Finally iceman falls From the heavens but not without some pride

[dolcevita]

With kkr shakib is playing with a good team , now he will shine

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[One World]

Shakib is a county star too. Watta Boy!

[Shakil_TX]

Originally Posted by Isnaad
Shakib has grown a bit of arrogance and self-centeredness now. But I hope it soon goes away. He deserves to get hyped!

Posted via BC Mobile Edition (Opera Mobile)

Yes Shakib is a little arrogant and honestly speaking I like that touch of arrogance in him as long he is not going overboard (which I don't think he has).

Self Centered? I disagree. I have not seen anything in him that would prove that he is self centered or selfish or not a team player. Love him or hate him, in my opinion he is the best BD captain we have had so far in our cricketing history.

[bd fan]

shakib bowled well today for KKR, he bowled 4 overs with the wickets of Shane Watson, bowled and also the wicket of sum indian by a catch off Kallis. His econ was 7.25

[AhmedN]

Congrats..the Iceman for being number One in the world for such a long time.Hope, soon you will bounce back to number one.

[AhmedN]

we

Originally Posted by magic boy
Watson gets more advantages from his team mates (a good catch of his ball,a good 4 saving fielding, good partner while batting and what not) Shakib never gets these extra support from his 9 ranked team. this is like meritorious son of rich family vs brilliant son of average family. Moreover Shakib has burden of captaincy along with political conflict in BCB.Considering these facts he is a real hero beyond silly ranking. a true WELL-rounder.So Shakib is much better than Watto.period

Well said. totally agree.

[Crisis]

He will be back to top spot soon. Wish him the best

[shakibrulz]

Originally Posted by magic boy
Watson gets more advantages from his team mates (a good catch of his ball,a good 4 saving fielding, good partner while batting and what not) Shakib never gets these extra support from his 9 ranked team. this is like meritorious son of rich family vs brilliant son of average family. Moreover Shakib has burden of captaincy along with political conflict in BCB.Considering these facts he is a real hero beyond silly ranking. a true WELL-rounder.So Shakib is much better than Watto.period

Haha I wouldn't say much better, but yeah those things are true.

[Tigers_eye]

Originally Posted by LBW103
SAH has been deteriorating for quite a while now. His bowling has been out of sorts and his batting has been dropping away. Tamim has been the same for the past 12 months.

How long is 'quite a while' for you? 6 months?
....

Originally Posted by LBW103
SAH is somewhat lucky that we are not in an era with the likes of Botham, Hadlee, Kapil Dev and Imran Khan, who were TRUE world class players all around at the same time.

I hope you have actually seen them play especially Botham.
Here is your "Big mouth Botham": ODIs: 106 innings, 15 notouts Averaging Ashraful (true; 23 average with the bat with that many notouts), ZERO hundred.
In test, he has won few matches (one ashes match comes to my mind) but so did many. Certainly Shakib is as good as a match winner as Botham if not better. Give Shakib a Bob Willis and see what he can do in test day-in day-out. He wouldn't even need a Boycott, Alan Knott, Gower-Gooch etc.

All of the players mentioned came in to a team which already had an identity in International arena. Shakib came into a team with players who averaged 20s. With some exceptions, all cricket players learn from their established senior players on how to go about doing this business. Shakib looked up to a captain who pitch mends while a live ball is being fielded. Senior players who themselves didn't know the basics. And you compare Shakib with Botham?
+++
Yes, we don't have the Imrans' and Kapils' or the Hadlees' now. However, we certainly have Kallis, Fridi, Watson, Vettori, Collingwood, Pathans, Razzaq etc. In their own rights they are part of cricketing history as well. I wonder what took them so long to dethron Shakib? Only one achieved that I might add, with a once in a lifetime innings.
+++
Shakib's achievement may not be matched by another Bangladeshi for a long long time.

[Sohel]

He'll regain that spot in no time InshAllah.

[Avik]

iceman will rise again.

[LBW103]

Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
How long is 'quite a while' for you? 6 months?
....

I hope you have actually seen them play especially Botham.
Here is your "Big mouth Botham": ODIs: 106 innings, 15 notouts Averaging Ashraful (true; 23 average with the bat with that many notouts), ZERO hundred.
In test, he has won few matches (one ashes match comes to my mind) but so did many. Certainly Shakib is as good as a match winner as Botham if not better. Give Shakib a Bob Willis and see what he can do in test day-in day-out. He wouldn't even need a Boycott, Alan Knott, Gower-Gooch etc.

All of the players mentioned came in to a team which already had an identity in International arena. Shakib came into a team with players who averaged 20s. With some exceptions, all cricket players learn from their established senior players on how to go about doing this business. Shakib looked up to a captain who pitch mends while a live ball is being fielded. Senior players who themselves didn't know the basics. And you compare Shakib with Botham?
+++
Yes, we don't have the Imrans' and Kapils' or the Hadlees' now. However, we certainly have Kallis, Fridi, Watson, Vettori, Collingwood, Pathans, Razzaq etc. In their own rights they are part of cricketing history as well. I wonder what took them so long to dethron Shakib? Only one achieved that I might add, with a once in a lifetime innings.
+++
Shakib's achievement may not be matched by another Bangladeshi for a long long time.

I think it's sweet you blindly think SAH can compare to many of the greats: http://www.espncricinfo.com/allround...html?genre=202 listed here (not my list but voted by cricket experts and players...

Botham, as you specifically asked, is discussed here to help you: http://www.espncricinfo.com/allround...ry/270522.html

The problem in life is we can only judge what we see in front of us. Some of us are more fortunate enough to have seen videos and listened to experts discuss what makes a GREAT player. Kallis is probably the best of the bunch and 5 years ago was at his peak for sure. But it is not a spectacular time for amazing all rounders in world history at the moment. Some very good players yes, but not comparable to previous generations.

I feel that players are too easily given LEGENDARY status when they can only be as good as those around them or be slightly better to get ranked higher.

SAH has a very, very long way to go to make a list like that I'm afraid.

[shakibrulz]

Originally Posted by LBW103
SAH is somewhat lucky that we are not in an era with the likes of Botham, Hadlee, Kapil Dev and Imran Khan, who were TRUE world class players all around at the same time.

BS. Shakib had to face tough competition from Afridi, Watto, Kallis, Vettori. That's a handful. Especially Watto and Kallis are truly world class and probably the best players currently for their respective nations.

[LBW103]

Originally Posted by shakibrulz
BS. Shakib had to face tough competition from Afridi, Watto, Kallis, Vettori. That's a handful. Especially Watto and Kallis are truly world class and probably the best players currently for their respective nations.

Check it out:http://www.espncricinfo.com/allround...html?genre=202

Botham, Hadlee, Kapil and Imran in the list..not my BS therefore... btw Didn't see SAH in the list....

[Night_wolf]

Originally Posted by LBW103
Check it out:http://www.espncricinfo.com/allround...html?genre=202

Botham, Hadlee, Kapil and Imran in the list..not my BS therefore... btw Didn't see SAH in the list....

u can not expect to see shakib there just after 4 years in int cricket...guys on that list are all retired except kallis and he is playing for more than 10 years...its a unfair comparison tbh

[Navo]

@Tigers_eye: I think its important to remember that while statistics are indicative of a player's prowess, they still need to be looked at in context. Botham's ODI Batting Average looks poor but it's important to remember that he largely played as a lower-order (pos. 6-7) slogger in England's ODI team. That much is clear from his 79+ SR at a time which had thinner bats, larger boundaries and no Twenty20. Even if the England team of the 80s wasn't the greatest, it certainly had some very good batsman and did not call upon Botham to bat out a majority of the overs. The fact that Shakib has had to do this on a number of occasions has meant that he has had more opportunities to score centuries and half-centuries (and full credit to him for making the most of many of those opportunities!) To illustrate my point, look at the performance of this season's KKR team. They are a balanced outfit with competent professionals and have done well so far (and hopefully will continue to do so, fingers crossed!). They haven't required Shakib's batting services as of yet but from the look of things, if they ever need to, it will be in the last quarter of their innings which is a slog fest. He would have to score runs very quickly and more often than not he will get out on a relatively low score. His average may look poor, (even in T20 terms) but as it is the SR that matters, it would not necessarily indicate his lack of capability with the bat.

Regarding being an All-rounder in general, as an All-rounder in Tests, Botham was remarkable, as 14 Test Centuries and 27 5wicket hauls attest to. As you know, the figures of Sobers, Imran, Kapil and Hadlee are just as/more impressive.That will require some effort and skill for Shakib to catch up to. And I wonder if he will ever get the opportunity to attain such a number of runs or wickets, given the decreasing number of Tests we seem to be playing each year. Shakib has now bowled in 34 innings and taken more than 4wi, 10 times. Will he ever get to play the other 134 innings that separate him from Botham and thereby attempt to surpass his record of 48 4wi+ innings? Probably not.

As the G8's poor cousins, we're stuck in a vicious cycle of few international-quality first class/test matches and poor overall match performance. Which is not only unfortunate for the country but is also unfortunate for our shining lights, Tamim and Shakib.

When they retire people will not look at how ICC rankings changed over the years but at bare statistics. If they play fewer matches, their runs or wickets aggregates will never match those of the best players. Also, the average spectator will not consider how many catches were dropped off Shakib's bowling or how sloppy the ground-fielding was but rather how many wickets he took or how many runs he scored in comparison to the players of the G8. If his side remains mediocre, the vivid images of arm balls shattering stumps and searing square cuts will blur and overtime people will only remember the depressing win-loss column. While the all rounders of moderately successful teams may secure legendary status with sensational performances in one series, Shakib would have to replicate Hadlee and win matches for Bangladesh single-handedly for over a decade, if he wants to enter the 'Allrounders Pantheon'.

@LBW103: I wouldn't personally use that list as an authority for this discussion. While the Cricinfo debate is about the 'greatest allrounder', they obviously mean greatest allrounder 'till date'. The Selection Panel have deliberately nominated players who have long since retired and thus have the benefit of a sweeping view of the players' entire careers; the peaks and the troughs and their impact on the game as a whole. (The exception, of course, is Kallis who is still playing but as we know he has broken enough international batting records and been consistent enough with the ball to merit discussion. Importantly, he has also been around as an allrounder for close to a decade and a half now. In contrast to someone like Vettori, who has also been around for ages but has only become an allrounder in recent years.) Shakib's international career is little more than 4 years old and we still can't be certain about how his overall career will pan out - so how can we compare him with someone whose career is/largely is over? It will be interesting to see what the nominations are in 20 years time when such a question is considered again, long after Shakib, Vettori and Watson have retired. Given that they take into consideration unquantifiable parameters like 'impact' on the game and memorable victories/achievements, I have a feeling he will be in good stead.

Sorry for the long post. Procrastination is fun

[AhmedN]

Well, he did not fall from the heaven, he just changed the heaven by one step or two after dominating the world more than 24 months.

[napoleonIV]

Originally Posted by Navo
@Tigers_eye: I think its important to remember that while statistics are indicative of a player's prowess, they still need to be looked at in context. Botham's ODI Batting Average look poor but it's important to remember that he largely played as a lower-order (pos. 6-7) slogger in England's ODI team. That much is clear from his 79+ SR at a time which had thinner bats, larger boundaries and no Twenty20. Even if the England team of the 80s wasn't the greatest, it certainly had some very good batsman and did not call upon Botham to bat out a majority of the overs. The fact that Shakib has had to do this on a number of occasions has meant that he has had more opportunities to score centuries and half-centuries (and full credit to him for making the most of many of those opportunities!) To illustrate my point, look at the performance of this season's KKR team. They are a balanced outfit with competent professionals and have done well so far (and hopefully will continue to do so, fingers crossed!). They haven't required Shakib's batting services as of yet but from the look of things, if they ever need to, it will be in the last quarter of their innings which is a slog fest. He would have to score runs very quickly and more often than not he will get out on a relatively low score. His average may look poor, (even in T20 terms) but as it is the SR that matters, it would not necessarily indicate his lack of capability with the bat.

Regarding being an All-rounder in general, as an All-rounder in Tests, Botham was remarkable, as 14 Test Centuries and 27 5wicket hauls attest to. As you know, the figures of Sobers, Imran, Kapil and Hadlee are just as/more impressive.That will require some effort and skill for Shakib to catch up to. And I wonder if he will ever get the opportunity to attain such a number of runs or wickets, given the decreasing number of Tests we seem to be playing each year. Shakib has now bowled in 34 innings and taken more than 4wi, 10 times. Will he ever get to play the other 134 innings that separate him from Botham and thereby attempt to surpass his record of 48 4wi+ innings? Probably not.

As the G8's poor cousins, we're stuck in a vicious cycle of few international-quality first class/test matches and poor overall match performance. Which is not only unfortunate for the country but is also unfortunate for our shining lights, Tamim and Shakib.

When they retire people will not look at how ICC rankings changed over the years but at bare statistics. If they play fewer matches, their runs or wickets aggregates will never match those of the best players. Also, the average spectator will not consider how many catches were dropped off Shakib's bowling or how sloppy the ground-fielding was but rather how many wickets he took or how many runs he scored in comparison to the players of the G8. If his side remains mediocre, the vivid images of arm balls shattering stumps and searing square cuts blur and overtime people only remember the depressing win-loss column. While the all rounders of moderately successful teams may secure legendary status with sensational performances in one series, Shakib would have to replicate Hadlee and win matches for Bangladesh single-handedly for over a decade, if he wants to enter the 'Allrounders Pantheon'.

@LBW103: I wouldn't personally use that list as an authority for this discussion. While the Cricinfo debate is about the 'greatest allrounder', they obviously mean greatest allrounder 'till date'. The Selection Panel have deliberately nominated players who have long since retired and thus have the benefit of a sweeping view of the players' entire careers; the peaks and the troughs and their impact on the game as a whole. (The exception, of course, is Kallis who is still playing but as we know he has broken enough international batting records and been consistent enough with the ball to merit discussion. Importantly, he has also been around as an allrounder for close to a decade and a half now. In contrast to someone like Vettori, who has also been around for ages but has only become an allrounder in recent years.) Shakib's international career is little more than 4 years old and we still can't be certain about how his overall career will pan out - so how can we compare him with someone whose career is/largely is over? It will be interesting to see what the nominations are in 20 years time when such a question is considered again, long after Shakib, Vettori and Watson have retired. Given that they take into consideration unquantifiable parameters like 'impact' on the game and memorable victories/achievements, I have a feeling he will be in good stead.

Sorry for the long post. Procrastination is fun

Excellent post. I do not want to sound flattering, but this is certainly one of the most well-written posts I have come across in BC - and I have been in BC for quite a few years now.

[LBW103]

Originally Posted by Night_wolf
u can not expect to see shakib there just after 4 years in int cricket...guys on that list are all retired except kallis and he is playing for more than 10 years...its a unfair comparison tbh

I was not attempting to compare SAH to Botham to be fair.."Tigers Eye" did that here in his previous post: Certainly Shakib is as good as a match winner as Botham if not better and I could not let such drivel go past without making a point that this view is based on one eyed emotion and not fact.

SAH may well turn out to be someone deserving of being compared to the all-time greats. Or he might not. He is clearly a talented cricketer. My view was that he is the top of what is currently around and for that he is doing very well. However, the quality of 'world-class' all rounders is not what it was and 4 of the greatest names mentioned played at the SAME TIME. This was the point I made. "tigers eye" didn't agree and that is his opinion, but the facts bear out a quite different story and even at 23 years of age Botham, Kapil, Imran and Hadlee had far superior all round stats than SAH, again the point I was making.

It's always extremely hard to compare eras. Many feel the 1980s-90s were the best ever for skill, and this of course without South Africa even allowed to play Test cricket.

We all hope SAH can even be mentioned in the same breath as the legends of the game when his time comes to eventually hang up his boots.

[Banglaguy]

Shakib will some back strong inshallah, he has it in him. A stint at IPL and a stay at the English county will do him wonders.

[M.H.Rubel]

According to Bangladesh protidin BCB is searching a new captain.In reality i found none are available to replace Shakib except SN.Interesting thing is some member of BCB is seriously thinking about SN.

[AsifTheManRahman]

Originally Posted by M.H.Rubel
According to Bangladesh protidin BCB is searching a new captain.In reality i found none are available to replace Shakib except SN.Interesting thing is some member of BCB is seriously thinking about SN.

Might just be speculation, but I don't like it. Shakib should be captain for now and Tamim should never have been appointed VC. Nafees needs to cement his place in the team first and can be considered for VC when he does. He has it in him to lead the side one day, but that day isn't today.

[Tiger444]

Originally Posted by AsifTheManRahman
Might just be speculation, but I don't like it. Shakib should be captain for now and Tamim should never have been appointed VC. Nafees needs to cement his place in the team first and can be considered for VC when he does. He has it in him to lead the side one day, but that day isn't today.

To be honest though who else could be the VC besides Tamim? I used to say Mushy but he still has to cement his place. He's been a regular true but he's been a regular mainly because the other keepers haven't stepped up. It hasn't been because of Mushy solely performing. Imrul could be a candidate but he's still inexperienced and the rest haven't stamped their spots yet. So we have to go with Shakib at captain and Tamim as VC until the others start to cement their places.

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[simon]

only Mushy can be the next captain.

[betaar]

Originally Posted by simon
only Mushy can be the next captain.

He certainly is a captain material with all the tactical attributes but not so much with his performance. Being a captain, working behind the wickets can take a great toll on ones ability to carry out his own duties, and we all know how inconsistent he is with that.