US of PA Versus Siddons, the Latest.

[Zobair]

Thank you.

I will stick to my position. You are of course welcome to stick to yours. I have followed Bangladesh cricket long enough to know that rarely is the "present" at any point in time perceived to be better than any point in the "past" by our fans. The reality is that our expectations just about outpace the actual performance of our boys almost all the time. All the dramatic arguements being made in this forum may seem accurate to many of us hurt and disappointed fans but they really don't to justice to what Siddons is trying to achieve with his boys here.

Just as with the CEO of a "growth" firm, I am inclined to give a fairly long rope to Siddons. After all we invested considerable resources and effort into his recruitment process. I just don't feel we have given him a fair "go".

Having said that I am all for constructive advice being dispensed in his direction, without quite hanging a noose in front of him yet since that kind of "pressure" does no good to anyone really.

Originally Posted by reyme
(Excluding IRE)
7 months, 3 Series, 3 series defeat, 3 whitewash, 5 test loss, 11 ODI loss and most with very much one sided affair. No morale, no self belief, poor batting, bowling, fielding.

On top of that, poor team selection, clueless gameplans, no clue about opposition.

Now let multiply that with 3: you get the same. No need to wait 18 months. By then everyhtung will be gone: Test staus, ODI status, Takku Siddons, maybe even Banglacricket (hope not) and the many of the loyal fans

Only beneficiary is Mr Siddons himself: he gets to make additional $300K for lecturing us how pathetic we the loser fans are, for expecting a win or two here and there!

Have fun!

[Gowza]

tbh on the most important thing for the BD national team imo is just getting someone who will stay with the team, siddons can be as good or better than any other coach in the world but the fact that he's barely with the team pretty much makes it irrelevant. it would be better to get someone who's not quite as good of a coach but spends a lot more time with the team than a coach who's say one of the top 10 coaches in the world but only spends a couple of weeks getting ready for each series then leaves again.

improvement comes from the work done between each series, siddons actions don't agree with that. one issue is how is siddons really preparing these players for each series?

i mean siddons is never with them between each series so it's hard to believe that the players are working on their game in that time (at least not contsructively). preparation isn't the time to add things to a players game. preparation should be the time used to fine tune those changes, the players should have been working on those changes for weeks before the preparation camp. even if siddons has given them assignments while he's away, it's not nearly as good as if he's there with them.

i think the main issue with siddons is he doesn't spend enough time with the team, he might very well be a good coach but he doesn't coach them enough to find out whether his techniques are effective. i'm still giving him to the end of the year to whip the team into better shape, if we don't see improvements by then i think it's fair to say he's not the right man to be head coach of the BD national team.

[nsd3]

Originally Posted by Fazal
To get more, we all need to go through the pain of realizing our current player's limitations.... what I am saying is even the best will have to go through a long term rebuilding process....and at the end Ash/Afatb and may be mashrafee most likely will not be part of the final team (in long run) that will bring us competative games.

100% khati kotha! Many don't understand that but then again it's all part of the process of rebuilding. I feel refreshed that not all are acting as cry babies.

[al Furqaan]

wow, 52 replies off just 53 views on this thread. with this single from me its now, 53 off 54. impressive strike rate.

300 is on the cards...keep it up fellows.

[bujhee kom]

i am with fazal mama, cricket_dorshok, zobair and razab bhai.
my point is no matter how hard the going gets, rewards will be there. it's still too early to judge siddons. i still believe that his method of training is very good and we will see the benifit soon.
achcha fazal mama, ei hashita ki amader mami-er naki?

[Sohel]

FGS guys !

It's not about the "past" versus the "present" or canning somebody at all IMHO.

It's about Coach Siddons 1) paying a bit more attention to statistical details as they relate to some of the "cultural sensitivity" issues, 2) not taking too many vacations too soon when he is needed, 3) being aware of the real fine line that exists between the absolutely necessary "tough love" and the"abuse" due to appraisal and affirmations without BALANCE, and subsequently 4) becoming a MORE EFFECTIVE coach for for a very young and immature Bangladeshi team.

Peace ...

[RazabQ]

Really, I was under the impression that Dav was not popular when he left. This all reminds me about the communists victory in the elections after Glasnost did not yield a big bang payoff in the first few years of Perestroika. Now look at Russia ...

Whatmore took us as far as you could with a bunch of talented but weak-kneed and weak-minded bunch who needed psycho-mumbo jumbo to pull off the occasional big win. We need to move to the next stage and I'm willing to give Mr. vacation a little bit of rope on that.

[AsifTheManRahman]

A wise man once said, "Beat your kids". Russell Peters was right. All this criticism - constructive or not - will keep the receivers on their toes. Whether they deserve it is immaterial. Beat them even if they haven't done anything wrong. If tough love's what you want, no one shall be spared.

[BD-Shardul]

Originally Posted by AsifTheManRahman
A wise man once said, "Beat your kids". Russell Peters was right. All this criticism - constructive or not - will keep the receivers on their toes. Whether they deserve it is immaterial. Beat them even if they haven't done anything wrong. If tough love's what you want, no one shall be spared.

Spare the rod, spoils the child.

[sunny747]

Originally Posted by RazabQ
Really, I was under the impression that Dav was not popular when he left. This all reminds me about the communists victory in the elections after Glasnost did not yield a big bang payoff in the first few years of Perestroika. Now look at Russia ...

Whatmore took us as far as you could with a bunch of talented but weak-kneed and weak-minded bunch who needed psycho-mumbo jumbo to pull off the occasional big win. We need to move to the next stage and I'm willing to give Mr. vacation a little bit of rope on that.

very good one.

[Foozy]

Originally Posted by Sohel NR
FGS guys !

It's not about the "past" versus the "present" or canning somebody at all IMHO.

It's about Coach Siddons 1) paying a bit more attention to statistical details as they relate to some of the "cultural sensitivity" issues, 2) not taking too many vacations too soon when he is needed, 3) being aware of the real fine line that exists between the absolutely necessary "tough love" and the"abuse" due to appraisal and affirmations without BALANCE, and subsequently 4) becoming a MORE EFFECTIVE coach for for a very young and immature Bangladeshi team.

Peace ...

Haha, I was thinking of the exact same thing when I read the last couple of posts. The story is gradually changing, and along with it... the gist of the story.

Its like the game of "chineese whisper" where people sit in a long line, and the first person whispers something to the second. The second whispers the same thing to the third, and so on till the end of the row. At the end of the game u compare what the first person said to what the last person heard, and usually the whole sentence is changed. Funny stuff.

Nevertheless, very interesting thread, and a lovely debate going on. Fazal mamu was the lone warrior at that end, but it seems like he has gathered a few comrades along the way lmao

[BD-Shardul]

Originally Posted by Foozy

Nevertheless, very interesting thread, and a lovely debate going on. Fazal mamu was the lone warrior at that end, but it seems like he has gathered a few comrades along the way lmao

Nope, I am behind Mamu

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by mafizraju
.............................
but noooooo!!!! we all want instant mix. as if Coaches comes with "Jadur Gola". "Drink one and get three generated in your stomach for free."

A coach for the national team, should have the ability to keep the current status of the team atleast, isn't it. Allegation is not that he should have made some vissible improvement, rathar, "He is damaging the team's Moral, self belief, desire to win" some of which are pretty time consuming to reinstall.

He is forcing us all to believe that we can't and shouldn't think to win, while the players have done it in the past and have started believing that they can win. He is trying to take us back to the days of looser mentality, we all know how painfully we have moved passed that phase.

So far JS presents: "A bunch of young boys playing cricket like old hags with hanging faces and lathergic movements, waiting for a Shommanjonok porajoy, by scoring 200 runs." atleast this situation could be avoided. Hope that's not expecting a 'Jadur Gola' ?

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by Pundit
For a country that cannot even keep a President or PM for a full term, all this is hardly surprising.

Very wrongly quoted, Many of BD prime, ministers and persidents have completed their terms. infact from 1990 all governments have completed their terms. Unfortunately Pak being 2ice our age, havn't yet completed any term of president, parliament or PM. Mosha will be the first one if he does, but he is also threatened. That didnot stop pak to win world cup. So I don't even get any relation between these two other than self demeaning attitude.

Originally Posted by Pundit
What's more disgusting is that many of you now want Whatmore - the person you were getting ready to lynch a year back. Whatmore did not want to stay with us - understand that clearly. He had fully understood that we had reached our limits. And that's what most of you were mouthing while loading your guns to chase him out. Also, he simply wanted the bigger price - India and the $$$.

Everyone appreciated whatmore's contribution in BC atleast. I haven't seen any public humiliation of whatmore though. That may be his personal decision and may be the board wanted to try a new coach or didn't accept his new conditions, whatever. But lynching him a year back? I don't think that was the situation.

Originally Posted by Pundit
I recall in college how an assistant coach stormed into the corridor to break down down a football player's door one fine Sunday morning. He grabbed the snoozing ball player's head and pushed him out into the sunny morning, hurtling foul mouthed abuse - all for skipping practice. And you all want to give your tender love smooches to our 20 year old sweeties.

Your example is irrelevant here. I havn't heard of siddons getting tough with the players for not performing, Calling for extra practices, Long and tougher practice sessions... anything of that sort. I only hear him saying, to believe that we are not capable of winning against anyone and if we could make 200 runs that's an achievement. The performance graph of the team is showing the output. Aren't you comparing apple to orange?

Originally Posted by Pundit
What Whatmore did was the easy part - now when we need to take ourselves to the next level, and the going get's tough, we break into tears - especially for the fans who do nothing mmore than watch - this is pathetic.

Here you go. We Bangalis always forget the past.

We even didn't have players to hold bat properly and shommanjonok porajoy was celebrated in public, he has tought us to win and be competitive. Now we expect the new coach to hold the current situation and make it more consistent. I don't say that it is easy, but it is not by any definition tougher than whatmore's time. What is the next level that he is taking us by deterioration of performance? Do you expect that suddenly one fine morning we will see players hitting centuries out of the wreckage? or should we forget the definition of performance/improvement? or May be It's all magic that JS will show us!! WOW

[/QUOTE]

[Pundit]

Originally Posted by BANFAN
Very wrongly quoted, Many of BD prime, ministers and persidents have completed their terms. infact from 1990 all governments have completed their terms. Unfortunately Pak being 2ice our age, havn't yet completed any term of president, parliament or PM. Mosha will be the first one if he does, but he is also threatened. That didnot stop pak to win world cup. So I don't even get any relation between these two other than self demeaning attitude.

[/quote]

Thanks for the lesson in history. Did not know there was a country called Pakistan - and let alone win a world cup. But let us see what indicators we have of our own that explain our long lack of successes ?

[Pundit]

Originally Posted by BANFAN
Here you go. We Bangalis always forget the past.

We even didn't have players to hold bat properly and shommanjonok porajoy was celebrated in public, he has tought us to win and be competitive. Now we expect the new coach to hold the current situation and make it more consistent. I don't say that it is easy, but it is not by any definition tougher than whatmore's time. What is the next level that he is taking us by deterioration of performance? Do you expect that suddenly one fine morning we will see players hitting centuries out of the wreckage? or should we forget the definition of performance/improvement? or May be It's all magic that JS will show us!! WOW

[/quote]

I grew up in a mofosshaal cheetee - seldom gettin bhat over two consecutive belas. I do want to forget the past. That's what makes me a Bengali. But now I will head out and practice cricket, better, so that I play well next time.

"I don't say that it is easy, but it is not by any definition tougher than whatmore's time."

You just answered why you ought to have a little more patience. How long was Whatmore's time BTW - sorry, I was still in my mofoshaal cheeti back when it all started.

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by Fazal
Thats your opinion based on what you see (first hand in game) and what you read in the newspaper, right? Personally I tend to disagree.

The body language of the players in the field and the nature of fielding should inciate a deficiency in moral. IMO

Originally Posted by Fazal
I think we are pampered too much, Its time to face the real world and the reality check what it takes to be a national player in the highest level.

Agree 100% on pampering issue. But I don't consider JS actions as being tough. Seeing improvement in 200 runs and trying to make them believe that they can't win. I don't think that is being tough or preparing for the highest level. He should be tough and make the players work harder to achieve the highest standard, how can he be tough by lowering the standards.

Originally Posted by Fazal
Overall fielding, yes.

batting & bowling? I would rather analyse individually.

I would add mahmuduallh did pretty good. SN kind of regained a bit of form. Zunaid in ODI definitely failing, but then aagain he never get it going in ODI yet. may be people can agrue that Zunaid is not ready yet for natinial and Siddon single handedly choose Zunaid.

Bowling wise Sahadat and Farhad performed very well. mashrafee was spotty.
Razzak was ineffective. Afater injury Rasel struggled and didn;t enough games to judge. mahmudullah may turn out to be a good all rounder. Ash was kind of failed. Aftab definetiley failed.

We can look at both infact. Team to me is more important an indicator as some individual heroics may not give us the right picture. Performance of the team has gone down, only TI has a improved record as per the stats provided by T_E. Bowling wise also the team performance has deteriorated. Farhad performed well in one match. Shahadat is the only improvement possibly.

Originally Posted by Fazal
May be you are right, may be he will fail. But historically we have given too much time to our players so why not give hime one more year? I agree with you that Siddon disapointed me a bit, but I will wait one more year before I will ask change.

I guess we don't have any choice now, but I think BCB should intervene and atleast siddons should know that he needs to show improvement from where he took over, not use the stats of last 10 years to his advantage. We all know how bad we were at the begining and what it was when he took over, after the world cup. And stop all these holidays, Demoralizing statements and excuses for poor performances. I don't mind of course if BCB removes him, as I am not at all hopeful that he can bring any big improvement with such attitude and low expectations.

[BANFAN]

Quote: Pundit
I grew up in a mofosshaal cheetee - How long was Whatmore's time BTW [/QUOTE]

Ami tokhon Gerame chilam bhai,

How many times did Whatmore say that we can't win and if we try to win means we don't understand cricket?

Must be every day.

Sorry i missed it, oi shomoy amader GERAME NY Times ashto na.

If you know please calculate, how many times we have to hear these words from JS, in as many years as Whatmore spent here.

Amgo Gerame, Bhanur Doirjer Koutuk ta khub cholto; "Dekhi na ki kore"

[reyme]

[quote=Fazal;690175]No wellknown coach will come here and risk his hard earned reputation even if you throw more money than establsihed teams. Its a No-Win situation for them after Dav did occational "miracle" out of nothing. You have to dazzle them with lots of money. And if you do that, you may end up with wrong kind of griddy caoch who will take more vacation and milk more money than Siddon is supposedly milking. quote]

Wrong observation. Its all about the money, system, rules and regulations. Thats why you see the laziest of a subcontinent fella pulling 18 hours a day in NYC driving cab, who would otherwise might just as well be thief since thats easy money in Kolkata.
Given the right salary and opportunity (IPL), we can definitely attract quality coaches. And you need to be a prefessional recruiter too, make it a point that they will gain a lot coaching BD. Trust me money talks. Who would thought all the players wil run to India to play IPL just 5 years ago? There are only 10 teams in the world for crying out loud.
About the milking part, the more your salaries are the harder the rules should get. NBA/NFL players counts fines in few hundred thousand dollars. Have the contract written out by professional sports lawyers.

[reyme]

[quote=Pundit;690204]What's more disgusting is that many of you now want Whatmore - the person you were getting ready to lynch a year back. Whatmore did not want to stay with us - understand that clearly.
What Whatmore did was the easy part - now when we need to take ourselves to the next level, and the going get's tough, we break into tears - especially for the fans who do nothing mmore than watch - this is pathetic.
quote]

Dont make an orange out of an apple. Nobody here saying they wanted Whatmore. He was a professional and moved on. Lot of people did not like his attitute towards the end. But you are missing the point completely. Have you even read the article by Utpol or jumped on the wagon to start an argument?

What whatmore did everybody knows. A totally fragile team toured Australia under his leadership and showed tremendous courage when people thought they could beat BD in test within a day! Forgot? And then during the last 2.5 year before Jamie, BD showed several performance worth talking about. And now the way team is performing as if we wnet 10 years back, worskt of all the body language of the player shos they are not there to even compete.

Wahtmore was a great motivator, he was not taking vacation every 4 weeks, he was focusing on building a team, making the team believe that they can also win and coaching them accordingly, and thats why he is being discussed here.

If whatever whatmore did was an easy part how come Siddons can do that easy part even? All I see he takes vacation and complains. I know these type of people, they talk a lot, complain all the time and towards the end, the result is zero. After 1.5 yeras this guy will leave BD team saying all the players, fans, BCB are bunch of losers hence he could not succeed. You will see.

[Beamer]

ato lafa lafi chilla chilli for what? Whatmore? oh that guy? You mean the guy who dangled his carrot with a rod every time the neighbors door cracked open a bit, only to be slammed shut, thus refusing entry. However, the repeated attempts finally managed to land the carrot inside , but not in the mansion, but inside the doors of the outhouse, where workers quarter are located. That guy?

[kalpurush]

Originally Posted by Miraz
That's not true. Dav had some initial proposal of pay rise and we declined his offer.

After the initial proposal got rejected, Dav decided to move on. India job prospect was certainly a reason and that simply ruined Dav's reputation.

Ironically, we are paying Siddons more than Dav's demand.

Thats what we do best as a Bangladeshi. Samone diye mosha gele khop kore dhore feli, kintu pechone diye hati geleo dekhi na!

[nsd3]

Comparing Whatmore era with Siddons period (less than a year even!!!) is not gonna give a reasonable platform for analysis. If anyone missing this point should realize that all should wait and see. 'Wait n See' is hard when there is no int'l criket for BD - that's understandable. Let's hope for the best and suggest ways how to help our team (in a way the coach as well) to prepare better.

[Gowza]

i can guarantee you that if a player really wants to be playing cricket and achieve their potential they won't need someone else to motivate them. you can find motivation out of anything if you look for it, the thing is though for the motivation to last it has to come from within not externally from say a coach. siddons can put something on the table which helps motivate a player but unless they take it and use it to drive themsevles then what siddons does won't help them.

anyway, from what siddons has said in the media, the national players should have got as much motivation as they needed. if siddons is telling the world how bad these players are then they should use that to motivate themselves so they can prove him wrong. if a player can't motivate themselves then they're in the wrong profession.

[kalpurush]

Originally Posted by AsifTheManRahman
A wise man once said, "Beat your kids". Russell Peters was right. All this criticism - constructive or not - will keep the receivers on their toes. Whether they deserve it is immaterial. Beat them even if they haven't done anything wrong. If tough love's what you want, no one shall be spared.

A Ten Grand post.