Consistent failures from positions of strength, where lies the problem?

[DawnPatrol]

I believe that the BD team has improved significantly, and said as much on this forum. However, the trends outlined by the OP do show a seeming inability to convert.

The best long term solution is to improve your infrastructure, management and staff, but if that is unviable, then I suggest that BD player start playing outside the country regularly. Like the Windians honed their skills for several years on the country circuit.

While that specific opportunity is unlikely for BD players today, they should try playing in the domestic circuits of countries such as India, individually or even as a team.

I guarantee you that any player who spends a year in a Mumbai side will come back a changed man; simply speaking those boys don't like giving up their wickets. It's a hard school, is Mumbai cricket.

If individual players for domestic teams is unviable, I suggest BD tries to get its A team, or even some players of the national team, to play games in India and elsewhere. Play club cricket in Australia.

You can give all the training in the wold, but ultimately the real experience is hands on. At this stage, BD has everything but the confidence and self belief. That can best come in the company of players who play in countries that are higher rankled on the ICC tables. BD needs experience; unfortunately Test calendars being what they are, that is going to be hard at the international level. So play domestic. Or try to.

[DawnPatrol]

Then there's another aspect of it, which I have thought long and hard over, but it's somewhat controversial. My apologies if it offends anyone, but it has to be raised.

The question is - is there a missing link in the self belief of many, if not most, BD players, because they are from BD?

National self confidence is, I believe, a critical component of the makeup of individuals, and especially so for a team. Do these players believe that as BD citizens, they are just not 'good enough'?

All developing countries struggle with it; In India this was a subliminal belief until the 90s (IMO) until Ganguly's captaincy turned it around (Ranatunga did the same for SL back in the day). Of course, on a general basis, our expanding economy, increased global presence meant that Indians were more confident, more willing to believe in themselves. This generation is totally different from the players of the 80s.

BD citizens who are working abroad can perhaps identify with this? That initial feeling of being awed, overwhelmed, when first you get to a western nation, then the slow realization that you are as good as anyone and perhaps better than most.

So hard question - do BD player believe that they are inferior because they are from BD? And if that is even partly true, is it an issue worth fixing? If so, how can it be fixed?

[One World]

Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
We can't do the fundamental things!! Catching and rotating strike!! You don't have to be technically sound or anything. A simple concentration will allow a player to be a hero. Oram didn't hit the innings had Mushi removed Broom. Same for the T20, tests. Those kill the game at this level. The limited opportunity we have, we must capitalize.

Yes, just another precious catch added to the list of so many humiliations.

[BANFAN]

Replacing and trying with newcomers, isnt the solution. None will come and do miracles, but inthe process we will lose the players who has gained experience and has the potential to do good in future. I think that the coaching staff needs to be changed to come up with better ideas to resolve individual player's problems and inject better motivation into the current players.

Changing these three (As Miraz Suggested) doesnt solve the problem of Shakib's batting, Mushi's batting and keeping, catching in the field etc. Need coaching staff to resolve the issues with each player individually.

We don't have replacement of current lot, if there are 1/2 very promising players in the domestic circuit, we need them to come to the team not as replacements but as additional players. Our bench strength is almost 0.

[betaar]

I just don’t understand why it is so hard to accept that we just don’t have what it takes? Why do we think we will win against the big 8 with the limited skill and talent we have?

Let’s look back……………..

The team that played first ever test comprised mostly with the old hogs of previous generations that were used to taking credit participating in international matches. But just because of the test status all of sudden we started thinking these guys had the necessary experience to succeed. But we suffered through next 3-4 years including a horrible WC. Knee jerk reaction from management meant the players from previous generation had to leave and new breed of players such as Ash, Mash evolved under the guidance of Bahsar and Rafique. Then we started to believe that we had a good mixture of talent and experience to take us through…….along came WC 2007 and everyone thought Bangladesh had arrived. But we were again horrified by what followed and again came the realization that may be the mix of experience and the new found basket of talent was not quite working out, so let’s focus on building a team for the future and take all the old weeds, such as Bashar and Rafiq out. It worked for a short while, albeit against other minnows, but then again came the realization as the so called talent was not taking us anywhere.

Ever since gaining test status we were taught to believe that BD has a team full of potential. Really?? I just believe that BD cricket is a business of selling hope to a hopeless nation full of suckers who love to hope against hope and everyone one of is getting succumbed in buying that product which end the end only gives us agony.

In the early or mid 90s, Bangladesh economy was labeled as one of the most potential emerging market along with India, look where we are……………….the same old bottomless basket and unfortunately our cricket is not any different. In a success starved nation of ours we thought we’d take solace in the success of cricket that was never there to succeed…..it’s time we realize that and align our expectation accordingly.

[mali007]

Bring back NAFIS IQBAL ------ will flourish by TAMIM'S inspiration. Also need to reshuffle batting order. Mahmudullah should bat at no. 4.

[AsifTheManRahman]

Originally Posted by betaar
I just don’t understand why it is so hard to accept that we just don’t have what it takes? Why do we think we will win against the big 8 with the limited skill and talent we have?

Let’s look back……………..

The team that played first ever test comprised mostly with the old hogs of previous generations that were used to taking credit participating in international matches. But just because of the test status all of sudden we started thinking these guys had the necessary experience to succeed. But we suffered through next 3-4 years including a horrible WC. Knee jerk reaction from management meant the players from previous generation had to leave and new breed of players such as Ash, Mash evolved under the guidance of Bahsar and Rafique. Then we started to believe that we had a good mixture of talent and experience to take us through…….along came WC 2007 and everyone thought Bangladesh had arrived. But we were again horrified by what followed and again came the realization that may be the mix of experience and the new found basket of talent was not quite working out, so let’s focus on building a team for the future and take all the old weeds, such as Bashar and Rafiq out. It worked for a short while, albeit against other minnows, but then again came the realization as the so called talent was not taking us anywhere.

Ever since gaining test status we were taught to believe that BD has a team full of potential. Really?? I just believe that BD cricket is a business of selling hope to a hopeless nation full of suckers who love to hope against hope and everyone one of is getting succumbed in buying that product which end the end only gives us agony.

In the early or mid 90s, Bangladesh economy was labeled as one of the most potential emerging market along with India, look where we are……………….the same old bottomless basket and unfortunately our cricket is not any different. In a success starved nation of ours we thought we’d take solace in the success of cricket that was never there to succeed…..it’s time we realize that and align our expectation accordingly.

Betaar, I think you have nailed it. We have to accept that we're not there yet and to expect our players to push bigger sides on a regular basis is unrealistic. I don't think Bangladesh cricket has no hope - when you beat a dead horse (not the idiomatic dead horse) a zillion times it is bound to come alive some day - but I think all it boils down to is greater competition at home. Until that happens, the results will be similar to what we're seeing now. Take Ingram as an example - his FC career is as long as Ashraful's Test career in terms of time and almost in terms of quality of opposition. For a guy like him, international cricket is not much more than the kind of cricket that he's played all his life with a different label.

So as a fan of the Bangladesh cricket team, I guess we don't have much of an option other than hoping the cricket board does what it takes to get domestic cricket up to par, being patient and letting time take care of things.

[Raynman]

Here's the reality. We are not as good as the other Test playing nations out there. But if a few things go our way we can get the odd result.

However, that shouldn't prevent us from where we want to go. Putting aside the Infrastructure, Selector, BCB issues (which are important but require mass overhaul and time to fix) lets focus on the quick fixes at hand:

1. Expectations : Are the one of victories exceptable or do we want consistancy in the wins and the occasional series wins?

2. Coaching : I think Siddons is looking to improve the team by increments that are not in line with the improvements by other test nations or even the associates. We are delighted to have 250 scores on 300+ pitches. We get lost in the fact that a lot of the times, items we use as benchmarks of improvements were achieved because they simply weren't a threat or concern to our opponents. Based on press conferences and interviews, it always seems like our plan is to focus on individual performance and not improvements as a team. When was the last time you saw BD focus on a specific player of the opposing team based on their strength or weakness?

3. Not using players selected to their strengths: After the XI is selected the players seemed to be put into situations regardless of if they are the right ones for that job or not. There is a difference between Phil Jackson letting MJ or Bryant play through a tough period to regain the shooting touch vs. Siddons letting Ash and Raqib play through to find their form. How can you expect Ash and Raqib to chase down 300+ totals when they are of the mindset that a 70 ball 50 will do more to secure their place on the squad. Not to excuse Shakib but he is cemented in the team as a captain and bowler and shouldn't have that much pressure on him while batting. But if he puts himself up in the top 5 as a batsman he need to perform as well. Players should be judged on the match situation and following instructions on what is expected of them for that particular instance. If not, either bench the player or get a coach who can get that message through. One of the two HAS to pay that price.

4. Why should they perform : Why should Mushy work on his keeping when there is a huge support to keep him in the team because of his batting skills. Other than the near century vs. ZIM in a series already decided, I don't recall anything of significance from Mushy in the limited format. Why should Ash worry about performing when it has been proclaimed there is no one to replace him? Why should Raqibul work on a higher strike rate when he is already a fixture in the T20 squad. If Kapali, SN, Aftab, Bashar were dropped despite having promising matches but a long out of form patch why shouldn't the same happen to the above? If it weren't for ICL, we could've said there was no one better and Mahmadullah and Naeem would never get their chance.

5. On the other hand : Kayes, Z, Aftab, SN are now in a position of one bad innings and you're out. Same with the bowlers : Shahadat, Rubel, Nazmul, Shafiul, Rasel etc. There needs to be consistancy. These guys need to be told they have an X number of games to show what they got. Lets say 6 or 7. They should then have to have 50% + good/decent innings to keep their spot. Not one big score and secured for the next two or three series'. This way they know where they stand and whats expected.

[hbk619]

Originally Posted by Raynman

5. On the other hand : Kayes, Z, Aftab, SN are now in a position of one bad innings and you're out. Same with the bowlers : Shahadat, Rubel, Nazmul, Shafiul, Rasel etc. There needs to be consistancy. These guys need to be told they have an X number of games to show what they got. Lets say 6 or 7. They should then have to have 50% + good/decent innings to keep their spot. Not one big score and secured for the next two or three series'. This way they know where they stand and whats expected.

it's very unfair to drop a batsman after 1 match. batsmans like Ashraful/raqibul/sakibul are too lucky that they are not gonna drop while not performing. If batsmans like Ashraful/Raqibul can get 10-20 chances to prove, so why not aftab? SN?

Few days ago I said that the team needs to do some experiments. However, when you have a moronic coach in the team who believes in "play your natural game" instead of "perfect game plan", then you are going to see more horrible performances in future. "play your natural game" term can go with Australia, but not with Bangladesh.

[ialbd]

i thought we were doing really well in the 'confidence' department, and thats how professional players develop. The more you play, the more seasoned you get with various environment the more you gain confidence. Surprisingly our players only get a burst of confidence once a while.... and most of the time its the same 'pa kapakapi' fear that I see working in them.... I fail to understand why....

[Tiger444]

Originally Posted by hbk619
it's very unfair to drop a batsman after 1 match. batsmans like Ashraful/raqibul/sakibul are too lucky that they are not gonna drop while not performing. If batsmans like Ashraful/Raqibul can get 10-20 chances to prove, so why not aftab? SN?

Few days ago I said that the team needs to do some experiments. However, when you have a moronic coach in the team who believes in "play your natural game" instead of "perfect game plan", then you are going to see more horrible performances in future. "play your natural game" term can go with Australia, but not with Bangladesh.

Umm Aftab had 80 chances in ODIs and 14 tests..he got lucky in the past by being in the team despite not performing..same with SN..these guys are not good examples..i agree that Raqibul and Ashraful need to be dropped because of their poor form..but who to select? Yes you could move Riyad and Naeem up the order..but then who's going to play down the order if we collapse since always do that? Ya we could put Aftab and Alok down there beccause they can hit well but if we collapse do we really want to rest our hands in aftab and alok down the order? There are a lot of questions left for us to ponder..on the positive side there are 2 more ODIs for the cricketers to prove themselves so we do not have to talk about this..

[simon]

The problems at the moment are the terrible form of Raqibul & Sakib.
These 2 have been the 2 most consistent in last 1-2 yrs.
Ash is inconsistent as usual.
The only thing we can do in this series is replacing Raqib by Aftab or even Ash out Aftab in.
And Nazmul out Rubel in.And the coach needs to work with Sakib to make him concentrate well & to have a better temperment.

[Tokai]

Originally Posted by Miraz
Tokai, Rajin is no solution. He is painful to watch. He can neither hit nor rotate the strike. He is a grafter, true, but pretty incompetent grafter.

Do you agree with the problem at first place?

If you do, what (or rather who) is your solution instead of Rajin?

[al Furqaan]

good thread.

we had positions of strength in both batting and bowling...and it seems every match these days we start off with a bang, and put ourselves in an interesting position, if not a winning position. this is a sign of improvement, and i'll credit Jamie Siddons for it.

ignoring the t20 result, today's match highlights some important and troubling things: we are clueless against NZ, especially in NZ conditions. but of course this about our overall failings and not just against NZ. to me the causes are three-pronged, at the moment.

1) long term, its a matter of our domestic setup as highlighted by ATMR. also a problem is that our domestic seasons rarely have the national teamers participate. yes shafiul has come up the domestic structure. but watch how many domestic matches he will play in the future while he's still on the national team. next to nil. our international commitments force this upon us. our players don't get any chance to hone their skills in the domestic setup. the BCB needs to do a better job scheduling the domestic tournaments so that national teamers can participate in at least 75% of the matches, in addition to making them more competitive. absence of national teamers also dents the quality of these domestics significantly, acting as a double-whammy.

2) mental frailty is the immediate short term reason for all these choke jobs. we've seen the under 19s doing it for the last 3 world cups, and the seniors have been doing it as well. we've got to rectify the mistakes because many of our losses have been due to mental frailness ALONE, not to any lack of skill or quality (not that we don't have those issues). a list of the more heinous instances follows:

losing to SL after reducing them to 6-5 (ODI)
312 all out, after being 290-3 against India last week (Test)
failing to beat NZ - and secure a series win - after running through their top order (ODI)
failing miserably to chase a modest 250 against NZ the very next game, again missing the series win (ODI)
going from 31-0 to 45-4, chasing a mere 45 against Zimbabwe (ODI)
losing by an innings in SA, although at one stage SA 130-5 (chasing 250) looked like facing a first innings deficit (Test)
failing to chase 285 or so against SA, despite ash and sakib giving solid platform (ODI)

right there are 4 very winnable ODIs against G8 sides. we lost not because of a lack of talent, skill, or technique. we lost simply because of mental lapses at key junctures of the game. more often than not, the cerebral-gonadal axis of our game flat lines completely, lending to not just defeat, but usually massive defeat from winnable (and sometimes winning) positions.

the only contradictions to the above list are:

beating SL to reach tri series final (ODI)
posting 413 in a 4th innings to trim the defecit of defeat to SL (Test)
Naeem's blitz to beat ZIM (ODI)

as you can see this list has only 2 wins, one against a minnow, and is far shorter than the first.

3) short to long term, we have a number of deadwoods in both Test and ODI sides that for a plethora of reasons continue to hog their spots. this is a big sign of the lack of viable alternatives in the bench, not necessarily talent-wise, by certainly skill slash experience wise.

In Tests, ashraful, raqibul, and imrul have been producing nothing, with rock and imrul averaging single digits over the last several innings, and ash doing nothing beyond scoring 20 at best. all three need to go, but who will replace them? naeem, mehrab, SN, and aftab would seem to be front runners. and while naeem and mehrab will likely give it their level best, SN and aftab might turn out to be equal wastes of talent. regardless, its time for a change...the current trio of ash-rock-imrul won't get it done (perhaps imrul deserves a bit of a chance yet) and so the time has come to finally look elsewhere.

in ODIs, rock, and mushy have been absolute busts, and shakib has been in shocking form and temperement as well. ashraful, i'm willing to give until the end of the england series, before making a final judgement on, and that gives him 5 more matches. if he can hit a fifty or two, or just give us 25-30 runs per innings...i'll be willing to give him a pass, because half our lineup now is giving us 10 runs or less (rock, mushy, shakib) so it makes no sense to drop a guy if he's averaging 20-25. now if ash joins that trio, well his days in the national team are over, and he can take a real long honeymoon with his soon-to-be wife.

**************

at the end of the day, i'd still say we're improving, albeit at a frustrating pace. unfortunately, the critics won't see that improvement, and you really can't blame them except for their rank hatred.

but that fact that almost every match we play these days, we are in a winnable position at some point in the game (note the distinction between the terms "winnable" and "winning") is proof positive of at least some level of improvement. even 2 years ago, when siddons first took over, even getting to winnable positions was a rare, once in five or ten games, occurrance. now its happening often. regardless of dew factor or pitch conditions or eventual margin of defeat, setting SL a target of 261 gives you a shot at winning, setting India 297 gives you a shot at winning, getting 70-0 after 10 overs gives you a shot at chasing 337, having the opposition at 37-2 after 10 in the same match gives you a great shot at winning. being just 20 down at 290-3 gives you a shot at really pushing the opposition to a 5th day, having them down at 6-5 gives you a good shot at defending 140 odd. these things just didn't happen 2 years ago.

the challenge is to find a way to bridge this seemingly large ravine seperating the terms "winnable" or even "winning" to the term "won".

[revolver]

^^^
again excelent work..BROTHER

[Miraz]

Originally Posted by Tokai
Do you agree with the problem at first place?

If you do, what (or rather who) is your solution instead of Rajin?

I would promote Mushfiq/Naeem at number 3 and will give him a long enough run to establish him in that position.

[Beamer]

Great analysis Al.

One way to improve our mental skills is to have the current players spread out in leagues of different big nations. It doesn't matter if its top tier, middle tire or low tier. Just by being there, playing in different cultures, learning to play in tough competitive situations is something they need and which can't be provided in our own country given the terrible state of situation in domestic leagues. I am all for Sakib playing overseas this year. Tamim needs it too. So, does Ash, and possibly every other core players including bowlers. It doesn't have to be top county level. Different leagues in England and if possible in South Africa, Australia and India should be top destinations. BCB, if possible should accomodate them, very much in line with Govt. institutions, sending people overseas to universities. They should send students from every age groups and more importantly the best of the group ( national team players ) to countries that I have mentioned. ICC should have a stake in it as well if they want BD to succeed in top flight cricket. ICC and BCB need to collborate on this. Academy series, A team series - needs to be arranged a lot more. But, I would like to see individuals fanning out overseas on their own. They need tough life lessons which will translate in to professional side. If DU and BUET can't provide higher education and skills for the next step, what makes you think Divisional leagues can provide the next step for the select few?

[reyme]

Originally Posted by hbk619
it's because we always want to win the game without a perfect game plan. selectors are culprit #1. They can't even judge the players. Siddons #2. He doesn't even know what should be the batting order and who should play in the team. Mr. Proud Al Hasan #3. After defeating west indies and zimbabwe, he started to feel proud. also he feels proud for #1 odi allrounder in the world. He believes he is going to have blast performance against top class teams because he is #1 allrounder. Now he is facing te actual reality.

Well said. My point exactly!

[Gowza]

shane watson has proven you can bat top order in test cricket as an allrounder and still be used well as a bowler, there is absolutely no reason why riyad can't be moved to the middle order in any of the formats. mushy as a keeper is understandable but he can still bat around 5/6. even when they have the players they don't use them properly.

[al Furqaan]

hopefully, aftab will mature if he continues to sit outside the playing XI...same with SN and a year in the domestics pummeling the bowlers there. hopefully same will happen to ash once he gets dropped from the team for good.

[Gowza]

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
hopefully, aftab will mature if he continues to sit outside the playing XI...same with SN and a year in the domestics pummeling the bowlers there. hopefully same will happen to ash once he gets dropped from the team for good.

we can always hope, i've got alok in that category as well, and always hoping nazmus will mature and become what he promised to be as well.

[Beamer]

I touched on what needs to be done to make them mentally tough. Now, to answer Miraz's question of where lies the problem of constant failures from positions of strength? I would have have to say TWO things that usually leads to that and we have an abundant of those TWO ingredients. One- Over confident players who start the collapse. Two- players who play with a lot of fear who continue and complete the collapse. Fear comes in many forms. Some are afraid of pace, some afraid of their low return of runs, some afraid of losing the next wkt, some afraid of keeping their spot in the place etc etc. You can not play with fear and our middle order traditionally have players who are exactly that. Tamim plays without any fear, gets his runs, but usually goes after a moment of overconfidence. Collapse happens in and around after his wkt. Then, we parade in Ash & Rock- two guys who are simply afraid of their future. Sakib follows, boasting a difficult state of mind, and he is obliging duely. Other opener is good for 30 -40 runs on a good day. So, there goes the entire top order in a matter of an eye blink. Then, some resistance comes from the bottom, because the pressure of winning is gone and they do some patch work. This is the current story. In the previous era, Bashar was the Tamim - he played without fear, but went agianst the run of play all of a sudden, which started the collapse just as now, because we have always managed to place the most vulnerable ( mental state ) cricketers in the middle to cope with adversity. Just as now, Pilot, Rafiq and co.back then salvaged the situation somewhat in lower order without having the pressure to win. Bottom line : You can not play any sport with fear. Look at our middle order now. Ash is afraid of his own life. He doesn't know whether he should live or die. Rok is glued to the ground. Sakib is not fearful but not in a positive frame of mind. No wonder the collpase is happening.

[reyme]

Problem:

1. Problem with team selection, batting/bowling orders: lower orders often outclass top orders, same mistakes by same batsmen over and over, playing wrong batting/bowling combinations/rotations

2. Not enough international exposure/match practice: players talk about it all the time

3. Not used to different condition/weather/pitches: a common complaints

4. Faulty Gameplan: The game was lost before it began due to bad toss decision, Giving up when wicket is not falling, not sure how to attack a certain batsmen/team, not a clear gameplan and set of backup gameplans. No instruction during the breaks to the batsmen etc.

Solution:

1. Make the selectors work harder. Change the head coach. Need a new and senior head coach who will have better control over players. He can do a better team management and superior gameplan. Make Siddons batting coach. We also need a new bowling coach. Donald? Abdul Qadir?

2. Allow 4 foreign players per team in the Premier League. So ALL our domestic players will get a chance to face 2nd-3rd-4th-5th string Pak/Ind/SL bowlers and batsmen. International exp right in our own backyard! There will be no need to send our domestic players all over the world to gain such experience. To afford these foreign players we must commercilize the game even more and show a lot of them on live TV. BCB should team up with a TV channel. There wont be any shortage of sponsors.

3. Make all kinds of piches in our stadiums. And use all of them. Make spin track in Dhaka and Rajshahi, fast and bouncy track in chittagong, khulna etc. Now ALL our domestic players are exposed to all kinds of condition and tracks.

Usually we play in Dhaka and Chittagong for international matches. Use the SAME/duplicate pitch round the year that will be used for International matches. Now ALL our National Players are exposed and adapted to these tracks. If we cant win a test at least we must draw a test.

4. We definitely need a mature head coach when it comes to gameplan. When we listen to the commentators it seems even the commentators are sick and tired of the bad decistions by the coach, about his batting orders, not being proactive enough, not acting according to the sitiuations.

And we need a new talended computer analyst. In fact we need a team of computer analysts to assist the coach for gameplan. I highly doubt Nasir Hossain is a sharp, talented computer analyst. We may not need a Harvard graduate but we definitely need someone who is also very sharp analyzing the game. We have plenty of them in the BC forum.

[Miraz]

Good observation Beamer. I want to add another point. Most of our middle batsmen do not know their role in the team. When team gets a flying start, they do not continue the good work, becomes overly cautious and helps the opposition to come back on top. On the other hand, when the team is in trouble, they forget to consolidate and try to counter by playing too many shots which ultimately results in collapse.

This team has the ability, but do not have the prowess to execute their plans effectively.

[Beamer]

Originally Posted by Miraz
Good observation Beamer. I want to add another point. Most of our middle batsmen do not know their role in the team. When team gets a flying start, they do not continue the good work, becomes overly cautious and helps the opposition to come back on top. On the other hand, when the team is in trouble, they forget to consolidate and try to counter by playing too many shots which ultimately results in collapse.

This team has the ability, but do not have the prowess to execute their plans effectively.

I think they know the roles, i.e. what to do in specific situations as you have mentioned, but once they set foot, they either forget the roles for that day, or they get overwhelmed by the opposition who make them play out of their comfort zone. It is purely mental. However, only the fearless will meet a situation head on. We have too many who are afraid of different things. I just wish Bashar was born fifteen years later. Tamim- Bashar duo would have made the job easier for the rest...