Jalil, Bhuiyan rip into Yunus on political bashing

[Special 1]

Originally Posted by Alien
I think you are terribly wrong. The microcredit system was intended to stive innovation amongst the country's rural poor. Giving them enough money to start small businesses. Its loan and not charity donation. And because it's a loan, it's meant to be repaid and only way to repay is to get money back by investing into something. May it be growing pumpkins in the garden or whatever.

It's better to focus on how to reduce poverty rather than what to do when poverty diminishes because that ain't going to happen. Definitely not in our life time, given the way things are going.

And also, it's not Grameen Bank's job to ensure that poor people to be innovative. It's the government's job via education and welfare system. You are blaming the wrong people. So Abdul Jalil and his BNP counterpart should learn to accept criticism rather than throw some rubbish out for the sake of arguing with him.

Okay your post does not tell me where I am terribly wrong?

I never said it is Grameen banks duty to do anything. Neither did I say anything about our politicians. I also did not in any manner say that Grameen bank gives out money for free.
How do you know poverty is not going to be reduced in our lifetime?
And I think it is essential that we focus on both sectors (poverty reducing and the other) in order to develop faster.
I dont know whether you have read the news. But Sen came to Bangladesh this winter, he did mention that microcredit alone will not get poor poeplr out of their misery. Other steps are needed.
All I expressed was a concern that Bangladesh might get too reliant on microcredit and they shouldnt be for its own benefit.

[layperson]

BBgun, why do you think Bangladesh might get over relient on microcredit? I agree to all the points Alien pointed out and I also agree to what you said that microcredit itself will not reduce poverty. However It is not Grameen bank's job to ensure other steps are taken. They are doing their bit in helping reduce poverty, now the onus is on the goverment to make sure they provide proper educational facilities, training and other relevant opportunities to the rural people to fight poverty. I just wanted to know the basis for your assumption that BD will become over reliant on microcredit.

[Special 1]

Originally Posted by shahriyar
BBgun, why do you think Bangladesh might get over relient on microcredit? I agree to all the points Alien pointed out and I also agree to what you said that microcredit itself will not reduce poverty. However It is not Grameen bank's job to ensure other steps are taken. They are doing their bit in helping reduce poverty, now the onus is on the goverment to make sure they provide proper educational facilities, training and other relevant opportunities to the rural people to fight poverty. I just wanted to know the basis for your assumption that BD will become over reliant on microcredit.

Because of the limelight Yunus is getting. He believes that microcredit by itself can get rid of poverty (or atleast did even a few years ago).
It is not Grameen banks job, I agree. And Prof. Yunus should make sure that Bangladesh dose not get too hung up on his idea. Thats all i am saying.

[Alien]

Originally Posted by BBgun
Okay your post does not tell me where I am terribly wrong?

What you said below is what I felt was wrong.

I feel that Prof. Yunus, because he recieved the noble prize, gets tremendous attention from the media.

Yep, he did get a lot of media exposure, but that's only because he is doing a hell of a good job. Unlike our politicians. And because of that, he got the Nobel Prize.

I never said it is Grameen banks duty to do anything.


Neither did I say anything about our politicians. I also did not in any manner say that Grameen bank gives out money for free.

But you said Grameen Bank does not ensure innovation as below.

For prosperity to come about in Bangladesh we have to make sure that these poor people have the chance or capability to innovate. Grameen bank does not ensure that.

My point with all the politicians and charity was that, it's not Grameen Bank's job to ensure Innovation. Its the Government's job which they have been ignoring since the country got independent.

How do you know poverty is not going to be reduced in our lifetime?

I don't know, but the way things are going, it will take either a long time or most likely the situation will keep on getting worse. Has corruption decreased? No. Is our population under control? No.

Nothing spectacular hasn't happened yet that will ensure that poverty will be reduced in our lifetime.

And I think it is essential that we focus on both sectors (poverty reducing and the other) in order to develop faster.
I dont know whether you have read the news. But Sen came to Bangladesh this winter, he did mention that microcredit alone will not get poor poeplr out of their misery. Other steps are needed.

I agree, that's where the Government again comes into the picture million times.

All I expressed was a concern that Bangladesh might get too reliant on microcredit and they shouldnt be for its own benefit.

Kono kichur excess bhalo na. Same goes for micro credit. But as of the moment we don't here any bad effects of microcredits. Yes it does put people in debt but that debt is very minimal. But with no proper welfare system in our country, microcredit is the way to go.

[Alien]

Originally Posted by BBgun
Because of the limelight Yunus is getting. He believes that microcredit by itself can get rid of poverty (or atleast did even a few years ago).
It is not Grameen banks job, I agree. And Prof. Yunus should make sure that Bangladesh dose not get too hung up on his idea. Thats all i am saying.

He is making sure that entire BD rural does not get hung up. They way microcredit works is by dividing, say a village, into groups who want to borrow. Say a group of 5. Once a person get's the loan, he must repay else other's don't get any loan.

That method keeps it under check and ensure the entire poor community doesn't get bigger "debts", and Grameen Bank doesn't end up with massive bad debt. It's also in Grameen Bank's interest to keep it in check.

And Bangladesh has bigger and more serious problems to worry about than being hung by microcredit. If western world can have billions of dollars in credit card debts with 10% or more interest, and still be financially secure, then I don't see why BD can't handle microcredit debt, which is being kept in check.

[shujan]

Originally Posted by BBgun
Because of the limelight Yunus is getting. He believes that microcredit by itself can get rid of poverty (or atleast did even a few years ago).
It is not Grameen banks job, I agree. And Prof. Yunus should make sure that Bangladesh dose not get too hung up on his idea. Thats all i am saying.

BBgun may I ask to clarify your view?
Why do you think it is not Grameen Banks job to get rid of poverty at all? or
Why do you think it is not Grameen Banks job to reduce proverty? or
Why do you think it is Grameen Banks Job to get rid of poverty but not using micro credit? or
Why do you think it is Grameen Banks Job to reduce poverty but not using micro credit? or

If it is not Grameen Banks job to reduce poverty then who else is capable or should work to reduce poverty?

Thanks chief.

[Zunaid]

Originally Posted by shujan
BBgun may I ask why getting rid of poverty is not Grameen Bank's job? Who's job is it then to get rid of poverty? Thanks.

If I may interject... It is the government's job to get rid of poverty really. Grameen Bank stepped in and is helping alleviating poverty in a section of society that everyone had ignored before. Ultimately, the onus lies not on one organization.

[layperson]

Originally Posted by BBgun
Because of the limelight Yunus is getting. He believes that microcredit by itself can get rid of poverty (or atleast did even a few years ago).
It is not Grameen banks job, I agree. And Prof. Yunus should make sure that Bangladesh dose not get too hung up on his idea. Thats all i am saying.

That is a bad reason as far I am concerned !! Just because Dr Yunus is getting limelight doesnt mean BD will become over reliant on Microcredit. It just doesnt make sense. He and his organization are doing their job properly in alleviating or reducing poverty. Its the other people's job and the job of the government to do their bit.

[Special 1]

Originally Posted by Alien
What you said below is what I felt was wrong.

Yep, he did get a lot of media exposure, but that's only because he is doing a hell of a good job. Unlike our politicians. And because of that, he got the Nobel Prize.

But you said Grameen Bank does not ensure innovation as below.

My point with all the politicians and charity was that, it's not Grameen Bank's job to ensure Innovation. Its the Government's job which they have been ignoring since the country got independent.

I don't know, but the way things are going, it will take either a long time or most likely the situation will keep on getting worse. Has corruption decreased? No. Is our population under control? No.

Nothing spectacular hasn't happened yet that will ensure that poverty will be reduced in our lifetime.
I agree, that's where the Government again comes into the picture million times.
Kono kichur excess bhalo na. Same goes for micro credit. But as of the moment we don't here any bad effects of microcredits. Yes it does put people in debt but that debt is very minimal. But with no proper welfare system in our country, microcredit is the way to go.

I still do not see where I am wrong?
I never said grameen bank is not working.
I never said that governments are doing a great job.
All I sed that policymakers could get overy influenced by this idea of microcredit and employ it wherever and whenever possible. Prof. Yunus himself sed that microcredit alone can get rid of poverty. Sen, When he was in BD this year sed that it would not be possible with only microcredit.
All i was saying is that Yunus should ensure taht Bangladesh does not get overly reliant on Microcredit as there is a chance it might.
Do u think i am wrong in saying that there is a chance that BD will be overly reliant?

[Special 1]

Originally Posted by Alien
He is making sure that entire BD rural does not get hung up. They way microcredit works is by dividing, say a village, into groups who want to borrow. Say a group of 5. Once a person get's the loan, he must repay else other's don't get any loan.

That method keeps it under check and ensure the entire poor community doesn't get bigger "debts", and Grameen Bank doesn't end up with massive bad debt. It's also in Grameen Bank's interest to keep it in check.

And Bangladesh has bigger and more serious problems to worry about than being hung by microcredit. If western world can have billions of dollars in credit card debts with 10% or more interest, and still be financially secure, then I don't see why BD can't handle microcredit debt, which is being kept in check.

I agree with what you sed.
And the sentence in bold is precisely what i have been trying to say. That prof yunus should make sure taht limelight is put on those sectors and not on microcredit.

[Special 1]

Originally Posted by shahriyar
That is a bad reason as far I am concerned !! Just because Dr Yunus is getting limelight doesnt mean BD will become over reliant on Microcredit. It just doesnt make sense. He and his organization are doing their job properly in alleviating or reducing poverty. Its the other people's job and the job of the government to do their bit.

Sure. But it is also his duty to make sure his idea is being properly used.
Have you heard of the Harrod-Domar model?
It was overly used during his like time by beurocrats in different countries leading to its failure. It was being used in ways which violated the key assumptions of the model.
Prof. Yunus has a great model. But like any other model it has its limitations. And i think he is in the best position to point out those limitations to the beurocrats. This is something he hasent done in the past.

[Special 1]

Originally Posted by shujan
BBgun may I ask to clarify your view?
Why do you think it is not Grameen Banks job to get rid of poverty at all? or
Why do you think it is not Grameen Banks job to reduce proverty? or
Why do you think it is Grameen Banks Job to get rid of poverty but not using micro credit? or
Why do you think it is Grameen Banks Job to reduce poverty but not using micro credit? or

If it is not Grameen Banks job to reduce poverty then who else is capable or should work to reduce poverty?

Thanks chief.

It is the governments job to reduce poverty, not grameen banks.

[shujan]

Originally Posted by Zunaid
If I may interject... It is the government's job to get rid of poverty really. Grameen Bank stepped in and is helping alleviating poverty in a section of society that everyone had ignored before. Ultimately, the onus lies not on one organization.

You mentioned two points. One is Government and other one is kinda distributive. May I ask some more detail? which branch of government you think is the best suited to get rid of proverty? If government fails to do so then whose responsibility is it to alleviate poverty? Thanks for your time.

[shujan]

Originally Posted by BBgun
It is the governments job to reduce poverty, not grameen banks.

Very good point! May I ask you the same questions? which branch of government you think is best suited to get rid of proverty? If government fails to do so then whose responsibility is it to alleviate poverty? Thanks for your time.

[Special 1]

Originally Posted by shujan
Very good point! May I ask you the same questions? which branch of government you think is best suited to get rid of proverty? If government fails to do so then whose responsibility is it to alleviate poverty? Thanks for your time.

It is no one else's responsibility to alleviate poverty. If they do it, its great, but if they dont u cannot blame them.
What do you mean by branches of government? If you are using political science definations I would say the executive branch of the government is the most capable of getting rid of poverty.

[BD-Shardul]

Jalil, Bhuiyan, Younus, All were right.

There is no doubt that both Jalil, and Bhuiyan are two of the most corroupted politicians of Bangladesh.

On the other hand, Dr. Younus, speaking truly is an oppressor of the poor folk. Micro-credit is nothing but a weapon to supress them. In that sense, Dr. Younus is also a criminal

May be Forum Members strongly oppose my comment about Dr. Younus, but I have to say the truth.

"Sotto kotha opriyo hote pare, kinto tar mukhomukhi hobar ba take shikar korar shahosh amader thakte hobe."

[Alien]

Originally Posted by mahmudul.alam
Jalil, Bhuiyan, Younus, All were right.

There is no doubt that both Jalil, and Bhuiyan are two of the most corroupted politicians of Bangladesh.

On the other hand, Dr. Younus, speaking truly is an oppressor of the poor folk. Micro-credit is nothing but a weapon to supress them. In that sense, Dr. Younus is also a criminal

May be Forum Members strongly oppose my comment about Dr. Younus, but I have to say the truth.

"Sotto kotha opriyo hote pare, kinto tar mukhomukhi hobar ba take shikar korar shahosh amader thakte hobe."

Duniya te je koto rokom bichitro character ase, Allah Maabud janey.

[Alien]

Originally Posted by shujan
You mentioned two points. One is Government and other one is kinda distributive. May I ask some more detail? which branch of government you think is the best suited to get rid of proverty? If government fails to do so then whose responsibility is it to alleviate poverty? Thanks for your time.

It's Bangladesh Government's job in general to allevate poverty through a proper welfare system or any other way that works. They can create a seperate branch to deal with it but being the most corrupt nation obviously thats out of question.

This government site (http://www.bangladesh.gov.bd/) has a list of ministries in BD Government. Dealing with poverty is more likey the job of either MInistry of Social Welfare or Ministry of Health and Family Welfare.

Answer to your question: If government fails to do it, it's no one else's responsibility. Rather it's the people's responsiblity to kick that government out. Please explain why Grameen Bank should be responsible for getting rid of poverty in BD.

Tader ki theka porse je desher poverty duur korte jabe.

[layperson]

Originally Posted by mahmudul.alam
Jalil, Bhuiyan, Younus, All were right.

There is no doubt that both Jalil, and Bhuiyan are two of the most corroupted politicians of Bangladesh.

On the other hand, Dr. Younus, speaking truly is an oppressor of the poor folk. Micro-credit is nothing but a weapon to supress them. In that sense, Dr. Younus is also a criminal

May be Forum Members strongly oppose my comment about Dr. Younus, but I have to say the truth.

"Sotto kotha opriyo hote pare, kinto tar mukhomukhi hobar ba take shikar korar shahosh amader thakte hobe."

You are kidding right ??

Have you ever heard Dr Yunus talk about his microcredit program? You would know why the grameen bank charges interest on the loans. If you dont I will be happy to explain the two fold reasons to you. But please dont make sweeping comments about a person who is actually doing something for the country while we all are just talking big in an internet forum (me included).

[cricket_dorshok]

Originally Posted by mahmudul.alam
"Sotto kotha opriyo hote pare, kinto tar mukhomukhi hobar ba take shikar korar shahosh amader thakte hobe."

prithibir sobcheye "SOTTOBADI" manus!!!

[shujan]

Originally Posted by mahmudul.alam
Jalil, Bhuiyan, Younus, All were right.

There is no doubt that both Jalil, and Bhuiyan are two of the most corroupted politicians of Bangladesh.

On the other hand, Dr. Younus, speaking truly is an oppressor of the poor folk. Micro-credit is nothing but a weapon to supress them. In that sense, Dr. Younus is also a criminal

May be Forum Members strongly oppose my comment about Dr. Younus, but I have to say the truth.

"Sotto kotha opriyo hote pare, kinto tar mukhomukhi hobar ba take shikar korar shahosh amader thakte hobe."

Konta Sotto Kotha sheita bujhar khomota age thakte hobi. Your believe about micro-credit is utterly misunderstood. Google search on microcredit can clear it up.

[Alien]

Originally Posted by cricket_dorshok
prithibir sobcheye "SOTTOBADI" manus!!!

আর আমরা হইলাম ভেরি ইগ্নরান্ট।

[BD-Shardul]

I am withdrawing what I have said about our one and only noble winner, and Iam extremely sorry for using harsh words words against an honorablr person like him.

Anyway, my sentiment towards Grameen Bank will be remain unchanged, and I still believe that this organisation is an evil in disguise.

[Alien]

Originally Posted by mahmudul.alam
I am withdrawing what I have said about our one and only noble winner, and Iam extremely sorry for using harsh words words against an honorablr person like him.

Anyway, my sentiment towards Grameen Bank will be remain unchanged, and I still believe that this organisation is an evil in disguise.

lol.

Whats the point of withdrawing comments against our honourable Nobel Winner when you will criticise the bank deals with same microcredit?

But anyway, you aren't the only one so don't worry. Jalil and Bhuiyan's criticism is nothing compared to yours.

[BD-Shardul]

Bhaiera,

I want to ask you a question, and you will have to give honest answer:
Have you ever seen any people from your respective village benefited by Grameen Bank? How many examples can you give me? So, far what I heard is that Grameen Bank even doesn’t feel the prick of conscience to capture property of the poor farmers when they fail to repay their loan with interests.

Recently, one of my maternal uncles opened an account in the GB, where he will deposit 1000 taka every month for consecutive ten years. After ten years he will get 2 lakh 40 thousand taka. So, my question, how does GB will get all those money, taken that their interest rate is very low?

And some of the member have expressed that it is not the duty or responsibility of GB to alleviate poverty, rather it is the responsibility of the Bangladesh Government. I agree, but I ask, why GB then uses the tag of poverty alleviation? If it is not their objective, then we will have to agree that there is no difference between Grameen Bank, and other banks of Bangladesh.

Some also believe that Dr. Younus has no self- interest in this Grameen Bank. If not, then how has he become so rich? Doesn’t it attribute micro-credit theory as a changed version of capitalist theory? And why did Dr. Younus get nobel prize for peace instead of getting the prize for his contribution in Economics?

Like me, most of the forum members are expatriates. So, we easily get eye-washed when we see some examples of GB in television. But the smart thing will be go to the rural belts of Bangladesh, and to find out the so-called contributions of micro-credit. I am sure the pathetic stories will come out.

As for poverty alleviation in Bangladesh, I would say that only Zakat system is the only means to solve this gigantic malady. It is a divine system which is completely free from personal interests. All other systems, be it capitalism, socialism, or micro-credit, are the brain-child of human beings, and, therefore, these systems shall never be able to put themselves above the line of self- interest.


And to Mr. Alien Bhai,

You told me not to worry about. I am not worried, as I believe, “ Jodi Tor Dak shune Keu Na Ashe Tobe Ekla Cholo Re”. I am just worried about the fact that GB is repressing our poor people.