Dennis Prager's comments

[Arnab]

Originally Posted by Banglatiger84
I am sure they never had a Jewish senator......

...who whined about taking the oath touching the bible?

Mea culpa about the "non-muslim" thing. Does this mean the American Jews are the most liberal people on Earth?

[Arnab]

Originally Posted by Alien
Firstly, during Durga Puja or whatever they call it, people bring their statues and everything down in the street sometimes. I have seen it first hand myself. Often they take it on top of a truck along with 20 or so devotees and go around the city chanting (praying). How do I know this? Because they went past my house several times during their durga puja festival.

And when they do such things, they go past several mosques some of which filled with hardcore mullahs. They dont raise any issues nor does any one came out to condemn it.

Secondly, I don't know if you ever opened BTV or not. Because I used to remember at the beginning when the tv station opens at afternoon, they begin with someone reciting or preaching parts of bible, gita or holy book of Buddhist. And they did so for many years, as far as my memory goes. No one condemned it, no one again raised an issue.

So do you think if some TV rep would come in and bringing whatever doll or picture will offend people of BD? I am sorry but I think you are confusing us with Saudi Arabia.

Ok, maybe Bangladesh was not the brightest of analogies. Because we have had a decidedly hindu population living in Bengal thousands of years before the Muslim invasion.

But the complexion of America is totally different. It was founded by Christian Europeans. Very enlightened Christian Europeans of course, who gave us the bill of rights, freedom of speech, etc. etc. (mass murdering of native Americans and slavery notwithstanding).

But still, do you think you will not a read a report like Dennis Prager's here in some daily like Inqilab, etc. Bangladesh if a Hindu mp starts to flaunt his religion? What if he starts wearing tilok or whatever other signs like the Hindu extremist leaders in India? It's his right and nobody in Bangladesh will bother even to write an article about it, right?

[Alien]

Originally Posted by Arnab
Ok, maybe Bangladesh was not the brightest of analogies. Because we have had a decidedly hindu population living in Bengal thousands of years before the Muslim invasion.

But the complexion of America is totally different. It was founded by Christian Europeans. Very enlightened Christian Europeans of course, who gave us the bill of rights, freedom of speech, etc. etc. (mass murdering of native Americans and slavery notwithstanding).

But still, do you think you will not a read a report like Dennis Prager's here in some daily like Inqilab, etc. Bangladesh if a Hindu mp starts to flaunt his religion? What if he starts wearing tilok or whatever other signs like the Hindu extremist leaders in India? It's his right and nobody in Bangladesh will bother even to write an article about it, right?

Keith Ellision wasn't flaunting his religion neither was he a religious extremist. He was a black american muslim who choice of taking oath on Quran created a "stir" in Dennis Prager's "America". I am sorry but your comparison of a hindu extremist mp with shiv sena's tilok or whatever has no relevance here.

But when you will ask that question you asked above, you will get 2 type of answer. Yes and no. Yes from me and like minded people who care about how much they contribute to the government and welfare of people when they get elected to the office. He can carry a snake into the parliament for all I care so long he does a better job than our 2 lady politicians.

And No from many of the general people, including Jamaat, and those who aren't really fond of hindu icons and elements flourishing in a Muslim country as its strike unusual.

[Arnab]

Originally Posted by thebest
AFAIK (I may be wrong), jew can not be president of US of A. In that sense, we are more secular and separation of legislation and religion is more clear at least in this aspect. Our consititution at least does not bar anyone for being the cheif executive of country because of his religion.

You think there will ever be a Hindu PM in our country?

Why a senator has to take oath touching bible? People did not elect him for preaching religion. Why he have to show his loyality touching a holy book?

I guess because it's a long-standing custom (200+ years). And if he is truly loyal, why would touching a holy book matter? If the Jews can do it, why can't a Muslim? He knows fully well that by doing this thing, he's consciously breaking a custom here and, in the process, creating a controversy.

Why do politicians in BD start with Bismillah, taking the name of Allah (the Muslim God), all the time? People did not elect them for preaching religion, or did they? Why is there a customary 2 minute Quran telawat read by the token mollah before most of the seminars, shows, etc here in BD? And why don't people clamor for the token Hindu Brahmin or Buddhist monk to read their versions as well? Why are thousands of Mosques in Dhaka blaring their Azans with loud speakers five times a day, practically screaming to the world about Islam? Well, it's customary, part of the custom in a Muslim-dominated country. If you are a Hindu/Chrisitan living in BD, you will have to accept the fact that a mosque nearby will scream the Azan at you five times a day, that when you attend a function, chances are that there will be a Quran telawat and no Geeta or Bible reading.

What if a minority Hindu in Bangladesh files a suit against Azans, or against politicians using Bismillah in their speech? What do you think will happen to him?

[Banglatiger84]

Originally Posted by Arnab
You think there will ever be a Hindu PM in our country?



I guess because it's a long-standing custom (200+ years). And if he is truly loyal, why would touching a holy book matter? If the Jews can do it, why can't a Muslim? He knows fully well that by doing this thing, he's consciously breaking a custom here and, in the process, creating a controversy.

Why do politicians in BD start with Bismillah, taking the name of Allah (the Muslim God), all the time? People did not elect them for preaching religion, or did they? Why is there a customary 2 minute Quran telawat read by the token mollah before most of the seminars, shows, etc here in BD? And why don't people clamor for the token Hindu Brahmin or Buddhist monk to read their versions as well? Why are thousands of Mosques in Dhaka blaring their Azans with loud speakers five times a day, practically screaming to the world about Islam? Well, it's customary, part of the custom in a Muslim-dominated country. If you are a Hindu/Chrisitan living in BD, you will have to accept the fact that a mosque nearby will scream the Azan at you five times a day, that when you attend a function, chances are that there will be a Quran telawat and no Geeta or Bible reading.

What if a minority Hindu in Bangladesh files a suit against Azans, or against politicians using Bismillah in their speech? What do you think will happen to him?

Sorry, your attempt to link Prager's comments with a hypothetical situation in BD is completely irrelevant and not to mention, inaccurate.

I can rephrase your words and make it seem like Muslims in America have "Church Bells" screamed at them. And if a function has Quran recited, its probably because the majority of attendees are muslims. No One in BD would object to the Gita being recited at a Hindu majority function.

As for your last question, did any Muslim file a suit against Politicians using bibles?

A more appropriate question would be: Would Muslims in BD object if a Hindu DID NOT use Bismillah in his speech (dont forget Prager is mad coz the Senator DID NOT use the Bible), but knowing you, I am sure you intentionally made it seem like BD Muslims coerce minority Hindus into following Muslim traditions.

[al Furqaan]

well i think the bottom line is this:

the us constitution EXPLICITLY states that there is to be seperation of church and state...thats why the president is not also the head clergymen in the "US church".

bangladesh though a secular state (how many secular states have a state religion i must ask) has islam enshrined as its official dogma. fundementally, its ludicrious to compare US with bangladesh.

returning to the bottom line, if the quran is at odds with american values, then so too is the bible. secularism is anti-religion, so its diametrically paradoxical to say that any holy book is what one swears on. this is point.

similarily, prager's record must be examined to find his true motives. unlike most of you, i have read several dennis prager articles over the years and muslims are people he generally despises.

[Kabir]

Arnab bhai,

The only thing you mentioned that made some sense was in your last post about what happens in BD with the Islami telawat. Other than that, none of your arguments could convince me much. You are comparing two countries that are highly different. You're only complaining about the fact that the muslim senator wants to take his oath using Quran and not Bible? To what significance will his oath be of if he takes it using Bible? It's like a story book to the senator...and that wouldn't be, and shouldn't be, convincing enough for the americans if he takes his oath using Bible. If it's me, I would assume that he's lying while taking the oath at the very least.

And second, a question for you. Does US give holidays on Islamic, Hindu, and other holidays like they do to Christian and Jewish? Bangladesh does...not sure about Jewish, but for other holidays...including Hindu, Christian, Budhist, etc. So please, don't compare orange with apple.

Finally, the muslim Indian president a couple of years ago used to say nomoshkar when he used to get on the stage. Don't you think he should have had his right to say "Adab" to address the geral mass? The big Hindu figures in Bangladesh don't get up on the stage and say Salaam, they say either Adab. Azan isn't allowed in Canada...do we complain? Should we complain about it? Or should we just say..."oh it's nonsense"? Not gonna happen bro. The loud speakers in Bangladesh for the various Islamic onushthans disturbs me, and so does the loud Hindu Poojas where they go around with dhols and stuff, and sometimes even playing holi with me.

[Kabir]

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
similarily, prager's record must be examined to find his true motives. unlike most of you, i have read several dennis prager articles over the years and muslims are people he generally despises.

He's not the only one. I usually watch "Glen Beck" on CNN headline news. He's the most provocative person I've seen on media...and that's the part of the reason why I watch it. Coz everytime I watch it, it makes me hate him even more. And also, it prepares me for some of the flawed arguments like his that my colleagues have about Islam.

[Arnab]

Originally Posted by Banglatiger84
Sorry, your attempt to link Prager's comments with a hypothetical situation in BD is completely irrelevant and not to mention, inaccurate.

I don't think so. I think it's a perfectly valid hypothetical scenario.

I can rephrase your words and make it seem like Muslims in America have "Church Bells" screamed at them.

Church bells don't scream at all. And they don't happen five times a day either.

And if a function has Quran recited, its probably because the majority of attendees are muslims.

Even a seminar on Computer and Information technology? Look, it happens here all the time, almost everywhere, in non-religious functions.

As for your last question, did any Muslim file a suit against Politicians using bibles?

No, but a Muslim senator did create as much controversy by refusing to take his oath by touching the Bible and insisting on doing it with the Quran.

If you want a more palatable question: What if some Hindu parliament member on Bangladesh refused to take oath until the Bismillah was removed from the constitution?

A more appropriate question would be: Would Muslims in BD object if a Hindu DID NOT use Bismillah in his speech (dont forget Prager is mad coz the Senator DID NOT use the Bible),

No, the apt question would be: Would Muslims in BD object if a Hindu DID NOT use Bismillah in his speech AND at the same time, used Nomoshkar and wore a tilak in his speeches (dont forget Prager is mad coz the Senator DID NOT use the Bible AND wanted to use the Quran)?

The answer is obviously yes.

but knowing you, I am sure you intentionally made it seem like BD Muslims coerce minority Hindus into following Muslim traditions.

Um, no. What I am trying to point out is a rather different thing. I am saying there's no point in getting this much agitated about Prager's comments as you have done in your initial post. The situation is probably as much "bad "or even "worse" in any Muslim (or even Hindu) majority country.

I guess you can judge Bangladesh by one standard and judge the US by another. But I consider that double standard. These are human beings we are talking about, and these are how customs in any human societies develop. Every society has these kinds of "racist bigots". It's human nature to be a "racist bigot" at some level. Pager may seem like a bigot to you in an absolute standard, but when seen in context, he is no better or worse than a lot of people in Bangladeshi society. If I were you, I would take these with a grain of salt. That's all I'm saying.

[pagol-chagol]

Ellison should just say, "Don't you believe in my constitution? Go read the Bill of Rights."

[Banglatiger84]

Originally Posted by Arnab
Pager may seem like a bigot to you in an absolute standard, but when seen in context, he is no better or worse than a lot of people in Bangladeshi society. If I were you, I would take these with a grain of salt. That's all I'm saying.

I hate it when the response to "Mr.X did a bad thing" is "but Mr.Y did an even worse thing", so dont criticize Mr. X.

We all know Bangladesh has its ills, but here we are talking about the USA, not Bangladesh. In the other thread you were very critical about anyone using India's actions today to interpret its actions in 1971. But here you have no problem trying to downplay Prager's comments by asking us to see things "in context" to what happens in Bangladesh.

If Imtiz was being irrelevant, then so are you in this thread.

[thebest]

Arnab,
you are just twisting the words. I would ask only one question did Khaleda/Hasina giving speech with Quran in her side? Regarding Hindu PM, suranjit sen gupto is an imporatnt leader of BAL. Who knows what future hold? I have no problem with a Hindu PM.
Just like the Bigot Pager it seems that you also think touching Bible is simply a custom. But I think the founding fathers of USA put this, thinking touching holy book is the ultimate for showing allegiance to consititution. So Mr Elison should be applauded for understanding the spirit not ridiculed

[Arnab]

Originally Posted by Banglatiger84
I hate it when the response to "Mr.X did a bad thing" is "but Mr.Y did an even worse thing", so dont criticize Mr. X.

We all know Bangladesh has its ills, but here we are talking about the USA, not Bangladesh. In the other thread you were very critical about anyone using India's actions today to interpret its actions in 1971. But here you have no problem trying to downplay Prager's comments by asking us to see things "in context" to what happens in Bangladesh.

If Imtiz was being irrelevant, then so are you in this thread.

Not really. Alien asked us to give a comment on Prager and his take on it. And I gave mine. This isn't a bash-US only topic, it's much more open ended than the topic of what India did in 1971, which is more limited in scope and way before in the past. Plus Alien's opinion was vague. He was playing the often-used "us vs them" card when he said "filled with hatred against our religion". So I think that considerably broadens the scope of this discussion. I assume that the "us" in Alien's opinion refers to Bangladeshi muslims living anywhere, including Bangladesh. So I think it's fairly relevant to bring up what "we" might do in our own country in a hypothetical situation.

[Arnab]

Originally Posted by thebest
Just like the Bigot Pager it seems that you also think touching Bible is simply a custom. But I think the founding fathers of USA put this, thinking touching holy book is the ultimate for showing allegiance to consititution. So Mr Elison should be applauded for understanding the spirit not ridiculed

Look, I understand what you're talking about. But that doesn't make sense with all those Jewish Senators touching the Bible and taking their oaths all this time. Are you saying these Jewish Senators weren't showing the ultimate allegiance to the constitution?

One can twistedly say that if it is the spirit that counts the most, then may be it doesn't matter which holy book one touches. If that is true, then Prager can justifiably ask why Mr Elison is having such a problem?

This is quite an ethical problem, isn't it?

[Banglatiger84]

Originally Posted by Arnab

One can twistedly say that if it is the spirit that counts the most, then may be it doesn't matter which holy book one touches. If that is true, then Prager can justifiably ask why Mr Elison is having such a problem?

If its the spirit that counts the most, then Muslims can justifiably ask that Hindu leaders in Bangladesh begin speeches with Bismillah and invoke Quranic verses as a token. But thats not the case, American muslims often wish Christmas to non-Muslims in the holiday spirit, but its wrong to ask them to take oaths on a Bible.

[Arnab]

Originally Posted by Banglatiger84
If its the spirit that counts the most, then Muslims can justifiably ask that Hindu leaders in Bangladesh begin speeches with Bismillah and invoke Quranic verses as a token. But thats not the case, American muslims often wish Christmas to non-Muslims in the holiday spirit, but its wrong to ask them to take oaths on a Bible.

I don't think there's any shortcut right/wrong answer to this particular question. I am gonna leave it at that.

[Miraz]

Well, Arnab you are making some arguments and comparison which are not there.

Elison's refusal to take oath on bible and prefer Quran instead is no way analogous to a Hindu refusing to take oath unless Bismillah is removed from Constitution
- Elison is neither asking other senators not to take oath on bible nor he is demanding the withdrwal of the custom in general.

Elison being the fisrt ever Muslim senator in US and in analogy you are raising whether Bangladesh will accept any Hindu PM

I think you understand the difference between a senator and a PM. We had a good number of Hindu MP's, Ministers and currently have a good number of hindu secreataries. There is every possibility that Bangladesh will see a Hindu PM in future.

Your analogy between Elison taking oath on Quran and a hindu MP showing signs of hindu religion and recitation in TV interview stands nowhere.

In fact in Bangladesh, a number of TV programs shows hindu signs and religious recitation in different special programs 'Durga Puja', Swarswati Puja' and many others. State run TV starts their program everyday with recitation from holy books of every religion. I have never heard, seen or read any single protest from muslims (Mollah's or anyone else) about these.

And in case of oath taking, similar situation does not exist as all MP's and minister takes oath using words which does not include anything about religious belief. Bangladesh seems to be more moderate than America.

Majority people in Bangladesh do celebrate religious festivals of all religion with great festivity and sharing. State run media gives proper attention and state provide holidays and other facilities.

I am not concerned about your argument about Mr. Elison's practice or about the political correctness regarding the issue. But, when you compare the situation with Bangladesh and make some analogy, you simply lose your case.

[Arnab]

Originally Posted by Miraz
I am not concerned about your argument about Mr. Elison's practice or about the political correctness regarding the issue. But, when you compare the situation with Bangladesh and make some analogy, you simply lose your case.

Oh really. What do you think my "case" is, Justice Miraz?

[Banglatiger84]

Originally Posted by Miraz

And in case of oath taking, similar situation does not exist as all MP's and minister takes oath using words which does not include anything about religious belief. Bangladesh seems to be more moderate than America.

Oh no, you are absolutely wrong. Hindus in BD are forced to be tortured by Azan and seeing Masajid. Its a shame that we force them to see Muslim places of worship and to hear the Azan . We dont allow minorities to celebrate their holidays, and force them to work on Christman/Dura Puja.

On the other hand, this senator seems to be wanting everything his way. He is already getting so much freedom ,yet he insists on insulting the Bible and wants to destroy Christian traditions .

[Arnab]

[quote=Miraz;359414]Well, Arnab you are making some arguments and comparison which are not there.

Elison's refusal to take oath on bible and prefer Quran instead is no way analogous to a Hindu refusing to take oath unless Bismillah is removed from Constitution
- Elison is neither asking other senators not to take oath on bible nor he is demanding the withdrwal of the custom in general.

Well, we are considering two different kinds of states here, so it's hard to come up with a perfect analogy. The US has maintained a difference between church and state, while Bangladesh introduced Bismillah in the constitution via Zia and Islam as a state religion via Ershad.

Keeping that in mind, any Hindu who takes an oath as an MP these days is basically taking an oath acknowledging the Bismillah in the constitution and accepting Islam as a state religion.

It's almost similar to how Senator Ellison will have to take his oath using the Bible. At least similar enough for me to make a general point.

Elison being the fisrt ever Muslim senator in US and in analogy you are raising whether Bangladesh will accept any Hindu PM

I think you understand the difference between a senator and a PM. We had a good number of Hindu MP's, Ministers and currently have a good number of hindu secreataries. There is every possibility that Bangladesh will see a Hindu PM in future.

Well, I hardly believe that's possible. Maybe in India they can have a Muslim president. But us having a Hindu PM? Give me a break.

Your analogy between Elison taking oath on Quran and a hindu MP showing signs of hindu religion and recitation in TV interview stands nowhere.

Oh I think it does stand somewhere.

In fact in Bangladesh, a number of TV programs shows hindu signs and religious recitation in different special programs 'Durga Puja', Swarswati Puja' and many others. State run TV starts their program everyday with recitation from holy books of every religion. I have never heard, seen or read any single protest from muslims (Mollah's or anyone else) about these.

This is not in any way similar to oath taking.

And in case of oath taking, similar situation does not exist as all MP's and minister takes oath using words which does not include anything about religious belief. Bangladesh seems to be more moderate than America.

But remember, Bangladesh didn't even have a functioning parliamentary democracy before 1991, let alone oath-taking by senators for 200+ years. American custom of oath-taking using the Bible is much older than the age of our democracy. Hell, our country is only 35 years old itself.

All I am saying that I expect that some Americans, to whom traditional values have been passed on to via older generations, will react like this if a custom like this is violated, and doing so doesn't automatically make these Americans outright bigots "filled with hatred towards our religion".

Majority people in Bangladesh do celebrate religious festivals of all religion with great festivity and sharing. State run media gives proper attention and state provide holidays and other facilities.

Sure, but the situation is different in America. Muslims are a tiny minority here, and there's even fewer Muslims that are involved in politics. But I am sure that Muslims, Jews and other religious minorities can have plenty of festivals in the US without breaking any laws as well. In any case, I don't see the point of this example.

[Arnab]

Originally Posted by Banglatiger84
Oh no, you are absolutely wrong. Hindus in BD are forced to be tortured by Azan and seeing Masajid. Its a shame that we force them to see Muslim places of worship and to hear the Azan . We dont allow minorities to celebrate their holidays, and force them to work on Christman/Dura Puja.

On the other hand, this senator seems to be wanting everything his way. He is already getting so much freedom ,yet he insists on insulting the Bible and wants to destroy Christian traditions .

Cheap shot.

[Miraz]

Arnab, It seems that you have a set mindframe and not ready to take anything outside your frame.

From my point of view, I don't think its wise to elaborate the discussion with you as we will never reach anywhere.

My last words,

Bangladesh is a young country but has got some values and traditions for thousand years inherited from its very old civilization (I guess its older than America). As a country (even in 35 years), it showed some unique equalness in opportunity between the minority and majority. In general, Bangladeshi people do not possess any sort of religious hatred against another religion. Its religious co-existence is no-way similar to India or Pakistan. Bangladeshi people don't differentiate between people based on their religious belief. Its much more moderate than its portrayed in the world media. I have got friends and students from every religious belief, never heard of any generalized and religion specific oppression from the society.

I know my country and countrymen very well as I lived there for 31 years. I have got very little idea about America as I have never been there. So, I am refraining myself from any comments about America.

I have got respect for your views but please don't unnecessarily undermine the values and tradition of Bangladesh to find some analogy for the sake of analogy.

[Arnab]

Originally Posted by Miraz
Arnab, It seems that you have a set mindframe and not ready to take anything outside your frame.

Not really, no.

From my point of view, I don't think its wise to elaborate the discussion with you as we will never reach anywhere.

Sure.

Bangladesh is a young country but has got some values and traditions for thousand years inherited from its very old civilization (I guess its older than America).

Sure, but not the western democratic tradition.

As a country (even in 35 years), it showed some unique equalness in opportunity between the minority and majority. In general, Bangladeshi people do not possess any sort of religious hatred against another religion. Its religious co-existence is no-way similar to India or Pakistan. Bangladeshi people don't differentiate between people based on their religious belief. Its much more moderate than its portrayed in the world media. I have got friends and students from every religious belief, never heard of any generalized and religion specific oppression from the society.

Hmm...I wish what you are saying were 100% right. It is mostly true. But not always.

I know my country and countrymen very well as I lived there for 31 years. I have got very little idea about America as I have never been there. So, I am refraining myself from any comments about America.

Well, I have lived both in America and in Bangladesh for a significant number of years. So I guess my viewpoint will be different from yours.

And my analogies require that a person be somewhat well-aware of the situation in both the countries. Taking my comparisons out of that context and reading them from a Bangladesh-only view, like you have done here, will generate a skewed version of what I was talking about and may seem even anti-Bangladesh. But obviously, that's not my intention here.

I have got respect for your views but please don't unnecessarily undermine the values and tradition of Bangladesh to find some analogy for the sake of analogy.

I don't think I was "unnecessarily undermining the values and tradition" of Bangladesh. I am a Bangladeshi myself and am well aware of our "values and traditions". But when someone among us call some American a "racial bigot filled with hatred towards our religion" but doesn't, in my eyes, provide a good reason behind saying that, I think I am justified in making the comparisons I made.

I think the topic at hand is an interesting, but sensitive issue and I find your take on my view unfortunate.

[Alien]

Originally Posted by Arnab
Not really. Alien asked us to give a comment on Prager and his take on it. And I gave mine. This isn't a bash-US only topic, it's much more open ended than the topic of what India did in 1971, which is more limited in scope and way before in the past. Plus Alien's opinion was vague. He was playing the often-used "us vs them" card when he said "filled with hatred against our religion". So I think that considerably broadens the scope of this discussion. I assume that the "us" in Alien's opinion refers to Bangladeshi muslims living anywhere, including Bangladesh. So I think it's fairly relevant to bring up what "we" might do in our own country in a hypothetical situation.

When I said "us" i was refering to Muslims in general, irrespective of country.

Prager's article was about a black american muslim taking oath on Quran, I don't see how you can link it with BD muslims as he never mentioned BD Muslims in his article.

[Arnab]

Originally Posted by Alien
When I said "us" i was refering to Muslims in general, irrespective of country.

Prager's article was about a black american muslim taking oath on Quran, I don't see how you can link it with BD muslims as he never mentioned BD Muslims in his article.

I linked it to BD muslims only because you said "us", and since most of us are Bangladeshis here, it seemed easy to bring up hypothetical examples that relate to us.

And I don't quite like your use of "us" referring to only muslims here. BanglaCricket is not exactly a Muslim forum, it's more like a Bangladeshi forum irrespective of religion or geographical location.