No room for apologists of 1971....

[Kabir]

Thanks Rabiul bhai. Got your point.

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by Kabir
Hopefully I'll get some clarification on this from you. Who are paki-loving deshis? What defines a paki-loving deshi?

You should know where I'm coming from.

Those Bangladeshi apologists and dalals who try to sugarcoat historical realities by taking advantage of the ignorance and apathy of the indifferent, and wave the Paki flag unconditionally whenever and whatever they play, including against us. Not deshis who actually love wonderful and beautiful people who have connections, no matter how obscure, to Pakistan. The same goes for Indophiles on the other side. I'm proud to be a Bangladeshi American and Bangladeshi nationalist. Proud to be an anti-sectarian Muslim, a Bengali, and a compatriot of many BIhari and the 65 non-Bengali indigenous groups of Bangladeshis in our diverse country.

Hope that cleared things up a bit K. I am by no means a BAL supporter, my freedom fighting, Bhasani NAP family was severely persecuted by the BAKSAL dictatorship and their Rakkhibahini death squads directly responsible for murdering 30000+ freedom fighters associated with leftist politics of NAP Bhasani/Taher and Jalil's Jashod/Shiraj Shikdar and Ziauddin's Shorbohara, not the Mujib Bahini posers they were themselves. Posers who never fired a shot inside Bangladesh before late November. Also, I harbor no illusions about the stark and tragic difference between Sheikh Shaheb (RIP) the great leader and undisputed focal point of our successful political struggle, and tyrannical the head of state most didn't shed a tear for when he (RIP) and his family (RIP) were criminally assassinated by Mushtaq, a BAL leader, and those who backed him for a variety of reasons. That type of lawlessness adds to the problem already there. You don't establish law and order by breaking its spirit and letter of our common law as reflected in the 1972 Constitution, initially subverted by BAKSAL Fascists.

But no way I was going to vote for a party, KZ/Pinu/Kuku/Falu's BNP, that formed an alliance with criminal, anti-constitutional, and ultimately anti-democratic forces that opposed our very birth, especially after their connection to JMB and other terrorist groups became clearly exposed. The record breaking corruption, inaction and the War Criminals issue also played a part.

That said, I admire a handful of people associated with both parties.

First and foremost Ziaur Rahman (RIP) after his emergence on November 7th. For holding our country together during the height of the Cold War and its coups and counter coups, real and far reaching reconstruction and nation building activities, and encouraged by Jimi Carter, the transition back to pluralist politics without resorting to nepotism or fostering a cult of personality. I bear witness to that. The ugliness along the way, some necessary and some, such as illegally amending the 1972 Constitution and the clearly stated values he fought for as a heroic and significant SC, rehabilitating anti-Bangladeshi forces for political gain, continuing the Israeli style holistic aggression against our own people in CHT, modernizing thuggery in student politics, and the influx of dodgy, opportunistic and corrupt politicians into BNP, were simply criminal.

In BAL, I admire the late Tajuddin Ahmed (RIP), quickly out of favor by Sheikh Shaheb (RIP) himself for his continued and uncompromising stance on democracy, nepotism and corruption. I also admire Matia Choudhury, Saber Bhai and of late, Dipu Moni, Mal Muhit, Sohel Taj and Said Khokon. Others make me puke.

Pinu and Falu have destroyed the BNP pipeline completely and weakened once formidable leaders such as Mannan Bhuiyan and Khoka beyond repair and redemption.

[Rifat]

if war criminals are found and tried...what should be their punishment? death penalty?

[yaseer]

Some wonderful posts Sohel Bhai.
Really appreciate the way you put the facts.

And yes, as Rabiul bhai said,
"There are a lot of records that needs to be set straight.
Time has come for us to write the rights and scrap the rubbish."

There should not be any mis-conception about past, already we have suffered a lot for this. Still there are politicians and their alias are working to hold our nation back and implement their own agenda. They are from the group who could not able to establish their agenda in 1971, suffered and now slowly penetrating to make a revengeful impact.

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by rifat
if war criminals are found and tried...what should be their punishment? death penalty?

I am vehemently opposed to the death penalty and all forms of torture. Killing a combatant on the battlefield during the course of a clearly just war is one thing, but once an individual in captured and subjugated, he/she becomes a prisoner, irrespective of the allegations that brought him/her here.

Torture yields information the torturer wants to hear and is inadmissible in any real court of justice. The death penalty does not deter murder and other REPORTED violent crime. If it did, nations practicing them would be crime free and nations that have abolished those practices will be overflowing with violence. Clearly not the case. Time to evolve.

This coming from a guy who has forgiven the men who murdered his own father (RIP) and other members of his family. Forgiven, yes, but not forgotten. They must be brought to account lawfully so that people think twice in the future.

The Quran, irrespective of some Sharia "convolutions", clearly opposes all forms of torture and cruel and unusual punishment of prisoners, POWs especially. That is important to me and my personal experience of Tawhid. Politically, because my personal choices and submission cannot be imposed upon others as Islam is a religion of "willful submitters" without "compulsion" and "difficulty", I use the highly compatible Universal Declaration of Human Rights, something our 1972 Constitution is also based on, to be the sole criterion in my assessment of the political world both here and abroad.

Politics by definition is coercion seeking to impose itself upon others. Hence my determined, Islamic opposition to Islamic politics and all forms Theocracy. Submission is a sacred, personal and ultimately "uncodifiable" connection between each individual and GOD, no matter how we name that connection or how we choose to be aware of it. GOD transcends human consciousness and attributes is Omniscient, Omnipotent, Wise, and Just beyond our limited understanding. Speaking, coercing and killing in His name is the worst form of idol worship as we anoint ourselves His partner.

Once proven guilty, these war criminals should spend the rest of their lives in prison without any possibility of parole, and given the opportunity to expiate under those circumstances. GOD reforms those He wills. All we can do is our best to create the opportunity. Throwing away the key, under the circumstances of violent crime, is the first step.

[yaseer]

What I am not liking is that the trial of war criminal is being made a political issue of a party, as if "BAL will do it and it is staged to destroy Jamat".
It's true Jamat contains most of them, but there are others also. Whatever the punishment may be, but they must be identified and labeled as "war criminals", so that generations to come be aware of them and clear of this issue and go forward.

[Sohel]

Somebody has to bag the cat. The tribunal will be internationally sanctioned and observed, and in the process way beyond narrow political interests. The statutes themselves do not take political sides and IMHO, all war crimes committed during that time, including the ones by a handful of Mujib and Muktibahini criminals against others, should also be a part of this ongoing, international, process.

I do not support banning Jamaat and other anti-Constitutionalist forces, especially in light of their continued and abject failure at the polls. Less than 15 out of 300 at the height of their power and just 2 during the last elections speaks volumes about our Muslim majority country where most people pray 5 times a day. I am indeed proud to be Bangladeshi and sharing that honor with people with their hearts and actions in the right place.

But all of their illegal activities, ranging from terrorism to infiltration of our public institutions in order to undermine our Constitution must be brought to account with extreme prejudice.

[nzfan]

Sad thing about all of this, is 99% of westerners have no idea that something like this happened

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by nzfan
Sad thing about all of this, is 99% of westerners have no idea that something like this happened

True, but our Facebook groups continue to inform others. Here's a few relevant links to get started for those interested: -

1) http://www.virtualbangladesh.com/history/genocide.html

2) http://www.genocidebangladesh.org/

3) http://www.preventgenocide.org/edu/p...gal/resources/

4) http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html

And on the other issue: -

Foreign Minister Dr Dipu Moni has urged Pakistan to apologise for the genocide its army had committed in the Bangladesh's War of Independence from that country in 1971, reports bdnews24.com.

Dr Dipu Moni raised the issue Tuesday when Pakistan high commissioner Alamgir Bashar Khan Babar met her at her office in the city Tuesday, according to the foreign ministry.

The Foreign Minister (FM) also stressed that Islamabad should take millions of stranded Pakistanis back and settle disputes over sharing of resources.

"During the meeting the Foreign Minister raised the issue of resolving the unsettled matters pending for last 38 years between the two countries.

"These included sharing of assets, seeking formal apologies by Pakistan for the genocide in 1971, repatriation of stranded Pakistanis and others," the ministry said in a press statement released after the meeting.

The envoy had come to hand over a message condoling the death of Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina's husband Dr MA Wazed Miah.

http://www.thefinancialexpress-bd.co.../13/66383.html

[Neel Here]

one reason was that pakistan was a western ally at the time and at govt level it was mostly hushed up. US whole-heartedly supported pakistan during the events, against the advices of their envoy at dhaka.

still, there were spontaneous reactions from people around the world e.g george harrison did a concert to raise money and spread awareness for the people of bangladesh.

The Concert For Bangladesh was the event title for two benefit concerts organized by George Harrison and Ravi Shankar, held at noon and at 7:00 p.m. on August 1, 1971, playing to a total of 40,000 people at Madison Square Garden in New York City. Organized for the relief of refugees from East Pakistan (now independent Bangladesh) after the 1970 Bhola cyclone and during the 1971 Bangladesh atrocities and Bangladesh Liberation War, the event was the first benefit concert of this magnitude in world history. It featured an all-star supergroup of performers that included Bob Dylan, Eric Clapton, George Harrison, Billy Preston, Leon Russell, and Ringo Starr.

time magazine archives of the time will give you an idea, it's available online.

some facts :
'71 was the largest incidence of genocide since the second world war and competes with the nazi and the rwandan one as one of the worst incidences of genocides in world history.


it created close to 10 million refugees who fled to india of the total population of 75 million.

it also had the highest ever incidences of crimes against women in world history.

The Guinness Book of Records lists the Bangladesh Genocide as one of the top 5 genocides in the 20th century.

(it uses official figures which are supposed to be less than actual ones)


links : http://www.genocidebangladesh.org/
http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html

[Neel Here]

and here's a picture of a refugee.

[Kabir]

Originally Posted by Sohel NR
Those Bangladeshi apologists and dalals who try to sugarcoat historical realities by taking advantage of the ignorance and apathy of the indifferent, and wave the Paki flag unconditionally whenever and whatever they play, including against us. Not deshis who actually love wonderful and beautiful people who have connections, no matter how obscure, to Pakistan. The same goes for Indophiles on the other side. I'm proud to be a Bangladeshi American and Bangladeshi nationalist. Proud to be an anti-sectarian Muslim, a Bengali, and a compatriot of many BIhari and the 65 non-Bengali indigenous groups of Bangladeshis in our diverse country.

Hope that cleared things up a bit K.

Thanks Sohel bhai, for clearing it up for me.

Until I met you here, I only heard of the nightmares of the '71, the mindless killings, the raping of women, and so much more nonsense. You're the first person I know who has experienced it.

I know that there are facts that I, as a younger Bangladeshi, may not know. In fact, many things you mentioned here are new to me. But that does not / should not play a role in mine or anyone else's unconditional support for our freedom fighters.

[Tintin]

Originally Posted by Neel Here
one reason was that pakistan was a western ally at the time and at govt level it was mostly hushed up. US whole-heartedly supported pakistan during the events, against the advices of their envoy at dhaka.

still, there were spontaneous reactions from people around the world e.g george harrison did a concert to raise money and spread awareness for the people of bangladesh.


time magazine archives of the time will give you an idea, it's available online.

This is an interesting one from Time in 1971
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...903235,00.html

FOR André Malraux, who turned 70 last week, it should indeed be a time for reminiscence. In 1967, the French literary giant and former Gaullist Minister brought out the first volume of his Anti-mémoires, and he is now deep into the second volume, which he has decided to have published after his death. He is also at work on a history of the World War II French Resistance, a movement in which Malraux won a hero's place by leading the liberation of Strasbourg as the Maquis' dashing "Colonel Berger."

But as the archetypal homme engagé, the intellectual man of action, Malraux is not yet fully ready to climb down from the barricades. Last month he announced that he was prepared to fight for Bangla Desh, the East Bengali independence movement spawned by the Pakistani civil war.

"The only intellectuals who have the right to defend the Bengalis in words," Malraux wrote to an Indian diplomat, "are those who are ready to fight for them." Was he ready? he was asked. "At the head of an infantry unit, certainly not!" he declared. "But leading a tank detachment, of course!" This week he will meet with India's Prime Minister, Indira Gandhi, when she visits Paris, to discuss what form his role may take.

[Zeeshan]

Sohel vai, if anything your vitrolic posts have managed to trigger the banner above. Thanks.



Top post. Sohel vai is definitely one of the 100 Geniuses of Bangladesh. (Another shameless self=promotion by Gopal Bhar).

[BANFAN]

Thanks SNR, for refreshing my childhood memories and relevant studies as an adult.
It's unforgetable for those who have experienced & refreshing to hear it again and again. There can be no question of accepting apolgies, can acknowledge apologetic & sincere healing acts by the atrocious elements of 71, that would say if they are repenting truely for their acts.

2/3 days back I asked a pakistani; what's happening in Pakistan? The explanation he gave just made me dumb. According to him; "All these wars and acts are being staged by patriotic Pak Army & ISI for the interest of the country." What's the interest?: "US is asking pak to allow them to establish base inside Pak and the army is denying them that by showing deteriorated security situation in Pak which is created by ISI"

If this is the state of their ALU, what can you do? They haven't changed a bit since 47. Even the loss of 71 didn't teach them and they aren't learning now. Who can stop their destruction? I don't care if they even don't exist as a nation state. Who cares for a 'sorry' from such stupid creatures.

I would rathar love to see the trial process goes on properly and the criminals are taken to task. First at home and then abroad.

[One World]

Rejuvenation of Gha-Da-Ni-Co on the card, sad that Sufia Kamal does not exist.

[Banglatiger84]

There is a tremendous level of delusion among many informed Pakistanis. Some of them think Pakistan defeated the USSR. Others believe that Taleban fighters in NWFP are Indians in disguise. The worst part is when some state blasphemous stuff like "Pakistan is the safeguard of Islam", or "Fighting for Pakistan is the same as fighting for Islam"...

[PoorFan]

I would not be surprised if these people start to say [soon] ... "We are defending Islam from western aggression".

Originally Posted by BANFAN
2/3 days back I asked a pakistani; what's happening in Pakistan? The explanation he gave just made me dumb. According to him; "All these wars and acts are being staged by patriotic Pak Army & ISI for the interest of the country." What's the interest?: "US is asking pak to allow them to establish base inside Pak and the army is denying them that by showing deteriorated security situation in Pak which is created by ISI"

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by nzfan
Sad thing about all of this, is 99% of westerners have no idea that something like this happened

bengalis don't have lobbying power...and whatever we do have would probably be opposed by the slightly stronger paki lobbying power.

not to mention, the NATO alliance were staunch supporters of pakistan at that time, and as we all know, NATO never made any mistakes.

if war criminals are found and tried...what should be their punishment? death penalty?

some people don't like an eye for an eye justice...in which case the penalty for the rapist should be that he has is organ of hatred cut off and served to him on a plate as his last meal. if the pakistani govt isn't willing to do that to one of their own citizens, ours should step up.

[Sohel]

Bloodlust, no matter how convoluted, gratifying or "justified", is the crux of the problem. Just as the injustices committed by the aggressor doesn't make reprehensible acts from the "victims" less unjust, dragging yourself down to the level of your oppressor does nothing other than to maintain and enhance the perpetual cycle of violence under a wide variety of moronic political rationale and polemics, no matter how articulate or apparently sound. Often the oppressor believes himself to be "the victim". That belief occupies the heart of his rage and his life in it.

Genetic predisposition is a factor that can be managed successfully. Generally speaking: pain + humiliation > low self esteem > projection > gratification by causing others similar pain and humiliation. Break the cycle and strive to be better.

Evolve. Become the change you want, not what you fight against.

[Puck]

culturally, we have inherited a rich language and its own literary tradition that is more illustrious and definitely older than the oppressor's culture. if there is to be recognition of the grave acts that still divide some of us then let us do so in the arts. bengali is the fifth or sixth most spoken language. our recent literary past, at least for the last hundred and fifty years can only be matched by writers in english, russian, french and spanish. to keep the memory alive we only need to write about it, sing about it, paint it, film it and live it.