BD Batting vs England

[Sohel]

I saw spirit, I saw desire, I witnessed the resurrection of hope and I was graced by an epic victory shared by 160 million and more. Let us turn this victory into the watershed event it needs to be and play positive cricket with passion and desire to match. We as a nation, with our proud legacy and spirit of '71 and everyday life, are more than tenacious and passionate enough to sustain this, and supporting positive guys like Ian, guys capable of nurturing that desire in our guys like Shuhash, is a great way to start doing that.

আমাদের দিন আসবেই ইনশাল্লাহ্ ! ... Le cúnamh Dé, tiocfaidh ár lá! ... GOD willing, our day will come!

[pervez mia]

For my two cents of input... I was directly behind shehzad when he bowled those pearlers and would have bowled most batters and those who are good enough to get a bat on it would probably would have been caught behind. The only other way to have played those deliveries is the Sehwag way which wasn't warranted at that stage of the game. Bangladesh thoroughly deserved the victory as they were the better performed team for about 85% of the game. Walking into the ground on Friday I just had a gut feeling we would pull a rabbit out of the hat. My only negative from the game was the run out of Junaid. That's the second time in 3 matches and in similar fashion. The way he runs between the wickets reminds me of habibul bashed and the lazy nature of bangladeshi cricket in those days... I will never ever forget the way Basher was run out in that infamous test match against Australia which we should have won. I, as do most people, hate run outs because it gives opposing teams a lift and often lift them to victory. For some reason junaid lacks intensity in his running. As for those complaining about mushfiq's batting I thought it was fine and was warranted in the situation noting the req. Rate was still 4.5 when he was out. Bring on the Saffers, I'm not too worried about 'letha' land... I just hope we can smash them and boost our nrr.

Posted via BC Mobile Edition (iPhone)

[Baundule]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
For those of you not privileged to be at the ground or even be in line with the wickets, I wanted to cover off some myths about the BD batting yesterday (only).

1. We did not collapse due to stupid shots. Mushy, Roq and Naeem got world-class deliveries that undid them. Nothing they could have done about any of them - truly super deliveries.

2. Two unnecessary run outs (not stupid shots) contributed to the difficulties.

We have all spent months wanting our Top and Middle order batsmen to not lose their wickets due to reckless shots. Yesterday, Imroze, Imrul, Tamim, Roqi, Naeem and Mushy didn't.

It is always depressing for any coach (batting, bowling or fielding) if he witnesses the SAME mistakes over and over. We DID NOT see those yesterday. Instead, we had players not in a rush, with plenty of overs in hand and scoring at around 4 an over for the most part. Bresnan and Shahzad bowled well and turned the screw.

Instead we saw REAL GUTS from Ryad to come in under pressure of a recall and bat with such authority and calmness. And of course the totally unexpected amazing knock by Shafiul, who is fast becoming one of our most reliable performers in the team.

England were TOTALLY outplayed the entire match save for those clatter of BD wickets in the middle, due to an inspired Shahzad spell, when they had the best chance to defend their total. But BD deserved the win and it would have been a travesty had we not won it.

Criticism is justified and fair where it is correct. Yesterday, I thought we did pretty much everything right in the field and then showed why cricket in BD is vastly improved in recent times. We won a tight match AGAIN, without choking, and against a TOP 4 team as well.

This explains why the mistakes are never analyzed in team meetings. There is no mistakes, just the opposition bowlers are world class and they are always harsh against us. Such harsh attitude of the opposition are hampering the stats of our world conquering 'stick to the same side' batsmen. We should file a complaint in the ICC so that all the bowlers become a bit merciful to us.

[Farhad]

Originally Posted by Baundule
This explains why the mistakes are never analyzed in team meetings. There is no mistakes, just the opposition bowlers are world class and they are always harsh against us. Such harsh attitude of the opposition are hampering the stats of our world conquering 'stick to the same side' batsmen. We should file a complaint in the ICC so that all the bowlers become a bit merciful to us.

Ok, now THIS was confrontational...

[Robi]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
And you are entitled to make opinions known, as is everyone whether they understand cricket or not.

A coaches job is to deliver understanding and knowledge to players whilst removing emotion. Skills are developed through training, repetition and admission of mistakes that then get corrected. That sentence is very important because in cricket not every player is able to do those things.

Emotion had no place in skill development because skill development is process based. That's why when the 'emotional' card is played by fans or players it tends to lead to an EXCUSE CULTURE. And emotions lead to perceptions - the 'belief' that 'such and such' is true or the way forward when in fact logic and processes (the things that are needed for development) are ignored.

So this is not about giving fans the benefit of the doubt. It is understanding why players do such a thing or don't do such a thing. When working alongside and with our players every day you get to understand why they do things and don't do them.

I want to share with you one more thing: the "Five logical WHY's". I believe that to get to the truth of something you ask the question 'why' five times to find it, because in life we layer the truth with excuses and deflections. Here's an example of a made-up schoolboy coach to illustrate a point and show you how the process works....

Why isn't Player A scoring enough runs? Answer: he isn't good enough
Why isn't he good enough? Answer: he cannot hit the ball properly
Why can't he hit the ball properly? Answer: he hasn't been shown how to
Why hasn't he been shown how to? Answer: the coach hasn't shown him
Why hasn't the coach shown him? Answer: the coach has given up teaching the basics

So in this made up example, Player A wasn't doing well enough because his coach has stopped working with him on the things that would make him better: the basics.

If you applied this sort of thinking to the issues to cricket you get to some of the factors behind how to develop the game and players you coach.

It is all about HOW you then do something because 'HOW' is the solution. Fans understandably just regurgitate the scorebook or statistics but not the reasons behind those statistics. This is what you pay a coach for. Just saying "Player A should rotate the strike more", or "Player B should be able to defend world class wicket-taking deliveries" is not coaching. And saying it does not make the Player A or B better.

We all mask our real fears under layers of excuses and emotions. The secret is to confront them, correct them and move forward....

Perfect Answer Sir.

[Baundule]

Here is how I saw those outs:

1. Tamim: Was late to react to a delivery that he should have defended with a straight bat.
2. Junaed: Started late in running and then did not run fast enough. A dive could have saved him. He did not bother to do that.
3. Roq: Out to a good delivery. But when you play international cricket, you expect those one coming. Roq was late in his defense. And missed the ball because of not keeping the bat straight enough.
4. Imrul: Took the first run very slowly and that caused the downfall. When you are taking two runs, you have to run the first one like Usain Bolt. Very basic!
5. Shakib: Unnecessarily risky shot at the context of the match. His presence at the crease was needed and he gave it away.
6. Rahim: No complain about that out. It was a superb delivery and batsmen will feel lucky not to edge that perfect outswinger.
7. Nayeem: same as the Roq case.
8. Raj: He had to support the batsman, not going for SIXes.

Ian's claims are partially true. We did not see any slash out side the off and eventual caught behind. I appreciate that.

But there are certain problems for sure. You can not mask the problems by not playing a certain kind of bad shots for one match. The bowlers did their job and we were never under any rrr pressure at any stage of the match. England bowlers bowled crap at the start and Tamim does not miss those. But the fact is, we were losing from a comfortable position. Shafi played a miracle innings, as Ian has also pointed out. Otherwise we were failing to chase this small total. So, there must be some problems with the batting. As fans we can point out what we see on TV, the coaches have to find those problems out and solve them. Giving it an 'OK' tag does not work.

[Zeeshan]

I was watching Obama press conference where the press was grilling him. They were polite but firm. So my question is why should questioning coaches action be seen as something as being objectionable when the very free leader of the world has to pony up for each and every actions.

Sorry for a bit off topic post, but the very reason I fell in love with this forum was because the platform it creates for both sides of the coin in insightful debate.

[Baundule]

Originally Posted by Farhad
Ok, now THIS was confrontational...

I think, my respect to Ian is no less than anyone else in BC. He is doing an wonderful job with the bowlers. So, chill out.

[mar umpire]

'm not sure it's a matter of coaches not pointing out or focussing on the errors but perhaps our players are slow to learn or follow-roquibul seems to have a deficiency when it comes to covering his offstump, however Shahzad's bowling for a batsman of roquibul's quality was too much-if it was ricky ponting getting out then I may have had qualms but roquibul is no ricky ponting-beggars can't be choosers and we'll have to make do with roquibul until we develop a good enough no 4.

I think we're getting there-we didn't have world class openers, now we have one, imrul i think can get there but he'll have to work hard. We didn't have a world class all rounder npw we have one. We didn't have a good bowling attack-i think we have one now despite what the Indians say, which is more out of spite than anything.

Criticisms can be made in an objective constructive way-we have not been having that unfortunately. At the end of the day we have experts at the helm, we can't let these brainless gits that call themselves the media(the majority not all) or some of the former players who to me seem a bit self absorbed force selection issues. I think Shakib could probably coach some of the former players and the people in the media are there to make money so they will sensationalise and try and make an issue out if nothing. But from the progress that we can see I think we're going in the right direction.

There are many supporters of Whatmore however if you look at our wins against the top nations whatmore's wins relied on exceptional performances from individuals namely ashraful and a couple of mortaza perfromances. The current crop of players have won matches through team efforts and more consistent performances. In my opinion the current coaching staff we have are the best we've had and we should stick with them.

Our role as fans is to support and be the 12th man for the team, throwing stones or abuse won't help-as fans we all want the best fo the team despite our differences as do our coaches. So I guess the key thing is-point out the errors but be patient and look at it objectively-how big are the errors-everyone will make errors and a batsman's error stands out more as it takes only one mistake to finish his innings.

[Tigers_eye]

Imagine the pressure the batsmen were feeling?

[Ian Pont]

Originally Posted by ZeeshanM
I was watching Obama press conference where the press was grilling him. They were polite but firm. So my question is why should questioning coaches action be seen as something as being objectionable when the very free leader of the world has to pony up for each and every actions.

Sorry for a bit off topic post, but the very reason I fell in love with this forum was because the platform it creates for both sides of the coin in insightful debate.

I don't have an issue with ANY questions. I have been on here answering them for SIX WEEKS and I haven't ducked any yet.

Posters have to understand I am not going to criticise players on here, nor fellow coaches. That would be quite wrong.

If criticism from fans is well-thought out, justified and backed up with some logic then of course there is never a problem. The emotional stuff of course is quite different.

So I am a fan of insightful debate. And I understand that posters don't always have the privileged knowledge of being inside the changing room, at nets and in and around the squad.

I am a Man Utd fan and can criticise them from my armchair better than most

[kalpurush]

Originally Posted by firstlane
What have you done here Mate! In BC you are not supposed to go against the flow, specially the coach who is bigger than the Pope and obviously us, the fans. If you desperately feel like expressing yourself you must sugercoat your words. Last night one guy named IanW called me 'Gutless Sh!t' for pointing out the mistakes we made against Eng. I complained to the mods. The respectable mods did nothing but delete my post and that guy edited his post. That is how its done here. Its like our politics where the associates of the ruling party 'baton attack' the opposition to maintain the 'unterrupted progress'. You are lucky to be be given a chance to say something here, so you better praise not question.

Buddy, calm down and let it go...

As myself


Stop false accusations and follow Board Rules.

As Mod

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by Farhad
Ian obviously knows more about cricket than anyone here. Thats not the issue here.

My problem with your post was based on your generalization that bangladeshis were "tough to deal with" simply because a few members here raised perfectly valid (though perhaps slightly misguided) objections to our recent batting performance. These sweeping statements have become a trademark of your posts (like your statement today of how "we" are worse than "the arabs"), and I thought It important to correct you.

Aside from that, I enjoy your posts because you usually demonstrate sound and objective reasoning (as evidenced by your willingness to admit you were wrong disagreeing with coach Pont). More of that please!

i didn't intend on offending you or anyone else. but what i was attempting to say is that we Bangalis are an emotional bunch. its not necessarily a bad thing, but its not always the most prudent approach. i'm just as vulnerable as anyone on this forum. one loss, and we tend to villify our team to no end...one win and we think we'll destroy anyone stupid enough to step on a pitch with us.

as for that "worse than arabs" comment, it was in reference to this idea - not without merit - that Arabs are some beastly race. no doubt, some Gulf arabs are quite despicable...but we (i use the collective "we" here to refer to everyone including myself) have this tendency of dehumanizing everyone else, without first looking in the mirror. its very disappointing to see OUR people attacking journalists and making passes at females. OK yeah, you can blame drunken fans...but com'on, we should strive to be better than that. stoning buses and stealing equipment is NOT something we should condone. if for no other moral reason then because it gives us a terrible image in people who this might be their first and last visit to Bangladesh.

[Ian Pont]

Originally Posted by firstlane
What have you done here Mate! In BC you are not supposed to go against the flow, specially the coach who is bigger than the Pope and obviously us, the fans. If you desperately feel like expressing yourself you must sugercoat your words. Last night one guy named IanW called me 'Gutless Sh!t' for pointing out the mistakes we made against Eng. I complained to the mods. The respectable mods did nothing but delete my post and that guy edited his post. That is how its done here. Its like our politics where the associates of the ruling party 'baton attack' the opposition to maintain the 'unterrupted progress'. You are lucky to be be given a chance to say something here, so you better praise not question.

Amusing post.. really laughed at it...

A question? Do people genuinely think the coaches don't realise what the issues are? That's not a sarcastic question, but a genuine one. I am really intrigued.

I ask because we all get plenty of advice from people about what's going wrong and what needs working on. And of course, we used to play cricket professionally, too (me and Jamie) and coach internationally giving us a personal insight into mindsets at this level.

Yet we do get told a great deal from fans what should happen and what the issues are. So I just wonder if fans think we don't know our stuff or just that because the players make mistakes the coaches are stupid. Again, a genuine question please.

[firstlane]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
A question? Do people genuinely think the coaches don't realise what the issues are?

My question Sir, although you know what really went wrong, how does it hurt when a fan points out what he think went wrong?

[Zunaid]

Time out.

If any of you have issues PM me.

- Admin.

[Baundule]

Originally Posted by firstlane
My question, since you know what really went wrong, how does it hurt when a fan points out what he think went wrong? At best you can disagree with them but why try to stop them? Do you really think you can stop them finding out the weaknesses?

bro, Ian (I mean, Pont not the other one) is usually co-operative in discussing things. The main problem is with some fellow BC members who think not agreeing with him is disrespecting him. Please keep yourself cool; in life we have to live with people with different thought processes, which are always evolving.

[Abirz]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
Amusing post.. really laughed at it...

A question? Do people genuinely think the coaches don't realise what the issues are? That's not a sarcastic question, but a genuine one. I am really intrigued.

I ask because we all get plenty of advice from people about what's going wrong and what needs working on. And of course, we used to play cricket professionally, too (me and Jamie) and coach internationally giving us a personal insight into mindsets at this level.

Yet we do get told a great deal from fans what should happen and what the issues are. So I just wonder if fans think we don't know our stuff or just that because the players make mistakes the coaches are stupid. Again, a genuine question please.

No worries coach, these criticisms are seasonal, as long as the team keeps winning, and Shahriar Nafees keeps playing, the fans will be happy

...ok I made the part about SN up, but it would make me happy atleast

[Zunaid]

I am cleaning up here. If anyone, including mods. are wondering what's happening. That's what's happening.

- Admin

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by firstlane
^^I am happy to make everyone aware at the expense of my membership!

Bro, if you have issues with a fellow member or a Mod, please PM Zunaid and you will get fair and compassionate justice, I can assure you

[Abirz]

Originally Posted by firstlane
^ whats other mods' job then? I raised my issue to a mod and my post was deleted and I got a warning now!

Bhai calm down, it's okay, talk to the Admin in person, tom is BD-Netherland match, why do you wanna get banned now, even I got a warning, it's not a big deal, just talk and solve the issue with a cool head

[Zunaid]

Originally Posted by Abirz
Bhai calm down, it's okay, talk to the Admin in person, tom is BD-Netherland match, why do you wanna get banned now, even I got a warning, it's not a big deal, just talk and solve the issue with a cool head

Thank you.

It's fine to ask tough AND controversial questions. As long as we are courteous, we have no issues. Do remember that. The mods who volunteer here their time are doing it to ensure a free flow of ideas without the discourse degenerating into a cesspool of name calling and pointless bickering.

That's why the forum rules exist.

Now please. Let's get back to your regularly scheduled program.

- Admin

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by Baundule
Here is how I saw those outs:

1. Tamim: Was late to react to a delivery that he should have defended with a straight bat.

Agree, but he is who he is and is likely to get better with time, as he has since his debut in 2007. Let's see if he can convert his usual starts into bigger scores against the Dutch and the South Africans, the way he also wants to.

2. Junaed: Started late in running and then did not run fast enough. A dive could have saved him. He did not bother to do that.

Agree.

3. Roq: Out to a good delivery. But when you play international cricket, you expect those one coming. Roq was late in his defense. And missed the ball because of not keeping the bat straight enough.

I don't blame him at all. I blame the selectors. That being said, I hope and pray he doesn't get exposed to quality bowling, and survives whenever he does.

4. Imrul: Took the first run very slowly and that caused the downfall. When you are taking two runs, you have to run the first one like Usain Bolt. Very basic!

Agree, but you ought to know his odds of survival once he gets past 30 or if we're lucky, 50! Skittish, streaky or whatever, he is what we're stuck with for now and I'll take his runs any day.

5. Shakib: Unnecessarily risky shot at the context of the match. His presence at the crease was needed and he gave it away.

Agree 100%. As the only guy in the team capable of finding the gap, not the fielder, with ease, he needs to do better. The premeditated sweep, especially under moist and dewy conditions, is the type of temptation he can ill afford. That being said, I've seen him learn from his errors and come back strong. I think the best is yet to come from our best player, and once it does, it will come in bunches InshAllah.

6. Rahim: No complain about that out. It was a superb delivery and batsmen will feel lucky not to edge that perfect outswinger.

Agree.

7. Nayeem: same as the Roq case.

Same as my Roq comments.

8. Raj: He had to support the batsman, not going for SIXes.

Seriously bro! How can you expect anything from him with the bat?!

[Baundule]

Sohel bhai, Raj is not expected to win us matches by his batting. He had to play it safe and let Riyadh do the scoring. That's the usual way not to get allout leaving the only batsman not out at the other end.

Liked your witty reply.

[kalpurush]

Originally Posted by Sohel NR
Seriously bro! How can you expect anything from him with the bat?!

Well, Razzak used to bat well as a lower order batter. Seems he lost it...