150 million dollar aid from India

[fab]

With all due respect to Indians, who are not entirely responsible for their government's unethical conduct, we should note that this type of dada-giri mentality is NOT limited to India alone. Common examples are of course the US, China, heck even Australia with regards to its blatant theft of East Timor's natural resources. There is no shortage of countries that would, given the opportunity, gladly and happily amass wealth and benefit at the expense of a poorer country. Not that this makes dada-giri-ing excusable in any form..

Indians should understand that we do not 'hate' Indians, rather we are wary and even weary of their government's intentions and offers as we have previously been burnt on numerous ocassions. This is the reason why, hisidhu85143, you will find many proud Bangladeshis, myself included, who will not prostrate themselves at the thought of receiving such a large amount of aid from the Indian government (or ANY government for that matter).

Furthermore to dispel this myth of Bangladesh being a land of Indian haters; if this were true, why in God's name are Bollywood movies so popular in Bangladesh?

[chinaman]

I think the subject of this thread "To all the Indian haters?" is inappropriate. The post contains a public news which is used to make suggestions that the aid receipient do not have a right to or should not "hate" the donor. It also inappropritely singles out an imazinary group called "Indian haters".

India and Bangladesh have many unresolved issues, spaning from border to govt., sports to economy between them. But there is no such group exists by the name of "Indian haters". There are many Indians do not like certain things about Bangladesh. Similarly there are many Bangladeshis that do not like certain things about India.

I like to give hisidhu85143, the author of the first post a chance to clarify and justfy the subject. In the absence of a clarification, I'll change the subject in a day or two. Thank you.

[sageX]

This hate theory originated during the time of Mohadav. Accordingly

Mohadev came to bangal to spread his wisdom and knwoledge. He had high admiration of bangalee culture as it was reach in literature. Things did not work out good between Mohadev and Bangali. There was an incident were dogs were unleashed on him and he had a scare for his life. After all these Mohadev could not take it any more. So he retrieved into his home territory with great animosity about bangal people.
He started enjoying his followers in his home town who could truly understand the value of Mohadev. He preached his followers about bangalies as follows:
1) Barabrians
2) Who speak in the language of bird.

I just wonder that does Indian still believe in Mohadav or what? History! what it has to do with anything.

[rafiq]

I would also guess that the bulk of the money spent to do whatever infrastructure upgrades will actually go to Indian companies.

[Tintin]

I just wonder that does Indian still believe in Mohadav or what?

Never heard of him !

[PoorFan]

We should not comment on this subject, since the title itself questionable.

[sageX]

Originally posted by Tintin

Never heard of him !

Maybe thats why you are our favorite Tintin.

[Edited on 6-8-2004 by sageX]

[billah]

Originally posted by rafiq
my 2 cents:

no country offers 150 big ones in assistance unless there is something in it for themselves. duh.

for those people thinking the givernment of bangladesh does NOT preach holy war, of course it doesn't. but what exactly is the campaign againist ahmadiya muslims all about? what about the takeover of the erstwhile centrist government by the far right? oh, I forget I am preaching to the choir... get a grip on reality, friends.

Rafiq bhai: For the records, there is not anti Ahmadiya campaign endorsed by any government or government affiliated parties in Bangladesh. In comparison, Pakistan recognizes them as non-muslim by state policy. In India, BJP endorsed and supported many controversial pubic projects and policies that go directly against the rights of the minorities.

On your second point there, any position gained by these "right" people is a failure of foresight by both of the major rival political parties. It is however, by no means a "takeover". The so-called "Centrist" government has given a few seats to the so-called right in Bangladesh as part of a power deal. Please keep in mind, I'm not at all warm & fuzzy with the very idea, but I can't consider it a "takeover'.

[rafiq]

Billah, you may not be very familiar with the ahmadiya issue in Bangladesh. Please visit dirshtipat.org to read press reports and other articles if you want. One of the 4 parties in the 4 party alliance is directly involved in calling for a declaration of Ahmadiyas as non-Muslims and a ban on their mosques, religious texts etc. The GOB at first resisted this effort, but later succumbed to it by ordering the ban on Ahmadiya texts on the grounds that they may offend religious sentiment.

I don't care about nuances in our interpretation of who is in power where and how they got there. Whether these parties are left right or center we can argue about all day. But what is happening to the Ahmadiyas is well-orchestrated and it isn't the first time either. Please check the facts.

[cricketfan]

Remarks on certain points made in this thread

1. The title of the thread should really be different to reflect the topic, something like " India offers to help upgrade BD Railways" or something similar.

2. Never heard of the person called "Mohadev". I have not read or heard about him. I do not think there will be too many people who may be aware of him in India. Must be a mythical person of folklore in BD but certainly not in India.

3. Billah comments on sidestepping the issue: The issue was Railway assistance and I considered myself qualified enough to offer my remarks. Other issues that he discusses are not pertinent to the topic. I can offer the view from the other side's point of view on his observatons but that will be inappropriate for this site.

4. Apprehensions about Indian intentions: Gaining BD market could be a reason behind Indian offer, but trying to improve relations with BD could also be a more compelling reason. Or is it too far fetched for many people to believe ?

5. As pointed out by some moderators, one needs to try and see the point of view of the others to gain a better understanding. Some of the posts are indeed quite balanced in this thread and will help in better mutual understanding.

6. As mentioned above, some of the points raised which are off topic can be addressed from the point of view of the other side, but it may be inappropriate for this forum because it may go contrary to the policy of this site. However , it may be appropriate to discuss them via U2U or e mail if one is interested to see the point of view of the other side.

[Edited on 7-8-2004 by cricketfan]

[billah]

Remarks on cricketfan's post here:

On your point 3: The issue here, no matter how much you want to fudge it, was not railway assistance. It was, as the title says, to provoke feedbacks from so-called "India Haters". And yes, you definitely sidestepped the partinent issues here.

On your point 4: India dishing out 150 millon to improve relationship with Bangladesh is not only "Too far fetched", it is beyond belief. In fact, so much so, that, it is laughable. A normal first reaction is a loud, belly laugh for most of us.

On point 5 & 6: This is indeed a public forum, titled "Forget Cricket". I can see how you would rather not discuss some of these for obvious reasons, however, I see no harm in pointing out facts that are already out there for all to see. No reason to hide behind u2u on these, specially for a Bangladeshi on a Bangladesh related site. If you are so adherent to "Policies" here, may be you should think before starting your response with personal attacks.

Thankies.

[billah]

Originally posted by rafiq
Billah, you may not be very familiar with the ahmadiya issue in Bangladesh. Please visit dirshtipat.org to read press reports and other articles if you want. One of the 4 parties in the 4 party alliance is directly involved in calling for a declaration of Ahmadiyas as non-Muslims and a ban on their mosques, religious texts etc. The GOB at first resisted this effort, but later succumbed to it by ordering the ban on Ahmadiya texts on the grounds that they may offend religious sentiment.

I don't care about nuances in our interpretation of who is in power where and how they got there. Whether these parties are left right or center we can argue about all day. But what is happening to the Ahmadiyas is well-orchestrated and it isn't the first time either. Please check the facts.

Rafiq bhai: You are right, I am not "very familiar with Ahmadiya issue in Bangladesh". However, I know for a fact that a number of pronounced enemies of Bangladesh have involved themselves with the dristipat campaign. These people have made a career in running anti-Bangladesh campaign, with finacial backing from Indian sources. They have mixed themselves well by hiding behind these apparently well-intended orgs. I know which "one of the four party" you are talking about, it is the "usual suspect". See I have real problem seeing any of these people holding any public positions. Although, our constitution does have protection for religious groups against texts that may be offensive to them.

It is indeed unbelievable when I see these sworn enemies of Bangladesh, most of which are of Indian origin, gather the International media in New York and threaten to have India attack Bangladesh! A number of these devils are with drishtipat! Why?

[rafiq]

Billah, what in the world are you talking about? The Bangladesh human rights focused group, Drishtipat, does not have an "Ahmadiya campaign" going on that I am aware of, and I am on it's Board of Directors. The organization highlights human rights abuses in Bangladesh, and started doing this during the last AL rule and continued on to the current BNP regime.

The Ahmadiya issue in Bangladesh is gross human rights abuse so there was a petition to GOB that many DP members signed and we cover the latest news in our website and publications. There is no campaign as such, rather the objective is to let Bangladeshis know about the Ahmadiya issue and raise awareness.

You have made some very preposterous statements here. Perhaps you are thinking of some other organization. Unless you can back up your statements with facts, don't make them. Your opinion on Ahmadiya persecution may not be the same as mine, and that's OK. But please don't slander people whom you probably don't know and when you have no idea what you are talking about.

btw the party that led the anti-Ahmadiya campaign was not Jamaat but one of the other smaller Islamic parties, so perhaps you were not aware of that either based on your quote. no matter.

To everyone else, sorry that we digressed but the original topic was rather boring. This tangent has now turned into slander so I'll stop unless billah wants to dig a bigger hole for himself.

cheers.

[coolheels]

India making dams that are creating havoc in India,India exporting terrorism, India on the verge of breakup- Billah sure seems to know things about India that no one else has ever heard of. From a country that was dependent on foreign aids for its survival till 20 years back, India has stopped taking loans and and is now giving aids to other third world countries. 150 millions is a huge amount considering that the annual foreign direct investment that BD attracts is a meagre 350 million dollars. India could not have reached the stage from an aid taker country to an aid giving country if the Indian Government's policies were as foolish as Billah thinks they were.

India gives similar aid to other neighbours such as Sri Lanka and Bhutan also as mentioned in the news items below.

India pushes for economic pact with Sri Lanka

Aid to African countries up



[Edited on 8-8-2004 by coolheels]

[billah]

Dear coolheels: "India making dams that are creating havoc in India" is a fact supported by top Indian scientists. I'm sorry, can't help if you are not well-read on the subject, in this case, it would indeed be surprising.

"India on the verge of breakup" - I never said it , you did. Typical indian style in putting words in other people's mouth.

Another fact, India is still an aid taker indeed.

"Indian Government's policies were as foolish" - I never said it, you did. Typical propaganda style. I did however said, India exports terrorism to it's neighbor, I also said that thousands of farmers in India are commiting suicide in protest of poverty and taxation as recently as today. I also said India has violent race riots regularly. All are facts. Please step up and agrue them. Don't try the eyewash with your words.

Thanks.

[billah]

Originally posted by rafiq
Billah, what in the world are you talking about? The Bangladesh human rights focused group, Drishtipat, does not have an "Ahmadiya campaign" going on that I am aware of, and I am on it's Board of Directors. The organization highlights human rights abuses in Bangladesh, and started doing this during the last AL rule and continued on to the current BNP regime.

The Ahmadiya issue in Bangladesh is gross human rights abuse so there was a petition to GOB that many DP members signed and we cover the latest news in our website and publications. There is no campaign as such, rather the objective is to let Bangladeshis know about the Ahmadiya issue and raise awareness.

You have made some very preposterous statements here. Perhaps you are thinking of some other organization. Unless you can back up your statements with facts, don't make them. Your opinion on Ahmadiya persecution may not be the same as mine, and that's OK. But please don't slander people whom you probably don't know and when you have no idea what you are talking about.

btw the party that led the anti-Ahmadiya campaign was not Jamaat but one of the other smaller Islamic parties, so perhaps you were not aware of that either based on your quote. no matter.

To everyone else, sorry that we digressed but the original topic was rather boring. This tangent has now turned into slander so I'll stop unless billah wants to dig a bigger hole for himself.

cheers.

DIGGING!

Dear Rafique bhia:

Sorry to dig up this old thread to respond to you so late. I've been busy. I may have indeed been wrong in finding Anti-Bangladeshi support to dristipat campaign.

This is what threw me off:

This pronounced anti-Bangladeshi HARMJADA, named "Shitangsu Guha". He is claiming to support dristipat on your front page:

http://www.drishtipat.org/nuke/modul...rticle&sid=106

He is sponsoring dristipat, link here, See under "Event in New York, NY":

http://www.drishtipat.org/CheyeDekho...ndraised2.html

Examples of Shitangsu's anti-bangladesh propaganda in international media:

http://desitalk.newsindia-times.com/.../hill-top.html

http://asiapeace.org/acha/06-04-2003.htm

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20030...1750-4006r.htm

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0803/243.html

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0903/5.html

http://www.weeklyholiday.net/271202/front.html

https://lists.resist.ca/pipermail/pr...er/004546.html

Shitangsu talking anti-bangladesh in New York:

http://www.queenstribune.com/anniver...bangladesh.htm

Download Shitangsu's speech, full of blatant lies against Bangladesh, a true Banglades-hater's profile:

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache...tzerland&hl=en

And as for dristipat's non-partisanship, here's Shitangsu's Awami connection:

http://www.albd.org/indemnity/related.htm

Here's ****-angsu's support for Bush's war, which is denounced by majority of the intellectuals of the civilized world:

http://mukto-mona.com/Articles/curre...pport_bush.htm

Shitangsu's organization, threatened to have India attack Bangladesh in a gathering in the UN plaza in May. You will find this report in Ittefaq, May 17, 2004. Check the link here:

http://www.ittefaq.com/ittefaq_apps/...?date=17052004


Above is just one example that made me think that anti-bangladeshis are involved with dristipat. Research on other members of dristipat have not been done. Other horizontal and vertical analysis such as:
- % of ethnicity of dristipat members, comparing to normal Bangladeshi demographic.
- % of supporters of non-bangladeshi and of Indian origin.
- % of members that are high profile campaigner in some sort of smear campaing against Bangladesh

have not been done due to time constraint.

From the outset, just checking out one name from your sponsors made me think that prominent anti-bangladeshis are involved here. I am afraid to check any further, in fear of what else I may find.
I hope you will understand. Please accept my apology for any wrong assesment of your cause or means.

Now, the question is: Are there more anti-Bangladeshis like this HARAMJADA ****-angsu involved with dristipat?
Thanks.

[rafiq]

Hi Billah:

Thanks for reminding me to look at this post. I am glad you went to the length you did here, and I actually would like to share your email with others at Drishtipat if that's OK with you. I think it is a fantastic post for many reasons, one being that Drishtipat can actually USE it to show how well-meaning intentions can sometimes lead to perceptions which are not correct. Probably a little bit of history is required here and then I will address your concern re: our sponsors and members. I will be brief as possible but if I have not addressed something major please let me know.

OK, first some history. Drishtipat (DP) was started by some "young" (always a relative word!) US-based activists who were outraged when Awami League mafia don Joynal Hazari had his henchmen beat up a brave journalist by the name of Tipu Sultan. Daily Star, Prothom Alo and others set up a fund in Dhaka and DP did a quick Internet based campaign for Tipu which raised $16,000. Tipu has never recovered fully and is forever scarred by what he went through. But he is alive and working and went on to be recognized by the CPJ (Center for Protection of Journalists).

So DP was branded as "anti-AL" by some Bangladeshis.

Fast forward to 2001 general elections in BD. After the elections, there was violence agaist Hindu and other religious minorities as they were identified witht the outgoing AL. The extent and motives were debated hotly by all. But the fact is organized violence did take place and we all read about some particularly horrifying incidences. DP was still in its early stages but with the help of many people in Dhaka such as Daily Star, etc, we confirmed what had happened in Annada Prashad and went about raising some money for about 30 families in that village. We raised about $30K through some programs, and this money has been used to rehab those people from a long term perspective such as buying land, etc.

Some Bangladeshis branded DP as "anti-BNP".

Now during this time a number of radical fundamentalist Hindu groups sought to take advantage of the unfortunate situation. HRCBM was one of them. None of these groups actually contributed a cent to help any victims, but rather they made a lot of noise. You may be referring to some of these people in your post.

So, are these people and DP one and the same thing? No they are not. The person you refer to above was never a DP member as far as I know. I read the 2 links you gave from the DP site but couldn't see his name anywhere. Did he contribute 50 bucks to the minority violence program? He may have (although I did not see his name). I know we didn't take money in the name of one or two really strange radical organizations, it is possible an individual may have donated and when Bangladeshis are sending in a check for a small amount, it really is not feasible to run a security check on them.

OK, after writing the above I went back to your links to see again if I could find a trace of this person SG (btw I don't know him and can't remember if I even knew of him back then). I see in your first link he is writing a comment to a news story that appears on our website. I invite you and all other readers here to re-read that and form (or re-form) your opinions. All he has done was post a comment asking why DP seemed to be "against" something he believed in, which was this OP conference in Toronto. DP was neither "for" or "against" it, we were printing some news. Internet browsers can come in and post comments if they want to, it does not mean they are running DP or are our sponsors. Mr. SG writes he supported our effort [to raise money]. I won't hold that against him, as I supported it as well. But what else he did or does is his business and really has nothing to do with DP since he is not a member/sponsor/organizer.

Btw just above his comment I read this disclaimer on the DP site:

"The comments are owned by the poster. We aren't responsible for their content."

I hope you will agree with the logic of what I just said. I trust your research on Mr. SG's positions are correct and did not read his other posts elsewhere, I was only concerned with your perception that somehow he is representing DP. He is not and never has.

Anyway, fast forward to the current. We remain a group of people working to make a difference in a small way in one area - rights abuses and violations. It is an extremely difficult and dangerous space. It means there will be a lot of misunderstandings and misperceptions. That goes with the territory. But there are many Bangladeshis who don't subscribe to race, religion and politics-based fundamentalism that is displayed by many in our home country from time to time. We continue to attract and grow with those people.

Now I remember spending some time in those days answering queries such as this (what are our intentions, etc), but haven't had to in a long time. We believe earlier misperceptions, if any, have been laid to rest because we are transparent and people can see the work and results for what it is.

I hope I have addressed your concerns. You can go to the DP site and read the "About Us" page for other Board Members - it will possibly save you a lot of time in research. Thanks again, Rafiq

Edited on, August 18, 2004, 11:33 PM GMT, by rafiq.

Edited on, August 18, 2004, 11:34 PM GMT, by rafiq.
Reason: typos

[billah]

Originally posted by rafiq
I actually would like to share your email with others at Drishtipat if that's OK with you.

[/i]

Please go ahead. I will contact you later on. Thanks.