{2004} Bangladesh defeat will cause introuduction of three tier system?

[Zobair]

Guys! this is turning out to be a very intersting thread. We need to have such debates so that we can scratch more just what is on the "surface" of the issue. If vvsunil hadn't brought up the topic we wouldn't have heard some of the very compelling and sound arguements that expose the falacy of such a move (tiering the current test nations).

However, I urge you to keep the discussions relevant to the topic at hand and avoid personal attacks! Making disparaging comments about someone else's country, ethinicity etc. is not helpful and is contrary to the rules and guidelines of our forum. Thank you for your cooperation. Please continue.


[Moderator]

[cricketfan]

Greetings to you all

It was a pleasant surprise to know that I was the 600th member of this forum. That makes me feel like what Brian Lara felt at 400*. My pleasure is even more on knowing that my post was appreciated. I hope I have set the ball rolling in proper direction away from acrimonious emotional outpourings. Some other participants have also expressed the same feelings that casting aspersions on others is not proper and the discussion should stick to the topic. This encourages me to contribute some more of my thoughts which I hope you will find interesting.

All International sportsmen, cricketers included, are well equipped in their sport, physically, mentally as well as emotionally. Still some players and teams are more successful than others. What is it that sets them apart from the rest ?

The answer is, the above three factors enable one to become good participants,but there is a fourth factor that separates the best from the rest. It is spirit(or passion or faith or belief). Spirit is the power that propels us past our mental,emotional and physical limitations.

If one plays without spirit one needs to get externally motivated frequently and shortage of this external motivation gives rise to self doubts and resultant drop in performance. If one plays with spirit, the motivation comes from within. This self motivation sustains itself in a player and help raise the playing standard quite considerably. It turbo charges the player and the team.

Let us take some real examples. In Tennis, Jimmy Connors used to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat against players who were technically better equipped than him,because Connors was able to get himself roused into the turbo charged zone which gave him extra energy to turn the tables on his opponents. To take an example from nearby, Leander Paes, the Indian tennis player has a very modest record in singles, but in Davis cup play, he was able to rouse himself into the zone and he could defeat any player in singles however high his ranking. Interestingly, Paes could raise himself to play above himself only when he was playing for his country. He would lose tamely to the same player if playing him in an individual tournament.

To take the example of cricket, Pakistan were constantly able to raise their game against India and win from impossible situations till a few years back. Interestingly, Pakistan were able to raise their game only against India. They were largely flat against teams like Australia and South Africa.

Why Pakistan could not beat India this time the way they used to do till recently? Why they could not bring their spirit into play this time? The answer, according to me, is they were not allowed to bring their spirit into play by India.

India have grown extremely tough in the last few years. They had the physical, mental and emotional strengths in the past also, but now they have added spirit (passion) which has almost gone unnoticed by most people.

When the crunch comes and the match/series is in the balance, the Indians can now raise their game, something which Pakistan were able to do against India in the past and change the complexion of the game/series.

In the 4th ODI, India were on the mat. Shoaib Akhtar was on fire and top Indian batsmen e.g. Tendulkar, Sehwag, Ganguli, Laxman were all at sea. One could make out that they were not able to see the deliveries of Shoaib and Sami. In reply to a huge target of 293, India seemed down and out at 4 down for 90 odd runs.
Rahul Dravid was still there. He frustrated the Pakistani bowlers so much in the company of Yuvraj and then Kaif that the spirit of Pakistan was broken.

A batsman like Lara can take a match away from the opposition but he cannot break the spirit of the opposition. The opposition feel that they have a chance in the next game. That is not the case with Dravid. He frustrates the opposition so much that the opposition gets dispirited for the whole series and for the future as well. This was proved in the third test where again the series was in the balance with India at 130 for 3 replying to Pak total of 200+. Shoaib was on fire again, but the sight of Dravid and the memory of the ODI series came to haunt him. He got dispirited and got injured,never to come back again in the match to bowl. Shoaib has been widely condemned for not bowling again. Shoaib can bowl well when injured as he has been proving nowa days, but most people have not taken into account the effect Dravid had on him. Dravid can frustrate the opposition and suck their spirit for a long time. That is why I think Dravid is the most dangerous batsman in the world. He changes the course of present as well as future matches.Next time when Pakistan plays India, they will still be haunted and will not be able to play to the best of their ability against India.

Javed Miandad did it to India in 1986. India were ahead of Pakistan for 99.5 overs and only one more ball was left to be bowled. That one ball,which went for the winning six broke India's spirit against Pakistan for next 15 years. Thus Miandad decided the results of Indo-Pak matches for next 15 years with that single stroke.

Steve Waugh of Australia is the biggest spirit breaker of recent times. His knocks against South Africa in tests and ODIs broke the spirit of South Africa so much that till date they have not been able to recover and they continue to lose to Australia rather tamely. Same is the case of England against Australia.

Thus spirit in the team acts two ways. It helps raise the level of one's team and helps break the spirit of the opposition ,thus softening them much more effectively than a bouncer.

Australia have been world champions because of their ability to do irreparable psychological damage to the opponents by breaking their spirit. India were the only team who refused to get browbeaten because they have also learnt to do the same to the opposition. That is why their forthcoming series is so eagerly awaited. Both are spirited teams and it is to be seen who can break the spirit of the other.

In "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban", a film released recently, Dementors are the most feared creatures because they suck the soul of people. Both teams are full of cricketing Dementors and that is why their clash is as eagerly awaited as the above mentioned Harry Potter film.

My opinion is that one needs spirit(passion) in whatever one does to maximise one's output. BD should look to turbo charge their team by learning to play with passion. It is not that only top teams can show passion. Any team can learn to play with passion and overachieve. That is what Kenya did in the previous world cup and Zimbabwe did in the world cup prior to that.

In the just concluded test series of WI v BD, BD did enough in the first test for Lara to threaten to resign if WI did not win the second test. In effect BD had managed to bring down WI spirits. It is clear that the absence of Whatmore for the second test robbed BD of the external motivation that the BD players needed regularly. If the BD players could have learnt to play with passion, they would not have missed Whatmore's motivational talks. They could have stayed motivated on their own and who knows, WI would have had a new captain in future. Just imagine what disarray this could have caused in the WI cricket. I felt that BD missed a golden chance of playing Dementors against WI in the second test.

This has become an agonisingly long post. I wonder if it fits in one page. I even wonder if my thought process will be too complicated for most other participants.It has become long because I wanted to add some examples to illustrate my point. I wonder wether this should have been posted to the articles column instead of this forum. In any case, I eagerly awit your response to this post.

Thanks again.

[Edited on 13-6-2004 by cricketfan]

[chinaman]

Dear cricketfan

May we post it in the front page as an article? Thanks in advance.

[cricketfan]

Dear Super Moderator,
I will be delighted if my post finds place as an article. In that case,the last paragraph will not be required.

Thanks

[chinaman]

Thank you for your kind permission.

I sent a private U2U message to you. Please check the u2u from the upper right hand corner of any forum page. You have to be logged in and may need to refresh the page to see the u2u.

[cricketfan]

I have corrected the Typos that had crept in my previous post.
Thanks

[Edited on 13-6-2004 by cricketfan]

[Edited on 13-6-2004 by cricketfan]

[vv_sunil]

cricketfan

u posted the most positive writing so far in this thread.. nice one!


otherwise this thread is all filled with wreckless comments(about BD standard) and emotional outbursts in reply (very natural.... n i guess some of my earlier replies r also here)!!
It's probably gonna hold the record of being started with an 'objectionable' title yet getting highest responses I suppose!
carry on ppl...
================================================== =================
You know what? This discussion is one of the most import topics I have ever seen in this forum. Some of the writings in this discussion are so great. I could tell you guys that only these types of writing can save Bangladesh cricket as well as world cricket from 3 or 2-tire ICC system. Pease post couple of articles from this discussion and let the ICC or G(d)anguly know about our thinking.
================================================== =================
keeping the discussion on topic!

Guys! this is turning out to be a very intersting thread. We need to have such debates so that we can scratch more just what is on the "surface" of the issue. If vvsunil hadn't brought up the topic we wouldn't have heard some of the very compelling and sound arguements that expose the falacy of such a move (tiering the current test nations).

However, I urge you to keep the discussions relevant to the topic at hand and avoid personal attacks! Making disparaging comments about someone else's country, ethinicity etc. is not helpful and is contrary to the rules and guidelines of our forum. Thank you for your cooperation. Please continue.


[Moderator]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++

i was thinking like that when this issue clicked in my mind n i wanted to share the feelings of others. im sorry, if i hurt some others feeling

h/ever, cricket fan has diverted the discusions in the topic again and i appreciate such kind of realistic views.

thanks to all....

i feel this thread should forward to icc, to express the concern of all of us n im sure it will make a strong impact in the mind of icc body

[rafik]

Very bad comments from mr. sunil.

not even brave performance?

400 in debut test!!!!!!!

[AsifTheManRahman]

once again: the three tier system is unrealistic, and the icc don't have the guts to implement it.

i myself want a 2/3tier system, since it will be good for the development of the ICC associate teams who otherwise dont play in too many tournaments.it will help improve their standard and produce more test teams and more competitive teams.

it is very much possible to have a 2/3tier system keeping bangladesh in the 1st tier.

reyme,

Amit, lets not cry loud showing that you are huge die hard BD fan, on a given BD-IND match you will LOVE to see BD lose as bad as possible.

i am not pretending to be a BD fan. i became a BD fan cing the support for ind in the u-19 wc. i being an indian, would love to c IND win by a huge margin in a BD-IND match and c BD lose as bad as possible, but thats due to my indian support.

Nobody did any favor for BD test status, they have earned it, OKAY! They became ICC CHAMPS by soundly beating strong Scotland, Holland, UAE, they beat under 19 ENG & WI and proved that they were the best team available in the WORLD at that time to join as a test playing nation.

Dalmiya did not play for BD team OKAY, but yes willingly or not willingly he did suppot BD cause. So he must be considered as one of the well wishers of BD cricket. ALL the test playing countries supported that cause due to BD's performance, cricketing structures, lobbying, fans and so on. If all those were not in place, they could not have earned it. So read my lips, they have EARNED IT!!

Just because PAK lost to BD, you cant prove that PAK lost intentionally. They might have but we can also say that PAK lost to IND in one of the WC matches which was also widely spoken of, what about that? If PAK lost, it was because of MONEY from the bookies, not because they wanted to give test status to BD, and same goes when PAK lost to IND in the WC. Looks like you got some favor from PAK as well. And if IND was so friendly for BD cricket how come they did not lose to BD to help them with test status?

Now even if PAK lost to BD intentionally, that alone did not factor in for the BD test status. Did PAK play for BD, when BD became ICC champs, did Dalmiya batted for BD, when BD clinched the the bearth for World Cup? NO, so please dont let BD down, give them credit for whatever they have done to achieve the test status.

i have realised my mistake and i apologiseif any of my posts hurt the feelings of BD fans. i c that BD got test status by majority and on their own strength.

Nobody thought, including India, that BD will put Pak on the verge of a defeat, and give a nail biters to WI and ENG just 1 year ago. So BD is improving, and doing it fast. Just 2 years ago India was soundly beaten by NZ. They avoided PAK for several years to avoid defeats. So just because you are doing good at this time, lets not forget the near past. My point is not to show that India is a bad team or so, this is just to show that all the teams have their good and bad times, and it does not mean that they will be criticized or humiliated. Ganguly might not have name name BD, but finger was pointed to BD, no doubt about that. I did not SEE that happening when India was experiencing innings defeats, batting collapse, and humiliation against NZ. So my point here is clear.

i know that BD is improving and i had predicted a BD win over WI a month before the series began. BD did put up brave fights drawing tests, losing odis by 1 wickets and taking windies to last over.
also if BD batsman can score 250+ regularly in odis, then BD would achieve a few wins and have a 20-30 success rate as well

It is true that India has a better bowling and batting side than BD at this moment, but it took them long time to be at this stage. Five years ago, nobody thought IND could be in such a glorious position. So when you say BD cant beat IND in the next 15 years it really shows you are not thinking positively and proves your negative support for BD.

A true fan should always hope for the best for his team and alwyas hope that we have a chance for a victory even in the next match. As a fan of BD team, I want to see them win even in the next match. I am very optimistic within a year or two, when we get some of our best bowlers back in the lineup recovering from the injury, and some of the good and seasoned batsmen in place through little bit more experiene, BD can beat any team on any given good day. You dont have to wait until your children grow up, you will see within 2 years that BD beating IND. As a true fan thats what I believe, I know in my heart thats what we will DO.

i am a true fan with a positive BD support. when i say BD wont beat IND for the next 10/15 years, that is due to indian support.

[cricketfan]

Hello again,

Nice to see that the tone and tenor of posts in this thread is changing for the better. A few participants have realised that they could have expressed their views without hurting the sentiments of others. Some participants have even been gracious enough to apologise for inadvertently hurting the feelings of others.I hope that the cold wave era is over, warm feelings will now prevail.

In my earlier post, I mentioned about the power of spirit(passion) and how it keeps one self motivated in the face of setbacks.I gave the example of some players and teams. I also mentioned that passion helps in every walk of life, not just sports.

These days we hear about psychologists who give pep talks to people to keep them motivated. In cricket, most of the professional teams avail of the services of sports psychologists. This may give the impression that service of psychologists is a must to instill passion in a person or team.

It is not always so. There are some persons who can stay passionate on their own for a long time. To confine us to cricket, the example is cricket fans. Every test team has its legion of die hard fans.

As far as ranking of passionate test teams is concerned, I mentioned that Australia and India are the two most passionate teams in the world. Who is no. 1 will be determined during their forthcoming clash in India later this year.

Can the fans of different test teams be ranked in the order of passionate fan following, the way passionate test teams are ranked?

We can determine the degree of passion associated with the fans of a particular country. So far I have not devised a digital passionometer to measure it, but one can measure it by indirect inference and can atleast determine the most passionate group of fans.

As I mentioned earlier, passion (or spirit) keeps a person self motivated in the face of setbacks. So,by this definition,a set of cricket fans who keep their spirit up despite their team suffering numerous setbacks is more passinate than another set of cricket fans whose team has suffered much less setbacks.

To put it simply, if a team keeps on winning regularly, it is easy for the fans of that team to stay passionate about their team. It takes considerably more passion to keep supporting your team if it starts losing and keeps losing.

It is much easier to be an Australian or Indian fan these days. West Indians fans have lost much of their passion for cricket now that their cricketers are no longer world beaters.

On the other hand the number of BD cricket fans has not declined a bit in the last 5 years despite their team losing almost every match during this period.To keep up the passion for cricket despite such a disappointing record by their team is phenomenal.It takes infinite faith ( spirit/passion) to be a BD cricket fan.It beats the passion displayed for cricket by the fans of other countries by a big margin.So it is a no contest.BD cricket fans are the undisputed holders of the title of the most passionate cricket fans of the world.

It is therefore a big surprise how the BD national team is unable to get infected by the bug of passion despite being surrounded by the most passionate cricket followers of the world.Maybe their immunity system is too strong. One hopes that sooner, rather than later,the BD players will succumb to it.

Thanks

[Edited on 16-6-2004 by cricketfan]

[200SX]

i think nothing gona happen like three tier system, it juz [].....juz try to keep out cricket from some arised problem such as raceism in zim.......so cheers n say long live tigers

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by chinaman : moderation]

[rafik]

Bangladesh will beat India next couple of years

[vv_sunil]

Bangladesh will beat India next couple of years

==========================

v, like any other want to improve bangladesh to that much standard. h/ever, being an indian we want india to win the match by huge margin.

but i dont understand, y mr.rafique is always pointing-out his fingers against india, without considering the fact that india have lot of bd supporters>>>>>

brother, v r not against bd, but infact v r supporting u,,, try to understand

[vv_sunil]

WAKE UP BANGLADESH AND PUT MORE EFFORTS.... AT LEAST 4 WINS SHOULD BE REGISTERED IN COMING ASIA CUP. ... otherwise, the following news is very disturbing to bd fans as bd failed to beat WI in the last one day series...

===========================
news source - cricinfo:
Ireland romp to famous victory

Wisden Cricinfo staff

June 17, 2004



Ireland 295 for 4 (Bray 71, Molins 66, O'Brien 58*) beat West Indians 292 for 7 (Bravo 100*) by 6 wickets
Scorecard


Ireland followed their victory against Surrey earlier this season with an even more impressive win against the West Indians by six wickets at Belfast. After a century from Dwayne Bravo helped his side to a more-than-competitive 292 for 4, Jeremy Bray and Jason Molins set the platform before Niall O'Brien led Ireland to victory with more than three overs to spare.

Chasing 296 to win, Ireland got off to an impressive start when Molins and Bray put on 111 for the opening stand.

==============================
For Ireland, on the other hand, this victory further increased their claims for playing international cricket after recent victories against Zimbabwe and Surrey. Adrian Birrell, their coach, said: "I knew we could beat them and I'm delighted we've proved to a wider audience what Irish cricket is capable of achieving."

"Forget 1969, this is the game we will all be talking about now" added Peter Thompson, head of Ireland's Cricket Union. "It's a great day for Irish cricket and I'm sure there will be many more to come."

Ireland may soon get their chance to shine on the big stage if they qualify for the 2007 World Cup in next year's ICC Trophy, which they are hosting
============================

[sageX]

Originally posted by vv_sunil
WAKE UP BANGLADESH AND PUT MORE EFFORTS.... AT LEAST 4 WINS SHOULD BE REGISTERED IN COMING ASIA CUP. ... otherwise, the following news is very disturbing to bd fans as bd failed to beat WI in the last one day series...

===========================
news source - cricinfo:
Ireland romp to famous victory

Wisden Cricinfo staff

June 17, 2004



Ireland 295 for 4 (Bray 71, Molins 66, O'Brien 58*) beat West Indians 292 for 7 (Bravo 100*) by 6 wickets
Scorecard


Ireland followed their victory against Surrey earlier this season with an even more impressive win against the West Indians by six wickets at Belfast. After a century from Dwayne Bravo helped his side to a more-than-competitive 292 for 4, Jeremy Bray and Jason Molins set the platform before Niall O'Brien led Ireland to victory with more than three overs to spare.

Chasing 296 to win, Ireland got off to an impressive start when Molins and Bray put on 111 for the opening stand.

==============================
For Ireland, on the other hand, this victory further increased their claims for playing international cricket after recent victories against Zimbabwe and Surrey. Adrian Birrell, their coach, said: "I knew we could beat them and I'm delighted we've proved to a wider audience what Irish cricket is capable of achieving."

"Forget 1969, this is the game we will all be talking about now" added Peter Thompson, head of Ireland's Cricket Union. "It's a great day for Irish cricket and I'm sure there will be many more to come."

Ireland may soon get their chance to shine on the big stage if they qualify for the 2007 World Cup in next year's ICC Trophy, which they are hosting
============================

We are up. But vv_shunil you are probably not. Look at the WI team carefully against Irland. Do you find some player missing. Ok No problem let me point them out for you.

Batsman:

Sarwan: (Scored 260 in test)

Bowler:

Tino Best
Collins: (remember his swing you watched the game until 4)
Edwards
Sarwan
Banks

What do you think about that. Thanks again.

[vv_sunil]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by vv_sunil
WAKE UP BANGLADESH AND PUT MORE EFFORTS.... AT LEAST 4 WINS SHOULD BE REGISTERED IN COMING ASIA CUP. ... otherwise, the following news is very disturbing to bd fans as bd failed to beat WI in the last one day series...

===========================
news source - cricinfo:
Ireland romp to famous victory

Wisden Cricinfo staff

June 17, 2004



Ireland 295 for 4 (Bray 71, Molins 66, O'Brien 58*) beat West Indians 292 for 7 (Bravo 100*) by 6 wickets
Scorecard


Ireland followed their victory against Surrey earlier this season with an even more impressive win against the West Indians by six wickets at Belfast. After a century from Dwayne Bravo helped his side to a more-than-competitive 292 for 4, Jeremy Bray and Jason Molins set the platform before Niall O'Brien led Ireland to victory with more than three overs to spare.

Chasing 296 to win, Ireland got off to an impressive start when Molins and Bray put on 111 for the opening stand.

==============================
For Ireland, on the other hand, this victory further increased their claims for playing international cricket after recent victories against Zimbabwe and Surrey. Adrian Birrell, their coach, said: "I knew we could beat them and I'm delighted we've proved to a wider audience what Irish cricket is capable of achieving."

"Forget 1969, this is the game we will all be talking about now" added Peter Thompson, head of Ireland's Cricket Union. "It's a great day for Irish cricket and I'm sure there will be many more to come."

Ireland may soon get their chance to shine on the big stage if they qualify for the 2007 World Cup in next year's ICC Trophy, which they are hosting
============================
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



We are up. But vv_shunil you are probably not. Look at the WI team carefully against Irland. Do you find some player missing. Ok No problem let me point them out for you.

Batsman:

Sarwan: (Scored 260 in test)

Bowler:

Tino Best
Collins: (remember his swing you watched the game until 4)
Edwards
Sarwan
Banks

What do you think about that. Thanks again.

============================

agree, but look into their recent good performances... they beat zim, surrey, now wi.

bangladesh should register atleast 4 wins in next asia cup.... v all are with u

[sageX]

Thanx vv_shunil.