues from the search engine companies, enabling them to make Opera free.

[Hatebreed]

You are only proving my point. This is nothing new is exactly the problem, because Opera is deliberately neglecting its obvious drawbacks to maintain its "elite" status. A developer should never make assumptions about end-users. It makes no sense for users who prefer Opera for its wide range of features and not able to make full use of it. I don't know what "percentage" or "average" users use RTEs, you're probably asking the wrong question.. How many people don't? Who are the average users?.. As far as I'm concerned, most websites nowadays that involve some sort of customisable content publishing (user-submitted) use an RTE. Some use very basic editors for simple text editing (for emails, message boards), also known as WYSIWYG editors, and many use advanced RTEs for full-scale applications (CMS, blogs, wiki) and their functionality vary from image/video publishing to creating tables, spreadsheets, etc, depending on the purpose of its use.

At least FCKeditor being a powerful and easy to integrate open-source editor has more demand for browser compatibility, which Opera has lacked for some time. Major blogging sites like Blogger and LiveJournal also face similar compatibility issues.

There's nothing wrong with Opera's business model or overall agenda, that was not my argument. Opera's worry is not IE, but most likely FF which is becoming increasingly popular for its intuitive features similar to Opera and it's reasonably compatible. If Opera wants to stay on the sideline always, then it's quite unfortunate.

[Arnab]

Originally Posted by Hatebreed
You are only proving my point. This is nothing new is exactly the problem, because Opera is deliberately neglecting its obvious drawbacks to maintain its "elite" status. A developer should never make assumptions about end-users. It makes no sense for users who prefer Opera for its wide range of features and not able to make full use of it.

"Drawback" is probably not the correct term here. And I am not sure what you mean by not being able to "make full use of Opera's features".

And given that the user base of any all-purpose browser software is bigger and more diverse than any other kind of user base, it's illogical for a company to provide compatibility for every kind of nascent web technology out there.

Rather it makes much more sense, in this particular case, to stick to a set of universal standrads and build/improve on those.

The beauty of Opera is that they provide all the nifty new features without breaking any standard they have chosen to adhere to.

I think that's commendable.

I don't know what "percentage" or "average" users use RTEs, you're probably asking the wrong question.. How many people don't? Who are the average users?..

Er, it's you who brought up the term "average user". So I assumed you know what it means?

As far as I'm concerned, most websites nowadays that involve some sort of customisable content publishing (user-submitted) use an RTE. Some use very basic editors for simple text editing (for emails, message boards), also known as WYSIWYG editors, and many use advanced RTEs for full-scale applications (CMS, blogs, wiki) and their functionality vary from image/video publishing to creating tables, spreadsheets, etc, depending on the purpose of its use.

Yes, for example, this very messageboard, perhaps the most robust and popular messageboard software out there, uses an RTE, and I am having no trouble whatsover using the feature on my Opera 9.

I am also having no trouble in using any of the Internet mail programs (e.g. gmail) that have embedded RTEs.

Major blogging sites like Blogger and LiveJournal also face similar compatibility issues.

I am not having any trouble editing my blog with the RTE at blogger using Opera 9.

Does livejournal use RTE? I don't see it.

There's nothing wrong with Opera's business model or overall agenda, that was not my argument. Opera's worry is not IE, but most likely FF which is becoming increasingly popular for its intuitive features similar to Opera and it's reasonably compatible. If Opera wants to stay on the sideline always, then it's quite unfortunate.

I think it's common knowledge that Opera is targeting the mobile devices rather than PCs.

But nonetheless, their pc browser has always been and continues to be pretty awesome.

[reverse_swing]

Life without Firefox and google is like living in a dark age.I am using FF since Jan 2005 but I have a soft corner for Opera too as I worked for TeleNor few months although last time I used Opera about 5/6 years ago. But I will try to install this again. Arnab bole kotha.

[Hatebreed]

Originally Posted by Arnab
"Drawback" is probably not the correct term here. And I am not sure what you mean by not being able to "make full use of Opera's features".

And given that the user base of any all-purpose browser software is bigger and more diverse than any other kind of user base, it's illogical for a company to provide compatibility for every kind of nascent web technology out there.

Rather it makes much more sense, in this particular case, to stick to a set of universal standrads and build/improve on those.

Drawbacks is Opera's lack of backwards compatibility which I already explained. I see no need to go over this again. To have tons of features and still have problems with browsing compatibility is not improvement. Everytime Opera comes up with a new version, something breaks down which worked with previous versions, then it's a long wait before developers find a way to get around the problem. Their content blocking feature doesn't work properly as it often fails to identify block or identify them after clicking on them. Then there are rendering issues across non-Windows platforms.

Originally Posted by Arnab
The beauty of Opera is that they provide all the nifty new features without breaking any standard they have chosen to adhere to.

I think that's commendable.

Sounds more like a compromise to me.

Originally Posted by Arnab
Er, it's you who brought up the term "average user". So I assumed you know what it means?

Average users being people who use the internet for various reasons from static surfing to interactive activities, including content publishing, with or without knowledge of web standards or programming.

Originally Posted by Arnab
Yes, for example, this very messageboard, perhaps the most robust and popular messageboard software out there, uses an RTE, and I am having no trouble whatsover using the feature on my Opera 9.

I am also having no trouble in using any of the Internet mail programs (e.g. gmail) that have embedded RTEs.

Both use very basic text-editors supported by any browser you might come across. Robust and popular software does not equate to robust tools.

Originally Posted by Arnab
I am not having any trouble editing my blog with the RTE at blogger using Opera 9.

Does livejournal use RTE? I don't see it.

I stopped using Blogger, so they might have fixed it. LJ uses FCKeditor, though by default they offer a plain text-area for browser support.

Originally Posted by Arnab
I think it's common knowledge that Opera is targeting the mobile devices rather than PCs.

But nonetheless, their pc browser has always been and continues to be pretty awesome.

Like I said, even though Opera offers users the flexibility of many features in one package, how its developers persist to ignore the basic, but severe browser integral issues only serves to reassure me that they don't know what they are doing.

You and me have multiple browsers at our disposal, can therefore cope and experiment with comtability issues, but not those "average" users who just want to get on with their simple tasks, which is why FF is probably the better choice.

[Arnab]

I think you are being contradictory. You pander to the "average user" base, but the "simple" and "basic" practices of these "average users" that you talk about are not "simple" and "basic" at all.

Everytime Opera comes up with a new version, something breaks down which worked with previous versions, then it's a long wait before developers find a way to get around the problem.

But how are developers "average users" that use "simple" and "basic" applications? Shouldn't professional developers be keeping tabs on the new standards all the time? And these standards are pretty open processes, with updates and adoptions of new standards provided live over the Net. You are basically accusing Opera of not slacking off like some of the developers.

Their content blocking feature doesn't work properly as it often fails to identify block or identify them after clicking on them.

That seems like an issue. But I haven't faced it so far in Opera 9.

Then there are rendering issues across non-Windows platforms.

A non-windows user is not quite your "average user". They are most probably an Apple geek or a Linux geek.

You and me have multiple browsers at our disposal, can therefore cope and experiment with comtability issues, but not those "average" users who just want to get on with their simple tasks, which is why FF is probably the better choice.

I would have agreed with you on this a few years before. In fact, what you are describing has been the standard argument against the browser all these years. But with Opera 9, I think the gap between the so-called average user and Opera has shortened considerably.

I mentioned Opera being compatible with gmail, blogger, vbulletin (and now mention mediawiki). These are the four most popular kinds of web-applications in use by average users today: Internet mail program, blogging program, messageboard, and wikis. I think Opera 9 works fine with all of these "simple" and "basic" web-applications.

From the small developer's POV, this site uses a handmade CMS system to manage articles and pictures, and Opera 9 works fine with that, too.

Whether this will translate to more users using Opera remains to be seen.

[Hatebreed]

Originally Posted by Arnab
But how are developers "average users" that use "simple" and "basic" applications? Shouldn't professional developers be keeping tabs on the new standards all the time? And these standards are pretty open processes, with updates and adoptions of new standards provided live over the Net. You are basically accusing Opera of not slacking off like some of the developers.

Arnab, you're twisting my words. I specifically mentioned "average users" and "developers" seperately for each of my point, and for different circumstances. Opera's non-Windows rendering issues is a problem on its own, whether it's an average user or a geek.

Of course "professional" developers want to improve on "new" standards, but "professionals" also don't forget about a thing called "backwards compatibility". To my frustration Opera's updates only seem to provide new "features" and bug fixes, which is great but it still fails to provide any support for many long running issues.

The applications you mention are popular but not more popular than most of its competitors, and they do NOT use an advanced Rich Text Editor. GMail works because it uses a basic editor, like most e-mail services are restricted to for browser compatibility issue, hint hint. I've read it had compatibility issues also on VB, which may have been fixed but most likely at the cost of compromise. Thank god Opera at least supports a basic editor because it decided to follow FF.

MediaWiki is the original software written for Wikipedia and does not use an advanced editor and could be modified by developer to use any editor, and it is not an application for "average" users. AFAIK Wikipedia is more popular than any Wiki site and as you said may use an advanced RTE in future like FCKeditor.

Unfortunately we know it is not supported by Opera for a long time. This becomes a disadvantage for developers to not use a perfectly good RTE and Opera doesn't seem to be doing much about it. Ultimately, end-users are unable to make the best use of those applications.

Another popular editor called HTMLarea is also not supported by Opera. Using Opera, go back the Opera Wiki link you gave me and read what it says under "What exactly is a textarea editor?", then follow the link it gives to a fully loaded HTMLarea test - it does not work.

There are other more popular blogging/CMS applications than Blogger, namely Wordpress, Typad, Movable Type, LiveJournal, Xanga, etc which are also also restricted to provide plain text editors because a major browser like Opera still has no support for a full-scale RTE.

Anyway, you're ignoring that there are some serious compatibility issues on Opera, which is a problem for many developers and end-users, average or geek. I use Opera and I have nothing personal against it but I feel it deserves most of the criticism it gets and fails to address. If Opera wishes to reach out to the wider market, sooner it learns this truth the better. I'll leave the rest to your judgement.

[Bancan]

opera niya eto debate. just use anything beside IE and ur good.

[Arnab]

This is getting boring and I am not going to continue writing long replies any more, but...

Originally Posted by Hatebreed
There are other more popular blogging/CMS applications than Blogger, namely Wordpress, Typad, Movable Type, LiveJournal, Xanga, etc which are also also restricted to provide plain text editors because a major browser like Opera still has no support for a full-scale RTE.

Opera, a *major* browser with a market share of less than 5%, is the reason why all these web-apps are "restricted" to providing full scale RTE? I call bullshit.

I hear you lound when you say you have nothing against Opera personally, but the way you are picking nits here seems to suggest otherwise. Are you sure you are not one of those FF evangelists?

[reverse_swing]

Originally Posted by Hatebreed



MediaWiki is the original software written for Wikipedia and does not use an advanced editor and could be modified by developer to use any editor, and it is not an application for "average" users.

Well from my personal experience I can tell you that now a days most of the R&D companies and universities use this for information tracking. This is very common now. And yes this is an application for average users as well. Right now I am reading one document in my local network edited by one of my colleagues who is an Analogue Engineer and this guy doesn't give a damn about web programming . After your graduation when you have some real time work experience then you will find many such average users in your life.

[Hatebreed]

Originally Posted by Arnab
This is getting boring and I am not going to continue writing long replies any more, but...



Opera, a *major* browser with a market share of less than 5%, is the reason why all these web-apps are "restricted" to providing full scale RTE? I call bullshit.

I hear you lound when you say you have nothing against Opera personally, but the way you are picking nits here seems to suggest otherwise. Are you sure you are not one of those FF evangelists?

I say Opera is a major browser because it's still popular in terms of features it offers and all the "non-PC" platforms it's available on compared to IE, FF and the rest. If you bring market share percentage into account, you'll see even the PSP browser somewhere in the ranks - it's all bullshit. Only reason IE is still leading is because it comes default with Windows and most people are either unaware of better browsers out there or can't be bothered because of lack of compatibility Opera offers.

Of course I support FF, because I hate IE and FF is the only browser I can use for most tasks with the convenience of "Opera-like" features. I'm not the only one who feels that way. It's a pity because Opera should be in its place. You think whatever you want to mate, I'm not branding you an Opera evangelist because you are so reluctant to accept the reality of Opera's situation.

[Hatebreed]

Originally Posted by reverse_swing
Well from my personal experience I can tell you that now a days most of the R&D companies and universities use this for information tracking. This is very common now. And yes this is an application for average users as well. Right now I am reading one document in my local network edited by one of my colleagues who is an Analogue Engineer and this guy doesn't give a damn about web programming . After your graduation when you have some real time work experience then you will find many such average users in your life.

Again, company employees or students are not average users. Mediawiki on its own is a standard software package which doesn't use any tools/technology that isn't supported by most browsers. Though developers who use it may wish to modify it to offer their users more functionality, that's where it gets complicated because there is a likelihood it will break down on Opera.

Since you brought up students, there is a more popular and appropriate software package than MediaWiki. It's called Blackboard, you may have heard of it. It's specifically developed for and used by many universities/colleges and even the gov't sector. It offers an e-learning portal, CMS, community system, etc. Unfortunately it's not fully supported in Opera due to rendering and compatibility issues, the same old story.

[reverse_swing]

Blackboard or Moodle are mainly used for university course management purpose whereas at this moment MediaWiki is used mainly by the university research groups or R&D people. In our case we use this for our internal documentation tracking not actually for information gathering or share our thoughts.People can use this many ways though.

[Alien]

Some programs and java applets dont run on Firefox. So there is a drawback there. While Firefox may provide better browsing experience than IE, end of the IE is works everywhere unlike Firefox.

[Nasif]

Originally Posted by adolf_hitler
Some programs and java applets dont run on Firefox. So there is a drawback there. While Firefox may provide better browsing experience than IE, end of the IE is works everywhere unlike Firefox.

In terms of program, do you mean ActiveX? There is no reason for FireFox to support ActiveX.

Java applets aren't run by FireFox, all applets invoke the Java runtime engine (runtime environment). If a Java applet isn't working that could mean the Java engine is old version on that machine.

[Rubu]

Java applets DOES run on FireFox. If in your case, it does not run, you have to go to firefox settings and have to enable java and javascript.

sometimes, you would also have to install some plug-ins to run some certain progams. In IE those come as default (and with security risk). you have to way to handle them in fire fox as you wish.

I did not use opera in 3/4 years, so I can't comment on it. Other than that, I too was reluctant in switching from IE to FF, but once I did it, I never looked back.

[Hatebreed]

Originally Posted by reverse_swing
Blackboard or Moodle are mainly used for university course management purpose whereas at this moment MediaWiki is used mainly by the university research groups or R&D people. In our case we use this for our internal documentation tracking not actually for information gathering or share our thoughts.People can use this many ways though.

Well for basic information storage using Wiki shouldn't require any advanced RTE or modification to the software. All you need to do is install it on your server as it is with some minor configuration.

R&D people or Uni research groups may not have or require programming knowledge to use the application, but they still don't fall into average users category. MediaWiki is used increasingly by professionals, namely developers who want to keep documentation of their programs.

My point it how the application itself can be improved and used for other than how it is provided in its standard open-source form. That's when developers are restricted due to browser incompatibility, which applies to any web-based application using current technology, whatever its target end-users.

[Alien]

I noticed that in Firefox it doenst highlight the links clicked, unlike explorer.

[Spitfire_x86]

Originally Posted by adolf_hitler
I noticed that in Firefox it doenst highlight the links clicked, unlike explorer.

Yes, it does. See here

[Hatebreed]

Originally Posted by adolf_hitler
I noticed that in Firefox it doenst highlight the links clicked, unlike explorer.

It does, as SF's screenshot suggests. If you don't see a different colour for a visited link, it's most likely due to the stylesheet of that particular web page.